A green and clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => WaytoGo => Topic started by: WaytoGo on February 17, 2009, 21:10:24 pm
-
I am starting my project,that will include a big fuel cell and all the needed parts, so feel welcome to drop in now and then for guiding me and all of us in the right direction.
I have to buy some seamless ss tubes and can choose between these :
Inner tube : ø32 x 1,5 mm
Outer tube : ø38 x 1,5 mm
OR :
Inner tube : ø25 x 1 mm
Outer tube : ø30 x 1 mm
Both tube sets will give a 1,5 mm water gap close to Stanley Meyers 1,6 mm and with the posibillity to sand them in a lathe to match this gap size.
What should i go for? have to buy some lenghts to get a good price..
Do anyone know how thick Stanley Meyer tubes was? in millimeter?..
Best regards :)
-
1/16 inch or 1.5 mm. don't go any bigger on the gap.2mm or larger is too much.
-
1.5 mm is what you are looking for......jsut follow the .75 inch outside with .0625 wall and .5 inside the spacing with these specifications yields .0625 inches or 1.5875mm
this is what stan used in his tube cells.
-
Lol Hydro ...
You really do have a funny way of writing .
-
Hi,
I do not want to sound like granddade, but as far as I can do math, is the tubeset of Stan with the VIC as follows:
ROD of 0.5 inch outerdiameter
Tube of 0.75 inch inner diameter.
That leaves a gap of 3mm...
As far as my and Hydrocars/resonanceking, we know that with normal electrolysis, 3mm is too big.
Max gap is 1.5mm
I suggest you go with Resonancekings advises.
br
Steve
-
stevie !!!!! mathhhhhhh stevie MATH!!! hahah sorry but you just took the diameter....you just included the left side spacing and the right side spacing.....you need to take the radius!!!! NOT THE DIAMETERRRRR.....your math is right for the diameter now just divide it by 2!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/TUBESSSSS.jpg)
-
i think not.....even his alternator was the same as the above image......something isn't right with there measurements in the independant study report.......think about it.......with a diameter of .75......that leaves a radius of .375...minus their thickness of .35 that leaves us with a radius of .025.......now subtract the inner radius of .25 from .025.........um not possible.....check the independant study report....that measurement is not right....and from looking at the videos and stans patent i would still go with the above image posted......this is truly ideal......but good pointing that out hydrocarz....and i know you wrote .035 which may be a possibility but they wrote .35.....it could be a mistake.
-
The Diameter .75, the walls 0.07 total leaves you with .75 minus 0.07 ID which is .68
Since the inner tube is 0.5000 in diameter you must fit .5000 inside .68
When you Put .5 OD inside .68 ID you have .18 free space. Since you want to center the inner tube then you must halve .18 into .09
Since you're wanting to use .09 which is a Decimal you must then convert .09 into 2.3 Mili Meters using a Decimal to Mili Meter Conversion Chart.
Since The patent stated .35 instead of .035 doesn't mean it was a typo, zero's are invalid and false numbers thats usually void. When you try to use a wall gap of .3 you're right, it is not humanly possible. All though we do know what stan was targeting because of this, we're able to accurately determine his gap size of his 3/4 Od tubes.
A newbie shouldn't put question to a wise dog, as i didn't put question to the guy's when i was told to use a 1.5 mm gap. We have more to go on now then they had then, or atleast some trusted people do. For you to try and prove me wrong is embarrassing for me, its like you're saying my research is not worthy.
i'm sorry but you did the math wrong FIRST OFF ZEROES IN BETWEEN DECIMALS ARE VERY IMPORTANT OR OTHERWISE THEN MICRO AND MILLI MEAN NOTHING.....that statement is absurd......second you did the math wrong......375-.35=.025.....that is the outside radius minus the outside wall...take that and now subtract the inside radius of .25.......IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.....if it was .035 then your math would bne correct.......
also stan states the exact tube size for his VIC set up.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/TUBESIZEDAMNIT.jpg)
it's time the old dog gets out of the shade.
sharpen your sword before you attack my justifications.
-
stevie !!!!! mathhhhhhh stevie MATH!!! hahah sorry but you just took the diameter....you just included the left side spacing and the right side spacing.....you need to take the radius!!!! NOT THE DIAMETERRRRR.....your math is right for the diameter now just divide it by 2!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/TUBESSSSS.jpg)
Hi Kinesis,
well, As you state it like this, it looks like i done something dumn...but....
But the facts as i see are different:
http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol2/circumference.html
Diameter = 2 times the radius
WO1992007861A1.pdf page 9 and page 14
Rod of 0.5 inch outer diameter = 0.5 x 25.4 = 12.7mm
Tube of 0.75 inside diameter = 0.75 x 25.4 = 19.05mm
Total gap = 6.35mm
Devided by 2 = 3.175mm
Gapspace is accoording to this doc of Stan 3mm.
In fact, i have those tubes here on my desk.......and they prove the same.
HOWEVER.....
On page 9 of WO 198901270A1 Stan descripes an example:
The outside cyilinder was 0.75 inch in inside diameter; the inner cylinder was 0.5 inch in outer diameter.
Spacing from the outside of the innersurface of the inside cylinder to the inner surface of the outside cylinder was 0.0625 inch.
That 0.0625 is 1.5mm.........
Well, i eat my shoe, if i know what that Meyer person wants to tell.... ???
br
Steve
-
If ya want to get technical about it Then
Outer Tube OD 3/4 0.7500 19.0500
Outer Wall 0.0354 0.9000
Take your 19.0500 OD in diameter Tube and subtract 0.9000 for the left wall, and subtract 0.9000 for the right wall. This leaves you with 17.25 Mili Meters
Inner Tube OD 1/2 0.5000 12.7000
Take 12.7000 Mili Meters and subtract it from 17.25 you now have 4.55 Mili Meters Free Space.
Since you have a gap on both sides of your tube then divide 4.55 by 2 to get 2.275 Mili Meters.
Stans gap was 2.2 Mili Meters.
I have researched stans tube cell for 2 years, here is some of my work. http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1194&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0&sid=6f22f4d6958be2075163fd047f8cfd4e
Being the fact that i researched the wrong tube gap, i hate to see you repeat my mistake, its not cheap.
Also, Dynodon, you stood 2 foot from stans fuel cell, you seen that the gap was not 1.5 or 1.6 Mili Meters, 2 Mili Meters is easy to determin from 1.5 Mili Meters if you're use to looking at tube gaps.
You also know that stans cell was not 3/4 in diameter but 1 inch, the tube gap is clearly bigger than 2 Mili Meters, i know without a doubt you know this!
Listen to who you want on your tube selection, i have over 2 thousand dollars invested in stans tube cells and 2 years of nothing but tinkering to boot, do what you want.
I'll tell you this, you want beat my production of .600 ML of gas per Minute using a 1.6 mm gap because your tubes want produce any more. Thats 10 cc's per second for all 12 of my tubes, or .83 cc's a second per tube where .83 cc's x 12 tubes is 9.96 cc's a second or close to 600 cc's per min.
My tubes was 6 inches tall and 1 inch in diameter,,, and im telling you now I dont care how long you make your tubes your not going to beat my production with that gap!
Your after atleast .800 cc's a min per tube where .800 x nine tubes is 7.2 Liters Per min, Cram that up your tubes!!!
Dont like my math,, open up the test of evaluation and do your own math... I've seen stans gap.
Hi Resonanceking,
Thank you very much for guiding me in the tube jungle.. ;D Yes it can be expensive to buy wrong type of tubes..
I think you are saying we are not into ordinary electrolysis here, so thats why the gap must be bigger...
so a gap size on 1,5 mm or less will produce more gas but use more amp with a "dead short condition" and we want to split water with only voltage pulses so maybe i will go for a gap in the 2-3 mm range..
Your fuelcells looks great and is a great inspiration so thanks to you for pictures and visdom.
Best regards
-
Hi,
I do not want to sound like granddade, but as far as I can do math, is the tubeset of Stan with the VIC as follows:
ROD of 0.5 inch outerdiameter
Tube of 0.75 inch inner diameter.
That leaves a gap of 3mm...
As far as my and Hydrocars/resonanceking, we know that with normal electrolysis, 3mm is too big.
Max gap is 1.5mm
I suggest you go with Resonancekings advises.
br
Steve
Hi Steve,
You dont sound like a granddade LOL... I am open to all point of veiws.
I think i will try a bigger gap than i was intend to and see if i get lucky.
Thank you for your help
Best regards
-
Thank you to Dynodon, Kinesisfilms,Dankie and the rest..
Please feel free to discuss tubes so much you want here.. It is interesting and even funny.
Best regards
-
I've been thinking about this, and I think I might just use some SS rod, .75" dia, 3-4" length, and drill a hole in it to so specific size, then take several other 3-4" long rods, and machine them down on the lathe to various diameters, to give various spacings, from .025" to .125" and see what happens, then the center rod will be solid... which I think would be just as good if not better, considering the nature of a conductor is that all the charge lies on the surface... no reason to have an inner surface at all. And then to change the spacing I can just switch out the center rod. Stan made a variable spacing cell... but this would be easy enough.
Comments on that approach?
-
here's about a 2.5 mm gap where i used about 28 volts applied to the cell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we2qS-mnE5k
I just cant see a small gap doing what this gap can, 2.5 mm is all i had so thats the reason for that..
i'm not sure if its 2.5, more like 3.5,, its a big gap i have here. Outter tube 1" inner tube 1/2, so its pretty big. To big. anyways thought id share what it can do.
You are on the right track
There is no doubt in my mind anymore, this is over 1,5 mm!!!.... more like your 2,5 mm.. Stan still surprises me... this is one important piece... :D
And inner tubes looks thicker than the outer tubes on this picture...
-
Since The patent stated .35 instead of .035 doesn't mean it was a typo, zero's are invalid and false numbers thats usually void.
It's quite obvious stan did not use a wall thickness of (7 MM, HENCE (typo .35)) but .035 Which is around 1/32 of an inch which is half the size of 1.5 Mili Meters, Thats quite thin isn't it, almost paper thin!
so at first it wasn't a typo when i said it was.....then after being proven wrong now it's a typo.....THANK YOU FOR AGREEING WITH ME THE SECOND TIME AROUND......make up your damn mind.
YES IF IT IS A TYPO THEN YOUR SUBTRACTING SKILLS ARE VERIFIED.....
here is the actual sizing of the alternator tubes....with the TYPO like i said.....and which now you have realized.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/ALTERNATORTUBES.jpg)
once again like i said the only way it will work is if it is a typo.....but nope HYDROCARZ DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT SIGNIFICANT FIGURES.....ZEROES DON'T MEAN ANYTHING AND CAN BE DROPPED.....pfffft.
oh wait now YOU Realize it......the above quotes are classic.
-
WO1992007861A1.pdf page 9 and page 14
Rod of 0.5 inch outer diameter = 0.5 x 25.4 = 12.7mm
Tube of 0.75 inside diameter = 0.75 x 25.4 = 19.05mm
Total gap = 6.35mm
Devided by 2 = 3.175mm
HAHAH STEVIE YOU DID IT AGAIN!!!! REALLY IS THIS HAPPENING??? ALRIGHT LET'S END THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL
take the .5 inches diameter multiply it by 25.4 to get 12.7mm
take the .75x 25.4 = 19.05mm......
divide 12.7mm by 2....6.35mm
divide 19.05mm by 2...9.525
now subtract......the wall space from the 9.525-1.5875=7.9375
subtract 7.9375-6.35= 1.5875mm
STEVIE IS IS SIMPLE ALGEBRA.....IT'S CALLED ORDER OF OPERATIONS.....YOU CAN'T SUBTRACT OR ADD BEFORE MULTIPLYING AND DIVIDING.....ORDER OF OPERATIONS.....THIS IS 5TH GRADE STUFF......
BUT SERIOUSLY THIS IS SUCH A COMMON MISTAKE!.....
no worries stevie you just messed up with order of operations. (http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol7/order_operations.html)
ANYONE ELSE STILL QUESTION THE TUBE CELL SIZE?...i will gladly help you out.
THIS IS A GREAT POST THANK YOU STEVIE THIS WAS PROBABLY A COMMON PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE!
-
I recommend a 1" outer tube with a wall of .064 or .065, and a inner tube of 5/8ths of an inch, this also appears to be what stan used as well... Like i said, it is best not to go crazy and order all of them, buy a sample... If you need a source for SS tubing shoot me a pm, i don't think you'll find a cheaper place then where i get mine.
very true.....i bought all 18 of mine......not necessary......
-
Hi Kinesis and Waytogo.
First to Waytogo: Sorry for this tube discussion. I can move it towards a different topic, if you want.
Kinesis,
I like this discussion with you. Hope you do the same. Lets try to figure out what Stan wanted to tell.
If i take my rod with outer diameter of 0.5 inch and if i take my tube with inner diameter of, in my case, 0.82 inch, is this the result.
As you can see, i have here some pictures to show you what i see.
innerdiameter of my tube is 20.9mm
Outerdiameter of rod is 14mm
Gapspace is 3.3mm
-
Forget the gap,just use anything from 1/16,(1.5mm) to 3mm.It will work with both.But remember the important thing is the capacitance.A lager gap will change the capacitance.When calculating your capacitance use the area of the outside tube to calculate it.You will get a more accurate number when using an online plate capacitor calculator.My 3 inch tube set of 1/2 in. and 3/4' in .with 1/16 in .gap measures 2nF.If you measure your tubes with a meter with air only,and run the online calculator with air asthe dielectric,you will see it very close and it works well.Then just change the dielectric to the value of water,Stan uses 78.54, and run again.That will be your capacitance.
Don
-
Forget the gap,just use anything from 1/16,(1.5mm) to 3mm.It will work with both.But remember the important thing is the capacitance.A lager gap will change the capacitance.When calculating your capacitance use the area of the outside tube to calculate it.You will get a more accurate number when using an online plate capacitor calculator.My 3 inch tube set of 1/2 in. and 3/4' in .with 1/16 in .gap measures 2nF.If you measure your tubes with a meter with air only,and run the online calculator with air asthe dielectric,you will see it very close and it works well.Then just change the dielectric to the value of water,Stan uses 78.54, and run again.That will be your capacitance.
Don
Hi Don,
For your info, i do have have both tube sets. So, 1 with a 3mm and a with 1.5mm
You are right about capacitance, but there is one fysical issue here.
As far as i done my homework, and as far as Hydrocars did his tests, i can say that you never ever get 5 gallons an hours vapourized
with a 1.5mm gap. That is fysically NOT possible.
Try to put a variac on this little tubes for one hour.
The flow will stall inside because of the bubbles inside.
Another point is that a bigger gap pulls less amps and that would be an advantage in use with the VIC, if i may believe Stan Meyer.
br
Steve
-
if i take my tube with inner diameter of, in my case, 0.82 inch
you just said it yourself!......hahah so your tube has an inner diameter of .82 inches an equals around 3 mm........now remember the math you were doing earlier???....which was for .75 inches for an outside diameter and you still got around 3mm......now you can see you were doing the math wrong......for an outer tube of .82 inches 3mm is absolutely correct....but for a tube with .75 inches and an inner diameter of .0625 it will come out to 1.5mm.....just remeber you can't subtract then divide ORDER OF OPERATIONS you have to divide before you subtract.....simple rules.
-
First to Waytogo: Sorry for this tube discussion. I can move it towards a different topic, if you want.
The outcome of this discussion can benefit us all, and i like to get this as correct as i can, so keep it going Steve & Co
I wonder if this tube set will be a good choice :
SS 304 seamless tubes :
25 x 1 mm for the outer tube
18 x 1,5 for the inner tube
And if my math is correct this will give a 2,5 mm gap... but should i go for a 3 mm gap??..
The lenght of the tubes will be 350 mm or somewhere between 300-400 mm or ca. 12 -16 inches not decided yet.
Stan could have so much as ten tubes in the tank on the buggy since there is ten rows of diodes on the big controller box... just a thought.
You see my plan is to run my car on this... ;D
-
You seem awfully confident if you think this will run a car .
-
You seem awfully confident if you think this will run a car .
This is just a part of it.
-
well sadly stan never ran his water fuel injector with a 2mm gap......nor did he ever use a vic for a 2 mm gap........so if you plan on just making a tube cell to apply your alternator to......then by all means knock yourself out but that is a dead end route......stan even knew that......
-
well sadly stan never ran his water fuel injector with a 2mm gap......nor did he ever use a vic for a 2 mm gap........so if you plan on just making a tube cell to apply your alternator to......then by all means knock yourself out but that is a dead end route......stan even knew that......
Hi,
This is just an early phase, so please relax my friend.
I am only replicating his first dune byggy system, and will not use a water fuel injector at all...
I think the reason Stan changed the system later to the water fuel injector system , is that it was a too expensive, and unpractical way to retrofit cars that way.
Only the redi-line generator cost a fortune at that time...
But it worked am i afraid.
So if you believe my idea was to connect an alternator to some tubes in a tank, then i can understand your concern...LOL ;D
-
Hi ResonanceKing,
Thank you for caring.
I do agree to your math.
I said earlier i would like to try a 2,5 mm gap, however i found on AQUAPULSER.COM about the "Meyer Excitors" that the spacing between his tubes was 3 millimeters.
I guess i will try 2,0 - 2,5 and 3 mm.
I got a problem, the stainless container i ordered is lost in transport or the company is just bullshitting. I dont know and is trying to find it out.
I need this to make the liter pr minute and the pressure tests, so i hope i get it soon.
When i get it i will personally tig weld a flange with M6 or M8 threads around it for the unbraco srews holding the top lid, mount safety valve and manometer, and one valve for the water input and one smaller valve for the gas output to carburetor.
Yesterday i ordered some electronics for the circuit to pulse my modified alternator.
This and more will take time but i think it will pay off somehow...
Kind regards
-
This company made the Stanly Meyer replica tube cell for Aquapulser
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.conesusmachinetool.com/image/Hydrogen_Cell_007.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.conesusmachinetool.com/prod/CMT-Inventor-3-axis-CNC-column-mill/Energy_Products.html&usg=__4SvTNbBB_R-hdiHcvi3zjFICcPI=&h=600&w=800&sz=63&hl=no&start=6&um=1&tbnid=mpQZT_1K5S6avM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtube%2Bcell%26hl%3Dno%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:no:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GGLL_no%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.conesusmachinetool.com/image/Hydrogen_Cell_007.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.conesusmachinetool.com/prod/CMT-Inventor-3-axis-CNC-column-mill/Energy_Products.html&usg=__4SvTNbBB_R-hdiHcvi3zjFICcPI=&h=600&w=800&sz=63&hl=no&start=6&um=1&tbnid=mpQZT_1K5S6avM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtube%2Bcell%26hl%3Dno%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:no:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GGLL_no%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)
-
I said earlier i would like to try a 2,5 mm gap, however i found on AQUAPULSER.COM about the "Meyer Excitors" that the spacing between his tubes was 3 millimeters.
I guess i will try 2,0 - 2,5 and 3 mm.
Remember that the electric field you'll have is strongly dependant on the gap. if you double the gap you'll have a field that is only 63% the density than you had before. As far as i have understood the whole thing the electric field and possible em-waves are the key of the technology.
-
Thank you for your replay and insight Haithar!
I have tested gap sizes sevral times since i typed those words, and i have changed my mind..
1,5 mm is now my favourite gap and will be used in the big cell i am planing to build.
:)
-
Stan's Demo Cell had a 0.090" Gap, which is 2.286 mm
In the Fuel Gas patent he says 0.0625", which is 1.5875 mm for a 4 inch cell
In the Circuit Patent he says 0.125", which is 3.175 mm for a 3 inch cell (the famous 5 gallons of water split per hour)
In the TB for the injectors he states from 0.060" to 0.010" which is 1.524 mm to 0.254 mm
The quenching circuit comes into effect at 0.025" to 0.015" which is 0.635 mm to 0.381 mm, or smaller
I wont show you any math just to keep things simple.
Suggestion for buying tubes: Stan uses thin wall tubes for the demo cell, outer was .750" OD, 0.035" thick, inner was 0.500" OD 0.049" thick, these are standard sizes you can buy, yes it was a typo in the drawing, he simply left out a zero, and for the inner and outer tubes, they weigh about exactly the same. Also, thin wall tubes are cheaper, and more likely to vibrate in the audio range.
-
Hi Donald,
Thanks for your reply sir.
What you say, makes sense.. but i have no experience with that mysterious viberations within the tubes i have seen been discussed here...
Another reason why thin tubes is the best alternative when building a big cell for keeping the weight lowest possible.
I have seen SS 304 (A2) is getting a bit rusty after long use, so i would replace with 316 (A4) quality instead.
You may collect rainwater in a plastic barrel for testing with low mineral content for lower amp draw.
I bet the gap is important, but we can finetune the resonance with the VIC so it matches any gap...when we got it fully working i guess.. :)