A green and clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => Sebosfato => Topic started by: sebosfato on February 06, 2016, 05:38:08 am
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Water fuel cell = liquid combustible batery
Meyer says that the water fuel cell work by the electic polarization process= electricity applied in a sequence of steps to break the water by polarization manipulation.. .
How to make water generate electricity?
well i know of 3 ways
one is to use a water as mass and move a generator...
another is to use magnetohydrodynamics actually using this water is not the energy source but hydrogen is generated as energy output...
the problem with the second is that to get any apreciable amount of voltage a giant magnetic field and prohibitive design problems prevent it from being practical..
Another way to instead of moving the medium, to move the fields... so that it impart the voltage output of the cell without moving the water....
I have done some tests having all the cells connected in series, i realized that the geometry of the 11 cell cavity maybe is thought in that way because it forms a circle and the inner electrode of the next set is in the same or near circunference or smaller than the outer tube of the next cells..
charges aways goes to the outermost circunference... if you apply az charge to the inner electrode it will go the outer electrode in one manner or another... thru the dielectric in form of moving ion or at external circuit...
applying a positive to the inner electrode will create a positive ion that will later be neutralized giving its charge to the outer electrode...so the charge walks... if the electrodes were connected to each other the charge from the inner electrode will automatically go to the outer electrode leaving he water therebetween with zero electric field... however the potential of the inner electrode follow the potential of the outer electrode disregard of the electric field being zero inside...
the field is not actually so zero as there is a metal inside or a dielectric this is atracted to the inside of the outer electrode making some of the field lines to bring this electrode to the same potential... charges reach oposite charges or groudn... a piece of metal has a certain mass and so some electrons that can give up for a while untill it get chaged to not allow more electrons to go away..
electrochemistry is a wonderfull subject in that when we put metal in water it arranges its electrons in a manner that it creates a potential for its own.. because of the ability of the material to hold its electrons or not hold them.. for example when aluminum get oxidized in a sodium hydroxide solution who is oxidizing it is the water molecule liberating hydrogen molecules and electrons making its potential to drop in relation to another metal like copper so copper on the other side will also suffer a reaction making this electron to generate a second current that will generate oxigen on its surface too.. so it will get oxidized and water blue.. if you charge it with a current it can light a led for few min..
this is something i dreamed and did happened one year after in the end of 2008 in italy... i droped some pieces of copper wire that was without insulation, a piece of aluminum and attached wires to it.. eureka than kkk
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the problem with electron extraction ....
water = H2O = 10 electrons , 10 protons , 8 neutrons
I have asked the question before , what type of gas people are expecting , monatomic ,diatomic , + ionized or - ionized gas or ?
if electrons are extracted , then there is the ratio of electrons to protons to consider as a reality .... if they are removed then its a + ionized gas
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Ive seen literature with neutral hydroxyl gas at some point in time... It even seemed as Stans brother insinuated liquifing the gas.... allways a good thing when you find literature that proves a theory or even simply inspiration to save it. ..copy and store it...everything isn't allways around forever.
Even how ozonated water changes the bond angle seems to have been forgotten .
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.......yes , the problem .
Neutral means equal number of protons to electrons , which means there is no electron extraction .....
thats why I left the question mark .
and thats why I have previously asked the question of what gases are the projected end product ?
monatomic , diatomic , + ionized , - ionized OR Neutral gas
electron extraction AND neutral gas = not happening
electron extraction can only lead to +ions ...... IF electrons are extracted
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well massive, actually in my point of view of it working as a generator it must bea sink and source of electrons otherwise it would become so positive that no electrons can keep coming out of it or the gas output would be ionized taking the power away... maybe is the objectve but my point is to prove that electric fields can be used to influence electrolysis... this is my first point... seems pretty obvious..
the second would be to generate electricity out of it,,,, but for work as generator first we need to understand how it could be arranged to get that...
the way i see it i already described before... is all cells connected in series forming a closed loop...
than somehow manipulating the potential of the water, i can see the fields arranged in a way as to they could produce work...
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yes newguy also other things in water will also mess around with the bound angle... even as we polarize the bond angle we create a inward force at it... that shoud induce that sort of vibration and that can make an effect too..
just occoured something to me meyer said faraday could not discover the polarization process because of the short wires connecting the cell to the baterry...
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if we add a capacitor in parallel with the diode what would be the effect?
well depends on the size... but from what i see if the capacitor is much greater than the cell capacitance a dc bias will be formed.. but ac would be more effectively applied to the cell too.. .
the capacitor will allow the back high voltage pulse to go to the water but is restricted in current til it charges up...
just a though it become a voltage doubler too...
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sebosfato , my post is not criticism of your first post . Im referrng to electron extraction / SM generation from water.
water H2O = 10 electron , 10 proton , 8 neutron > neutral gas total = 10 electrons , 10 protons , 8 neutrons
no electron extraction
the only gas output possible is + ionized gas
the next problem is
Hydrogen monatomic = 1 electron , 1 proton
Hydrogen diatomic = 2 electron , 2 proton
no electron extraction can be taken or it ends up being H+ ions or Protons!
this is not hijacking , SM has his EE theory in his diagrams
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this is where people get confuse my friend meyer used the classical theory not anything new... he just knew it more profoundly than us...
HAve anyone ever tried making an arc thru water?
I found that avalance effects can occour in water caused by voids that forms when huge electric fields are applied... basically the water eletrostriction effect as molecules allign voids are created with low pressure.. creating a mean free path where electrons can be accelerated between collisions...
the voids are smaller than air bubbles but bubbles also can contribute to this...
when we have a bubble or void the electric field will have a jump because of the dielectric change
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a partially filled cell would have a impedance jump at the level of water air..
since the cell is a transmission line the waves going into the cell when see a different impedance they partially reflect... i imagine it would create a higher voltage at the end tips of the cell..
when a coil is disconnected it creates a spark given the magnetic field is being converted to electric force to take over air resistance and keep the current flowing...
how else can we convert this magnetic field to voltage?
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a partially filled cell would have a impedance jump at the level of water air..
since the cell is a transmission line the waves going into the cell when see a different impedance they partially reflect... i imagine it would create a higher voltage at the end tips of the cell..
Meyer did have a diagram showing a cell which was half filled with water. This way the top half of the cell acted as the Gas Processor stage. If there is a higher voltage at the end of the cell, that would provide an argument for polishing the electrodes. It's known in the field of fusion reactors that electrodes with mirror surfaces can withstand higher voltages without arcing, for any given spacing. But can a cell act as a transmission line when it's much shorter than the wavelength?
when a coil is disconnected it creates a spark given the magnetic field is being converted to electric force to take over air resistance and keep the current flowing...
how else can we convert this magnetic field to voltage?
We can also break the magnetic field. Or perhaps cancel it suddenly, with a reverse signal.
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maybe the waves must be small to transform impedance at the water TL...
water cell is around 2.7 ohm caracteristic impedance if view as a TL i calculated it somewhere... coax calculator for impedance https://www.pasternack.com/t-calculator-coax-cutoff.aspx
without water it become 24ohms
Horvath also mention the cell is 75% filled with water
regarding the magnetic field i agree if we apply pulse to it it will collapse... problem is that a magnetic field cannot be created instantaneously... so it collapse in electric form changing the magnetic flux
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i´m doing my fracture cell again improoving it actually with the knowledge i have today about metalization...
i used a graphite piece to metalize the plastics such that it can be used as a dielectric correctly...
i would like to have a biger vaccum chamber such i could do copper or aluminum vapor deposition... this would be the ideal... the idea of using a metalized plastic you dont get air between the electrode and plastic interface so air is not ionized... corona destruction is so prevented,,, although there is some resistance it allow the dielectric constant of the plastic to show correctly since it make a better contact and impeed the air from interfere,,,
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Hello
i was reading some old posts from the past 2010 about the ecc and i found that actually we thought of some very interesting things back than... today of course i have a better understanding and posture to look more clearly at it..
specially regarding some experimental results we faced about the cell showing a negative spike after power disconnected..
i did a course on hydrogen fuel cell technology in 2012 and it was very interesting and i learned how the PEM works and is assembled with the electrodes and catalyst... well the triple layer resulting is the resposible for the ability to extract an electron from the hydrogen atom and bring it to the oxygen thru the outside circuit while the proton travel thru the electrolyte...
the question i always posed to the teacher was if the was not a way to increase the potential of the cell by applying external fields.. they always arg the impossibility of this...
well in my opinion it could be that meyer found a way to create electricity in a manner as consuming part of the hydrogen output making it give up electrons in the system while receiving a huge electric field that drive the proton and thereafter the electron thru the circuit.. not that to much of a voltage is needed but the question is how to apply and sinc the power into and out of the cell..
i have now more understanding of how to use scr i will try to make some drawings
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even meyer say it is a resonating circuit and self sustained oscillation occur until there is no more water
in a cell the hydrogen is ionized by a catalyst making the electron free to move...
the the water cell the hydrogen is generated at the cathode... where negative is applied..
while the fuel cell the hydrogen split at the anode into a proton and electrons.. the oposite of electrolysis.
if we were able to charge up the cell in parallel with a coil with dc than the cell was sequentialy subjected to a reverse electric field this electric field would force the protons back thru water leaving the electrons at a potential they can be discharged..
hydrogen is atomic inside the double layer and as it is desobed it gives up its electron easily...
the key maybe is to generate electricity out of it..
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a fuel cell has a limitation that arise from the fact that hydrogen eletrode is negative and so atracts the protons to itself so there is a kind of reverse electric field there limiting the cell operation... as we close the circuit the electric field goes to the external circuit allowing the electrons to be discharged but as there is movement of charges there is apotential drop according to a polarization curve...
theres 3 factors limiting the reaction... so there is a matching impedance where maximum power could be obtained from it.. and its not of course the point of maximum efficiency.. as the load aproach a short circuit the current is maximum but voltage is zero so low power if current is low the voltage is maximum so max efficiency..
hope it help anyone think about it.
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What is the purpose of the EEC?
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i was considering if it would not be possible to amplify the energy by using part of the gas output as source of electrons but creating such a system where this electrons are forced to discharge in a potential diference greater than the 1.23v lets say it could be 123v... the energy output would be 100x greater.. so if we feedback this the system can become selfsustained oscilation somehow..
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as in the case of aluminum and copper that i showed to you the water fuel cell is a capacitor too but the problem being its a capacitor that has electrochemical interface in water...
this electochemical interface canot be ignored.. . the double layer capacitance is a function of the dc voltage across the cell being a greater voltage resposible for a greater capacitance since the double layer get compacted.. in the double layer there is a gigantic electric field as the voltage drop is in the interface being maybe 100A.. i remember there is 50kv of electric field there..
this is resposible for a voltage drop of 0.5 v
i have done tests with resonance and high current making the current 90 or so from voltage is possible to have a high current to pass thru water at the minimum possible voltage. in the case were 1.44v fo electodes were steel...
question is that the efficiency was still under 100% since the coil heats a lot and capacitors and the diodes too... although up to 100kw is possible to be there acumulated.. easily.. depends only on the Q factor of the circuit...
100kw mean lot of enegy energy is force...
if we could get the high charge of the gas and coherently discharge it than simply we would be extracting energy out of it...
moving charges inside mean moving charges outside...
if hydrogen is ionized and give up its electron in a region where the potential is low negative it will want to flow to the circuit but it would only do so if the charge of the hydrogen ´proton charge could be discharged elsewhere...
the main problem with applying high voltages to an electrochemical cell is that the electrode attract certain amount of charges to it and above certain voltage this charges are able to readly discharge thu the electrolyte this makes the process of adding high voltage problematic if we apply such slow pulse that can lead to ionic conduction..
if we charge up the cell we create a collection of hydrogen and oxygen at the electrodes... if we short the cells the oxygen and hydrogen will discharge as electricity provided all the requirements..
Meyer describe a way to constantly aplly an increasing force to the molecule... the only way i see of doing it is to let the molecules to atract each other during some steps of the process...
doing tests here and more tests is all i have left...
i´m fascing a severe crisis and will be working here instaling some air conditioners to make up some money... hope for better days...
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Where are you at in your testing? Are you at the point of making gas or at your circuit function or what?
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My cell does not generate gas if there is no ppm....in the willing of breaking the bonds i thought this would be the first aproach to go..
but i´m trying also sometimes to put some kinds of different electolytes even tap water but its too dirty
here we have fluoring and chlorine on water also many other deposits... tap water is over 100ppm some times.. sometimes as low as 80ppm
i can deionize to 0ppm on the meter... i need to find a better way to determine how bellow 1ppm it goes
i will probably make a graph to determine from the resistance measurement of the water..
I´m thinking that maybe we could use the current information to determine how fast the curent flow in water such as on copper electons are very slow... water having much lower conductivity would have faster electrons.. this could help to predict the resonant frequency of water cavity..
the only problem is to give some parameters like viscosity of water and relativistic correction.. but i guess knowing the area the distance and the current and volatge is already possible to determine the time it takes for a charge to cross the gap... of course all charge does not need to cross the gap to current for flow there is many charges in series flowing like a snake eatingitself
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we we do apply a positive to the plate the oxygen will form at it... the negative side of o2 being attracted to the electrode and dc power supply...
if the power supply is disconnected the oxygen is free to go if the cell is shorted the cell discharge its constituent gases as current... here the oxygen and hydrogen keep atracted to the cell walls...
in my point of view there is something relating here i´m not being able to find...
the main idea is to get gas but if we get e energy is already nice..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KM5bq0O48o
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how is the drift velocity or time important for us if i keep telling that as you take electrons out of one electrode you must add electrons to the other side?
well if we start to create ions with greater than 1 charge it would suffer a greater acceleration...
to create population inversion is required that the molecules arent in thermal equilibrium, it must be disrupted...
the kinetic energy of a molecule is dependent on its mass and velocity.. there are some degrees of freedom also meaning the molecules also casn absorb energy by rotating and stretching vibrating.. this is measured as heat...
when we apply a high voltage to one of the electrodes the electric field would cause ions to move and consequently a current to flow on an external circuit... ions movement as there is a resistance and dielectric constant there create a voltage drop..
if sodium hydroxide is in water it ionizes the water molecules transforming it into free ions.. we can pass a current because at one electrode as oxygen is liberated and sodium try to get plated to the stainless steel, but as its more stable on water it ionize another molecule liberating hydrogen and stay in the solution.. .
there is other like potassium hydroxide that would do the same...
acids would go the other way and the reaction would be at more anodic... correct me if i´m confusing please..
the greater is the number of charge carriers the less is the speed achievable by the ions..
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"Resonate frequency 25x the input " into google comes up some stuff you may like to read.
Let it expand your knowledge....may the force be with you :)
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i found something about negative resonance freq is that what you mean?
maybe in my country the research dont display the same though..
thanks for the input =)
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today i had the cleaver idea of thinking how to calculate a coil that has the same energy stored into it that a leak capacitor connected to it... i was remembering the conservation of charge and how it goes with momentum and energy when dealing with tork
basically the leakage current is the energy in the coil and the capacitor is charged because there is voltage across it...
basically i ended with L=(V^2*C)/(I^2)
the voltage at the cell is the voltage applied less the voltage drop on the resistance of the coil as they are in series..
so capacitor resistance thells the current at the coil
for example if the coil could dump its energy to the capacitor the voltage would increase how much? twice...
well if we simply wanted the capacitor to discharge to zero volts than we would need a coil with a such value that in parallel with the capacitor its leakage current is equal to the energy at the voltage applied to thecapacitor..
but hey meyers said he would double thefrequency keeping the capacitor charged,,
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Is this picture a good representation of the step charge?The capacitor is step charging beyond the applied voltage..you can see the voltage starting at 25v then ending at 147v between pulses.
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Hey Seb, just went thru a lot of old papers and came across WO 00/25320 ....its Eccles energy generation patent.... I think you may have mentioned him before....I have it in my printed research pile so I guess I thought it was important.
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Eccles have some interesting claims so i decided to check that too... i have tried it once in 2011 but i reassembled its pulsing circuit and the fracture cell i wanted to see if i find at least some point where water heats i dont know.. of course we aways hope it would work but is not easy, all this years teached me that..
so every time i do something i try to understand what is going on before and after testing..
simulation is a good way to know what is going electricaly but simulation is never going to give any gas... remember that... sim and test not only sim...
i frequenly simulate ideas before building..
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Eccles have some interesting claims so i decided to check that too... i have tried it once in 2011 but i reassembled its pulsing circuit and the fracture cell i wanted to see if i find at least some point where water heats i dont know.. of course we aways hope it would work but is not easy, all this years teached me that..
so every time i do something i try to understand what is going on before and after testing..
simulation is a good way to know what is going electricaly but simulation is never going to give any gas... remember that... sim and test not only sim...
i frequenly simulate ideas before building..
yea...ive made several tests myself.... one interesting test about field alignment was a 60 or 61 flat plate cell....they were separated with plexiglass in blocks of 7 cells with power connections at each block...what was interesting was looking in from the top and actually seeing how the ion movement was effected with different power connections and how connected correctly the the fields passed thru the plexiglass not effecting the unidirectional movement of the ions...that's an interesting test...rain water of course is a neat test being lower on the PH
Flat plate cells were also hard to get current to pass with a saturated electrolyte solution until the plates were conditioned it had its own amp inhibitor...lucky to get 5 amps into them until conditioned....lots of tests with those and im still very skeptical being able to out produce them but I am hopefulll to say the least.
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the point of high conductivity is not exactly related to the mAximum amount of electrolyte... as it pass above the sweetspot it will increase the resistivity of the solution...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wien_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye_length
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debye%E2%80%93Falkenhagen_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer_forces
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yea there is a point of having a saturated solution...something about equilibrium if I remember right.I think a good study may just be how a saturated solution of KOH and specifically how Bob Boyce's cells out performs everything as of date.Ill read this stack of papers of our conversations from back then and see if he explained that part of it to me in any detail.
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reading about i found that the potassium hyroxide is more conductive than sodium...and that is possible to add up to 1kg of it per liter of solution..
http://www.chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/genchem/sstutorial/Text11/Tx113/tx113.html
http://www.physiologyweb.com/calculators/molar_solution_concentration_calculator.html
http://www.physiologyweb.com/calculators/percent_solutions_calculator.html
http://www.physiologyweb.com/calculators/dilution_calculator_molarity_percent.html
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Well we know Stan states his cells will run on all rypes of water...why not simulate salt water and see how that amp restriction part works...seems only logical to me.
Uhm...mayb not being its a high impedance circuit...idk
heres another file I think you will like
wo 2004/059662 a1
I read the papers I mentioned with Bob,that was a conversation putting together his rev.e board ,he did mention using DC as a carrier wich came up with some good stuff searching google about it.
Im going thru parts now to add on to my circuit :)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqjn3mup1So
I think too that meyer could use any water... but maybe he needed stainless steel for a reason..
i dont know much about bob i found some little evidence of what he did..
today i´m finishing a dry cell and the fracture cell... i was also planing to make a 2 isolated cell device similar to the one you see in my older videos.. but of course much better designed..
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Well we know Stan states his cells will run on all rypes of water...why not simulate salt water and see how that amp restriction part works...seems only logical to me.
Uhm...mayb not being its a high impedance circuit...idk
heres another file I think you will like
wo 2004/059662 a1
I read the papers I mentioned with Bob,that was a conversation putting together his rev.e board ,he did mention using DC as a carrier wich came up with some good stuff searching google about it.
Im going thru parts now to add on to my circuit :)
Very nice patent...how is a 2hz radio wave?
it makes lot of sense.. since i found other patents that claim speed up of decay of nuclear waste by electric fields..
is also consistent with john quincy st clair claims on some of his patents...
the curvature of space time is what drives his propulsion theory... also he says he can create wormholes...
good one