A green and clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => Sebosfato => Topic started by: sebosfato on July 26, 2015, 15:39:52 pm
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Meyer inspired me in many ways and what he mostly impressed me is the regard about doing the right question.
The right Question indeed as he show in the New zealand is what happens when water molecule is form?
it just to important to you to know haha
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Another question is related to a test i did and already commented about
if we charge one inside electrode with high voltage why would a voltage appear across both the electrodes?
the answer is that the outside electrode is in a situation of lower energy since greater radius lower electric field would emanate for the same number of charges if all they go to it thereto a lower potential energy than the first case.
the difference in this potential energy is the voltage apearing across the cell
isnt that amazing?
this mean that placing a charge into a point in space sets an electric potential field that just like the potential inside the coil varies along its lengh..
this is potential energy
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Meyer inspired me in many ways and what he mostly impressed me is the regard about doing the right question.
The right Question indeed as he show in the New zealand is what happens when water molecule is form?
it just to important to you to know haha
Dear Fabio,
I also take that question with me thru my life.
Ask the right question! You might get some answers.
My question to you:
To be able to charge the chokes, you must have a closed loop circuit, is it?
Or are they charged by the magnetic field of the primary coil?
cheers!
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Hello Dear Steve
Yes i believe for the choke to collapse it needs to charge first and it may be done by the primary and in series by action of the secondary over the system or just by the action o secondary in series if the choke is not coupled..
in my analysis when we first apply a unipolar voltage to the inner plate for example basically there is a voltage drop across the cell and this may be a combination of movement of the ions and polarization of the dielectric... this voltage will than theoretically drop after some time... this is the maximum time its worth applying...
i have the impression that the diode perform the same function as a microwave diode... allowing to charge the capacitor in one direction and blocking the electrons when the collapse of the coil comes allowing the development of high voltage that propeles the electrons from the filament thru the magnetic field.... ..
the difference in stan circuit is that he adds a coil between ground and the the diode in my view.. and that makes the diode don't need to be so high voltage rated since the coil will kind of help keep it forward biased during operation..
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I was thinking intensively about it and came to the following question..
if i use my pulsing ckt that has a diode with a huge resistance in series with it across the primary... although i achieve a high voltage it will be for very short time and will fall exponentially like... so kind of the useful part of it would be limited some kind.
i was thinking that maybe i should indeed reduce the turns of the primary and than reduce also this resistance too,,
this will have the effect that the impedance at the primary will be smaller... so higher current at lower voltage applied..
but the voltage will be higher...
my last primary has 20turns.. for the next set i plan to make less...
for example...
if i apply 12v and have a 30:1 factor i would only get 360v at secondary.. not 20kv... even if the high voltage will be developed in resonance first i need to find it in water ..
so if i make a 300:1 factor like having 1200 turns secondary and 4 turns primary.. than there would be really 3600volts.. for 12v input
3v per turn is not that much depending on the frequency,,, i could put up to 8 amps easy... hardly up to 15
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We also should not forget that the chokes need a closed circuit to be able to discharge.
So, the cell MUST have a state of conduction.
Meaning, the watermolecule must be alligned.
By current....
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What if the `water fuel cell` act as a generator when meet the right conditions? i mean behave like a generator that is exited by the voltage potential... it kind of must create a field that is in phase with the coils to get advantage of it... would it be possible that this is what meyer was talking about?
i have a few questions for you...
why the molecule is attracted to the voltage zone?
does it move toward the voltage zone?
why?
isn't the oxygen the bigger molecule? with 8 protons 10 electrons (when in molecule form)
why would not the protons of the oxygen be attracted to a negative field more than the hydrogen side of the molecule?
A voltage field will apply a force in any free charge in the water.. will set up it into movement... the movement of this charges will be to rearrange to try to achieve the lowest energy possible. so we cannot simply put a resistor across the cell and want the energy to come off.. as the voltage would simply jump thru the resistor and the field would become minimal inside..
the question is how to use voltage to induce this current thru the cell and take advantage of it, without consuming the voltage and even getting gas out of it?
Meyer talk about restricting the current to allow voltage to take over in a dead short condition...
well voltage will take the easiest path.. for example you cannot keep pulling electrons out of the water indefinitely... but if water has too much contaminants it may act as a ground... however if we kind of charge a water volume the charge will kind of stay in the liquid... but it will aways try to balance...
if you take an electron out of the water bath it become positive charged and soon start to get harder and harder keep pulling electrons out of it... because the positive bath attracts the electrons to it too..
if you get out is because of
at certain point one proton also takes on an electron from somewhere (other electrode) and neutralize (deionize) at this point theres nothing else holding the electron that was trying to reduce the field near the electrode and it get discharged.. this is amps being consumed...but the bath charge keep increasing up to where the other electrode also achieve the same or near voltage level..
in my experiments the purer is the water the higher was the voltage i could put into it.. and the voltage that apear into it..
as i´m saying this voltage being smaller mean that theres more amps being consumed... more ionizable species.. not much interesting..
the question is if there is a collection of protons on one side of the cell and a collection of negative ions in the positive side of the cell could we get maybe? a reversed voltage if we charge and disconnect the cell from the source?
is there a net charge?
sure not if we simply charge it at near ground potential
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in this patent this guy present something like a structure that allow the current from the ions to discharge while allow the apply of high voltage unipolar pulses..
https://www.google.com.br/patents/US20100126846
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was reading Bill Beaty info last night about "static electricity" which you may find interesting .
http://amasci.com/static/what_is_static.html
http://www.amasci.com/emotor/stmiscon.html
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yes good links i saw it before... thanks for pointing for all...
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Q : what would happen if you had a glass 1/2 full of water and a glass 1/2 full of electrons , then you poured 1 glass into the other ?
remembering water is self ionizing all the while......
purely theoretical and obviously out side of electrolysis
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water won't accept any electrons... so they will just be there polarizing the molecules... its not going to equal distribute like ions would in my point of view... maybe some will compensate and create free positive ions there too... not sure
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what happens if you charge the inner electrode to 1000v and than charge the outer electrode to 1000v?
would the frequency double from the reference across the electrodes?
the teory says that the potentials will sum so the potential of the outer electrode influentiate the potential of the inner electrode too...
if we charged the inner electrode 1000v and it created for example 100v potential diference across the electrodes than we charge the outer electrode the inner electrode will be at 1100v since there was already 100v but actuallly it should be higher...
what if we use a coil with open end?
ronie said to us that he re-discovered it by accident right?
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what exactly and where did Ron said that?
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somewhere a year ago he said he put it to work than after he burned his coils he never got it to work again,,,
somehow also from what i understood the resonance of the wires when open end it causes a reflection of that wave toward the source.. it will happen for a termination of higher impedance than the impedance of the choke... if it was shorted the wave also reflects but it does like an inductor does.. with reversed polarity... a pulse of reverse polarity would make the voltage zone to decrease its magnitude... even if it comes at the other electrode...is that correct?
I have a really good news...
i thought my 40kv probe was burned... it kind of don't show 40Mohm as before.(it never did i confused).. ... the new differential probe has 40Moms between inputs and 20Mohm between inputs and ground.. this 40kv probe has 1000Mohm resistance... its output impedance is 1,1Mohm that when in parallel with the resistance of a 10Mohm input dmm makes exact 1Mohm... so the total resistance is 1GOhm
the only reading of resistance i have at the 1000:1 40kv probe is 1,1Mohm across the leads that should go to the multimeter..
i was planing to use this probe to monitor the voltage potential of the cell while the other probe would be connected across the cell to get the potential diference.
the nicer thing about it is that i just discovered i can connect it to a oscilloscope too but the division would be 2000 instead of 1000...
the problem is it would need some compensation to get the right wave form.. my model is the tt hvp40 from testec like this on farnel anyone has ideas of how to make a compensation ckt for it?
thats because the oscilloscope has 1Mohm input impedance and together with the 1,1Mohm output impedance of the probe makes the impedance around 580k so it won't be 1000 to 1 anymore... im thinking to make a bnc connector with a trimpot to fine adjust the probe voltage reading...
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i was just thinking about if i need any compensation i would use a regular oscilloscope probe connecting the 1000/1 probe... actually it will become a 2000 /1 probe when connected to the oscilloscope... i have tested and its very precise at 200v or so... its going to be good working with both probes at same time so i can monitor that the new probe won't pass its rating during testing...
i have thought a lot about how the probe works before starting put it to work so i can understand it well its effects and its limitations...
i found that this 20Mohm resistance from each input to ground will somehow polarize the results in a certain way so i must include it now in the circuit i´m analyzing to see its effects on it...
the other probe has 1000Mohms so its impedance is very high to cause to much interference...
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somewhere a year ago he said he put it to work than after he burned his coils he never got it to work again,,,
somehow also from what i understood the resonance of the wires when open end it causes a reflection of that wave toward the source.. it will happen for a termination of higher impedance than the impedance of the choke... if it was shorted the wave also reflects but it does like an inductor does.. with reversed polarity... a pulse of reverse polarity would make the voltage zone to decrease its magnitude... even if it comes at the other electrode...is that correct?
I have a really good news...
i thought my 40kv probe was burned... it kind of don't show 40Mohm as before.(it never did i confused).. ... the new differential probe has 40Moms between inputs and 20Mohm between inputs and ground.. this 40kv probe has 1000Mohm resistance... its output impedance is 1,1Mohm that when in parallel with the resistance of a 10Mohm input dmm makes exact 1Mohm... so the total resistance is 1GOhm
the only reading of resistance i have at the 1000:1 40kv probe is 1,1Mohm across the leads that should go to the multimeter..
i was planing to use this probe to monitor the voltage potential of the cell while the other probe would be connected across the cell to get the potential diference.
the nicer thing about it is that i just discovered i can connect it to a oscilloscope too but the division would be 2000 instead of 1000...
the problem is it would need some compensation to get the right wave form.. my model is the tt hvp40 from testec like this on farnel anyone has ideas of how to make a compensation ckt for it?
thats because the oscilloscope has 1Mohm input impedance and together with the 1,1Mohm output impedance of the probe makes the impedance around 580k so it won't be 1000 to 1 anymore... im thinking to make a bnc connector with a trimpot to fine adjust the probe voltage reading...
Thanks for the explanation.
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Hey Steve,
i opened my 40kv probe and added a bnc cable to it together with the other cables... this way i can connect the probe to the oscilloscope and the dmm at same time... the only problem is when i connect to the oscilloscope it become a 2000:1 and on the multimeter the voltage show is some less than half what was before,,,
I also found that my osciloscope with this probe is picking up a lot of noise.. so i decided to feed the osciloscope with 240v instead of 120v so i can try to neutralize the ground of the osciloscope
here in brazil we receive in our homes 3 cables basically 1 neutral thats is grounded at the input of the house... and two phases that forms 240v between them and 120v between them and neutral (ground)
the problem is that the power plugs with 3 plugs here are missused in the sense that the ground is usually cut off and not connected at all and so we usualy have one neutral and one phase for comomn house app like tv and refrigerator... for the shower we use the 240v and for more heavy applications...
I decided than to switch all my measuring rig to 240v so i can re-ground the neutral close to my rig and have all the 3 pins of the power plugs in all the equipments correctly connected..
is that correct?
can it cause a problem? ground loop?..?
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Well
new probe burned....
i was just starting to work on my new grounded system but i got news that my power suplyu of the new probe burned...
i was so angry that i decided to ignore any warranty and open it to fix it today!
in the manual it says it needs to work with only this power supply... so before open i tried to get another one similar and tried... the power supply that came with the probe is rated 300ma 9v 2.7va i tried a 200ma one and it dont turn on the probe (of couse i checked the polarity before try)
i have noticed that it was heating up a lot... the probe and the dc power sypply... when i noticed it stoped working it was pretty hot...
so in the end i opened the smal power supply and found that the windings are ok... i just burned a component caled AUPO 115C 2A 250v
the problem of it burning i guess come from the fact that its rated at 230 v not 240v so i should probably add a resistance in series with the primary or something
i would like to hear any ideas from you
seems a termal fuse... well i will substitute it for a normal fuse and it should go ok now... althought is a good idea something that turn it off if the temperature rise too much thought...
the resistance of the primary seems to be 1kohm
if at the secondary it has 300ma at the primary it shouldhave 230v/9 =25 times less current... something like 12ma
so if i need to get 5% less voltage into it i would need to add 1kohm resistor in series... is it correct?
will it work?
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You burned up the Pintek DP-15K Differential Probe 35MHz 15kV? I simply don't understand what type of problems you are having as with these probes you just plug them in and change the settings on the oscilloscope to match with the probe output settings. Say for example if you have it on the x100 setting then you make sure the setting on the oscilloscope is also set at the x100 setting. If you put it to the x1000 setting on the probe then again you set the oscilloscope to the x1000 setting. So I don't see just went wrong with your probe to the point where you would then burn up a new probe that I have been using for over 3 years now without incident.
You already know my feelings on this and you go and break the dame thing?! As I look out at those working on this technology I can help but to get a total sense of hopelessness as the people I see trying to solve this technology simply aren't up for the task at hand. Then you go and violate the warranty instead of doing the right thing and shipping the probe back to the company to try and get a new one. These aren't the actions of a smart man but of a complete idiot! Not a single shot of the waveform you are getting to your exciter array. Nothing! When all you had to do was hook the dame thing up to it! And you wonder why people like me get so upset all the time? You force people like me to work in total isolation as even when you are given the same tools to work with you haven't the smarts to be able to make use of them so that we can finally compare apples to apples. I can't even begin to put into words my disappointment in all of this as not a single picture of the waveform you are placing on your exciter array came from this endeavor.
We don't open up a precision instrument and try to fix it as the percent error they give us mustn't be compromised as if it is compromised then it is useless in the world of science and any data you would then gain from it would be simply tossed out. I don't make up the rules I just follow them. I follow them so that any work I do choose to show other scientist will be acceptable in their eyes as they can follow my work if they so choose to do so with the same percent error calculations and/or expectations. So, now we are back to comparing apples to oranges and I am simply not in the mood to be wasting my time in that vein approach anymore.
You and I simply couldn't even compare one apple together as not a single photo was produced from which we could have actually compared notes came of all of this money being tossed at the problem so that we could finally be able to compare apples to apples together. Oh, well no one can't say that I didn't try to help.
Take care,
TGS
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Hey Tgs, its the programed obsolescence... it was only a thermal fuse inside the transformer (power supply) (the idiot here found out)
simply its rated for 230v and output 9v 300ma... here in brasil we get 120v or 240v rms from the plug... so the problem is i was hiting it at 10v over its rated voltage.... every other equipments is rated from 90 to 240v today...
basically inside the black box there is a transformer a full bridge rectifier and a 25v electrolitic capacitor... the voltage regulator may be inside the probe body itself...
as its supplied with a litle overvoltage its heating a litle over what its normal and so the transformer as heats up lowers the saturation bmax thereto driving the trafo into a saturation that increases the heat rapidly and the fuse blows... probably would be nicer from pintek side to add a ptc instead...
so i didnt change anything... for now i will just add a small resistor and monitor how it comes..
but i want to get in contact with pintek to know if i can have another one rated for my country wall voltage... but really i wont wait anymore...
i have a even more shoking news.. just after the probe burned... i burned my old oscilloscope... kind of bad luck minute.. i connected it mistakenly to the 240v before switching the damn voltage switch and forgot it... when the probe suply burned i turned it on and the fuse made puff...
i opened the old oscilloscope and found the problem...i will need to substitute a transistor initially... (i found a rotine for repairing this oscope.. ) more time wasted...
the good news is i added a trim pot to the 40kv probe before the bnc cable gets out of the case...500kohm and i was able to make a fine adjust of the reading... using the other probe while it was yet working as reference..
i´m a litle sad now... it took my peace for a moment... uff
yes man you helped a lot and i thank you for that...
just the things are as they are... hope theres no one making vodoo of me.. hahah
ps my grounding system worked really nice... now the noise level is very very lower... and i get no electric shocks when touching anything...
this was the good side of the learning event of today...
The question in my mind is how to create a ground loop?
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i tried ading a 330ohm resistor in series with the primary the voltage drop across it is 18v... the voltage going into the power supply is 245vrms!
still heating up a lot... its output is around 17 volts with probe turned off and 5,7v with the probe turned on...
i guess would be better to contact pintek and ask them...
i noticed now that the voltages indicating in the 200x and 2000x are different now...
i´m thinking about geting a 200ma fuse and make a 9v dc regulator to feed it already a clean dc with enough current but still protected..
inside the probe there seems to be an amplifier with output 50ohm impedance.. .so it must be heating inside because of it... transistors like to heats
the problem is the power supply should provide a limited voltage current source to impeed it from blowing under abnormal conditions...right?
i really not planing using the warrianty of this so soon.. i prefere to get to know whats inside and how to make it work.. .
my osciloscope too for example... it burned... even if i have to find what burned..
i´m thinking here... if i´m not able to change a simple transistor inside it and make it work again i´m not going to be able to make a fuel cell work.... its important sometimes for me some challenge..
if i cannot make my own power suplies... either..
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I'm sorry for all of your bad luck but it leaves me all alone again. The way the differential probes work is they are not actually hooked up to a ground at all but are floating which is a must for measuring this technology as the VIC sets up an isolated circuit that is actively seeking a ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDLWQFgJ1uU
I learned this well when I was working on the 8xa circuit as if you hook up the normal probes from the oscilloscope it will trip the home circuit breaker. A good friend of mines told me how to fix the problems I was having and suggested that I pick up a differential probe. Once I did all of my problems where over and I was able to keep on going with my work while being able to see what it was I was doing. I knew that I could not make good measurements only using one of the probe leads and if I wanted any help from my college friends I had to present them with quality work.
I hope that you are able to get the needed tools for the job as if you don't your out until you do. Sorry to hear all of this bad news as it just means we've lost another inventor taking an honest look at this technology.
Take care and I hope that your luck takes a turn for the better.
TGS
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Man this probe is fantastic, for the while it worked i could testify that, unfortunately i had this supply problem but hope to solve it tomorow... i was doing many many stuff to be able to work with the probe in the correct way than it happend... tomorow i will go to a place they sell many different types of powersuplies i will try to ask them why this one burned... maybe i can have one rated for my house voltage... another thing that i noticed is that here we have 60Hz and the powersuplly was rated for 50 hz too... driving it with a higher frequency changes the power and impedance of the transforner this should reduce some little the output voltage for the same current consume for instance...
i just thought of something... maybe i could make a sort of regulation of the input voltage using a simple stepdown transformer connected in series to buck the source voltage a little to feed the transformer with a lower voltage.... i would give it a try....
at the probe it tells it want 9v 200ma
the power supply was 9v 300ma 50Hz 2,7va rated, the only ground of this probe come from the oscilloscope thats why i had to improove all the ground here...
i was thinking i could make a 9v regulated power supply and add a 200ma fuse or something... or maybe a current limiter...something that restrict the current in case of short...
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Here in the US we have 110-120 volts at 60 Hz and I have not had a problem with the probe since I have brought it. But you brought a different one than I suggested for you to buy and got one that, for me, wasn't compatible with my oscilloscope as my scope has only x10, x100, x500, and x1000 and I think x5000 so it wouldn't be compatible with this one: https://www.globalmediapro.com/dp/A2JGB4/Pintek-DP-30K-Differential-Probe-30KV-50MHz/#lg=1&slide=0 which is why I didn't get it and why I didn't recommend it for you to get it.
Sure it will read voltages up to 30kv but if I had to search for and buy a new scope that would be compatible with it that would have cost me a whole lot more money. 15kv was good enough as it can really read around 17kv safely and the working voltages for the exciter array falls between the range of the 15kv probe which are 10-20kv according to Stanley Meyer. That is why I suggested that probe to you as it doesn't have compatibility issues with the scopes we use. Perhaps you got a faulty power supply or something but you violated the warranty so there is not much that can be done now as the company more than likely will simply wash their hands of you. But since you don't know what they will do please give them a call as I am sure they don't want their reputation to be hampered by someone making videos of them selling products that don't work.
I have two differential probes from them and both of them work fine. I was able to read around 8kv with the 6.5kv rated probe but had to finally put it away and buy another one that could read higher voltages as the working voltages for the exciter array exceeded it's voltage capabilities too greatly. I have another than can only read about 1000 volts that I first got when I was working on the 8xa circuits off of ebay. It's nice but I quickly reached it's voltage limits as I learned more about the technology. I still will make use of it as I need it's low voltage reading accuracy for the primary side of the VIC transformer and for circuit troubleshooting. They are nice tools to have as they block out a lot of unwanted noise and the readings are clear as my old probes would pick up the VIC and overhead working lamps voltage spikes.
I hope things work out for you as these are some needed tools that are a must if you want to be able to see what it is you are sending to the exciter array by the VIC transformer and pulsing circuitry.
be well,
TGS
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HEy man thanks for the nice words.. i luckly got an oscilloscope that is compatible with my probe... it has from 0,1 to 2000 probe automatic scale. its called minipa mo-2062 its actually from china from a company called gwinstek... its 60MHz so its ok... actually they told me it can be upgraded to 150Mhz paying a litle tax for the update of the software.. but for me that was ok for the price.... so its luckly compatible with my probe... and also with the other high voltage probe i had... when i looked up the manual it become a 2000/1 when connected to the oscilloscope too.
actually you could use any oscilloscope but you would be needing to do math all the time and that really makes the job a little harder.. but this digital oscilloscopes are very interesting so they help a lot showing numbers and all...
if working at this very high frequency its needed to add termination of the cable... some oscilloscopes has a switch for 50ohm for example... this probe has a 50ohm output impedance.. . than in this condition if i understood well the manual it will become a 1000:1 probe...
i´m going to construct a current limiter with a lm317 with a 6 ohm resistance for it restrict to 200ma as required by the probe and will try to add a lm7809 too for stabilizing the voltage i guess the probe wont work as hot as its going.. but i´m still worried on how to transform my 245v from wall into 230 the power supply needs...
my probe came with this power supply for 230v did yours came already for 120v? i mean the wall plug that has a transformer into it... ???or did you used it anyways into the 120v ?? mine is not automatic is just a transformer inside and it has not got a switch..
i´m going down town to get some parts right now... i will try to fix the old oscilloscope and make this probe get on working with safe too be able to start my work with the coils... i´m going to post a foto when i come back..
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i just fixed the old oscilloscope...now there is waves on the window.. (yeaahhh)... basically i had to change 1 simple transistor bu406 0,5$ it was the power supply.... now the chalenge is to fix the second channel first and second scales that i burned few years ago... probably just a 1Mohmresistor ... now its open lets see what comes out... feeling like Mcgiver....if i had to send for repair it would have costed something like 150$ for fixing... more or less how much i pay for it 5 years ago.. .
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The power supply they sent me has a switch in it for 120 and 220 volts. Like I said I haven't had a problem with it since I've purchased them. I hope now you understand the need for such tools for being able to view just what this technology is actually doing as without these tools one simply can't tell just what is being sent to the WFC from the VIC as that is an isolated circuit. Introduce a ground to that isolated circuit and it's going to take it.
All those people in the past telling you that you didn't need to get a differential probe where just out to keep you from being able to take a look at this technology properly either out of ignorance or by being paid to spread misinformation about this technology so as to throw you off the correct path.
As for me working on this forum I make no promises as I simply don't like it here as to me it's a place where the innocent are punished and the guilty are rewarded. Plus when they are given the truth they are too quick to toss it out as worthless trash never even giving it a try to see if it works that way or not. This technology is very resistant to pure logic and thus must be solved by way of experimentation and most on this forum simply don't have the needed tools and hardware to be able to perform experiments on this technology properly. To make matters worse these same people that have nothing to work with want their word to be taken over the word of someone that is actually performing experiments.
Good luck with your efforts to get the needed tools for the job at hand,
TGS
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Hey Tgs thanks for answering about the power supply... i got a heat protection device to substitute the one in the transformer of mine power supply.. if it heat over 130C it open like a fuse but than when gets cold it turn on again... i bought a step down transformer 110+110/15+15 and summed the primaries and subtracted the 15 volts in the secondary and feed to the transformer... it was 228v rms.. at input
the output of the power supply that came with the probe is with open circuit 16v feeding with this 230v (the output of secondary is ac 10v unloaded without the rectifiers... )
and drops to 3,6v when connected to the probe...
basically i think that the probe already came with something burned inside... its consuming already 600ma and heating up without even turning it on... when i turn it on it consumes 760ma
so i guess there maybe something burned inside the probe that is causing this 6 ohm resistance shorting the inputs of the probe for dc...
TGS could you do me a favor answering me a question? Does your probe or the power supply gets warm during operation?
my probe is working at the 2000x range but in the 200x range it show wrong values... i bet that as its shorted at input the circuits are not receiving the proper voltage to make the compare...
thanks again
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something that is easy to have happened is that if the people here in the costumes may have burned it for me just to make me happy
can you see how unhappy i´m i spend the time to learn how to use it perfectly before start using and when i start its was already burned before start... since it warmed up this same much from first time...
the problem was not the 245 volts anyway...
i tried to call pintek but our english was little hard to understand each other..
i sent them an email with the photos and i´m trying to get with them some authorization to open the device without loosing the warranty so i can try repairing to save the money and time and pain in the * of having to send it back to china and wait for it to be repaired or something,,,
my set up was pretty done to start the testing..
i believe that probably the voltage regulator may have failed in short mode and so the probe is still working with the residual voltage...
the easiest way for it to happen is to reverse bias the voltage regulator if it don't have a protection diode to prevent this... this would be my best guess.. the guys at the costumes may have turned it on and than off and after touching the input shorting the terminal.. bad design if its true.. .
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To answer your question, no mines never get hot not even when it is 110 outside. If you turn it in they will not try and fix it and will more than likely just give you a new one as the cost to fix them is greater than the cost they mass produce them at.
Yeah, it sucks getting something that doesn't work correctly right out of the box been there before. All you can do is hope they honor their warranty and give you a new probe. Now the waiting begins.
As for me I am busy putting together my next attempt at reaching the ionization threshold. If all my corrections work this should do the trick now, but I have been here before thinking that I finally got it for something new to go wrong so I must keep my enthusiasm in check.
Take care,
TGS
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maybe customs used a powerful X ray to check contents and induced damaging current ???
I see Brazil has different supply , 2 or 3 pin , also Single Wire Earth Return circuit too in rural areas . some NZ have this .
it could be your house needs to be checked to be sure your equipment will be safe , maybe you need to use variac transformer for all your plug ins so they are all standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wire_earth_return
ps: edit is not working
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Hello guys thanks for the kind words..
Its very possible that they used a powerful Xray.... i look at the bills they secure supply of 220 up to 252v... this is if you use 2 phases...
here we have the 110v too which is actually 120v here... but its one phase and one neutral and this neutral is tied up to ground... so i found out that to use professional equipment here the best way is using a isolation transformer and a ground or use 220-240v and the neutral just using the neutral in the middle pin of the power cord... here 110equipment is usually left ungrounded.. everyone takes out the ground pin since most wall plugs has not got the hole for it...
for example my old oscilloscope was in that condition before i did this change in my wall plugs... the ground pin was not connected and this created a huge noise level.. i mean the ground must be in the middle of the voltage you receive otherwise it become unbalanced..andd create noise...
now the selling of this off norm ac wall plugs is even prohibited... so from now in new houses the plugs will all have 3 holes..
i have found also that if i consume 220v instead of 110 is good for the electric company because its loaded evenly on the both phases...
not sure if will be any cheaper anyway...
(is sometimes problematic posting links was that your problem massive?)
lets hope good for the warranty my friends! i was hopping to do something good up here too...
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...... no , I couldnt write :( the links just lined up and my words disappeared.
I was refering to brazil 2 or 3 plug hook up , the diagram is 2/3 way down on the first page .
the other link , S.W.E.R has a diagram of house hook up with iso trans phase and netral/earth 2 wire .... maybe what you have , I dont know
*SWER is another Tesla design , next step up from 1 wire no return , and wireless
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Pintek allowed me to open the probe... it was a zenner diode causing all that heat... i´m waiting the parts names to be able to substitute it...
its very beautiful inside, many ground shields.. and all the parts Ics has the name scratched so is impossible to simply substitute ... all components are smd except for some capacitors and the high voltage resistors... aways learn much opening pro equip...
the oscilloscope this weekend too, very nice too see inside how those buttons work is really magic;
Finally i got a peace...
hey massive i never saw this SWER here always at least one phase and one neutral... maybe the
SWER works only for the high voltage part over huge distances... =D Tesla rules
first page didn't opened for me..
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i found the solution for the probe problem...
It was a very huge flaw from pintek side.... they designed in such a way that when you connect the power supply what regulates the voltage for the probe is a zenner diode 10v 1w but its connected to the power supply having 16vdc( that has 10v rms with output non connected... when we have the rectifier and all because the peak to peak the capacitor charges up to 16v dc)... so what happens is when the probe is off the only thing still loading the power adaptor is the zenner and so it heats up when turned off because of this... and what happens...16v 10v zener 1ohm resistor? peak in the amps range...
if you woudl connect the probe to the power adaptor beforeconnecting to the wall would be more safe for example because the voltage would never reach 16v but still should not be this way.. pintek informed me that it should output 10vdc (how in world a unregulated power supply puts out 10vdc unloaded and 9vdc 300ma with load? impossible)
this is a major flaw in the design just as i suspected...
i changed the diode and i could only solve the problem of it overheating while turned off by using a lm7809 voltage regulator before feeding the probe... this impeed the zener to dissipate much and burn if anything goes wrong
i hate programed obsolecence
i tested the circuit now working on the 245v rms straight from wall
it goes like this the power adaptor trafo works at maximum 50 C and the lm7809 works at 70C without heatdissipator max... i tested first with a dummy load of 33ohms... than with the probe and all went really fine..
i´m going to add a heat sync for it and i´m ready to go
also will add a protection diode on the lm7809 and a capacitor after it so it can work little easier (maybe the missing of this capacitor makes it heat more to acomplish the task...
now i need to assembly it back to see if it will really work well
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It endeded up like this.... WORKING now! ihh yeahh
hopefully now i can start my tests...
Thanks for all
The probe now gets only little warm after some long use.... but its from the ics... and its normal
the power adaptor stabilizes at 60C temperature after long operation... this is the temperature of the ambient near the voltage regulator inside the case...
Now i can plan to make my measurents...
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Whats the difference between both?
Who they are, what they do, how they live... you are going to see now
a capacitor is formed whenever we have two electrodes or even if we have a single elecrtrode, also other forms of capacitance exist like double layer capacitance ex
we say we charge a capacitor if at one plate we extract charges and at the same time add charges on the other side of the capacitor... this will create a force inside connecting the charges inside the capacitor... the reason you can discharge a capacitor is that when you short it outside the charges find a closer path to reach each other and so the force goes into the circuit forcing the current to flow.. this is the same current that flows thru the cell... as it happens because of this same atraction forces...
now what if we have two electrodes one inside the other lets call inside 1 and outside 2
lets say we charge 1 with 40kv dc so it will have current going to ground and charging up the capacitor... till the point where it starts to force the positive ions across the elecrtolite and get their charge to the other electrode.l.. (this is the same action that would discharge the capacitor if there was negative charges on the outer electrode) i´m talking about the positive ions depositing their charge into the outer electrode neutralizing and exiting as gas.... this will raise the potential of the outer elecrtode til the point where it should achieve a higher voltage than the electrode 1... and miss so much elecrtrons that the positive canot stabilize more.. at this point maybe the elecrtrode 2 can be at 50kv and therefore there could be a kind of oposite electric fields inside the cavity... the high voltage positive field of the electrode one wants elecrtrons but so do the electrode 2 so basically current should go to zero somewhere...
as water is a dielectric as you raise the potential of one point electrode 1 ex it forms a second potentia at the other.. if we sent negative charge to the exciter 2 the circuit would need to do much more work into first zero up and than raising its potential...
the fact is polarization creates the force into the dielectric to oscillate the elecrton clouds of the water molecules and move ions...
charge up a capacitor polarizes it of course too but if electrons are there as we know there will be leakage
I believe this can generate energy somehow...
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Well what if all the cells in the 11 cell circuit had its dc power supply?
can you imagine all the wired up in series and each having a vic connected to it? only at the inner electrod of each set... (inner and outer since they are wired up in series...)
yes they would form a closed loop.... what would happen in this close loop under this conditions?
i guess maybe thats why the cell was hooked up in series and maybe thats why he planned to have a vic for each set... as evidences shows... some would say he never used all them but i bet he did
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now i just realized that creating a star diode bridge is possible to allow voltage to take over in a dead short condition and produce work....
its the simplest way to use only one vic to drive all the cells in parallel while they are all in series connected...
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Imagine a waterfall
the gravity is the force here... the high is the potential and the water flowing is the charge or ionsflowing...
you need a source of water and the potential for it to exist
what if you could close loop the waterfall?
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anyone who can design an electronic version of a water ram is doing something . once started theres only output , NO input energy spent , its all gravity and water hammer . ZERO running cost 8)
http://www.greenandcarter.com/main/products.htm
if water IS only electrons , protons and neutrons , then that is whats pouring out the end
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anyone who can design an electronic version of a water ram is doing something . once started theres only output , NO input energy spent , its all gravity and water hammer . ZERO running cost 8)
http://www.greenandcarter.com/main/products.htm
if water IS only electrons , protons and neutrons , then that is whats pouring out the end
yes massive thats the idea, meyer claim it would work without input for 90 seconds..
once the reaction starts
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I would like to talk more about transformer design before firing my circuit...
when a transformer is designed is designed to match the impedance of the load to the power source you have but transformers have some ineficiences we must account when designing...
this is resistance of the winding affect how much power a transformer can deliver
and how this power vary with load..
for example my probe transformer had 1,2kohm resistance on the primary... 3 ohms on the secondary..
we are going to start from the load perspective...
our load requirements are 9v 300ma
if i simply design a step down trasformer of 9v it would drop to a lower voltage under load depending on the load more than desired...
so how to come up with the compensated turns number ?
well you must do the math of the voltage drop on the windings resistance...
in the secodary we have 300ma 9v output under load.. because the 300ma times the 3 ohms resistance of the coil is creatinga voltage drop of 1v or so... so the unloaded voltage was 10v and the loaded voltage 9
you see? is not hard at all
so we now know that the secondary must receive 10v in order to provide 9v with 300ma due to its resistance of its coil.. .
now for the primary is the same...
you must approximate with the power being consumed on the secondary side and transform to the value of the transformation factor you have with your source voltage to the secondary voltage you need (10v in the ex) to find the current in the primary than this current times the primary resistance give the voltage drop in the primary, now an approximation to you the voltage drop on the primary under load so now is possible to get a better winding relation for the loaded transformer...
the conclusion is if we have a secondary with very high resistance is maybe easier to detect a voltage peak at a certain frequency where amps are restricted because the voltage drops when there is current in it... and wont drop when there is not...
another idea is to create a self limiting voltage to help avoid arc over short the secondary too much
limiting the power transfer between primary and secondary
if the current is restricted in the secondary also another effect is that the voltage cannot change so fast at the cell since its a capacitor.. and would transform a square wave being applied in a capacitor charging in that round way...stan waves... even a very well coupled transformer..
notice that 1kohm resistance times 20ma as per stan non tuned condition would be 20v reading... across this resistor.... it can be added in series to monitor.. a 1 watt should be ok
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The resonant cavity now start to makes sense for me...
the windows in the inner electrode are the to allow the input of water to be in a channel at an equipotential and the output window serve to capture the charge of exiting gas ions to increase the efficiency of the voltage zones... other wise we would get more high ionized gas at output... with the window the gas is forced to pass thru it and give up its positive charge to it again...it will readily neutralyse with a negative ion on the neighborhood of the electrode.. and so on... not sure how much it will be repelled but once it pass thru the window it will get attracted to the inner side of the tubular part inmy point of view..
according to this theory now i see the voltage performing work without being consumed as per stan claims to be very in accordance.. if we use the water as the electron source and voltage as the potential why cant we close loop the waterfall?
imagine we had vacuum planet with a hole that pass thru it and the water fall goes thru one hole and get out on the other side to the same high it came falling... than it gets down and fall again thru another hole and so on
For meyer words
in the process electrons are extracted from the isolated water bath.. in the process electrons are not introduced like in an electrolysis process..
the key is to make it generate energy while produce gas....
voltage perform work in a dead short condition
voltage is not consumed in an electronic circuit and perform work in the form of deflection of electrons in an electronic circuit
1 v deflects 1 amps (i believe in a 1 ohm load or medium)
100v 100amps
100amps x 100v 10kw isnt that amazing
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In any generator we have an energy source or force. The force in the case of wind arrive at all the blades forcing them to rotate together as they are bound to the rotor.
I mean each blade receive similar force.., meaning all they are at the same potential receiving the force...
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if water IS only electrons , protons and neutrons , then that is whats pouring out the end
Water is more than that. Water has been shown to exist in the form of molecular clusters. You normally have up to 28 Molecules per cluster. (This can be broken down to six or eight, by the action of really small tourmaline strings embedded in fibers.)
It seems to me that if a given cluster consists of atoms which are individually elongationally polarized in the correct orientation, the cluster's own momentum could provide stability against the electron plucking fracturing process.
I don't know if exhaust vapor would have clusters. It could be that Meyer's process totally shakes the water cluster apart.
And it should be obvious that water clusters contain binding energy. Hopefully, very little of this will come out the tailpipe.
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clusters get tricky , so ... 28 molecules = 84 atoms ? always even numbers ?
theoretically water molecule has 3 atoms but thats ONLY based on gas collected in vesels 150 years ago !
I believe certain things exist and most certainly - in , things we can not see .
these clusters would have to be connected , what ? helical , sperical , and at the same time water is self ionizing
these clusters are in unpolarised samples ?
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the clusters are believed to happen around ions since all molecules are strongly atracted to the ion than its attracted to other molecules...its simply a group of molecules that like staying together
I believe its ok this clusters... they will get broken as we proceed
http://www.indiana.edu/~ssiweb/papers/ion-water-clusters-2.pdf (http://www.indiana.edu/~ssiweb/papers/ion-water-clusters-2.pdf)
Voltage is a Force?
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elefor.html
If so why should the series cell receive a different voltages level eAch? IF we interprete each cell as a generator all must have the same capability to be arranged in series...
the water channel in the resonant cavity try to make all the inside electrodes at the same potential...
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i just had an offtopic idea
what if gravity was just electric force being the sun a great positive charged burning ball and the planets negative charged and atractracted to it... maybe the positive side will be reactive and negative side neutral...
hum
than maybe the mass is a measure of just how polarizable material things are...stupid idea hahaha
just for the good minds..
if all the inside electrode sets in the 11 cell are somehow an stator of a generator that is series arranged and they are at an equipotential they are where the force is being applied...
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well i´m runing tests and checking how to get the high voltage fields inside the water but i´m seeing that there is a leakage so great at 60Hz that is impossible to see any charge
i was considering if maybe the electrostatic filter assembly could not be involved in the proceess..
as if we could trap for example the half of the ions outside the resonant cell cavity, maybe it woud be easier to keep high voltage at it... maybe it works as a ground thing too...
anothe idea was to get an aluminum tape around the cell like on stan cell... but this wouldform a capacitance just the same...
maybe if disconnect the filter i have here i could get more isolation too... or maybe
i could make an electrode over it so have this ground i´m mentioning
When we charge the water capacitor the reason we cannot discharge it externally is that it start to discharge internally easier than it does externally... thats because when we stop charging theres no more current and acording to physics we need also current to have an electric field as there is always a leakage...
for example if i charge my plate in reference to a capacitor, when the capacitor is charged no more current flow so basically to maintain the voltage zones to high voltage actually it seems to me that is necessary to provide for this leakage instead ofstop it... so maybe using a coil is possible to provide for this leakage the problem is when the coil current decrease it reverts polarity... maybe is not a problem...
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How is this possible since galaxies exist without a sun and they're attracted to each other? A not so crazy idea is that the electric force is a special case of magnetic field cancellation and "configuration". Take the hall effect for example, it says that there exist a lorentz force applied to only the current of a conductor if there's a magnetic field present, it should be that there's a similar force to a neutral conductor but no force should exist on neutral particles, the electrons of the current are free for infinitely small time inside the conductor, that is the time they escape their atom's electron configuration and are moving in free space, when the electrons are inside the neutral atoms there's no force exerted but take the classic textbook example of a moving metal rod inside a magnetic field, there's force exerted while the atoms are neutral there's no shielding of the lorentz force by the rod atoms. Now take the relative motion of the magnetic field and the charges , the weird thing is that even though relativity theory says that every frame of reference can be expressed to another frame of reference things only work when the charges of a conductor are taken relative to the conductor reference frame only, this hasn't been explored since nobody ever treated individual charges inside conductor rather than the current of the conductor. Every interaction can be quantified.
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well Geon the thing im looking into is to give an alternate way for the electrons using a series of cells... such that the electrons have a totaly different path to keep discharging as long as the potential of the cavity does not pass bellow a ground ref...
i mean
creating a electron rich zone and a proton rich zone and being one short circuited to the other why iwouldnt it take this path...?
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The electrons take the most thermodynamically favorable path. Another way to think of it is by the work function of semiconductor that can be applied to conductors, the electrons will jump to the less chaotic configuration since this is the most conducting path contrary to the entropy increase in thermodynamic systems, I've also found cases where there's is entropy decrease in biological systems. An example would be touching two metals or amorphous carbon and graphite there will be electrons hoping to the other materials like a diode, this effect is higher with higher temperature. The outer electrons can collide with adjacent atoms and these atoms exchange electrons momentarily, the work function is like a potential well where once the electron passes to the other material it has a difficult time going back so there are more electrons on one side and there's a potential generated.
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if you take two cells and charge their inside electrode to the same high voltgae potential they will emit an eletcric force of the same magnitude
now if you connect the outer electrode of one cell to the inner electroctrode of the other cell you get a proton rich zone connected to a electron rich zon... you see?
if we simply short circuit the cell in the end would not do it... because the charge you apply to the inside electrode wants to go to the outside electrode.... while when in series it can be at the same potential of the other yet isolated from each other by diodes and ...
My point is at certain high voltage there is enough electric force to drive the electrolysis if we provide the circuitry for it to happens as is possible with cylinders to have a unidirectional force connected in series being at the same potential...
its a geometry propriety
thinking the cell as a generator or just as a fuell cell feed with water and catalyzed with high voltage force
the force is there because that portion of water will be polarized so the ions has to go into one certain direction because of high voltage force...
if they keep there neutralizing i see it as the gas being generated and as voltage performing work in a deadshort condition since the amps has another circuit to flow... voltage should not be consumed in anyway...except by leakage (ionized gas output)
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2993.0;attach=14430)
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here fabio http://www.rexresearch.com/hooper/horizon.htm
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thoght for later
increasing the capacitance increase the force per applied voltage ...
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today i woke up in the right mood... made tons of tests... and pushed up to 15kv to water...
today i worked from 7 to 0 ppm... no single bubble...
i used 4 microwave diodes 4 cells... and 1 diode in the closed loop... 1 transformer... and 1set of 60xpke400v tvs diodes arranged in series to give 24kv burnless diode to test with too.
Please notice that this does not light the lamp and dc is pretty dangerous! the cell stay charged when the probes arenot connected to it! Lot of Dangerous! please dont do this if youare not expert with high voltage!
good news are
the computer and labview work stable now with the new grounded ac wall plugs working ballanced.. it dont blinks anymore...
the probes work quite nice with the digital ocilloscope, but i found that the differential probe calibration is not zero as i wish.. and it has a small delay for the measurement.. i will try to find out how to zero up this as without it being zero at bothe probes at high voltages at same potential the probes than its worthless... just an isolated (not so isolated) probe...
but my guess is that there may be a way to zero it up... at lower voltge is zero...
anyway very nice test and bad results...
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Hi
consider any day where you dont fry your probe , a GOOD day ;)
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Hi
consider any day where you dont fry your probe , a GOOD day ;)
=D good point... i wont fry it... i hope (lol) im using it as it should i guess... i used the voltage max measurement on the digital oscilloscope to see that it is in a secure region of operation and use both probes at same time so one gives the indication when doing the differential measurement with the other...
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The average thermal energy at temperatures within water's liquid range (given by RT ) is sufficiently large to dominate the movement of ions even in the presence of an applied electric field. This means that the ions, together with the water molecules surrounding them, are engaged in a wild dance as they are buffeted about by thermal motions
http://www.chem1.com/acad/webtext/solut/solut-7.html
https://br.comsol.com/multiphysics/what-is-ionic-migration
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myself , I dont have much faith in scientist / qualified people .
people get qualifications with the fundamental goal of getting a high paying job .
In order to secure a future that will give them a certain quality of life they will adhere to what ever their master wants from them and say what ever is required.
chem1.com also say it is impossible to run a car on water
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/
the other , ion migration article is based on modeling and simulations , I seriously doubt they have hands on experience like the people on this site
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yeah... they criticize it but whoever wrote that didnt or could not considered what meyer did so i dont blame them either.
The thing about migration is very interesting... it shows that electric fields can set up ions in moevement... like i´m tryin to describe...
i´m sayin is that if we provide the right circuitry the key is the water fuel cell will be an electric generator. An electric generator that also generates gas as a consequence of the process.. And uses high voltage fields to be set up in generation mode.
When we achieve the threshold of ionization of water the water will get ionized causing a current peak... this current in my point of view could be the amps meyer meant to extract from the system...
meyer dont seem to apply any voltage difference across the water....
The vic when arreanged with two coils in series not part of the same core the coils will double the frequency of the applied high voltage pulse while trying to maintaining the charging current in one direction, this makes the life of the diode easier in the sense that the reversal piv will be smaller and controllable.. .
for example if we pulse the cell with chokes in series (meyer diagram) if the pulse entering the chokes is during pulse on than the chokes will charge up and allow the cell to gradually charge untill the current start to decrease. (cell chared).. at this point the choke has some constant current due to leakage of water..current stabilized ... now if we terminate the pulse the secondary will revert its polarity and the chokes must compensate for this polarity reversal for keep the current at the same magnitude... so for this the magnetic field of this coils must collapse.. and it will revert its voltage sending a second pulse to the water...
as it want to discharge back into the secondary the primary will develop a proportional voltage across it..remember this voltage will want to kill the mosfet so must be dissipated with resistor across the primary (and diode in series with it) this ocuring durring pulse off
now if the phase where oposed its mostly the same except that this pulse going back into the secondary will want to charge the battery or capacitor existing across the primary so creating a voltage that is greater than the source voltage during pulse on... impeeding the current flow... or if allowed recharging the battery ... this occuring during pulse on
if recharing back the batery or capacitor is important to have a diode acrosss the switch... to impeed reverse current on them as they are normaly unidirectional too... must be a fast diode
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Dear TGS
The probe i placed between ground and cell inner electrode...so just high voltage potential
the cells were connected in series
my vic has in this test 600 turns 10 layers... secondary plus 33 turns choke and the primary has 20turns..
the primary is allowed to collapse up to 800v... and has 500ohm 50W resistor with a fan and varistors 380v across is too
that is the first test to chek the high voltage going to the cell and check if both high voltage probes indicate similar voltages..
there is only 4 hv diodes going to the 4 cell inner electrode connected in this case by the secondary and choke in series with fields aiding... to ground... no negative to the cell...
the voltages went up to 15kv peak remaining around 7,5kvrms between pulses dc with about 24 v applied to the primary... when the cell had 0ppm
when it had 7pmm it went down to 5kv or so max voltage
in this case the primary was pulsed and when the pulse terminate the pulse goes to the cell...
i´m using a 10ohm resistor between the secondary and ground and monitoring the signal input together with the current going into the secondary into the analog osciloscope and using the input signal as the ext trig of the digital oscilloscope where both the high voltage probes are connected to.
basicaly at primary the voltage is ´peaking at 600v since there is up to 1 amp going into it and the tranformation factor is 30 so there is 15kv on the output or so...
on lower freq it can get up to 2,5 amps
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So, I take it you have it hooked up like the first wiring diagram correct? If so your differential probe connects to the positive and negative on the cell itself as show in the diagram, IE, red to the positive and black to the negative. This is the high voltage potential that is being placed on the cell by the voltage intensifier circuit to ionize the atoms of the water molecules in order to break them down into their component gas atoms. Do not hook the differential probe to the isolated ground of the VIC transformer.
Now your turn ratios are all wrong in your VIC transformer. The chokes and secondary should always have the same turn counts as they need to have the same inductance. The primary coil should have a turn ratio between the secondary much the same as Meyer's did but can have a range from 1:3.25 - 1:8. If you have 600 turns on the secondary coil you will need to have 600 turns on each of the chokes also and in the range I gave you your turns on the primary will be 185-75 turns for the primary coil. It has to be this way or the VIC will not be able to handle the load the exciter array or WFC places on the it.
You didn't tell me about your exciter array. How may resonant cavities do you have hooked up in series and are they built to the same or similar specs as given to us by Don Gable? That which I showed is taken from the specs given to us by Don Gable but I wanted to see visually how they were placed inside of the resonant cavities based on the measurements given to us by Don Gable so I redrew it using AutoCAD. To give all of you a head start in building your cells it's better to build these with the resonant cavities inline like a straight six for an engine for a car. This will get you around the problem Meyer ran into that caused him to have to disconnect one of his resonant cavities. Now don't ask me for the specs of this cell shown as I don't give out information like that but this is just to give you all an idea of what I am talking about, okay?
This cell design gets around the problem Meyer ran into as with a circular design he had the positive and negative connections sitting side by side and the physical distance between the adjacent cells was less that the combined space gaps between the series array and current will follow the path of least resistance so basically it bypassed Meyer's entire array and jumped across from the positive and negative connections through the water bath as remember water is a physical part of the circuit. I know this because it also happened to me as remember I build to learn and learn more after I test what I build so for me it's been there done that, okay?
Now my VIC is practically the same in ohms as that of Stanley Meyer based on the data Don Gable provided for us. My secondary and chokes have a resistance of around 70 or more ohms each and my primary around 5-10.5 ohms most of the time when I build them. This is done so that the transformer can handle the load the WFC places on it. We all need to give a big shout out to Don Gable for giving us these numbers to work with as they give us a base from with we can work from. You can make changes but not too far from what is given until you gain an understanding on just how the technology actually works by hands on experimenting testing what works and what does not.
Now on the WFC once you gain an understanding of the technology through trial and error you can start to make changes. If you increase the gap the voltage requirements go up but the load placed on the transformer decreases and if you decrease the gap the voltage requirements go down but the load placed on the transformer increases. So, don't start making a lot of changes until you gain an understanding of the technology first.
You only need one blocking diode per VIC transformer and make sure it is a Schottky type diode just as Meyer used as he used that type of a diode for a reason. You will understand more once you compare the specs of these types of diodes to other types of diodes on the market.
Now the reason for not making big changes to what Meyer built is if you do then no one knows what you should expect to get at the cell as then you have went far outside of Meyer's technical brief and patents to the point that you have nothing to guide your efforts and hep you to understand this technology. Basically don't go adding unknowns to something that is already an unknown for it makes it impossible to figure out that way.
Now in the interview video you can see just how I hooked up the differential probe to the exciter array as that is one of two ways you can hook it up. The second way is to hook it up between just one resonant cavity and then the voltage you must reach, if you built the resonant cavity to specs, is 1kv or more to get it working correctly as that is what Meyer gives us to go on. In the video I reached over 4kv and I have shown scope shots of me reaching 8.8kv which is 880 volts per resonant cavity as I have ten wired in series. I fell short of Meyer's 1kv or more volts per resonant cavity which is why it doesn't work correctly yet. But I am building a new VIC set up that should finally reach these requirements Meyer talks about needing in the patents. It's all being done by trial and error so maybe it works or maybe it doesn't and if not I have to figure out what I must do to reach these voltage goals Meyer gives us in the patents as this is all we actually have to go on.
This is the way it must be done until you gain a complete understanding of the technology. I helped all of you with some things that I figured out by way of trial and error. You all are going to have to get away from the drawing board and start running experiments as that is the only way you will be able to solve a lot of these problems that you will be running into.
So Sebofato,
You must hooked the differential probe in the same place that I did if we are to be able to compare notes. I hope all that I have just talked about helps you reach the same or even greater voltages than I am currently getting to my exciter array set up. Now we can start comparing apples to apples
TGS
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Hey TGS
My cell is exactly like what we know stans cells were... didnt you saw the picture on last pages?
let me ask you a question if you hook your differential probes together to a source of pulsed high voltage what is your noise level?
i have here some noise that is not helping... for 5kv it gives me 250v of noise... it apear as a pulse when should have nothing apearing right?
how i solve this? resistance at the tips? i´m afraid is a calibration issue so i ask you to confirm the operation of yours...
i was hoping to be able to measure voltages in the range of 50 to 100v across the cell with it being at 10kv ac or dc potential ... not working as i expected it would
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I have also other vics that are going to be tested... including extra chokes and vics with all chokes in same core... i will try to post some pics
the test i´m doing right now is from the patent description
600t
i just changed the primary ratio and reduced the choke but this choke with 33 is just a continuation of the secondary with 24awg wire... secondary had 600 turn 100m of 30aw tricoated wire divided in 10 layers with 0,24mm polyester...
the patent say 200turn but in my best guess to work up with 100v input
and choke was 100t
well and i´m testing some ideas of my own that comes from meyers claims and descriptions and names for things like WFC EPG VIC PLL WFP ...
so i´m in the last week trying to see how could the cell be used as a generator instead of a load.
do you have any ideas on that?
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I will stop posting on this site for a bit and just talk to you directly, okay? As I said I simply don't like how I am treated here as I still hold the memories fresh in my head and heart of what happened to me from the deep past and the not so distant past.
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Dear TGS
Ok, dont worry...
I had another idea about how the resistance of the coils works
well basically is the following.. .
Stan said the resistive wire was not required at all in his newzealand video
He say in the tech brief that it is there to avoid signal degradation
When you get a Transmission line with a charachteristic impedance Z it will have the problem that if not correctly terminated you get reflections that will distort the original signal.That means that when you have to try many different frequencies to be sent to the water the transmission line wont deliver the same waveform to the water cell..
when a matched line is used for whatever frequency the waveform at the load will have the same shape asthe pulse you entered into it...
so if the pll is to find a resonance the coils should not resonate by their self to be able to detect when water will resonate...
when this happen the proprieties of the tl shoud change a way that is possible to detect
to know if its matched the input voltage or current should be the same at source and load..
if the resistance is not in the wire actually it could be easier to see the effect
bifilar coil would be good way to start...
something i saw somewhere is that in high voltage coils there is resistors added at each layer to prevent or damd the selfoscillation of the coils
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"Stan said the resistive wire was not required at all in his newzealand video "
in the video a guy asked him about the ss wire , stan said , if someone trys to get around the patent , hes "got it both ways"
just in case someone decides to copy but change something
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right massive... this mean the resistance can be build in if wish...
but this mean also is still needed somewhere maybe?
changing subject
is good to see people come over here and start spreading my ideas on other places and dont even post a reply here....nor give the credits or put where the idea came from... not that i wanted any credit that i deserve for my ideas but the ideas would be more readly developed if we jump this shame...
i´m taking a look on other forums and the idea of the cell being used for ``something else` just poped...
lets discuss it here?
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I will stop posting on this site for a bit and just talk to you directly, okay? As I said I simply don't like how I am treated here as I still hold the memories fresh in my head and heart of what happened to me from the deep past and the not so distant past.
LOL
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When it come to pulsing i have my doubts that goes with the way stan did...
i did my way from the start and aways had found a maner to create extremely high voltages...
but when it gets to a mistery circuit that can do such things as i´m proposing i´m enough man to say i could be wrong from start... or maybe not... doubt yourself is a sign of strongness not weakness..
to insist is possible but not blindly..
i have thought of something that seems prety key in the process, this was only understood by me because i had to went to the physics university and stay thinking over it for 9 years... haha
the idea is as it were back when i publish it maybe in the 2008... when i was totaly newbie... i called it the infinity circuit back than since it was a closed loop where i wanted the fields to create the current flow when pulsed in a sequential manner..
back than i was terrible with math and all so now i realize this is the same idea i had in 2008
but as you see if you have one idea it means nothing unless you are sure of it, or if you want to see if your idea is right or not. You must be prepared to fail so no bad time start over otherwise most likely one would be demotivated to keep work..
thats why is better to think we know nothing so we can still absorb info like a sponge like when we were just learning all about it fresh...
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http://www.physics.umd.edu/courses/Phys122/Streets/21_Electrical_potential.pdf
This is a good info about what is required to know. Is some sumary of what is learned in physics 3 coarse.. regarding electrostatics..
Basically my idea of the cell as a generator has the only problem that the ions potential must be observed if we want them to discharge them somehow..
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http://ww2.odu.edu/~jdudek/Phys112N_materials/2-potential.pdf
this is some other good info...
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Hey Seb,looking forward to reading that info...have you heard or studied the pinch effect ?
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Hello Newguy
the pinch effect is exploited in the fusion reactors that is being build since many years... in my university there is one tokamak being build since 20years ago and it should be ready by 2030
The idea is that the voltage discharge is so much that it creates a magnetic field that compress the flowing charges allowing them to hit each other at high rates...
in the tokamak the effect is caused by a toroidal coil that creates this magnetic field for the confinement of the fusion reaction inside the torus and not touching walls..
i having a hard time trying to find how to make its work (my idea now))
it follows that the cell has around 1nf but from it to ground it may have few pf
when we charge one plate to the same potential of the other the potential between the two is 0 so as the electric field... depending on geometry some thing can become different lets consider concentric spheres as is easier to understand...
The electric field inside a conductor is normaly 0 since the charges aways want to go to the surface so if we get one electrode inside the other there is a sobreposition so the potentials sum or subtracts... for example i charge the two electrodes with oposite charges there is 0 electric field outside the capacitor... and in the middle of it you get a 0v ref right in the middle of it...
now if i charge only one electrode in reference to ground its much harder to put charge into that plate since very small capacitance a high voltage is needed to get a equivalent charge like we had in the first example
so if i charge for example the outer electrode to 50kv the potential inside the cell is 50kv anywhere since if i touched the inner electrode to ground a current would flow... but the electric field is 0 untill ground is touched to it,., or get close to it!
My quest is to use the voltage as meyer described to try find how he achieved his claims...
in my opinion understanding how the cell could have worked would easy the process of making it work...
From meyer claims the cell with the vic forms a self sustained oscillation system. being the cell the source of the electricity... so the problems are... we have a force that atracts and repelles oposite charges in the system... thereto it would be necessary to find how to use this force
if we go by analogy the wind make the eolic generator to turn the forces add up to create the torque...
the forces in my idea are attracting the negative charges and setting it at a highpotential zone and at the same time its repelling the positive charges and seting them to a lower potential...
a current flows from the positive to the negative potential so the problem being the positive charges are in a situation where they need a negative charge at a lower potential than where it is to be able to discharge with it... flow..
to use voltage and make it perform work without being consumed the direction of the current it induces must be perpendicular to the field... such that the force is used without being consumed... i think if it its perpendicular it could be either to the left or right for ex .... so work is done because there is a force being applied in a system of charges but voltage is not consumed since the charges are bound in another system of charges...
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The is a patent called energy generation aparatus where they have pbn ceramic coated electrodes where hv is applied... in the patent they say there is accumulationof charges on the ceramic electrodes so the ceramic is ultimately coated with graphite to form a conductive layer or deionization layer over the ceramic... to provide or take electrons from ions in the water... in this patent they provide a such structrure where they could short the two conductive layers to each other without killing the electric field to again reduce the screening of the electric field ... that would allow the ions to be discharged and thereto gas generated... in my opinion it could be just a coil since it would allow dc but impeed ac to flow... so pulses can develop the voltage across the system as pulse terminates the coil allow the current to flow...
said structure is part of a citation from yet another patent where its a kind of shilded switch...
they kind of say in the patent that this shield allow to connect one surface to the other without the electric fields going there...
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Is it possible to configure a situation to charge the electrodes with an 11 volt potential difference with those high voltages? I wander if a (example)solid -1000 volts on 1 electrode with a variable + on the othèr would have any effect...just a thought...im sure your studdies will no doubt lead you to your finish line...with Stans i believe he chose the geometry of the cells for a reason...i still believe there is some common denominator to Stans and Andersons (making gas really fast)
Stans brother mentioned putting the brakes on the electrons ....the tubes ...speeding electrons up and putting the brakes on would be included in my studies with his stuff...self sustaining discharge hasnt been in my studies with Anderson's stuff either. ..id bet your ideas from your studdies will come together soon 8)
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I dont know much about anderson...
this is the patent i was talking about
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US20100126846.pdf
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According to many claims we get in the past of some of our parthners in this research that disappeared as they have a working cell..
List of claims
Tutanka said once that the blocking diode is not needed...
Ronnie says the point is to get high voltage dc to the cell so it keep charged..
Stan says the objective of the process is to take electrons out of the water bath...
Ronnie says the resistance of the coils are at matched condition when exact the same as stan...
I say that maybe i understood this idea of the match some 6 months ago but only now i realized how its applied...
when the primary dumps the energy into the core when the pulse terminate the secondary secondary apply a positive pulse thru tx4 coil and a negative pulse thru tx5 coil when the pulse arrive to the cell it will be reflected and cause a tuned condition... in the case of a capacitive load the effect is analogous of a short circuit so the coil will develop a high current at the end (low voltage) if not matched...
if matched the voltage input at the chokes will be the same as the load input and there should be no reflection...
what this mean?
it means the chokes will absorb the power of the transformer and deliver it to the load entirely but not only that...
An unmatched TL with the load can cause reflections so as a unmatched source and TL
But in my understanding the source impedance is only important if we had reflections from load...
i mean if the cell is to reflect it reflects because its impedance is negative so it acts like a short
so its impedance is much smaller than the line impedance
this reflection will go back on the line inverted
now if our source is also of lower impedance than the Tl it will revert it again an send another positive pulse to the cell and so on doubling the frequency
the cell is a small coax, stan called it a resonant cavity... it has a very small impedance... there are calculators on the net for it
so it is itself a open circuit tl of short length... it also is being feed by a high impedance source so that any pulse we apply to it go back and forth thru it at its resonant frequency and dampens..
in a transmiter to be able to transmite you need to match the impedance of the load otherwise the reflections impeed the signals to get to the load... with all the reflections is not possible to raise the power input because it creates dangerous "currents that kill the device"
basically not wanted tunedcondition...
I think if we put in this way become easier to understand why would we need a matched load
Stan says he uses a electromagnetic fields to restrict amps and not a resistive element...
A resistive element although can be used in tuning operation to widen the band width and provide the necessary impedance for the circuit to absorb all power.. It would also easy things up because it is fixed value...dont vary with frequency...
tunners work with capacitors and inductors to balance the power being send to the load so that the transmiter can work on full power without consuming power for it...
So the idea is that once the correct frequency is found it can be designed to work without the resistor substituting it by a reactance.
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Funny..
I have been reading about this subject as well, last days.
A dipole antenna works, because the current in both parts, are running in the same direction. Otherwise they would cancel eachothers fields.
The half wave creates at in the middle, on the most outside part of its wave, HIGH VOLTAGE
Now, what to do with the 2 electrodes of Stan?
As you said, it looks like a coax cable.
So, fields that cancels eachother out.
Thats not what we want.
And thats not what it is....
What you see here are 2 antenna,s.
One that transmits a positive wave annex voltage field and at the same time the other one transmits a negative wave.
Chokes are the transmitters.
Basically, one choke does a halfwave and the othe choke the other part of the full wave.
To keep the polaritation in place, the diode is there...
Have a nice weekend!
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Hello Dear Steve,
Thanks for the post, i´m not sure if i understood well what you mean could you explain little more bro? The high voltage would be across the cell?
I was thinking and maybe the fact of having un-equal coil lengths may be already the compensation needed for the impedance...
but something tells me that a 5kohm power resistance bank would be in handy...
at 5khz the inductance for having this impedance is relatively smal.. under 200mh if the frequency is higher it should be smaller
i was referening to we apply a subharmonic frequency that is exite the modes in the cavity..
you said they are two antenas but as they are not in dipole coniguration _ _ the fields outside cancel and should stay on the inside except by the high voltage dc part of it... i believe only the magnetic fields cancell because they are in coax and then the Electric field is transmited to the cavity to travel up the end and get back i read that this makes the voltage to flow 90 degreas of current its like waves propagate in coax cables ... thats why i tried to see as a tuned component like an antena but also as it is one inside the other the stress remain inside...
Could you explain it to me Steve?
Nice week end for you too =D
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Have a good look and listen to what this man tells..
https://youtu.be/PPKEpJEt_cM
Then more if you want...
https://youtu.be/7Sgtq-ncZAE
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Listen to the first video at 3:14
Thats important info
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Let me give you another video tip
https://youtu.be/IWVPJSoJDzA
Now try to apply that to Stan and Rons work.
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So you are saying that if we get the connection to the tubes on the same side like on stan cell the cell irraridates because there is a commom mode?right?so the current on the cell is on the same direction in both electrodes so they dont cancel the elecrtic field nor the magnetic field?
I was thinking and thinking and now its time to experiment more...
i´m not sure if the cell should irradiate to external this would be a loss stan didnt described directly..
couldnt it be that the line provide balanced current under match? maybe leaving the cellcharged...
The videos was prety nice!
thanks a lot bro
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;D
At least we must get the tubes to radiate magnetic waves.
Not to cancel eachother out.
Thats for sure.
The cell acts as the top of the antenna
. The chokes matches the waves.
In two weeks, i am able to continue building again... :)
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I'm trying to work out if it's possible for displacement current to create e/m waves and I'm getting weird solutions E=μ0(ε0( c dE/dt + d2E/dt2)) that's a kick * ODE lol.
The only thing that resembles a capacitor is a waveguide and this only directs em waves it doesn't radiate normaly.
Hey I solved the ODE and the golden ratio just popped up, interesting I feel like yoda now.
E = e^((-1 - Sqrt[5])/2 ct) C[1] + e^((-1 + Sqrt[5])/2 ct) C[2]
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I will share someinfo about the SS wire i came up with..
this ideas may need to be confirmed but seems all clear...
In short words the ss wire distributes the resistance over the coil making its Zo to be normally higher and more stable for a broaden range of frequencies.. and as in a tl the energy travels as voltage not current only than there should not be a voltage drop although restrict amps and increase zo
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There is a secondary imaginary em wave travelling with each e/m wave in the void that can only exist inside a conductor and is the reflected wave , dependent on charge acceleration thus it has a phase delay or Pi/2 because the sin function has maximum slope during the beginning and zero half way.
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Didnt got it Geon..
today i did several tests and determined the dc impedance of my power supply using the labview i determined that under 1 amp it has got a 2,5 ohm impedance, and at 150ma is up to11 ohms... h
it includes the voltage drops of all dioes and igbt...
the impedance change with load impedance but this is a range i tested with 10-20-30-40-50 ohms resistors...
i set to 1 amp with 10 ohms and see the voltage aplied, the current, and open the circuit and measure the input voltage
than maintain it and change the resistors and make the measurements
i found that it depends more on the current output so is reasonable to make graphs for output impedance vs current consume for each different load range...
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...
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YesGeon 8)
this is what i´m talking about... k is the dielectric inst it?
The Electric field is the derivative of the potential... the equation of the potential of a charge in medium of dielectric field means this!!
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sorry doesnt make sense really go on with what you were doing before I posted ;D
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y%3Dk*e^%28%28%28-1%2Bsqrt2%29%29c*t%2Fr%29+-+k*e^%28%28%28-1-sqrt2%29%29*c*t%2Fr%29 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=y%3Dk*e^%28%28%28-1%2Bsqrt2%29%29c*t%2Fr%29+-+k*e^%28%28%28-1-sqrt2%29%29*c*t%2Fr%29)
I don't know what k is I took initial conditions E(0)=0 and I got k1=-k2=k that's all if k1 is different that k2 then the E field changes from positive to negative and has a 1/sqrt2 value in the root .............
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a 1/2 wave dipole aerial has Z of 73 ohms , a 1/4 wave aerial = 36.5 ohms
this is IF the coil is seen as radiating
robert adams always aimed for 72 ohms in his motor/gen , this could very well be the reason , he was a radio guy
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what a good hard day of testing...
i did several tests with coax and bifilar coils
i used one off the outputs of the ir4427 as a half bridge output and tried...
to have a better application of it as a square generator is good to make a capacitive divider for having a point with the VCC of the ir4427 divided by 2 so is possible having both positive and negative pulse to be applied for test... between this point and the half bridge goes the load...
the worst is that it need isolated channels to observe better...
also it would be good to use a diode match on the chip side for protecting it in that case... basically use a zener or tvs for the vcc of operation...
i could see the delay a bifilar coil or coax can create... 50ns or so for few turns on a toroidal core... of bif speaker wire...
also tested the coaxs and how to match the impedance of it... i sanded a wirewound resistor so it became a variable resistor with a wiper arm... i didnt had any good potentiometers for test ..
than i found a point where the wave become more square and one where it become just a small short pulse when its as short when it become a higher resistance the voltage become bigger than the source aparently.. but there is a ringing in the first coax already sending the signal to the 1 channel of the scope and the choke... the other side of the choke is connected to the differential measurement...
i found that we can short one of the coils and it will than reproduce the exact waveform...
I believe to use bifilar as a transmission line is important to understand the problem that comes when the bifilar are continuously next to each other...
the pulse speeds up itself in this way
i read that when working with bifilar there is a technic that called twist the wire.... not simply put together or aleatoreally twist...
it 1 twist per turn
if you want to see lets say we are looking the coil from above
lets use i a l to denote the two wires... as you see the wires faces only one side to the other line and on the other side it faces itself... so is different than a situation wher the next positive wire atracts the pulse thru the line instead of retard it.... like if it was inductivelly speeding up...
original
ililililililililililililililililili
twisted
illiilliilliilliilliilliilliilliilliilliilliil
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I though this days if all this i´m doing is not wrong and all and right now before moving my lab to the other room i will do another one test as i think i´m not so wrong about it...
well my line of though is this...
stan says he sent a unipolar voltage to water
and uses high voltage zones
my idea was to compare to see if i didnt confused when talking that is not the same to apply the charge to only one electrode unipolar to charging both electrodes...
for example a parallel plate capacitor it may have a large capacitance 1000 times greater than the isolated plate so the charge on the plate would be small in the high voltage case so one argue than wouldnt the force become smaller?
i thought that a lot to conclude that this is not really the point.. if we do apply 1000 times more charge to charge a capacitor than to charge a voltage zone this may be the way in principle but...
what is the electric field of a charged capacitor?
now what is on the isolated case?
the point is the charge in the plate is capable of creating only few volts across the water because of screening and all but in my point of view the electric field is way stronger close to the plate where it need to be in my educated guess..
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A fuel cell works by ionizing the hydrogen and leting the atoms to pass thru the electrolyte while its electron flow in an outside circuit... the oxygen in the palladium electrode reacts with the hydrogen atoms allowing more into to continue the reaction.
This is my review of how it work after few years without thinkin really much about it...
well i guess if we had a porous catalyzed fuel cell electrode an simply pass hydrogen thru it applying high voltage could be able to ionize the hydrogen in very large amount...
the reaction of the fuell cell happens beacause of the triple fase formed bewteen electrode electrolyte and catalyser without the electrolyte and being in contact with the 3 things it wont work
water can be used as the electrolyte but is not the ideal
if hydrogen is bubled on a electrode it become negatively charged
and obviously the gas become an ion
but this stops as it reachs equilibrium..
if i think charged gas pulse released is pretty much like a current being pulsed isn't ?
this is a source of energy that comes straight from the reaction characteristics and that can be used as the reaction creates pressure and ionised gas.. so we have a generator where the pressure and flow are the only limitations... as meyer said the gas than can be used elsewhere...
he show a pump in the gas electrical generator patent showing a kind of epg on the top of a water fuel cell... with a pump recirculating the gas...
a charged paricle has electric field pointing out to space if positive and if it moves it creates just the kind of circle electromagnetic field stan show on the new zealand when talking about the epg
there is other evidences of this field represented elsewhere in his work...
so if we get charge in movement in a very resistive medium like air inside a tube what else we also get ? Potential difference? now if we consume this potential energy in a amp consuming device would not it be able to further eject electrons?
now check out if i´m bulshiting you
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Make gas and make it fast brother :)
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epg hollow inner insulated tube with ac sinusoidal current and another thing it does matter what kind of current waveform you have because of the dI/dt part ->inducted force or current perpendicular to the primary current
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We are going to make it true my friend!
i today had to move all my lab from one room to the other... i had to do little in a hurry at the end so is a big mess now, if could have more time and patience it could be working by now... mad for that... but i´m puting order in it and soon should be testable again maybe tomorrow...
the other room is very hot...
i had it clear in my mind what to do...
Geon what i meant is that if the EPG works with charged particles... the only energy to maintain the particles charged is the leakage to ambient... argon ionize fairly easy... even wirelessly
question is to keep it charged it must be in a zone of extrelly high potential... just that.. since its a closed loop the charge is proportional to the voltage...
for example a fluorecent bulb to light is just excited above the ionization point... there are filaments on both sides to increase the current the little metal surface is able to conduct
while ago they use a reactor coil to restrict the current when allow the voltage to ionize it
i found that it light even without any current apreciable ... wireless
this mean the field was just enough to knock electrons out of the argon and let than recombine generating a photon that strickes the fluorescent material which absorbs it and emit visible photons...
argon generates uv in that case at least...
my best guess is that pushing it harder we generate other wavelenghts... and depending on the atoms we have of course there can be a system of exchange of wavelengths thru atoms that must be thought...
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from now on i´m going to work with my cell shielded inside a metal case like a microwaveoven case... i have one used for servers with glass window is little bigger than a microwave oven and fits my cell well in it... if i havent it i would do it with aluminum foil maxing a box around the cell to contain the electromagnetic radiation inside... for mine i will have to make a sort of perfurated aluminum on the glass so i can see but keep protected... if i had a microwave oven door i would take it out of....
i feel in this way i will be safer and more motivated to do the right job
i have a question... why isnt the microwave just metalic inside... why is it painted?
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Best i can understand with the microwave ? Is so that a gap isnt created if something conductive is inside; preventing sparks and arks.
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what do you mean it's painted? is it resistive or conductive on the inside? a resistive material would be there to avoid e/m wave reflections, just like in waveguides.
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i´m thinking of it... the inner tube allow water to come out of it and gas goes into it to be able to go out... so a charged gas passing thru it should equipotentialize with the electrode...
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Here is some pictures of what i´m talking about...
this is my resonant cavity inside a cage that will allow me to see it inside... the filter is outside...
the cell sits on a square of glass maybe 8mm thick and under is is the bottom case of the cavity,,
my question would be... what sort of equipment i need to find to be able to measure it going? the waves? i thought i would need a turn or a mini antena,, but the frequency of a microwave cannot be saw on a 150MHZ oscilloscope i guess mine is 60MHz
i measured the cook place of my microwave oven and it seems to have 3 wavelengths so basically when the waves get into the microwave until they get hit by something and absorbed they bounce up and down up to a limit where it get a maximum amplitude,,,
my cage is not made for a particular frequency.. but it may have some resonant frequency modes depending on the frequencies but basically what i want to do is to trap the electromagnetic waves so they don't irradiate to my measurement devices and to me...
Maybe a 1Ghz one... or maybe a spectrum analyzer would be required..
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Microwave ovens don't have resistive paint anywhere they create standing waves, there might be a formula for three dimensions but in 2 dimensions the only thing required to make standing waves is that the length be a multiple of the wavelength.
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what do you mean it's painted? is it resistive or conductive on the inside? a resistive material would be there to avoid e/m wave reflections, just like in waveguides.
i have found little info about what is the function of the paint.. i read that not totally reflective paint is used to control the Q of the cavity.. maybe to impede too much to accumulate in a non load condition...
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I have a huge piece of aluminum.. i could use to do a nicer cavity maybe would have a greater Q...
anyone had a thought of the resonant cavity was inside some metal boxed on the buggy... wish i could find how big it was and how it looked inside
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Here is some pictures of what i´m talking about...
this is my resonant cavity inside a cage that will allow me to see it inside... the filter is outside...
the cell sits on a square of glass maybe 8mm thick and under is is the bottom case of the cavity,,
my question would be... what sort of equipment i need to find to be able to measure it going? the waves? i thought i would need a turn or a mini antena,, but the frequency of a microwave cannot be saw on a 150MHZ oscilloscope i guess mine is 60MHz
i measured the cook place of my microwave oven and it seems to have 3 wavelengths so basically when the waves get into the microwave until they get hit by something and absorbed they bounce up and down up to a limit where it get a maximum amplitude,,,
my cage is not made for a particular frequency.. but it may have some resonant frequency modes depending on the frequencies but basically what i want to do is to trap the electromagnetic waves so they don't irradiate to my measurement devices and to me...
Maybe a 1Ghz one... or maybe a spectrum analyzer would be required..
A Trifield Detector should b all you need The holes in the microwave screen are smaller than any part of the microwave length ...im sure you knew that..just sayin.Im pretty sure acrylic is a great radiation absorbor is it not?
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water may be.. acrylic i´m not sure either... yes i knew the wave size is bigger than the holes thats why i added that screen so i could observe from outside without let they out...
Thanks man about the triflel idea i will check what it is...
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i have done some tests today with amp restriction dissipating some power... burned a finger but the insight was valuable..
i tested my theory of the reverse pulse basically it generated few bubbles on rain water at 4ppm
but the voltages was not very high across all cells... i got up to 15kv pulse reversal... getting up to 2kv on charging in this case i tested all cells in series... i will try half the number of cells and just one or two also to see what happens.. maybe too many cells in series become too much resistance in the form of water...
i came up with the following thought about amp restiction... when we get a flyback to operate in shutoff condition if we restrict the amps the voltage first is greater and than the phase of the current and voltage are alligned... thats because during pulse off the diode must open the circiut so during pulse on it must conduct but if amps are unrestricted the magnetic field of this current will impeed the rise of voltage since its detracting from the magnetic field of the primary
another thought that i´m working on is that my first experiences was on big coils... some how i had a good feeling about them and i was thinking about what meyer says about electrical force... when we get a coil of small weight theres less energy involved into developing a potential over it
we could think a coil as a capacitor that splits its charge because of changing magnetic field... so its a potential energy accumulated on the coil.. if a same leght of wire having a voltage induced in it has different thickness..its clear than that this capacity of the coil is more strongly visualised... when we load the coil is the same as when we load a capacitor but as the primary is still acting it will keep the internal potential on the coil
if we want a stronger magnet what we do?
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theres limit because of freq and skin depth . old car ign coils are large compared to modern small ign coils which go direct onto spark plug
some projection TV flyback coils are large ... like a handful , but relatively unusable compared to small computer CRT flybacks
I think on this thread there was link to hyperphysics about coulombs , also had a bit about copper atoms and available free electrons so , the idea of more conductor is true but the hi freq and skin depth comes into it too
I have an electric fence coil which I will use 1 day , very well insulated for long life , these are low freq to get the most of the coil and send it through who ever touches the fence , I guess maybe ferrite core
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Good point massive thanks for answering,,,
yes i think it too the skin effect would somehow come into play but i guess there could never be an internal current into the wire even if it was too thick i´m i wrong? right?
anyway i´m thinking to use 18awg i have 2kg for a bifilar choke... its skin depth should be 17khz
so maybe there is a limit in the thickness of the copper that is useful for increasing too..
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I have though of the following
in a wire if we consider the line of the wire the x axis the electric field is in the x axys and the magnetic field is in a tangencial axis around the x axis...
i dont know how is the word in english for that...
but my though is in a tokamak they use amagnetic field to create a magnetic chamber where the molecules in the chamber with have a magnetic field to travel in...
i was thinking that if we could make a toroidal coil over the coil we are resonating than something could get really interesting..
i´m going out to get some proper epoxy for my new giant...
lets hope i´m right....
anyone remember puharich? doesnot he had two unterminated chokes connected to the cell?
in my point of view he did the same analysis i do as the cell being a spring and the coils the mass
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if we have to much strong spring to break we would need a equivalent lot of mass...
if we have a maximum flux intentisity how do we get a greater force?
for example a magnet canot have more than certain magnetic field for a given size...
if you stick two magnets together you get what?
a stronger magnet...
for me is the same with the wire... why a thicker wire secondary will provide more amps?
so if the chokes now are seeing by me as isolated pulsing electric field sources than i want them to apply the most force possible.. how is this possible? if we need a biger force we need a bigger ?
i believe electrical resonance the first that brought me here to this forum may be the key..
if we get a lot of power recirculating in a system i believe there may be lots of forces involved too no?
i doing a new giant coil to see what happens...
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after some years i see how the vic works with more clear today and i believe what i see now...
the vic must have be connected with 3 coils being that the 2 chokes subtract the secondary potential so if they are at separated coil formers they should be connected end to end start to start
and cell start end of a chokes
this way the field colapse.. hahahahaha
so this is just as the same as having it pulsed from a dc source and thats what the 8xxa should do right ?
so the first thing i ask myself is ok shoudl it not appear the double pulse in this case?
certainly...
meyer said just that
the secondary reverts the pulse when the pulse terminated making the diode to open the circuit allowing the chokes to colapse producing a unipolar voltage pulse...
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it apear to me that the energy in the secondary collapse must be the same energy of the chokes colapse to it go to infinity without burning the diode... so meyer get one coil over the other as the must go in the techbrief
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It's almost new year in a few hours here, what do you mean unipolar pulse? The magnetic field can create lorentz force even if the magnetic field strength H is zero , if one field is going one way the other the opposite way , you do simple gallilean transformation for speeds of B flux v<<c and the force is 2F. Now the faraday-maxwell law is incomplete imagine a circular loop what is the field vector at exactly the center of the loop, there should be an equation that gives zero emf for zero radius not the equation of maxwell, if the circuit isn't closed or doesn't form a loop why is there no emf ? a unipolar pulse is hard to imagine but what if a north field is increasing and a south field is decreasing there should also be an electric force 2F. Can there be induction in capacitors?
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actually there is an emf in an open loop but there can be no current in simplified view
i think yes there is is induction but the resistance of a capacitor is too great so as the voltage drop
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after some years i see how the vic works with more clear today and i believe what i see now...
the vic must have be connected with 3 coils being that the 2 chokes subtract the secondary potential so if they are at separated coil formers they should be connected end to end start to start
and cell start end of a chokes
this way the field colapse.. hahahahaha
so this is just as the same as having it pulsed from a dc source and thats what the 8xxa should do right ?
so the first thing i ask myself is ok shoudl it not appear the double pulse in this case?
certainly...
meyer said just that
the secondary reverts the pulse when the pulse terminated making the diode to open the circuit allowing the chokes to colapse producing a unipolar voltage pulse...
Nice theory.
Can you draw it to make it a bit more clear, Fabio?
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here it comes
The first thing is... the bifilar is inside than the primary goes over it than the secondary over it with all the required insulation between them...
the bifilar im doing intercalating layers of 18awg they will have 1000turns each... 0dd number of layers
like in hotel california the people get check in any time of the year but can never leaves
as you see this form a pfn... we could add up capacitors as required too
the primary will have 20 turns so applying 12v will give 600v across this chokes during pulse on
the collapse of the primary is essential to allow the collapse of the chokes.. 20t 12v at 5v a maybe will be able to become up to 800v 1kv this mean the 600v become proportionally 600v *800v/12v become exactly 40kv of course it can go up to 50kv or little higher.. so if i die at least you know how i did it hahaha
the secondary will be wound oveR ALL and so will have greater lenght of wire even maintaining the same turn count... so maybe it will naturally have a little higher voltage than the chokes...but it must be over 1,2kv so any current can really flow during the charge up... so secondary will have maybe 29awg or 28 or 24... will depend on the space i have left.. but secondary should have low current if so... as the amps are restricted by the electromagnetic field in a positive way all the amps that flow cancel most part in the chokes so add to the collapse only... anyway i guess there should be reall the lowest amps possible for the doubling to happen
as the chokes are more coupled to the core they should provide a higher collapse voltage than the secondary or something...
as you see in this diagram if the secondary has the same voltage as the chokes the thing wont go on
happy new year man i´m here working at it@!
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Test results
9 is the picture with the end of one choke connected to the start of the other... as they are inter layered.. the self resonant frequency seems to be around 16khz (this is the situation where the current was very high at 16khz more than 2 amps applying more than 10v...
the inductance of each choke is 689mh 1kg of 18awg divided into 5 interlayer of 111turns each choke than has 5 layers of 111 turns
picture 10
voltage signal at the neutral point of the half bridge at channel 1
voltage of the output of one choke
from this you see that the turn ratio still valid or so being around 33
picture 12 is the voltage take with the differential probe x200 connected to the ends of the chokes with circuit open on the starts
picture 11 with starts closed circuit...
this was consuming 130ma rms including 15ma of the half bridge driver ic... applying around 60v arrive 29,5v rms across the primary
impedance measured by lab view is aproximatedly 450ohms but it measure from the 60v in before the voltage drop of the diode and it also had the half bridge driver using the same ground point after the sensing resistor of 5mohm that is pluged on labview diferential inputs...
i will create a second sensing resistor to add to the half bridge at the neutral point... so that i can do the measurement with more accurancy.. i´m certain that the value can be wrong that is because the capacitors charge in series on the half bridge from the source but are alternately discharged in parallel to the coil such that the real current being switched in this case is not passing thru the pll sense resistor that goes to labview.....
connecting the chokes at this freq of 5khz bring the current to around 330ma droping the voltage of course because of the limited source i have.. if i increase up to 16khz this increase a lot up to 3 amps.. and on...
the current only behave strange at audio freq with the chokes connected from end of one to the start of the other...
the same is expected for bifilar case
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Meyer says that covalent bounds are strictly electric in nature and that because as atoms spin cancel each other in a manner that their magnetic field is zero...
than he goes and use a ferro magnetic wire...
what does a ferromagnetic wire conduct other than electricity?
what danydanfor regarded about the electrode material?
somehow if you get a core with 1 tesla for sake of easy of calculation in an area of 1 square inch than you get a wire going out of the coil wont this magntic field be directed along the wire? in the same direction of the electric field... or in the oposite direction as the wire goes one way or another from the core to the load for example...
one can arg well the wire were very thin... than i would have no words for it...
http://www.elkadot.com/index.php/en/books/chemistry/covalent-bond
my question is ... if the spins opose each other is that because its the situation of lowest energy possible... if we could split the spins with a permanent field the covalent bound would be broken if the magnetic field was to be exceeded..
there is an effect i looked some years ago called zeemman
https://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/virttxtjml/spectrpy/nmr/nmr1.htm
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http://www.mun.ca/chem/1010/notes/Chapter_7web.PDF
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this is the most impressive chemistry source of info i ever saw online
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/index.php
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/demos/index.html
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_shell
http://www.chem4kids.com/files/elements/008_shells.html
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch6/quantum.php
http://mcat-review.org/electronic-structure-periodic-table.php
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufbau_principle
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloid
http://sciencewatch.com/nobel/predictions/titanium-dioxide-photocatalysis
pure water is a dielectric
tap water have ions
a capacitor is not former by ions or only dielectric
it takes metalic plates to get charge on...
water is the plates or is the dielectric in this case in your opinion?
i mean we could suspend a dielectric within water that has a dielectric from 1 to 3000 or metalic particles... what would do what?
to have a spark on oil you need it to be dirty
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from what i understand the ions in the water are distributed equidistant from one another giving a net electric field of zero although there is around 25kv/mm holding them to each other at 1nm distance or so...
so if we dont apply a voltage difference greater than this it wont do a thing to the matrix other than make the dual layer absorbed ions do discharge at the respective electrodes...
if you get a bubble in a dielectric its said that the bubble will create a high electric field zone... this is because it will have a dielectric constant smaller than that of the dielectric observed.
bubbles can carry charge away also because of that... but only to the point where the cell is so positive that it will not allow more charges to go.... you need to provide for charges to make it keep carrying charge away if we wanted an ionized gas stream for ex...
this tell me that if maybe water had some kind of electrolyte that could act not as an ion but as metalic neutral points in the water this could maybe neutralize the ions as for the metalic would take both ions and glue on.. forming dipoles... since its dielectric is much greater than the water... this dipoles would be much harder to break than water if in nano scale
basically instead of a matrix of ions it would become a matrix of dipoles formed by the ions and the metalic nano particles...
so as you see if we add sand or something it will alter the charateritics.. maybe some nanopowder..
the benefit i see is that now the matrix get very relaxed the dipoles will make company to the rotation of the water dipoles and it will create a cooperative action in this case allowing the bulk water to become more alligned.. also i think that maybe the metalic particles are able to be a donor and receptor of electrons to get the molecules of more bulk to have a surface to interact...
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catalytic converters on cars use platinum, if your looking for some thing to play with
maybe a dumped car will still have the CC on it ....but chances are it will be missing ... for scrap value
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Yes man the catalyser has rodium and palladium also... in youtube is easy to learn how to extract...
i have here platinum in liquid form already in the form of hexacloroplatinic acid and also palladium chloride.. i bought all this for another project.. i yet have a palladium electrode (6grams) foil for plating it... but i didnt got the platinum electrode required for plating it the money ended hahah...
the chemicals are siting on the lab... not used yet for years... i had to use the licence from the university to get access to this... is restricted material and so to buy it i had to buy it like if it was for the university... lot of work to get it..
it was very hard learning all the electrochemistry formulas to be able to create the plating solution... i get many types of acids and bases here because of that.,.. also ph meter and termometer...
as i could not find enought info to use the platinum correctly i didnt used it.. there is some 12grams of platinum if i recall well
wish someone pops up with some help on that
i was looking into sea water content just this morning
check this ions in sea water
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_ions_in_aqueous_solution
Meyer said sea water could be used...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_orbital_diagram
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http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6694/2/3/1731/htm
http://www.iaster.com/uploadfolder/2DesignandEvaluationofTypeCPulseFormingNetworkGM11Feb14Copy/2Design%20and%20Evaluation%20of%20Type%20C%20Pulse%20Forming%20Network%20GM11Feb14%20Copy.pdf
http://www.kipt.kharkov.ua/conferences/ihepnp/16workshop/PDF/al9_325.pdf
https://inspirehep.net/record/1314330/files/mopme070.pdf
http://uspas.fnal.gov/materials/11SBU/PPE_BasicTopologies.pdf
http://web.missouri.edu/~kovaleskis/ApplEMandEP/Lectures/Lecture-5.pdf
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I've read that lead dioxide works as well as platinum. It's the red stuff in the car battery plates. You Tube shows it's easy to plate it onto a carbon rod, treated with nitric acid. But if you get the carbon from a flashlight battery, be aware that the manganese oxide is nasty stuff and can cause kidney failure.
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I've read that lead dioxide works as well as platinum. It's the red stuff in the car battery plates. You Tube shows it's easy to plate it onto a carbon rod, treated with nitric acid. But if you get the carbon from a flashlight battery, be aware that the manganese oxide is nasty stuff and can cause kidney failure.
wow thats nice... i tried to plate over stainless steel... but it didnt worked as stainless steel has a layer of oxygen and it does not glue on... so i made a treatment to the plates with nickel stricke material this way i could get the palladium on it... but as i could not get pue platinum foil as was too expensive i didnt proceeded.. the palladium foil costed at the time 200$ 6g... platinum was over twice the price...but not only that platinum have more mass than palladium per volume... so fo a decent foil it would need more than just twice the grams ... this is very interesting,,,,
my intention was to create a um layer on the plates,... the plates were 30 cuted in laser and have a copper termination soldered with silver soldering... than treated with nickell
this project is stop until i find someone who know very well about chemistry and maybe give a help with platinum foils... for now i´m out of money to play like that..
i wont try using batery, but thanks for the advice man i didnt knew it was so so dangerous!
i dont even have the proper safe equipment... is very dangerous dealing with pure amonia hydroxide and HCL ... i have saw how danger it can be but i stoped this project when i broken my hand and could not make it properly for 3 months because of that than my life turned all around... and i had to get back to the old idea!
Probably would be better some other type of material as the base... but i got stainless steel because this project was together with an inventor here in brazil who i worked with... in the willing to put his device out that we expend all this money.. around 20,000 reais went into it.. back in 2012 around 10k$ i had a friend who helped me to get the money together... but the old man didnt knew how to plate the chemicals than i had to find out but when i did it money was already gone and the old man went to another country to go on with another project.. so i gave up on this and got my CC cores and some neodimium magnets back so i could use in my reasearch...
i also read that lead act as a catalyser too.. there are others too but platinum and palladium have specific afinities and that was the point of the project...
manganese and barium oxides also can form polar electrodes...
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You can buy an electrically powered ink pen which contains the necessary chemicals to plate platinum. In fact, a variety of pens are available, for plating different metals. I'm attaching the price list document, which I can't open since I don't have MS Office. Maybe someone who does have this software can open the file, then post a screen shot? If the price is right, this might help a lot of us.
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that would be wonderfull..didnt saw platinum on the list.. there were palladium and rhodium... i remember those pens, its good for jewlery...but the problem is that to cover a big area the pen wont work... my plates for example were 30cm in diameter... i was planing to make a 25um thickness layer,,,
i´m not sure if platinum would do any good.... this project aimed very low voltage high current... the goal was to have up to 9000 amps at few milivolts...
now i´m into pulsing the water with my big vic...
i´m constructing today a ambient air lazer.. hoping it will work..
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would a process similar to anodizing be good for platinum ?
surely catalytic converters must be tin or steel with a very thin plating .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing
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no Massive... its a matrix of ceramic with the particles fine distributed on it..
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.464.4181&rep=rep1&type=pdf
http://www.finishing.com/427/46.shtml
http://www.materialstoday.com/metal-finishing/features/specialty-metals-platingpart-i/
some of the formulas i used can be found on this links but i got them from books at the university..
i had to choose the simpler so i could have all the chemicals required..
if i had more 1000$ i could get a decent piece of platinum to plate and make tests with it... is something i´m interested into...
from my understanding the platinum in the solution as goes off to the cathode the platinum come off from the anode...
the solution was like 0.1ph... if i remember well for the palladium solution
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http://rohs.exemptions.oeko.info/fileadmin/user_upload/RoHS_VII/Request_13/Attachment1__Platinized_platinum_electrodes.pdf