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Electrolysis => Electrolysis => Other => Topic started by: karebill on April 24, 2008, 02:50:55 am
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I’ve been testing a new fuel cell design and am wondering if I am figuring the efficiency of it properly. I am getting 1.5 litters every 15 sec. or 6 litters a min or 360 litters an hour. I am at 13.2 volts and 49 amps. I think this is 646.8 watts of power consumed. So if I’m right that’s 646.8 / 360 = 1.80/watts/litters. Is this correct? And how much power will a 100% efficient unit use. Thanks for the help.
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first thing first, are you using an additive? this means something to me..
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Hi KB,
I made a calculation for you:
Liters: 1,5
Seconds: 15
Volts: 13,2
Amps: 49
LPM: 6
Watts: 646,8
Wh/L: 1,8
mL/W/h: 556,59
Percentage compared to Faraday: 130,9%
That is impressive!
I ll gues you used some additives in your cell.
Can you publish some pictures?
Br
Steve
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I am using 2 tsb. of KOH. The cell is a design unlike anything that I have seen published. Its size is 18" long x 10"wide x 1" tall. It makes very little heat unless you add kOH to raise the amps to 75 amps or higher. I will be going out of town tomorrow for the weekend but will post pictures early next week, but I won’t release the inner working until I try the addition of the pulsed alternator on this design. You guys are going to love how simple this design is.
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To correct an error thats 2 table spoons of KOH.
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And I should add I’m using a gap of .25" between anode and cathode.
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I am using 2 tsb. of KOH. The cell is a design unlike anything that I have seen published. Its size is 18" long x 10"wide x 1" tall. It makes very little heat unless you add kOH to raise the amps to 75 amps or higher. I will be going out of town tomorrow for the weekend but will post pictures early next week, but I won’t release the inner working until I try the addition of the pulsed alternator on this design. You guys are going to love how simple this design is.
Ok sir :D
Looking forward to your pictures!
I like the KISS methode...have a nice weekend!
br
Steve
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Hi KB,
I made a calculation for you:
Liters: 1,5
Seconds: 15
Volts: 13,2
Amps: 49
LPM: 6
Watts: 646,8
Wh/L: 1,8
mL/W/h: 556,59
Percentage compared to Faraday: 130,9%
That is impressive!
I ll gues you used some additives in your cell.
Can you publish some pictures?
Br
Steve
you cant go by farraday, comparing your output to what farraday says means nothing, the only way it would mean something is if you used the same fuel cell farraday used, if you use the cell he used then you can use his math, till then you have to use common math and common sense, farraday can produced 1 liter using 2.4 watts, farraday did this with his cell, if he was to use yours things would change.
don't apply farraday with an additive, and don't apply farraday to a cell that farraday did not base his measurements on, also do not apply farraday to Pulsed dc because farradays law with hydrogen is for his cell using pure dc. when you use pulsed things change.
the resistance, conductance, and capacitance of the cell all changes per different cell, farraday cant be applied to some cell out there you have.
if you want to calculate how efficient you are you must turn your gas and oxygen into watts, then you compare the amount of gas in watts you produce to what you put in, this will give you a percentage of what you have done.
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i wish i could do it for you, but i don't know how to convert gas into watts or i would..
if you produce 5 liters of hydroxy using additives, the power in watts would be different than if you produced 5 liters of hydroxy with no additives. so even though you produce the same amount of gas with additives that someone else produces without without additives, the power in watts the gas makes would be different even though both are 5 liters.
how to turn gas into watts i don't know, so therefor we do not know how to calculate the efficiency yet..
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Here are the pictures of my cell. Today I built and ran it on the pulsed alternator design with tap water and no additives. My results are 1.3 liters/min at 14.6 amps and 26.2 volts. all numbers taken at the cell. I put two 12 volt batteries in series to produce 24 volts and the output was far less.
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hrmmm,, i would think you should be producing around 600 cc's a min, just over half an liter...
what is your cell setup again? you say you used no additiveS? if what you say is true then it is a record breaker! we must investigate!
could you give more detailes about your cell setup? also, are you sure you measured the voltage across the cell, and the amps going to the cell? also is that a 12 volt alternator?
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Flush your cell out for a good time and re run the test, dude you are on to something... keep flushing water threw your cell and get back to us on the new measurments when you think your cell is clean of additives. Also, what is your gap size?
if possible, include gas output with and without the water pump so we can tell if its doing anything.
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Very interesting design, I LIKE IT ;D
Space is at a premium in my car. I would like to recreate your cell. Can you give more details on it. Is it 316L, 304 , or what. What size tubing, and what length. And I like the recirculation pump, No cells choking. Nice fresh ideas. Pretty cool man 8) Can't wait for more details
Spike
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I re measured the gap between the tubes. The ID of the larger tube is .900" and the OD of the smaller tube is .870". That gives me a diff of .030" and div by two gives me a gap of .015" around the tube. With the water pump not running it abruptly stops producing gas. Iv been reading and building cells behind the scene for about 9 months but none of the plate designs or any that require the bubbles to leave on there Owen come close to the production of gas. I didn’t want to share the design but decided it would take many to break the oil bank NOT JUST ONE. I flushed the system three times while I set up the pulsed alternator and used the oscilloscope to tune it to your directions. Tomorrow I will run the numbers again. I was shocked how cool the system stayed with 4vdc per cell. More info tomorrow.
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Got a question is the inner tube perferrated and blocked off so the water can flow through the gap between the inner and outer tubes or am I missing something in your design from the way it looks the water will flow straight through the inner tube ???
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Hydrocars I forgot to add that it is a 60-amp 12-volt ford alternator. I did have to change the stator wiring to match your drawings. The voltage and amperage were taken at the cell. The only problem is to get it primed at the first start up I have to give the rotor a few volts to get it going. Spike hold for a bit this is a prototype I made to see if it would work. It is made of 304 that I had laying around and the ends are plumbing parts that I machined to fit, tight tolerance due to the gap being so small. Now that it has proven itself I am going to put 4 tubes inside them selves to improve performance and drop the volts down. My only problem with putting a design out is those greedy people who want to make greed money from other people’s work. But if it for your own playing I will help all I can. Hydro have you series cells to 2 volts with the alternator set up yet or will the amps drop so low that it wont produce much. Target there is a cork in each end about 3" down with epoxy on top of that (If you don’t put the epoxy the corks will get pushed over the exit holes) which forces the water to go through four small holes that I drilled in end to allow the water to enter and the exit holes are a little bigger on the other end. Time for bed will post more tomorrow.
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Aloha,
Karebill, you said "ran it on the pulsed alternator design".
Is there a diagram of this somewhere that can be viewed?
Bill
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i just cant see a 6 cell in series conducting? your gap is a little bigger than a hair? .030 gap is small like a needle. but i cant disagree because all your tubes are seperated., i am confused, i am like you, i do not want to give the technology to the ones that wants to make money with it, that is one reason i don't talk much.
then if you do post your findings, theres the fact that people will work on it, and not show their results, so thats another reason for not sharing not to mention that the dissbelievers will bombart you or ignor you.
i don't talk much because i dont want to get an argument started, but i will go out of my way and say if you produce what you say you produce, than you have enough to, you could say your setup is the impossible, i know of no one that has ever or can produce what you can produce given the power you are using with no additives.
but i feel your setup has additives lingering around causing the conduction, i wish you would have tested this before the additives. i am somewhat still skeptic because i have never seen a series sell work without additives.
if you are sure your cell works without additives, and you get what you say you get, then you have found the impossible.
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that still isnt that great compared to stans alternator he made all his gas with 24 watts measured at the cell
to be exact was
4.4 amps and 5.6 volts with 9 tubes
2.6 amps and 7.7 volts with 2 tubes
2.0 amps and 7.6 volts with 1 tube
the rotor imput was 1.5 volts and .25 amps huge difference from what you guys are doing his method was surgical not brute at all these number are a deffinate fact
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Hi karebill,
As one can see from the pics, this below is your setup.
you have a positivley pressurized cell.
Did you tried connecting it so to have negative water pressure in the cell ? you only have to modify your setup a little bit !
;)
HM
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Ok, there is another claim to back this claim up, for some reason its sounds like people has series cells working without additives? hrmmmm... the neat part is the guy backing this claim said he produces around 1.3 liters or something, he also said that is not exact measurements that he will have to confirm his gas output, thats just a ballpark figure. hr uses about 300 or more watts.
he is saying something about 10 neutrals and 8 neutrals, not sure what he means, but i am trying to get him to reply to this tread.
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Here are the pictures of my cell. Today I built and ran it on the pulsed alternator design with tap water and no additives. My results are 1.3 liters/min at 14.6 amps and 26.2 volts. all numbers taken at the cell. I put two 12 volt batteries in series to produce 24 volts and the output was far less.
So this is a +nnnnn- cell?
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Today I got a new drive pulley. The old one was running the alternator at around 2500 rpm and the new on will run the alternator at 3400 rpm. I then ran the cell for 15 min then changed the water. I repeated this another two times. Here are some numbers that I got from different voltage and amp settings. I didn’t tune the pulse circuit to the recommended pulse. For these test the cell is wired 6 cell series. (#1) 25 VDC 3 AMPS 1 min 15 sec 1/2 liters. (#2) 33 VDC 5.3 AMPS 45 sec 1/2 liters. (#3) 40 VDC 8 AMPS 35 sec 1/2 liters. (#4) 38 VDC 8 AMPS 30 sec 1/2 liters. I then changed the cell to 3 series cells 3 parallel cells and changed the water again. (#1) 12 VDC 23 AMPS 40 sec 1/2 liters. (#2) 10 VDC 22 AMPS 41 sec 1/2 liters.
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One thing I noticed that when I used brute force with KOH I got large bubbles. With the alternator I get small foamy super white bubbles. Pochintwin that is a series cell. Hydrogenmask I put it that way because when doing brute force theirs more gas then water on the discharge side and the pump wouldn’t pump it. Mrgalleria, the pulsed alternator set up is in our alternator section. I have a few ideas to try I will post more later.
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that still isnt that great compared to stans alternator he made all his gas with 24 watts measured at the cell
to be exact was
4.4 amps and 5.6 volts with 9 tubes
2.6 amps and 7.7 volts with 2 tubes
2.0 amps and 7.6 volts with 1 tube
the rotor imput was 1.5 volts and .25 amps huge difference from what you guys are doing his method was surgical not brute at all these number are a deffinate fact
no topsy, stan used 10 watts to the primary side of the transformer to run his car, he also used a 2 thousand watt motor to do it. Also the only information about stans Water fuel cell is found on page 60 of the document floating around, he says he used 12.5 volts and 40 amps 500 watts to the fuel cell wich produced 7 liters of gas. I wish i could say more.
if you guys are producing what you say you're producing without additives, then more power to ya. if this is so, then i can assure you if stan was alive this would get his attention! your production is wacked, i just have to see it to believe it.
Poc should be posing his setup etc,, he to has a setup that is mind throwing like yours, if what you guys have works like you say then this technology just got a major makeover.
if you happen to run across this information again topsy, let me know cause we wanna see what you're referring to.
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50v
7.5a
375 watts
0.15L
8.5 sec
1.07lpm
tap water only NO additives
plate config +nnnnnnnnnn-nnnnnnnn+nnnnnnnn-nnnnnnnn+nnnnnnnn- etc
69 plates
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there you go obiwan dig in!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq4eTC8rkcg
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This is a comperison of results I collected from this thread. Please correct me if there are any mistakes.
Hm
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Thats over my head!
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i guess im wrong according to that page :)
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Have you guys seen what John Aarons is doing on hydrogen tap. The only problem is he is using an additive.
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Iv been playing with frequencies the past week and have made some progress. First I’m now powering my alternator with a car stereo amplifier that I fee a full wave rectifier to convert the signal to DC. I am sending the frequency to the amp through my laptop computer. The software will let me do just about anything. The best numbers I got so far are using a lugarithmic sweep from 1000HZ to 10000HZ in 30 MS duration and using a sine wave instead of a square wave. Hydro has converted me to a tap water only tester as a challenge. I am getting 1/2 Liter in 23 sec using 26 amps and 11.58 volts at the cell. My voltage to the rotor is 3.8 volts and .4 amps. If I put much more it stalls the drive motor. My cell gets the best output in a 3 series 3 parallel setup. Still it sucks knowing im still 6 liters/min short to stan the man. I know its possible and its probably very simple.....
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I didn’t quite explain that right. IM taking the signal from the output of the amp then into a full wave rectifier to convert it to dc. Here is the freq. pattern IM using. The 30 ms is the one IM using to produce hydrogen and the 1000ms is slowed down so you can get an idea of what it is doing. You might have to loop it.
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KB
I've been gathering 316L tubing, I got enough 1" X 10", Almost enough 3/4"X 10", Still trying to scavage some 1/2" X 12". The only problem is my gap will be 1.5mm. If I find enough 304L , I can get my gap down to .75 to .8 mm.
This is how I am going to build my new cell, Let me know what you think.
Spike
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That’s going to be a neat design. Is the center tube going to be connected to any power or is it a waste plate? What are you going to make the end plugs out of? The big problem I have is I used methacralate epoxy to glue it together but if I put it under 10 psig or so it starts leaking and its not easy to disassemble and re glue. That will be interesting to see what the larger gap will do. I am in the process of making more cells myself. I want to see if 12 will improve the output.
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KB
This is how I plan on setting it up. But I would like to try it out under a vacuum with a valve before the cell to vary the psi , and under pressure, to see if there is a difference. How many gpm is your pump.
Spike
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Nice design Spike, You can still connect a flange on top of the tubes, and one to the bottom of the tubes. However if you apply high water pressure caps may pop out. Look this might be of interest to you : ) without fearing of caps poping off ;)
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Hydrogenmask
Good idea, If I mill the ends out of at least 1" thick teflon blocks, 2" if I can find some. I can press it all together. I'll keep this in mind, Thanks
Spike
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with a car stereo amplifier that I feed a full wave rectifier to convert the signal to DC. I am sending the frequency to the amp through my laptop computer.
Hi Karebill. did you tried not to rectify the feeded signal to the rotor? The overall output from the six-pack rectifier would still be DC rectified
HyrogenMask
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I tried to go straight into the rotor from the amp but it would not excite. I had to convert it to dc for it to do anything.
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Hi Karebill, we need sine wave signals that are above the 0 volt line (fig B) to do that modulation properly. You can not do that with with a car audio amplifier because signals are always AC coupled to ground (fig A). This would cancel out in the rotor inductance as you already noticed.
This modulation thingy remineds me Andrea Puharich. I beleave Meyer copied a lot of Andrea`s work.
look at the waveforms in here
http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm
hmask
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That is why I used the full wave rectifier after the output of the amp. I hooked the oscope up to it and it puts out a very clean waveform, exactly the frequency that the computer is showing it to be in pure dc.
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Try connecting an low voltage isolated dc supply in series with the amp output to obtain waveform as figure B
hmask
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I dont understand why I need to add a power supply in series with the amps output. When I view the output with a scope it already looks like fig B.
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what are you trying to do karebill? i have not been following this topic that close.
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If you remove the bridge from the output of the amp, you will see fig A on the oscope.
If you add a let say 5v dc supply in series with the output of the amp, you would see the same sinewave but shifted to the 5v mark. Fig B.
Now if you hook that 'shifted full sinewave' to the rotor, you would be able to observe a smaller sinewave running on a larger carrier sinewave (produced by the alternator.) at the stator when alternator is running.
Ths is very close to some waveforms on Andria`s patent.
Try verieng both carrier wave(alternator) and feed signal frequencies ;)
HM
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I did some test and I do see that the rectifier does change the wave by reducing the voltage or dB. These pictures are all at 200 Hz. The rectified wave is in the first picture. The second pic is the wave straight from the amp. The third pic is with 4 vdc in series. Why if I add that 4 volts does it carry the whole wave above the 0-volt lie and change it to dc? I will try with the alternator when I get it reassembled. Thanks for the help.
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Hydrocars or anyone that has used oscilloscopes much, when you put a signal into the rotor should it look the same coming out of the stator? Today I played around with different frequencies and I can see the wave going into the rotor with my scope. The problem is that I can’t find any clear frequency waves coming out of the stator. Tomorrow I will try my Lawton pulse circuit and see if it’s any different.
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well, no the signal comming from the stator is different than the signal put into the rotor.
you can pulse the rotor with square waves and the stator will show some form of sine waves depending on the electronics used to pulse the rotor. 98% of the circuits on the internet is single pulses into the rotor, so if you was to hook a timer and fet to the rotor what you would see on the oscilloscope to the rotor would be a half sine wave then it would drop like a discharg wave. it would look like a hill on the left side and a slide on the right. this is the 98% single sided square wave pulse.
this is because the square wave will charge the coil, and coils have resistance,, therfor it takes time to charge a coil to its peak. This is where you see the half sine wave, now when the pulse is removed you will see a discharge wave from the rotor, it looks like a slide, kinda like a hook. On the stators output you will always see full sine waves.
Single phase is single phase, when you use the timer with a fet to pulse a rotor you are pulsing at half phase, not even 1 phase.
what you would see on the oscilloscope when on the rotor is the timer making half phase wich replicates the ("first half of the sine wave"), the ("fet will switch off") and the rotor will create ("back emf"), the ("right hand side of the sine wave"). but its not a sine wave, ("its a dishcarge wave,") from the rotor discharging.
the alternator has a 3 phase output, even if its full wave rectified, so if you was to hook a oscilloscope to the stator then you will see 3 waves. each wave rides ontop of the other, Google 3 phase sine wave to find a picture of what this looks like. There will be a time when you get square waves from the stator with 3 phase DC harmonics on the top. confusing enough?
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i would like to add, to those of you using my circuit, as i said it is half phase, not even 1 phase. you take this circuit and you make it 1 phase, your gas production will go up even higher, i think i got this effect at resonant, but if i would have used the 1 phase circuit wich is very complicated then i would have gotten even better results.
when you only pulse 1 side of a transformer thats hooked to the cell, well your only making so much gas off that pulse, if you add an adjasent primary pulse Unlike what ("everyone") has been doing, gas production will rise.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:5-stgYQIgGTPBM:http://knowledgepublications.com/doe/images/DOE_Eectrical_Science_Three-Phase_AC.gif
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Hi Karebill.
set a frequency of 2khz on the amplifier , hook a 4v supply in series and connect to the rotor. Disconnect the 6pack rectifier from the stator. Spin the alternator , Check what`s on one of the 3 phases of the alternator with the oscope. post a pic of it please.
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Hydrogenmask I cant easily unhook my diode pack because they are internal (Too days ago I modified my alternator like the mer wfc test drawing to see if it made a difference. Mine is now a 3 pack I removed the other three and have a neutral tap off the center) I will add a test wire before the diode to view it and post pictures this weekend. I think if the 4v supply in series works there should be no reason I couldn’t duplicate a three or four phase freq. signal to send to the rotor using all four channels of the amp.
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keep up your good work karebill, testing is understanding!
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(Too days ago I modified my alternator like the mer wfc test drawing to see if it made a difference. Mine is now a 3 pack I removed the other three and have a neutral tap off the center)
This is the connction you are using now Karebill ?
Without the resonant charging chokes and with only 3 diodes?
hm
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Yes that is the setup I haven’t had time to play with it yet but will this weekend.
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(Too days ago I modified my alternator like the mer wfc test drawing to see if it made a difference. Mine is now a 3 pack I removed the other three and have a neutral tap off the center)
This is the connction you are using now Karebill ?
Without the resonant charging chokes and with only 3 diodes?
hm
Hi bill,
The neutral wire, i call it the 4th wire . When you go and use it, you will see a drop in voltage. So you also will get less amps.
br
steve
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Karebill I just saw your tube design in detail with the flowing water.
You are not using spacers in your design?
If you are not then perhaps you are getting a standing wave in the water column between inner and outer pipes or the flowing water increases gas production?
thanks again
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Hi Karebill.
set a frequency of 2khz on the amplifier , hook a 4v supply in series and connect to the rotor. Disconnect the 6pack rectifier from the stator. Spin the alternator , Check what`s on one of the 3 phases of the alternator with the oscope. post a pic of it please.
Here are some pictures of the 2000hz + 4vdc into the rotor and checked from the stator defore the diodes
first pic is 2000hz + 4vdc into the rotor
second pic is the stator with 0hz + 4vdc
third pic is the stator with 2000hz + 4vdc
Its hard to see in the pic but there are lots of small waves following the large wave.
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I` think that is close. Can you focus a little more on the waveform to see the superimposed smaller wave.
below I used that program and generated 2 tones, a 5000hz waveform superimposed on a 400hz carrier (generated by rpm of alternator)
Try vary the frequency from 1000hz to 10000hz and see if production gets better at some point.
The problem we have with the soundcard generator is that we are not allowed to get a clean waveform when setting above 10khz.
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I` think that is close. Can you focus a little more on the waveform to see the superimposed smaller wave.
below I used that program and generated 2 tones, a 5000hz waveform superimposed on a 400hz carrier (generated by rpm of alternator)
Try vary the frequency from 1000hz to 10000hz and see if production gets better at some point.
The problem we have with the soundcard generator is that we are not allowed to get a clean waveform when setting above 10khz.
I get a clean waveform up to 21000hz then it starts going backwards. I don’t know why you only get up to 10000hz. It is all in the soundcard I’m guessing. I can see the waveform but the camera doesn’t show it clearly. I took a dozen pictures to get on to show up that clear. That picture is three tones 2000hz waveforms superimposed on the larger one. Almost like a 2000hz 3 phase ridding the carrier. Try using three tones of any number but matching and post a picture of it.
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Yes maybe it is the soundcard that I need to change.
That picture is three tones 2000hz waveforms superimposed on the larger one. Almost like a 2000hz 3 phase ridding the carrier.
Wow now that is strange. How could there be 3 waves on top, if we are measuring on One of the phases of the stator!
Things are getting complicated
Can you post a video of the signal on the oscope?
Try to set the oscope on a larger timebase setting.
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I think my scope is crapping out. Its doing some weird things. Anyone tried a computer USB scope.
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Yep i`m using a usb one.
this one
http://ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=178.0
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Hey there, i'm wondering where you all got your 2.4Wh/l from.
After Faraday's law the Voltage has nothing to do with the electrolysis, i am confused a bit.
I calculated it myself after the Faraday equation,
m/M = I * t / z * F
and i get Vh2o2 = I * t * 1,7425 * 10^(-4) litres/Coulomb, (same parts O2 and H2, which doesn't fit really... hm)
example: 1 Amp; 1 hour (3600s)
0,6273 litres < 2/3 litres
Someone one got more information on how to calculate the efficiency? Or how do i get to 2.4 Wh/l ?
edit: I found a good site for calculcating the efficiency: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3107.0
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KB's design is maybe what my ideal cell looks like, thumb up :).
I currently experimenting a cell with similar priciple, although I use up rising bubble to make the water flow. And I will put them all inside same container full of water (open bath version).
I use the same tube configuration. The negative electrode is small battery carbon. Single cell draw 0.2 Amps at 12 volts brute force electrolysis using tap water producing 2cc/minute gas .
The problem is the positive electrode can not keep up and corrode in hours. Fast corroding make a lot of debris and short circuiting cell, also make the water dirty very fast. I still never try using high grade stainless steel though.
I still looking for other easy to obtain metal that can at least hold for days. I plan to use 2 volts for actual run.