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Projects by members => Projects by members => Sebosfato => Topic started by: sebosfato on March 30, 2014, 08:40:22 am
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I would like to try to explain what i understand now by the bifilar coil...that meyer proposed.
Actually its function would be in my understanding simply to cause induction on each other as mutual effect. Since they form an electric circuit with the secondary but has no coupling to the primary due to the cancellation effect the secondary acts as secondary the primary acts as primary and the chokes acts like primary and secondary both but it inducts only to each other also because of the canceling effect.
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So basically the secondary input electric energy to it and the coils increase the electric field effecting the water by the cooperative induction effect...
Its clear that if you connect the chokes in bucking configuration they cause negligible voltage drop because the induction cancel each other... but having a capacitor that leaks current you could use this stress to significantly apply voltage fields with little amp consuming...
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The bifilar choke system is a feedback system not a simple inductive coils. Its a non inductive coil. Still it has some inductance. The coupling can be manipulated by changing the gap of the core or inserting a section of core inside the coils. The magic is all there.
The problem is understanding that their effect comes from the electromagnetic interaction.
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the capacitor is being discharged through the LC.. if I had a mosfet of some kind that closes instead of opening during pulse on I would throw out the core.. only some coils are needed for what Im talking about.. but I can't find anything that works like that.. the reason I would put three coils like that is to completely damp the oscillation of the LC so no opposite charge will escape to the other plate.
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I'm going to describe better my idea to see if i understand it better...
The canceling self induction is accomplished by having the coils exactly the same size and perfect coupled.
Resistance of the wires distance and gaps between the coils can help reduce the coupling. Reducing the coupling makes the coils acts like inductors again but coupled to each other to some degree.
This is the key.
I thin the best design would be each inductor wound in a of a C core and the other on the other C core so the coils can have a gap between each other and this way the coupling can be perfectly adjusted.
The Dc current in the secondary completely cancel out its magnetic field since is applied thru the central tap so it does not interfere nor saturate the core induction capabilities while if they are are at different portions of the core two regions of bucking magnetic fields is going to be created that might interact with primary magnetic field.
A magnetic shunt could also be used to try to decouple the coils or the secondary from the primary. it could be a good idea.
an inductor store energy in the form of magnetic field when there is current flowing in it. My idea is that the stray magnetic field of the dc current on the chokes will help decoupling them therefore increasing the induction somehow.
I also thought of other possibility of having two CC cores each with its choke, and to provide a coil that is shorted to its self and passes thru both cores... this way they could be maybe changed the game. I have to think about.
Illustration of the concept (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2863.0;attach=13412;image)
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2863.0;attach=13414;image)
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try this with very low frequency and an oscilloscope. - is inside + is outside cylinder
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try this with very low frequency and an oscilloscope. - is inside + is outside cylinder
Good point geon but whats the point of the electrons coming of from the ground? you still spend energy to move them in the coil.. that way..
I kind of see your point but than i guess the other coil should have similar approach.
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I have my reasons to put it like that... the dampimg of the LC should be very big or it needs other configuration.
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not charging the capacitor from source.. that's why I have ground there....
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Nice geon, please create a thread and post more info about your idea! You are very talented. Do you have a project section to post your threads? I guess we can create one for you.
I would like to reintroduce the concept of magnets and cores... i was looking into a tesla patent and i found him using the same idea, but he uses it to create a kind of rectifier using magnets and saturable core.
Basically in the current is going to be favored in one sense in respect to the other. Since the magnet is saturating the core the core it can't saturate more if the current is applied in one direction but in the other direction the field can be reduced in the core thereto restricting the amps...
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I'm using now one of tesla patents to check its effect.
Its basically a mean to rectify current without needing diodes so its a kind of self healing diode. there are limits however...
I'm trying the following diagram:
It needs two coils that are connected in such way that when it receives a positive pulse it generates a magnetic field that increase the saturation of a core that is already polarized by a permanent magnetic field. So in this direction the coil has less reactance, in the other direction the field cancel the other field and so its able to change the flux negatively and only reach the saturation well on the other side so the inductance is bigger.
Basically having the ac source divided in two paths like that you get dc imbalance in the two isolated circuits.
I was trying to get other possibilities but is kind of limited to it.
(http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2863.0;attach=13418;image)
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can you show me this tesla patent?
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http://www.teslacollection.com/tesla_articles/1889/western_electrician/thomas_edison/the_tesla_method_of_obtaining_direct_from_alternating_current
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has meyer ever used parallel plates?
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Of course but there was more juice in the bottle than we were told about. those test cels were like we use to say here in brazil just to english see!
the real thing was going on on the buggy that he show on operation.
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http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em/lectures/node56.html#e5.19
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html#c2
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capsph.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capeng.html
its really fuckin late in here...
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I was doing here my first test on te saturated ferrite...
The coil with no magnet has 380uH and with it has 58uh
so the reactance diference is not very big. I guess the saturation also don't change instantly when using permanent magnets but maybe with the electromagnet works better...
The secondary shorting switching diagram in the patent however i guess is the best since the core won't be at its saturation... with today electronics i fuss is possible to get there... at tesla time he used only synchronized rotating generators commutators and slip rings to achieve that..
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Its really sad to have to disassembly the things to construct other... Its very very sad. i wish i could maintain all the builds to compare and retest some time later with more knowledge.... unfortunately i have no money to build every time from new parts... a ferrite core like the one i use here costs 100 dollars each... i hardly got 6 ...
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if I'm not mistaken you can have induction with 0 B field with this type of coil winding
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Maybe if the B field is not zero you get different results...
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A bif coil.
What does it do in praktisch?
What does it offers me in a watercell setup?
I like your formula,s.
I started to re read the Horvath patents again last week.
His development time line is very very interesting.
He is the one that went for low voltage high amp pulses to high voltage pulses on his cell.
Meyer might have copied it...
The bifcoil is an component that holds a charge. Basically it holds 2 charges.
One in the saturated coil/core.
The other one in the capacitance of the 2 coils.
Meyer always stated that both values should in balance.
Charging the coil in such a way, you limit amps.
The discharge of that coil creates high voltage and high amps in a short periode.
Do that over a certain time periode and maybe we see a hughly charged watercapacitor...
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It only works if water is able to hold some charge.
And water does hold a certain amount of charge.
Just hit it gain with a discharge and the cell will regulate the speed, aka level of voltage input and amp flow.
At the end, amps rock.
High voltage create the path
..
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Thats the spirit.
Working out this concept mean try to mix high electric fields with high electromagnetic fields maybe to provide the amps?
I'm with the mindset that meyer actually did it in several different manners.
I guess the simpler he used only plain electricity to create the resonant action... probably from his variac and pulsing generator. I say this because its indeed possible to switch an electric field like i explained short time ago, especially in a capacitor.
But than it comes to the fact that meyer uses water as electron source in a circuit that he claim to be self sustained.
First the circuit is only self sustained if the energy coming in is from the water otherwise no self sustain would be possible.
Second knowing that, and knowing that the physics never found a way to amplify energy in any way i ends up to the only possibility being that meyer discover something physics was not even looking into.
He called it fuel cell, so it relies on the movement of ions and their discharge.. From his description it seems that the energy is applied from inside to outside of the capacitor.. When he says that he apply the electric field to the water molecules 90ยบ ahead of current.
I'm identifying how smart stan was... i;m not trying to complicate i'm trying to understand more...
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Is not only AC or DC i'm looking into.. just pulsed. but a pulse always reverts the polarity if inductive so somehow still considered ac.. .suming this to DC field you can switch the electric fields like i describe. .is an idea based or inspired on the description of the resonant action.
Other things i'm into are induction and electromagnetic fields in general applied to water cell ideal...
I think like you, Stan should not be a guide at all but only his words might be valuable because he creates the possibility to knew things to exist and be discovered or re discovered.
Great to have you guys debating here, i respect you pretty much too Mookie you and Steve and others active in experimenting reading studying and posting. I'm happy to be here.
Thanks
Br
Fabio
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Some possibility there is that if the pulse is not inductive... the voltage across the water will simply neutralize after pulse off so the energy gets into the molecules (absorption) , theoretically if we could charge as many times possible the water. the higher the frequency the higher is the current so i think its counter to the direction meyer gave.....
If you thin about apply a pulsed current makes a collection of charges on the electrodes.. given by capacitance and voltage applied. but when you reverse the voltage (inductive discharge) the current is absolutely restricted for that instant of time since the ions can't discharge... the only thing they can do is to be ballistically accelerated in the other direction. the description of resonant action. (gas on demand)
In water the ions do not actually travel... something i read some time ago says that water has a tunneling capability so the charge travels but the molecules ions structure changes in the way not moving... so basically theres no mass but the electron mass flowing thru the water molecules having some resistance in the way.. this is not the classical model anymore..
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but when you reverse the voltage
Why reverse the voltage (AC) ?
..Steve has it right.
Two nails in a bucket of water. High voltage / high amps. One direction (DC).
The idea is that first.. observing the waveform stan provided its not constant dc being applied... because those are graphs of voltage vs time across the cell. .
stan add that diode and i guess the real thing is not actually a diode at least not if you want to accomplish the things he mention... he describes the resonant action as the action of pulling back and forth the atoms and electrons in order to achieve gas on demand. This tell me two things. one is that analyzing the cell and if you apply dc the current has magiorly 3 limiting factors.... diffusion, transport and others polarization is the problem the electrodes covered with the gas get charged to a certain voltage relative to another. the atoms are not allowed to oscillate in this way... however if you could collect for say 95 % percent of the time a certain charge and than bang it with high voltage my best guess is that its going to cause a kind of avalanche effect... of very high probability to generate gas on demand.
It would even explain that the restriction of amps occur in the sense that the there is more product from the reaction than amps flowing in the circuit somehow..
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the massless dirac state of the electrons doesnt appy for water to my knowledge...
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the massless dirac state of the electrons doesnt appy for water to my knowledge...
i was looking to understand how the ionic transport occur in water and found something like that but i'm not sure about how much is true or not..
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I agree that electron transport in different materials can make a difference with conservative forces...
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...observing the waveform stan provided
OK ..I give up.
By that i mean the unipolar pulses... they always come back to zero. but when stan shows Va to Vn with the lines the zeros become negative pulses actually .. since i'm assuming theres a biasing voltage applied too.
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do you know what you need? you need this
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wish i could understand what you talk about.
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too many guests in here
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Yes thats what i talk about. ;D
I'm going to try the resonant action i'm proposing...
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well it did what it was supposed to do... you can have induction with zero field . ;) anyway bb
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what happened they stole your keyboards?
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Hello, i was taking a trip to calm my nerves...
I don't understand what you mean by induction having zero fields?
what told you that it was working?
without this information i cannot even understand what you did... or is trying to do...
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try it with square wave pickup bifilar
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your welcome
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what don't you understand ...the self cancelling coil is the primary the fields "cancel" each other out the currents run antiparallel but because the total field is non-uniform there's an emf induced in the bifilar coil... magnetic field can not be seen as a unity but every charge interacting with other charge.. the zero coil doesn't work as a pickup coil.. try it it takes 2 minutes to wind it...
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Well this conversation is just going on and on...
Lets make it simple..
2 coils of = wind on a core with opposite currents of equal magnitude will not create a magnetic field.. which means no inductance.. having only the impedance of the coppers resistance.
if the currents are unbalanced and one is more than the other then you will have a inductance by the higher magnitude current carrying coil..
if currents are in the same directions for the 2 coils then they both contribute to the total B field generated in the core..
If the winds are not equal and the gauge is not the same for the 2 coils then you run into more complexity for determining which coil will produce a higher H field for a given amount of amps through the coils.
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it's not as simple as that but I can be wrong well the magnetic field is stronger the closer you're in the center ... and yes things start to get complicated here but it's not as simple as adding the fields... I suggest you try it..
I don't know what but something is fried for sure.. although I get voltage readings from the pwm output and I have a snubber for bemf... anybody knows more about this? now there's nothing when I connect the self cancelling coil and when I connect regular pancake coil it goes up to 0.2V output and it went more before I now don't hear the buzz either... :-\
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magnetomotive force (mmf) = 0.4 * pi * number of turns * amps
H field = mmf/ magnetic path length (MPL)
H = (0.4 * pi * number of turns * amps) / MPL
so here we see H field (magnetizing force field) is all about transformer dimension, number of turns and amps
B = permeability * H
and here we see B field (magnetic field) is based on core characteristics (perm) and H intensity..
permeability is the measurement of how much H is needed to make x amount of B
higher perms means the B field intensity increases more with less H field input
EMI filters used in all modern day electronics is a filter used right at the input of raw AC mains power for the electronic device. typically following a emi filter is transient suppression then on to rectification to create around 180v DC
The EMI filter is 2 identical coils on one core.. that has opposite currents.. it is used to filter out imbalanced currents that typically come from radio interference.. the imbalanced current is typically HF and it encounters inductance since the imbalance trys to make a magnetic field the inductance shunts the current (filters the noise).. the balanced current does not experience inductance and only feels the resistance of the copper.. a EMI filter is a perfect example of what happens with opposite currents and what happens with imbalanced currents since its job revolves around that..
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Outlawstc is correct the field is zero inductions is zero. Now i see what are you doing geon.
Basically you have coils not canceling perfectly so they keep some inductance.
If you use a core it can be made to canceling more perfectly...
The idea of this thread was to discuss about the bifilar coil...
So maybe we could get back to that...
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My idea about the bifilar coil is that it acts like a sort of transformer but it works by one coil inducing in the other opposite voltages such that they actually cancel out. in total.
My idea is to maybe create imbalance in it by adding dc component to the current... or maybe add crossing capacitors...
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The fact is the bifilar coils are a mystery sometimes, sometimes we are sure about what should it do but geon is doing correct he is testing it.
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lets talk about it...
but before try to zero up what were wrote up to here for now...
i developed a new winding technic i would like you guys to try and see what it does...
one is just like tesla bifilar spiral... two bifilar wires forming a mono layer spiral
(much like the one Geon was posting about... but with a core) i did with copper strip and paper between and over the strips...
second is again like tesla but the bifilar is wound forming a two layer but the secret is every layer you must flip the bifilar wires alway on the same spot...
the third
it follow the spirit of the second but the coil is spread into a bobbin forming layers.. its important that the layers have positive wire of the bifilar right over the negative.. thats why a flip every end of layer will be needed... or reduce a turn every layer could work... maybe its better in this case
the fourth uses wires.. . they are wound in same direction but alternating layers...
there is always insulation between layers and they must be uniform and consistent..
this is my effort to increase the capacitance of coils... this coils will have the same proprieties of tesla first bifilar spiral.. which was later on discover to be a very high voltage generator... he sure knew!
basically i hope you do some tests over this coils i'm proposing and if you do we can talk about what your results.. good luck
they should be driven with a pulse width variable frequency generator with a half bridge...
i don't think more than 100 turns...
i'm thinking to use speaker bifilar bound wire.. problem is the insulation must survive the voltages involved
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Some times I ask myself, what if i'm just loosing my time..
Hope not!
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at least you are having fun...
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Yea bro! ;)
just a moment haha
i vector inversed my mind
wish we could make all kinds of coils and tests all them
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first tests here pretty disappointing... anythings can be wrong..