A green and clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => Timeshell => Topic started by: timeshell on January 16, 2013, 21:52:49 pm
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Is anyone familiar with the radiant charging circuit with Charles Seiler sells on his website? He also goes by the name supermuble. I bought the circuit from him a few years back and tried it out and it indeed does work on producing HHO with low current at decent production levels.
I started comparing waveforms from his circuit in simulation with the VIC circuit simulations and one thing that I have noticed that makes me think the most significant difference is that his circuit actually does produce a unipolar waveform. The peaks in the waveform go between 12V+ and 28V+ but never to back down to zero during the pulsing operation unlike the VIC circuit where it always seems to go at least back to zero if not reversing a little and then back up to its peaks.
Seems to me that not only do we need to keep unipolar pulses on the cell but also keep a consistent charge on the cell while we're pulsing it. As it is right now it seems that the cell is dissipating the charge between each pulse.
Incidentally, this is related to my topic about low impedance. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2426.0.html
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2409.msg22758.html#msg22758
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Timeshell,
I am more interested in the potential for building voltage, and how he determined his frequency. I agree that keeping SOME voltage going in is good, this whole GATING (stopping the pulses for some period) SHOULD be secondary to getting HHO production with low current consumption. (What is the max voltage across his water capacitor?)
The circuit below shows that if you TUNE the frequency just right, 12V eventually becomes 1+ MV... This is clearly IDEAL and UNREAL, but increasing voltage on EVERY pulse by more than it dissipates is the goal, is it not? Play with that circuit and change the frequency a bit. Just a few HZ makes a dramatic difference.
The second challenge with analyzing wave forms is that that they are often OUTPUT wave forms. The wave form I get for a Square wave, when it goes through a 1:10 step up transformer is NOT EVEN CLOSE to what I put in. Even a PULSE shows the eddy lines after the step up. Due to inductance, the wave form on the input side is altered! (Of course, if you are getting it right out of the controller. Great. I would ask to connect it to YOUR capacitor, to see if the tuning is a big piece?)
I say until you have amazing tuning and HHO production, then I would not GATE off the voltage pulses. Once you can produce the resonant wave, then gating has a benefit. But I view gating as a late stage optimization that Stan did. Especially when I see his older equipment.
On the circuit below, if you add a ZENER diode before the 330mH inductor. You wont get far on 12V. Change it to 24V, and you are back in the game. But it takes 12 Seconds (with 7,000 pulses per second),
to get up near 1MV... (but hey, 84,000 pulses of 24V is near 2MV).
Put in a regular Diode, and it does not work anymore. I keep reading about people getting 2xVoltage in the capacitor thinking this is the point of the LC circuit. I can't imagine all of this talk of resonance not sinking in.
You want HUGE voltage across the plates, pulsating with low current. (Pushing the swing at the playground). (If a diode goes in here, it better be Zener type, or it should go INTO the primary coil side. Although,
if you are using a MOSFET on the primary side for gating). Then there is no real reason to diode the circuit there. The MOSFET, when OPEN (not pulsing) will have the same effect as the diode. Of course, if you
have really long pulses you might need the diode, but I am thinking Spark Gap style pulses. Fast and Powerful. Long pulses through a step up transformer where rate of change is important, doesnt seem right.
But the pulsing you do, should be "positive" only, not putting negative voltage into the circuit (it seems to me that would wreak havoc on the performance). I just tested it. Sure enough, it has the opposite effect (pulsing -12V, after charging it up). (Notice that once running, if you set the Voltage to 0. It will keep running forever at the current voltage. Highly Ideal, but close to the goal)?
Also, Meyers has diagrams of this type of pattern. Like 1/3rd - 1/5th amplitude pulses in between full amplitude pulses. (Then again, I think Meyers had a diagram for everything EXCEPT the WORKING solution!) :-)
HTH,
Kirk Out!
PS: The values in the circuit represent my current cell. I am waiting for an OptoIsolator (so I dont fry any more equipment). By next week, I should have some solid test results, and hopefully a video. If not, a ton of questions, LOL.
A Well Tuned LC Circuit: Watch Voltage Crank up! (a la Tesla style)
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HI timeshell
Can You share circuit diagram of the radiant charging circuit to replicate and experinents please?
I also thinging that unipolar pulse is very important .
Thank timeshell
andy
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HI timeshell
Can You share circuit diagram of the radiant charging circuit to replicate and experinents please?
I also thinging that unipolar pulse is very important .
Thank timeshell
andy
I really would like to. However, since Seiler is selling this as a product, I don't feel comfortable pirating it. I will hint however that I have seen the circuit floating around a couple places including youtube.
TS
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Timeshell,
I am more interested in the potential for building voltage, and how he determined his frequency. I agree that keeping SOME voltage going in is good, this whole GATING (stopping the pulses for some period) SHOULD be secondary to getting HHO production with low current consumption. (What is the max voltage across his water capacitor?)
I'm sorry, but, at least according to my experiments, you are very wrong. The gated pulse is essential to making this whole thing work correctly.
Incidentally, I already get HHO at low current. I'm now working on getting more of it at low current.
See here. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2409.msg24070.html#msg24070
TS
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Timeshell,
I apologize for the confusion. Pulses are required. Gating (as I intended it), is turning off the pulses for a period of time. Or in your previous piece, significantly decreasing the amplitude.
Sorry for the confusion in terms. Yes, you have to PULSE the system, or it wont work. But turning off the pulses comes after you have it tuned and working well.
It sounds like you are at that stage. Congrats. (Gating, from my perspective, allows you to let the resonance work, and take a break. I think Stan said 5 seconds on and then he was able to let
it run for 95 seconds).
Thanks for the reference to your circuit. A few points. the CIR is missing the capacitor. And the frequency doesnt match the diagram (FYI, it was an easy place
to start).
Did you implement the 5 coil VIC or individual pieces? (This is becoming my most difficult sourcing piece)
Thanks,
Kirk Out!
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The circuit link link in this post:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2409.msg24070.html#msg24070
Is proof of concept. The frequency most certainly is correct for the values shown. The choke coil after the diode is the most important. With an inductance of 450mH and a cap of 25.67nF, the resonant frequency is 1047.156Hz.
Gating is not simply for 5 seconds or 95 seconds or arbitrary period of time. Looking again at the above circuit, the second AC supply triggers a relay to gate pulse the first one. Notice I have it set to 200Hz. Try this circuit and play with the pulse cycle. You will find at one frequency zone it will get the cap to maximize its charge.
Also, when I was referring to gated pulse, it was not with reference to the primary resonant frequency, it was specifically to the gated pulse. It is an essential component.
I have been experimenting regularly with these simulations for years now. I cannot go into all the detail of my experiments. However, I will not post anything without having as solid supporting evidence as I can provide. You will notice I have two kinds of topics in my thread, theory and knowledge base. These are to separate what I have proven with experience and what I perceive based on current understanding.
From my experience to date, the unipolar gated pulse is absolutely required. From my experience to date, coils of very low resistance are required. However, I have not been able to get it to work in the context of the VIC circuit yet, which is why I still have it labeled as theory.
I am using my own custom wound 5 coil VIC.
TS
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Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,that means drowing amps,that means plain electrolysis,that means restricting the voltage and alowing amps,that fenomenon is tested by me with real coils,no theories no nothing.For ex.take a flyback tr.pulse it to its peak voltage,aproach its leads to check for voltage,then hook its secoundary to a choke of any size with 18gauge wire,(like Stans vic),you will notice that on the other side of the chokes you will not have an arc between the chokes leads,plain and simple,thick wire acts as a resistor,thats why HV transf. have their secoundary build with very thin wire..B.r.
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Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,
Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source. And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.
See recent discussion. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370
And another thing, THIN wire is resistive. That's why it heats up when too much current runs through a wire. A thicker wire would not heat up when a thinner wire would because the thicker wire is LESS resistive.
TS
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Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,
Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source. And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.
See recent discussion. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370
TS
I read it,i understand...restrict the amps on the pr. side to not be drawn by the ''heavyer'' chokes.Ts i always wonder how an earth you wound 5 strips of wire side by side?In a bif setup you bend the start leads and begin winding...but on 5 strips when you complete a wind how do you arange the start leads.The only thing i can think of is havind 5 bobins side by side on a ferite rod for example,with start and finish leads coming out of each ones..
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Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,
Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source. And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.
See recent discussion. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370
TS
I read it,i understand...restrict the amps on the pr. side to not be drawn by the ''heavyer'' chokes.Ts i always wonder how an earth you wound 5 strips of wire side by side?In a bif setup you bend the start leads and begin winding...but on 5 strips when you complete a wind how do you arange the start leads.The only thing i can think of is havind 5 bobins side by side on a ferite rod for example,with start and finish leads coming out of each ones..
Actually, I didn't wind them side by side in that case. I just wound them together as a bundle. This transformer acted as a 1:1 transformer. 4 of the strands were combined to form the primary side, connected to the cell and the positive of the DC source on one side, connected to the positive side of the diode and a power transistor on the other. The diode negative connected to the other side of the cell. The secondary of the transformer, single strand, was simply a trigger for the transistor to turn on and off the current to the primary as it charges and discharges. What would happen is the primary would charge by the DC power, which would in turn charge the secondary trigger. The trigger would trip the base of the transistor and stop current flow to the primary from the DC source. Now with the primary charged and unable to discharge to the power source, it instead discharges as a high voltage pulse to the cell. Once discharged, the trigger lets go of the transistor and allows the primary to charge again and the cycle repeats.
That is the extent that I will describe it. I do not wish to step on Seiler's toes. Check out Bedini circuits for some direction too as it is very similar.
TS
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Hy TS,from what i understand you say the chokes must have lower impedance,that means thicker wire,
Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, exactly why I've done in Seilers circuit, and how I got 800V spikes from a 12V voltage source. And NO that doesn't mean high current, assuming you limit the input current the correct way.
See recent discussion. http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg24370.html#msg24370
TS
I read it,i understand...restrict the amps on the pr. side to not be drawn by the ''heavyer'' chokes.Ts i always wonder how an earth you wound 5 strips of wire side by side?In a bif setup you bend the start leads and begin winding...but on 5 strips when you complete a wind how do you arange the start leads.The only thing i can think of is havind 5 bobins side by side on a ferite rod for example,with start and finish leads coming out of each ones..
Actually, I didn't wind them side by side in that case. I just wound them together as a bundle. This transformer acted as a 1:1 transformer. 4 of the strands were combined to form the primary side, connected to the cell and the positive of the DC source on one side, connected to the positive side of the diode and a power transistor on the other. The diode negative connected to the other side of the cell. The secondary of the transformer, single strand, was simply a trigger for the transistor to turn on and off the current to the primary as it charges and discharges. What would happen is the primary would charge by the DC power, which would in turn charge the secondary trigger. The trigger would trip the base of the transistor and stop current flow to the primary from the DC source. Now with the primary charged and unable to discharge to the power source, it instead discharges as a high voltage pulse to the cell. Once discharged, the trigger lets go of the transistor and allows the primary to charge again and the cycle repeats.
That is the extent that I will describe it. I do not wish to step on Seiler's toes. Check out Bedini circuits for some direction too as it is very similar.
TS
Ok,i understand...
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Timeshell,
I just simulated and found the updated resonant frequency and came back to post when I found your reply. It gets up to 31KV.
I posted my edited script below. (for whatever reason the first line of the script I downloaded prevented me from editing the frequency.
It was very strange). Also, the link took me to a couple of diagrams/circuits. I might have grabbed the wrong one circuit. It doesnt match the
second (black background gating/relay) circuit. I will build that later and play with it.
Anyways, thanks for sharing that. And sorry for the confusion over the terminology on Gating. Part of the problem in understanding Stans work was knowing what he REALLY MEANT.
Thanks for clarifying theory vs. experience.
I will work through some more things before I chime in again...
Thanks for sharing.
Kirk Out!
Tuned version of .CIR file of TimeShell (does not match the relay based circuit, I will push that out after I analyze/test it in the sim).
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Can you attach the actual file? I'm using the iPad version of iCircuit and I cannot paste your file definition in it directly.
Yes, the other link just had the schematic. Enough detail was on it to recreate it in the simulator. Can you also provide an image of yours?
TS
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Here you go. For me, it is far easier to cut/paste, sorry about that.
Kirk Out!
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I started comparing the 8XA circuit diagram to the VIC coil and also to Charles Seilers radiant circuits diagram. Charles Seiler's radiant circuit is very similar to the 8XA design, specifically in how the WFC is connected to the power, diode and coil.
The significance of this is that the power source is constantly maintaining a charge on the coil during pulsing operations. I believe this to be a very significant piece to the puzzle of the VIC.
See attached schematic. Notice the placement of the capacitor in the VIC circuit and that it is grounded to the main power ground. In the scope, this now causes the WFC to maintain a charge during pulsing. I have tried this on my real circuit and it does apply. Not only does the charge stay unipolar, but when resonance is achieved the wave form on the WFC is absolutely beautiful, like that in the 8XA image attached. AND during my first test run, I got a significantly better result in HHO production on my larger cell at 20mA across the cell than I usually get. Both the cap and ground must be there or it will not work. . Note, I am using rain water.
Unfortunately, while tinkering I lost the tune in so I am unable to provide images.
Anyone able to try this out and confirm? Voltage attenuation is also a must at primary input to achieve clean resonance. The cap, per simulation, needs to be probably in the 100nF to 10uF range. May need to try a few different values.
Incidentally, the WFC component is a sub-circuit in iCircuit which in my case is a cap at 25.67nF and a parallel resistor at 80 ohm.
Attached 8XA image from http://www.powergate.us/HHOParts/SM8XaCircuit.htm
TS
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Timeshell
Can you give simplified radiant circuit diagram to compare by myself this with 8XA , please?
thank
andy
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Timeshell
Can you give simplified radiant circuit diagram to compare by myself this with 8XA , please?
thank
andy
I cannot. The amount of detail into the circuit in question I have already given in this topic. I do suggest googling Bedini radiant circuits and camera flash charging circuits as examples.
TS