A green and clean environment is a human right!
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nickranger on December 07, 2012, 05:12:36 am
-
At risk of angering a lot of Stan Meyer fans, is anyone testing a 101 plate series cell with Boyce custom wound toroid and G board ?
-
I'm in the process of the build and have a ways before any testing.
Bob Boyce toroid, 129 turn secondary, had 130 turn on it but the .080" spacers (weed wacker line) allowed 129 turns perfectly spaced .080" on outer toroid core.
Primary I wanted 42 turns but ended with 41 I believe.
Checking Bob's PDF's and info this wind should be within the spec.
Series cell 101 plate, 9.5" by 5.5", a deviation from the suggested 6x6 plate. Should be within limits. But constructed in a flow through arrangement (bottom to top) no holes in plate and water feed from bottom.
At one point I want to be able to experiment with reflow gases through the cell container that are highly charged.
PWM3G board, but I will pull the 556's, attach an Arduino and pulse the transistor drivers in a separate phase configuration to search for the tiny phase offset and small pulse width.
My belief from research over the years is that the minimal voltage will tickle the water causing the water atoms to reach stretching action and a few atoms in the clusters will separate and the lower voltage will restrict the current in the cell itself. 1.5vdc per plate.
Now while the atom stretch is going on the pulses within the toroid from the primary's will or should just snap them apart.
These pulse timings are already based on frequency's that react with water. Just need a very minor shift/adjustment.
On top of this a created vortex magnetic field within the toroid/field from 3 phase spin should also imprint into the atom possibly giving it all a boost maybe by pushing on the structure of the atoms and inserting a higher/charged magnetic field.
In the Boyce system there appears to be multiple actions/reactions going on.
Some of this is relative to Meyers system.
This may not be the information you are looking for but I'm also looking for others that will talk openly about their experimentation with the 101 cell and Boyce TPU system.
We can never have enough info.
John
-
John, This is exactly the conversation I want to have. I have a complete setup, built to exact specs I am currently testing now. I have built an improved design 101 dry cell with the thoughts of introducing gas back into the cell at a later time myself, an idea i`m borrowing from all the Stan fans on this site. The G board will preform very well "exactly" as designed, but puts out the freq. at random [untied]. This is its weakness. Your idea to attach an Arduino is a good one and I will be following it closely. The winding of the torroid may well be my shortcoming. It requires a complicated math formula and then only after extensive conditioning of the plates to perfectly match the impedence of the cell. I can tell you I have light years of conditioning on my cell. I have tested primary turns fro 38 to 41 on the torroid with no apparent change in production. This is the area I have been concentrating on most. Also there is much problems with the choke designs in this circuit. What little has been written on this does not agree. Thru out all my testing I have always been able to see my waveforms behind the chokes and in places where they should not be. Remember, everything that has been written about this setup is secondhand information and much is wrong. I have over the years collected every bit and piece of info on this and found many discrepancies. This cell being my 3rd build with these same plates solves many of the problems the early replications had and I will share it all. I am a good fabricator, but fall short in in the circuit design end of it. This is where I need the help. Looking forward to a good discussion. Nick
-
Nick, I 'm guessing you have many of the PDF's of the Boyce TPU.
I'll upload the one I'm using.
Now this PDF has the bias windings on it and its not designed for HHO with these windings, but the rest of the info is what I used for HHO TPU.
Also a second PDF.
Lets look at the basics.
The wire used is a silver over copper Teflon coated on the TPU core as per PDF.
There are 3 chokes 2 of which on the HV side are wound with copper and the third on the LV side is wound with the silver over copper wire.
In my kit I got 3 toroids 2" or so but were spec'ed by Boyce. Out of the 3 toroids 1 is a different model although the same size.
I'm thinking I was told to wrap the one toroid with my remainders of silver/copper from the secondary wind and it goes on the primary side.
My take right now is to wind these 3 toroids with the same sized wire (ampere rating) used on the large toroid and wound pretty much all the way around the little toroids not based on any circuit formula at this time. I'm thinking magnetics here, just a core with a magnetic field introduced into the wire. Almost sounds slightly like current limiting.
The PWM3G I'm also guessing the way it is set up has 3 channels but cannot offset the phases (right?).
There is no delay from channel 1 2 or 3 so basically the 42.8k pulse channel will fire with the 21.4k and 10.7k all at the same time.
So any phasing happens when the pulses hit that primary but are placed on the secondary at 120 degree increments just using the PWM3G.
Makes me wonder if the TPU can react, I don't think its right.
What I see is lets start with the 10.7k pulse. According to the PDF it should be adjusted to produce your best output with the cell.
So it appears you must be able to measure any gas output and check this flow while adjusting the 10.7k to attain its highest point of gas which according to Bob is slightly off the 10.7k mark.
I attached the basic timing pulse model.
With that model I see if we use the 42.8k pulse with very tiny width each pulse has to be able to use the space between for the other 2 pulses and all appear to have a 50% duty.
First group fires and before the 42.8k pulse fires again the 21.4 & 10.7 have fired all with 50% time between them.
I believe the system is working on the magnetic vortex made from the pulse fire.
With the standard unmodified PWM3G it would be tough to get much reaction and that's what I think has been the trouble with this build.
It needs to be phased correctly.
I'm not a good electronics guy but know just a little and should be enough to modify that PWM3G using its drivers and transistors firing channeled pulses from the arduino.
Hopefully with the help of others we can see this in action one day.
Actually you really need to modify your setup right now to get the phasing part into action.
One more attachment, picture borrowed from a post at energeticforum, hope that's okay.
This picture reminds me of a vortex field happening on a toroid if phase pulsed.
Also make a notation that the field Boyce had a primary concern on was a longitudal wave not a standing wave.
I'm trying to get a grip of this too!
Just trying to get us started with some of the info we need and maybe others will eventually chime in.
John
Looks like I'm having problems posting the PDF's so I'll try the pictures first. Something about exceeding 30 seconds execution time.
Yeh I can't upload the pdf's.
-
About the Arduino.....
At the HydrogenGarage is a video of Donna pulsing a Boyce PWM.
http://hydrogengarage.com/PWM3g/
This is just to show that an Arduino can pulse the Boyce PWM.
Other than that Donna is showing using the XY of the scope the signal which appears to be aether type energy.
The Arduino comes in many different variations and I got the Mega. Doesn't matter which one really but check for PWM channels usually 6 and the Mega has 14 I think.
Willem known as TXQnl over at RWGresearch made up a opensource PulseFire program that looks promising.
Also at RWGresearch Russ has quite a bit on info on the Arduino and made a test rig.
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=440&highlight=pulsefire
Here is another site where Willem has posted info.
http://pulsefire.nongnu.org/
Since I'm just starting out I have run into the first obstacle using the pulsefire software and that is the BootStrap has to be modified.
I found the modified bootstrap Willem posted and now you have to get a small programmer to change this BootStrap on the Arduino.
It appears the BootStrap will not reset with the PulseFire software so thats why he modified it, the program makes a reset of the BootStrap I guess.
A TinyAVR BootStrap loader programmer should take care of this update. It loads a modified BootLoader.
I sure would love to try this PulseFire program out, as it looks pretty nice and may have what we need to program various pulses.
Looks like with the program we could test the pulse out then write it to the arduino.
Or if we can program the Arduino to make the pulses and use potentiometers for duty/delay and frequency and use a 2 or 4 line display to change modes in operation.
The arduino has much more possibility later on when safety's and other control may arise, as there are many many options that can be incorporated.
-
Okay, Let me say from the start a lot of this is over my head already, but I will tell you what I have done and my results so far. First at 160vdc [1.6v per plate] and no leaks or bypass you have no production. Zero, zzzzillch. 50% duty cycle is about the best you could hope for on the g board with out frying the fets, but this is opposite of what you want. According to Bob and others a very fast,sharp rise and fall times is what is needed to tap the ZPE. To achieve this, the duty cycle needs to be between 90 and 95%. Since this board switches neg.this is 5 to 10% on time. At these settings, the output of the board is about 12.5 to 13vdc and about 35milamps. Absolutely no production at these low voltages. I have sat for hours on end slowly turning the fine trimpots, going thru the complete range on all 3 freq. at many different duty cycles. As you said earlier, many different things going on here. On one hand we are to believe that this fast ,sharp rise in switching times is what is needed to disturb the zero point energys and to get our gain, [many at this site agree with this]. At this low power I can not see how the freq. can have any effect on the cell. I have seen nothing yet. I have went the 50, 60% duty cycle way as well, burning up many fets and caps . Even tried replacing them with heaver ones with no different results. Back to the chokes. I have tried solid copper, stranded and even bifiller with several different cores. [in the early D9 docs. there was no specs given]. Shouldn`t the chokes help contain the freq. to inside the cell to get resonance ? I can see my 3 freq. behind the bridge and have seen it at the battery as well.
-
Well I am not even at a testing stage so any input from me is just theoretical and how a person like me views it.
In the picture below of the pulse form are those pulses not fast, sharp, rise, fall times. They appear that way to me.
Notice these pulses are phased, do yours look anything like it?
On these pulses start with 42.8khz, it stays on 16.6% of the time.
The 21.4khz pulse stays on 16.6% of time
The 10.7khz pulse the same 16.6%.
That's what it looks like.
The 16.6% also is the off time between the pulses which all appears 50% duty between the formed phased pulses in a view of all 3 phasing together.
Do you see what I see just in the picture?
That pulse picture came from one of Bob's PDF's.
If we have control of the pulse width on the arduino to achieve 5% to 50% on time (duty) we should be able to create something that looks like the phased pulse picture.
According to Bob and others a very fast,sharp rise and fall times is what is needed to tap the ZPE.
To achieve this, the duty cycle needs to be between 90 and 95%.
Looking at the PWM3G sitting on the table, it cannot make the phased pulse as the picture below.
My view is you need this phasing to create the vortex shaping around the toroid.
Bob makes warning about the safety issues concerned with phasing, in the PDF doc he spent a lot of time phase pulsing and did bring forth destructive force into his work place.
This HHO toroid setup is not as powerful as the DC biased multi channel coils rig.
Shouldn`t the chokes help contain the freq. to inside the cell to get resonance ?
You would think the answer should be yes, they are just there to help soak up BEMF from the toroid to protect the circuit and filter the AC into a nice DC line.
This setup is supposed to work on the vortex magnetic field created from phasing and shaping on the toroid.
You need a vision of shaping a field you can't see, that's why I posted the earlier picture of the lines going around the torus.
This is where I believe the basic Boyce toroid setup has failed, no field pulse phasing on the toroid.
I'm only guessing and wish I were at the testing stages and building my pulse interface system with the arduino.
Right now I'm at the point of trying to find a machinist to cut my plastic out at a reasonable rate, its only a few pieces of plastic but needs to be cut on a CNC.
-
Hey Nick,
Wondering if you connected a variac out the inverter and raised your voltage from 120 just up enough to start current conduction in the cell.
Also I'm guessing you have the appropriate electrolyte.?
-
John, I do have a variac connected and can get up to a max voltage of about 208vdc and max amp draw is 8.5 to 9 amps. It may draw more amps if I let it run for an hour or more which I would not do. I keep NAOH at 26 to 28%. This will produce gas at brute force with the best of them. Many times I have calculated 14 - 15 liters per minute, even at less amps. That being said I am here to achieve "resonance drive". Please do not confuse my obvious frustration with arrogance as I am certainly not that way. My lack of understanding of simple electrical principals has not served me well. I feel the brightest and sharpest minds are on this forum and I am here to learn. I am no expert on reading my scope, but my 3 freq. seem to be in no order or shift but purely random. If all 3 duty cycles are set between 94 to 96% would they not all be firing at about the same rate in no particular order ? I have also read of the dangers of a rotating field or vortex in the torroid. This is Bob`s reason for not releasing the HEX controller. In studying this it seems others have done this and more in trying to create antigravity machines and other types of free energy devices yet I have not heard of any lightning strikes . My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
-
John, I do have a variac connected and can get up to a max voltage of about 208vdc and max amp draw is 8.5 to 9 amps. It may draw more amps if I let it run for an hour or more which I would not do. I keep NAOH at 26 to 28%. This will produce gas at brute force with the best of them. Many times I have calculated 14 - 15 liters per minute, even at less amps. That being said I am here to achieve "resonance drive". Please do not confuse my obvious frustration with arrogance as I am certainly not that way. My lack of understanding of simple electrical principals has not served me well. I feel the brightest and sharpest minds are on this forum and I am here to learn. I am no expert on reading my scope, but my 3 freq. seem to be in no order or shift but purely random. If all 3 duty cycles are set between 94 to 96% would they not all be firing at about the same rate in no particular order ? I have also read of the dangers of a rotating field or vortex in the torroid. This is Bob`s reason for not releasing the HEX controller. In studying this it seems others have done this and more in trying to create antigravity machines and other types of free energy devices yet I have not heard of any lightning strikes . My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
I remember on his rev.e board I had to pulse the 10.7 frequency and get the other 2 in line with it.I wish i still had the square wave picture my camera caught when all 3 frequencies wer in line with each other... it couldnt be seen with the naked eye on the scope but the picture from my camera of the scope screen captured it.All 3 frequencies are harmonically related and will fit inside each other when in tune wich in turn raises the amplitude of the 2 lower frequencies respectivly.The narrow pulse width of each pulse made it kind of difficult to fit em inside each other ... i think i remember him sayin on the digital version 12ms or 12us on each pulse worked out?? I dont have any boards now other than rev.c that had some trace mistakes on it or a soldering station...still have my scope and some parts tho... hopeing santa brings me a solering station :)
I didnt get to play with it much before my x wife threw it all away after 4 years of constant research :/ but it was my oppinion after seeing his way of modulating the amplitude with the harmonic pulses... there was a time when the pulse comes down..or just as before it comes down a void was there- I imagined it like a stobe light.. the pulse goes up/the strobe light was on... the strobe light blinks off and the pulse comes down... durring that blink off i imagined being able to stick something else in there or allow something else to get in but then read about the 120 degree phasing thing and got confused...its deffinately nice to see ppl here working on his stuff :) how is Mr.Boyce and whats he up to these days?
-
Nick, I don't want to say anything wrong so don't ruin your conditioned cell with any brute force exceeding what you have already done.
Its still good to know you gave it 208vdc but that's after the caps and diode bridge. Makes me wonder where you measured that 208vdc and had the current meter connected.
Looks like you got 1LPM per 126watts which is good but no resonance.
In the last couple years Bob also stated that trying to achieve his resonance would be much harder because the magnetic action on the earth created by that enormous planetary asteroid that's still passing us by, wonder if that is holding true. Do others have this same problem?
On your primary wiring did you wind it bunched together or along each separate secondary wire underneath ?
Any pictures of your setup?
Have you added any coils just before the cell connections?
That is where I would guess you would add a coil(s) and should be calculated electronically. But I don't know how that would work with this setup because the DC filter after the inverter.
Its very hard to find others doing the Boyce 101 and PWM3G that are sharing their work.
Is there anyone out there?
I'd like to find out a little bit more on the primary wind over the secondary and what would be the difference of a tightly wound primary verses a primary wound in the space between the secondary wind.
My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
Personally there has to be a way to create the resonance Boyce spoke of. It wasn't with coils or maybe I just have not seen it with them. I still believe in controlled Phasing.
Hi newguy thanks for chiming in.
-
Here's my toroid.
I have not cut the primary's yet thinking to myself should it be a tighter wind or is it okay like this?
The primary's will be cut at the 1/3rd marks and peeled back a turn on each side of the marks.
-
John, Looks like nice work to me. My secondary came out to 129 turns spaced just like yours. My primaries I wound with 3 different colors spaced just like yours, never overlapping. 41 turns came out just touching when finished. The 208 vdc was measured right at the cell. At this time I am not using an inverter choosing to use 120 wall current to a 120 variac, to a 120 to 240 transformer to the bridge and cap. My amp reading was at 8.5 to 9 amps ac on 1 leg of the 110ac before the variac. Before we get into the weeds to far, maybe we could address some of the things we have mentioned so far. Maybe others will chime in as well. How do you feel about the statement; "the primaries can not be off by more than 1 turn as the board will not be able to compensate an you will not be able to tune". And should we just use the simple chokes and not worry about it. We have not discussed the impedence matching of the cell to the electronics as well. Up to this point I have tried replicate every thing exactly as Boyce says. Although the cell is of dry cell design it matches Bob`s cell in every way except the case. I would recommend a dry cell design over the plastic case any day. The early cases had so many problems with current bypassing behind the HDPE and the acrylic. Much arcing, burning tracks etching into the plastic and a few explosions! Also during cleansing and conditioning there was always some warping and distortion with the heat. I have seen a few of the new design boxes and they have come a long way but I would still never go that route again. I think a dry cell is almost bullitproof and definitely the way to go. Yes I do have many pics of everything if this will help.
-
Nick, the measurement you made before the variac changes the calculation big time.
If you measured 9 amps on a 120vac line = 1080 watts and you got 14 lpm that's an astounding 77 watts per liter of gas per minute.
This shows something good happening.
The value of MMW is going to be fairly high.
I calculate 12.9 MMW which I'm sure is showing overunity already. Maybe not like Bob's but this is great.
So I can't seem to picture your cell, you say dry cell and that reminds me of hole through plate design.
I'm trying to find out how isolated are your plates that may have bearing on efficiency of design.
-
No holes thru the plates but no overunity either. I promise. I do believe the 101 plate cell to be a better design and has advantages over the tube setup. Still, just plain old electrolysis though . "My" design however does require a Bridgeport to do some precision drilling thru thin HDPE but is otherwise simple, durable and easy enough to build. It would take quite a lot of explanation and more than a few pics to explain it though. But I`m willing if any are that interested.
-
Its starting to sound like my approach.
But I'm not using thin strips or plate of HDPE.
I'm using 1/2" bottom and top with hole through design.
Then 1/2" will be embedded by 1" HDPE.
So being that holes are drilled through 1/2" of plastic the point of least resistance is through each plate and not around it.
Being built as such we should see the high efficiency.
Don't forget the MMW and unity figures are posted from a old antiquated system from the past.
We'll have to PM each other and have a discussion over the phone provided you are USA based.
-
Yes, Lets try to keep this thread going. I would like as much input from members here as possible. Some of the brightest and sharpest people in the world right here. I`m looking for some Boyce - Meyers hybrid ideas. Stan would be proud of a lot of replicators here !
-
@Newguy,
Your x tossed your stuff!
Wow what a disappointment.
Are you going to do the 101 again?
Anything else you can remember from experimenting with this stuff.
How about some more info on the strobe and void I just can't seem to picture this?
Don't really know how Bob's doing.
Its been over 2 years since I spoke with him and it was the only time that I did.
He was very discouraging for me at that time and not promoting research and would not offer up a tid-bit of information whatsoever.
Although he was pleasant to talk with, Bob was no help to me.
All I wanted to do was watch a few old videos that used to be posted, Sterling told me to get permission from Bob.
This is a total fiasco run around.
John, I do have a variac connected and can get up to a max voltage of about 208vdc and max amp draw is 8.5 to 9 amps. It may draw more amps if I let it run for an hour or more which I would not do. I keep NAOH at 26 to 28%. This will produce gas at brute force with the best of them. Many times I have calculated 14 - 15 liters per minute, even at less amps. That being said I am here to achieve "resonance drive". Please do not confuse my obvious frustration with arrogance as I am certainly not that way. My lack of understanding of simple electrical principals has not served me well. I feel the brightest and sharpest minds are on this forum and I am here to learn. I am no expert on reading my scope, but my 3 freq. seem to be in no order or shift but purely random. If all 3 duty cycles are set between 94 to 96% would they not all be firing at about the same rate in no particular order ? I have also read of the dangers of a rotating field or vortex in the torroid. This is Bob`s reason for not releasing the HEX controller. In studying this it seems others have done this and more in trying to create antigravity machines and other types of free energy devices yet I have not heard of any lightning strikes . My question is this. This may be what is needed to tap the ZPE, but is this what we need to do to create resonance in the cell. I read that it is easy to resonate a coil or build a self resonating circuit or tank circuit. Should we be concerned with extremely fast rise and fall times and the low power that goes along with it or junk that idea and concentrate on resonating the cell?
I remember on his rev.e board I had to pulse the 10.7 frequency and get the other 2 in line with it.I wish i still had the square wave picture my camera caught when all 3 frequencies wer in line with each other... it couldnt be seen with the naked eye on the scope but the picture from my camera of the scope screen captured it.All 3 frequencies are harmonically related and will fit inside each other when in tune wich in turn raises the amplitude of the 2 lower frequencies respectivly.The narrow pulse width of each pulse made it kind of difficult to fit em inside each other ... i think i remember him sayin on the digital version 12ms or 12us on each pulse worked out?? I dont have any boards now other than rev.c that had some trace mistakes on it or a soldering station...still have my scope and some parts tho... hopeing santa brings me a solering station :)
I didnt get to play with it much before my x wife threw it all away after 4 years of constant research :/ but it was my oppinion after seeing his way of modulating the amplitude with the harmonic pulses... there was a time when the pulse comes down..or just as before it comes down a void was there- I imagined it like a stobe light.. the pulse goes up/the strobe light was on... the strobe light blinks off and the pulse comes down... durring that blink off i imagined being able to stick something else in there or allow something else to get in but then read about the 120 degree phasing thing and got confused...its deffinately nice to see ppl here working on his stuff :) how is Mr.Boyce and whats he up to these days?
-
The only thing that is strange to me is the multiple primary and this phase stuff i think this is bogus... probably KISS method complies better.
-
Seb, I'm disappointed I thought maybe you would see some interest in this.
A rotational magnetic field, sort of a vortex so to speak.
This is something out of the norm.
It appears normal doesn't work and will not generate an anomaly or the difference that's needed.
This seems like exciting research.
-
Fab, In concept I actually think the set up is pretty simple. My problem is I`m to simple to understand it.
-
I never had the 101 box.. i just had rev.b,c,and e boards.I "had" a 4x8 sheet of 304 sliced up, a bunch of tubes and some more stuff and yea... she threw it away durring a split up.I still have most of my Herman Anderson stuff.a 7 cell i screwed up and drilled holes in the bottom and a few 5" tubes and rods.Bob was nice enough to let me in for nearly a year as i first got envolved searching about this stuff,he was interested more in other projects after a while and we lost touch.
The void thing i imagined was how his pulses effected each other.. it was like if we can get a sub harmonic with the same amplitude to do this, how would a really high amplitude harmonic act as well...about then is when he told me about how the naked eye couldnt see everything soooo, i got my camera out and shot a bunch of pics of my scope screen and sure enuff.. i had a picture of a square wave with a little wave on the top of it that my naked eye could not see.It was then i started watching the scope screen with every detail i could and started to imagine there was something going on in the transition time from peak of rise before fall of the pulse...a little later 120 degree phasing on the windings ,a littlle out of resonace was the wild stuff if i remember right..thise was 6 years ago Bob was the reason I have scope and interest of imagination and believe in this stuff.Im tring to see if i can get my old project pictures but im not having much luck at that so far.
I
-
Guy, You have got me interested now. You know I`m gonna be trying that tomorrow. I would like to have a look at those pics if you ever find them.
-
Newguy, You know what they say about the reason a divorce is sooo....expensive. BECAUSE ITS WORTH IT !
-
Guy, You have got me interested now. You know I`m gonna be trying that tomorrow. I would like to have a look at those pics if you ever find them.
they wer on oupower.com under kevinsatterfield.. i havent heard back from chris yet if he has them archived or not .
-
Newguy, You know what they say about the reason a divorce is sooo....expensive. BECAUSE ITS WORTH IT !
yeah thats true but serriously... try not to let this research ruin any relationships because this stuff can be way more expensive than a divorce :/
-
That's the stuff I like to hear/read!
Sounds like you were just starting to see something happening in there very quickly.
It is most interesting.
Hope you can find some of those old pic's.
Maybe you might remember something more in the methods of tuning, or...?
I never had the 101 box.. i just had rev.b,c,and e boards.I "had" a 4x8 sheet of 304 sliced up, a bunch of tubes and some more stuff and yea... she threw it away durring a split up.I still have most of my Herman Anderson stuff.a 7 cell i screwed up and drilled holes in the bottom and a few 5" tubes and rods.Bob was nice enough to let me in for nearly a year as i first got envolved searching about this stuff,he was interested more in other projects after a while and we lost touch.
The void thing i imagined was how his pulses effected each other.. it was like if we can get a sub harmonic with the same amplitude to do this, how would a really high amplitude harmonic act as well...about then is when he told me about how the naked eye couldnt see everything soooo, i got my camera out and shot a bunch of pics of my scope screen and sure enuff.. i had a picture of a square wave with a little wave on the top of it that my naked eye could not see.It was then i started watching the scope screen with every detail i could and started to imagine there was something going on in the transition time from peak of rise before fall of the pulse...a little later 120 degree phasing on the windings ,a littlle out of resonace was the wild stuff if i remember right..thise was 6 years ago Bob was the reason I have scope and interest of imagination and believe in this stuff.Im tring to see if i can get my old project pictures but im not having much luck at that so far.
I
-
Did yall have an E board? I was wasndering what the update from e to g was.
-
Wasn't Kevin the guy from Alaska or was that Chris?.
He was a busy builder.
-
G-board.
First one I ever had.
Very new to this setup.
First timer.
-
Alaskastar was from alaska.. his name is Chris.
-
Under Kevins project are a multitude of items.
Can you pinpoint a little?
-
Ill asume tunning the g board is the same as the e board...I only have one probe so the only way i could do it was take a 1uf cap (? 1nf?) to each of the outputs of the board and take those to the probe... start with the lowest one and get the pulse width as narrow as you can at 10.7, then get the next one at the right frequency.. 20 somethin i think .. the goal there is to get the 2nd one inside the 10.7( just barely out untill they add... the amplitude will rise) and then do the same with the 42.8. Tunning the pulse width is a pain since you want the pulse width as narrow as possible but the main thing is getting the amplitude to rise with adding the pulses together.IWhen you have it right the 10.7 amplitude will be higher as it should have all 3 pulses added together ... the next one will b a little lower and then the 42.8 should be as it is from the board.
-
Under Kevins project are a multitude of items.
Can you pinpoint a little?
ALL of mine were deleted along with a few other ppls.... we got pissed off because a bad apple was spoiling the forum.. more less that person killed that group.Chris might have them archived.. im still waitin his responce from facebook.
-
That tuning method sounds correct.
The board rev's had some changes I understand.
The G-board is using a mosfet driver that has very quick timing in the double digit nanoseconds range for quick rise and fall times.
Don't know if some MOV's were removed.
Do all the boards have the large diodes?
-
That tuning method sounds correct.
The board rev's had some changes I understand.
The G-board is using a mosfet driver that has very quick timing in the double digit nanoseconds range for quick rise and fall times.
Don't know if some MOV's were removed.
Do all the boards have the large diodes?
Im not sure on the diodes.. i would have to look it up... i have a pack of mur 410's .
-
The E and G boards were two completely different versions. I don`t think you can really compare the two. I must admit, in all my tuning I have always been tuning the 42 first. And I haven`t been keeping them in proper relation to each other either. I will be going at it from a different angle from now on.
-
Yes Mur410,s.
Look rather large like they can take some amperage.
The board has led's on each mosfet (IRF540Z).
Led on 12v supply and led on 8v supply regulators.
Large MOV on DC battery supply.
3 pots per 556, PWwavelength, fine and coarse.
Didn't notice frequency??? maybe that's the fine and coarse adjusts.
-
Yes Mur410,s.
Look rather large like they can take some amperage.
The board has led's on each mosfet (IRF540Z).
Led on 12v supply and led on 8v supply regulators.
Large MOV on DC battery supply.
3 pots per 556, PWwavelength, fine and coarse.
Didn't notice frequency??? maybe that's the fine and coarse adjusts.
yeah i cant remember the ratings on them diodes.. im not sure if the FETs i have were from the E board or what but I have 3 IRF PS3810s'
All i have is a huge laminated torroid so if i get back into actually being able to build on his work ill have to do a lower harmonic.
-
Those are Hexfet Mosfets whatever that means.
Your rise and fall time are in triple digit Nanoseconds and a little higher on avalanche current or and pulsed current.
Not much difference.
The fet drivers are going to be different.
A while back he used optocouplers on the boards.
Looks like the MUR410's are rated at 4amp, with 150amp surge and have fast recovery rate in double digit nanoseconds.
The G-board has quicker rise and fall time.
I think the loads on the pulse supply from the 12v battery is going to be in the milliamps.
Was anything ever posted on the load of the 12volt supply to the primary's?
-
A while back my total on my g board was 35millliamps. Not sure where my duty cycles were then. Now that they are set so low it might be less. I`ll ck. tomorrow and post back.
-
Those are Hexfet Mosfets whatever that means.
Your rise and fall time are in triple digit Nanoseconds and a little higher on avalanche current or and pulsed current.
Not much difference.
The fet drivers are going to be different.
A while back he used optocouplers on the boards.
Looks like the MUR410's are rated at 4amp, with 150amp surge and have fast recovery rate in double digit nanoseconds.
The G-board has quicker rise and fall time.
I think the loads on the pulse supply from the 12v battery is going to be in the milliamps.
Was anything ever posted on the load of the 12volt supply to the primary's?
What type of FET driver is he using?
He never told me anything bout the load of the 12v supply to the primary's... i havent got to wind a coil yet.
-
Yes Mur410,s.
Look rather large like they can take some amperage.
The board has led's on each mosfet (IRF540Z).
Led on 12v supply and led on 8v supply regulators.
Large MOV on DC battery supply.
3 pots per 556, PWwavelength, fine and coarse.
Didn't notice frequency??? maybe that's the fine and coarse adjusts.
mmm... frequency... i think the duty cycle controlled that.... one pot would do a divide by,on the E board ther wer only 2 pots per 556
-
Your fet drivers look like they are right after the 556's.
Are those IC's there? Are they 6 pins or 8. 6pin are probably opto's.
Duty is pulse width.
The other is frequency.
What is the number on the IC behind the 556 sockets?
Yours also has the 3 MOV's on the right back.
-
yep those wer opto's.. pcp116
-
Sometimes we are not stupid just the schematic...
I don't understand how pulsing different primaries with different frequencies would help.
You should before anything get some education about physics 3 ... don't worry is worth understanding what you'r doing before expending loads of money...
Sometimes we think of very complex systems and hope that they can work, but actually its just so complicated that we cannot decide why it would not work. Nothing that you cannot really exam profoundly deep can work.
Schematics must be clear simple and stupid. you must draw it many times in paper in many different ways and examine it until you have headaches.
Bob directions are indeed correct, but his diagrams don't do what he says. but does other things...
what is he doing in the end?
Don't take my word here, you must understand by yourself's otherwise i would need to guide you thru everything and i need people to come aside me not behind me.
-
Hi,
I also have tried the BB toroid with my own designed board.
My answer on why he used three primairy's is that i dont know either.
However, the effect on the output of the toroid was that when all three frequency's were firing at the same time, you got the highest volts.
That way, you could see a step up signal.......
Three frequency's can be compared as using a shotgun, in stead of .22 amunition.
Steve
-
I agree it would create a higher voltage when the 3 primaries are pulsing contemporaneously but this only mean that he is not reaching close to saturating the core with individual pulses...
I mean why simply don't hit simply at the resonant frequency?
-
Well, he likes a mix of frequencys, because he thought that that worked better.... :)
-
You don't need a bunch of frequencies two frequencies with x6 spacing will do.. no OU ofc but helps fuel consumption.
-
Bob directions are indeed correct, but his diagrams don't do what he says. but does other things...
what is he doing in the end?
Don't take my word here, you must understand by yourself's otherwise i would need to guide you thru everything and i need people to come aside me not behind me.
What does it not do specifically?
What other things does it do specifically ?
As far as whats he doing in the end... as for now he is making more gas than anyone with tube cells.... im all for tube cells as I think they may be a way to produce more gas than Bobs does but so far ... not hapened yet :/
Im sure the fields behave diffrent in a tube cell than a plate cell but I have not seen no body produce more usable gas at the same temperature as Bobs does.Even if there is a day the tube cells prove to produce MORE USUABLE GAS, Bob doesnt deserve to be bashed about his work or put down in anyway shape or form.
-
Sometimes we are not stupid just the schematic...
I don't understand how pulsing different primaries with different frequencies would help.
.
it may be a 3 phase system using water as the load ;)
-
Bob did not just find a way to make this toroid system work for HHO but he made some specific advancements with a multi-channeled setup using some more coils for DC bias on the toroid.
Don't know who he did this for but I'm sure it was a positive result.
Also from some old reading on his research with the multi-channel setup, he had some near miss horrific experiences.
I believe its because of the bad experiences he had, he shy's people away from researching with the setup.
I was never there and have not heard of any other persons factual representation of the evidence, so it may not be correct.
We need to hear of positive results with this setup and about the fine tuning of the pulse and width to show the proof of concept the system was designed for.
-
You don't need a bunch of frequencies two frequencies with x6 spacing will do.. no OU ofc but helps fuel consumption.
So, Geon,
Welcom to this forum.
Can you explain more? It seems you know more about this, if i read your comments well?
X6 spacings? What does that mean?
Steve
-
x6 means two frequencies must differ by the multiplication of the first frequency by 6 minus the first frequency..google coherence..
Plus yesterday I realised how this frequency bombarment alters the surface tension of water droplets.. surface tension is very important aspect.
You will have headaches using toroids I suggest you use other shapes. Seriously toroid shapes are extremely complex to understand.
-
x6 means two frequencies must differ by the multiplication of the first frequency by 6 minus the first frequency..
Plus yesterday I realised how this frequency bombarment alters the surface tension of water droplets.. surface tension is very important aspect.
You will have headaches using toroids I suggest you use other shapes.
Thanks for explaing and sharing your surface tension experiments, Geon. I ll appreciate that.
So, if i understand you correctly, if i use 1khz as a basis frequency, you multiply 1khz * 6 = 6khz and then 6khz minus 1 = 5khz.
A comby of 1 and 5 khz would break up the surface tension, as example.
Did i do yr calculation right?
Steve
-
Yes this according to what I know could alter the surface tension of water droplets, requiring that you use water mist/fog.. in wave synthesis we normally base our models on xy dimensional planes but not in the xyz axes.. water droplets can be modified in the three dimensional plane altering surface tension in a different way than normal . You can try different spacing depending on the medium you want to dirtort. Some say its because of magical frequencies and resonance but this applies to alter the sufrace tension creating negative surface tension and implosion , I believe I'm the first one to say that in a forum.. maybe others have guessed it.. we don't get excess energy even with this system.. but its better that common electrolysis. This is just a theory but surely works.
-
Geon, that is pretty interesting and worthy of trying but apparently not relating to the 101 G-Board and TPU of this particular forum string, as you stated "headaches using toroids"
If we were to try this with the toroid regardless just for a test.
For example a frequency maybe near 8.5khz x 6 = 51khz - 8.5khz = 42.5khz
This can be adjusted closer to certain frequency's in ranges.
I did not understand this until Steve wrote it out. Thanks Steve.
Its worthy of a try in an electrolysis system as you said, if it breaks the surface tension up then this is a good positive experiment many people should do on their various cells since it has a very good possibility of dislodging the sticky bubble layer.
-
You can produce HHO using this, electrolysis is very energy consuming.. you can try toroids and other antennas.. use your imagination. ;) The only thing is that you must add NaCl inside water and let it dissolve, also use water fog.
-
Does anyone have an instruction file for the G board and Toroid set up and or a file of the effect from the TPU stuff? He told me the guy with TPU stuff had seen the effect the toroid produced but I didnt have time to research any of that back then.
-
Here's a basic adjustment page.
-
Well I won't put standard salt in my cell any of them.
I did once before and it builds up on the S/S.
Don't know what else (maybe pits in the metal) I had to clean those tubes off literally of the salt junk.
I thought it ruined my tubes.
You can produce HHO using this, electrolysis is very energy consuming.. you can try toroids and other antennas.. use your imagination. ;) The only thing is that you must add NaCl inside water and let it dissolve, also use water fog.
-
ss316 and plastic tubes will solve that problem..
-
Why 316? Do you mean 316L?
The metal make up is not much different than 304. Couple percent of chromium and nickel more on 316.
Salt will still effect it.
Are you using low carbon?
Here is the test cell the salt messed up. Its 304 though.
Been taken apart and cleaned many times and used with many different electrolytes for testing.
I've seen some other posts on the board with positive results using salt, but its not for the 101 unless someone is willing to test it.
Can't imagine what would happen to 101 plates if it got ruined from its pre-conditioning in NaoH.
-
Thank you for the files Komtek, i didnt get to look at the first but i did the second one and it didnt mention the longitudal wrap or did i miss that part?
-
Okay let me try with with compressed pdf.
The original pdf is over 5megs and I can't upload.
Try this, it should have the DC bias coil wind.
-
kewl ... He's showing those longitudal wraps.. now that the rodin coil has came out i think it would be neat to stick one in the center of the toroid as a reciever coil?
-
Dear friends,
with all humble I ask you a newbie type question, because I´m quite confuse. I understand, that you bought PWM3G curcuit and built toroid and buy or built 101 plate cell, and you did not get resonance/efficiency more than 200 %, am I right?
-
Hi Oldrich333,
Welcome!
Nick should really answer this but from what I have heard and read on this thread.
The PWM3G has not been tuned quite correctly to provide a resonance and the gas created thus far seems to be at a excellent rate for the power consumed.
Thus far it seems like a perfectly prepared cell (electrically isolated plates) and conditioned can provide at these higher voltages (because more plates) a rate of gas per liter at approximately 75-77 watts so far in just an electrolytic fashion.
I think if Nick can trully tune that PWM into a resonance he may experience even more output.
I would surely love to see that output rise or current level drop.
Also to add to this that its quite possible the gas produced is at a higher level of strength as compared to a standard dry cell.
-
Here's what appears like an older Boyce video.
This cell is just an electrolytic cell.
I noticed he stated the spaces between were 1/8" but the slots were oversized and allow solution to pass around the plates and equalize.
Wasn't there a problem with this eventually?
Also I wonder if there is a certain amount of current maybe just a bit too much that the passing solution could create an arc spot.
Wasn't arcing an issue with many of these 101 containers.
If it was what was the current setting people would use on them. I wonder if in general many people were applying much over current.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nXFgfk-Rsk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nXFgfk-Rsk)
-
Oldrich, I can tell you this. I have been testing the B.B.101 cell for many years now. It has taken many design changes to solve the leaking and bypass issues. To date I HAVE NOT seen resonance in my cell. I have heard of others who have, but I have not seen even a video of a B.B.101 cell resonating yet. Do I believe it is possible with my current setup. YES, and I believe I have the cell to do it but as of this date, testing goes on. Like Seb said earlier there are no newbies or dummys here, only those wanting to learn. That is the purpose of this thread to hopefully solve this together.
-
hey Nick, can you post some piks of your cells and scope shots of ur G board?
-
have you tried to construct two toroids interconnected but not touching like a chain?
-
Geon,
You got many (good) ;) ideas that maybe you should try out someday.
At this point we are concentrating on the system Boyce developed.
Nobody in all my research thus far on the Boyce system with the toroid and 3 channel primary has seen anything out of the ordinary.
Personally I have a viewpoint that no one has adjusted the signal to perfection.
If anyone has found the certain signal variable they have not posted anywhere.
There are a ton of variables.
Somehow we will have to put our minds together and try to understand what exactly we should be seeing on a scope shot.
Width of the 3 pulses may change with a small tolerance in relation to each other in order to create the Boyce effect.
Somewhere I also heard of a tiny shift in phase would add to the effect.
Pulse width, pulse variations I have heard slight changes of frequency's from the quoted frequency's, temperature of the cell electrolyte, voltage amplitudes. etc.
So a whole lot of fine tuning and data of this tuning must be logged to recreate the Boyce effect.
This PWM was a proof of concept tool so it did tune to the effect Boyce stated.
Its just too bad Bob has not posted much data, and as a matter of fact he has pulled data off the internet on more than one forum concerning this system.
This was a openly shared HHO system and then what Bob backs out.????
My wish is that others that have built or studied or seen in action the 101 and toroid come and share the ideas and facts that were available for the fine tuning needed on the primary channels in order to attain the Boyce effect that this system was developed for originally.
"Just the Proof of concept"
have you tried to construct two toroids interconnected but not touching like a chain?
-
Nick doesnt want to share pictures in an open forum of Bob Boyces replication.. how do you feel about that Komtek?
-
That's okay as he has shared information.
We are after the subtle nuances of this setup concerning the 101 and toroid anyway.
I'm sure there are variations of the 101, just like I want to make my variation.
I do not like the Boyce method of filling the cell.
Steve has a variation also.
The various methods have included hole through plate and I don't like that either.
Personally want flow through bottom to top, and want to check with different levels of electrolyte.
I still believe if there is any hole in plate or flow around plate then there will be electrical losses, the plate needs to be as isolated as it can be.
So the 101 in a Holdgate container is isolated, and there can be only a few variations that can retain isolation from current loss bypassing around a plate.
I may be wrong but have this written in my thoughts, the possible paths of electrical current loss and what I want out of a cell.
-
Some thoughts I want to post this early morning I woke up.
There is just a tiny small window of the perfect adjustment to find when tuning into a coil setup for the resonant effect we are all after.
Over the years we have been tuning rebuilding electronics and winding coils and not had a good story of success of a over abundant reaction.
There are only a couple of success story's.
Those positive story's the person found the right tuning and coil setup and in many respects it could have been by mistake.
If by mistake it was persistence of building and tuning and didn't happen by overnight.
This is totally relative to Meyer Boyce Puharic Cramptom Freddy and whoever else.
Point is in order to find this place and use equipment that has the ability to prove the concept there is only a tiny spot, a perfect adjustment, a wire coil that's just so close to the perfect wind by one turn, the temperature of our system maybe, the electrolyte (ohmic value of solution), the size and material of the core, the amplitude of voltage, the frequency(s), the width(s), the plate (tube) and material, this list goes on and on.
Its going to need to be right on or very close!
It can be found I believe with persistence, after all these years I still won't give up.
Hopefully in this Boyce setup I will see something positive.
Same in the Meyer setup, that perfect point of adjustment will eventually be found.
There is a bunch of us still searching for it.
I hope that one day I could look back at this and laugh about it.
Keep on trucking, building and adjusting!
To whomever has found this point of reaction, SHAME on you for not sharing.
-
Some paragraphs out of the Boyce PDF, just trying to get this information correct:
Rotational mode, where channel 1 is pulsed, then 120 degrees later channel 2 is pulsed, then 120 degrees later channel 3 is pulsed, then 120 degrees later channel 1 is pulsed again, etc. NOTE: This phase is related only to the pulses that are common amongst the 3 phases. IE every fourth pulse on channel 1 (42.8khz), every other pulse on channel 2 (21.4khz), and every pulse on channel 3 (10.7khz). The in between pulses of channel 2 will also be about 120 degrees behind the center pulse of the off-time pulse group of channel 1. This creates 2 nested RMFs at X and 2X, and a pair of bi-directional impulses every X cycle. In this mode, phase is the twist, or offset, in true 120 degree timing per primary. There is not a very pronounced phase-locking effect as there is in pulsed mode. The analogy for this mode is like a "tropical storm", to a "mild hurricane". This is a higher energy mode, which can tend to lose stability, and as such is more difficult to maintain control. Timing for channel 1 would be at 0 degrees, channel 2 at 120 degrees, and channel 3 at 240 degrees, then repeat. Channel 1 is never changed in phase, The twist is slight variations of channel 2 in reference to channel 1, of no more than 1/10th of a degree, and matched by twice that at channel 3, i.e. no more than 1/5th of a degree. This is assuming that the primaries are placed exactly on 120 degree centers. Each primary winding is like a particle accelerator for the toroidal ring, they must be fired at the right times or they will buck the rotations instead of reinforcing them.
Question: What does he mean about the 1/10th or 1/5th of a degree?
Let me try to initiate an example: 42.8khz @ 2.5% on time, 21.4khz@1/10th of a degree more 2.75% on time?, and 10.7khz@1/5th more 3%on time?
Does this example appear correct?
Suggested pulse width 500ns: 0.0000005seconds = 500 nanoseconds, 42,800hz = 0.0000233 seconds per pulse
A later PDF I uploaded stated to adjust the frequency's, then adjust 42.8Khz to its minimum width and adjust the other 2?
1 Hz resolution is fine for bench test applications where you're just looking for proof of concept. Is it a fast
and powerful enough microprocessor to monitor all the feedback points while maintaining tuning on the resonant reaction? It will require at least 0.01 Hz resolution to maintain a good phase control system for higher performance operation. This can make the difference between a 200 - 300% power efficient vs. a 500 - 1000% power efficient system.
Notice, the fine point of resolution stated that is needed. (tuning to the 100th is very fine).
Rotational mode is where the timing of the pulses are about 120 degrees out of phase. These are
driven in a Wye configuration.
Regardless of the mode, phase angle between drive signals can be used to create repeatable
interference patterns in the EM field. Try to think of these interference patterns as EM holograms,
that given the right conditions can interact with dominant energy. When the dominant energy is
kicked, it can kick back - hard! Normally, the three states of dominant energy are in balance, and
no net energy flow occurs. When unbalanced, energy flow can be initiated. Our goal is to create
controlled imbalances, and maintain this control while we make use of the tapped energy to power
loads.
extremely fast switching times
very sharp and narrow pulses
Longer duration on times are just wasted power
accuracy of primary coil mounting
Even assuming that we are able to get our primaries precisely located in exactly the right places, a perfectly balanced 3 phase field rotation is not going to put out much like that. That is where a null in the response is, and minimal output occurs. If it were a case of just needing simple 3 phase output, then we would just need to drive all 3 primaries with a common 3 phase motor controller. As I am told quite often by those that do not understand the precision phase requirements, I could just buy a 3 phase motor controller chip. When I ask them if a chip like this provides precision phase control, of course the answer is no.
When tuning for resonance, the first resonant frequency of the coil will be Transverse resonance. About 1.5 times that frequency will be the
longitudinal frequency.
This next statement on tuning is interesting:
Suggested method of tuning: a. Build a Faraday Cage b. Place your coil within c. Place a SECOND coil of some type outside of the box. d. On finding the first transverse resonant frequency, there will be no signal picked up on the SECOND coil. e. When you think you have found the longitudinal resonant frequency (about 1.5 time the frequency of the transverse) you will pick up a signal on the SECOND coil that is outside of the Faraday cage.
This is hard to understand why elevation would suggest to change polarity?
For the lower performance and more stable toroidal power systems, only the secondary bias is used. That is the DC potential bias only. This secondary bias is what creates the dipole charge separation I spoke of. The dipole can be of either polarity, but for some reason one will work better than the other depending on the local environment. For this high altitude location and the replicator in a high altitude location in Colorado, it works better with + applied to the secondary and - applied to ground. For the replicator near sea level in Florida, it works better the other way. I have not yet figured out for sure why location makes a difference in which works better.
The DC bias is two-fold in my system. Primary function is to provide a relatively high voltage dipole charge separation between the core and earth/ground. The RMF which occurs during 3 phase drive of the toroid takes place while contained within the electrostatic field of this DC bias. Secondary function is
specifically related to the application of this system as a power source for the hydroxy gas system. It
provides a source of free electrons for canceling charge, which is required by my resonance drive system. You are 100% correct in that the higher the DC bias potential, the greater the energy gain possible. The only reason I limit to the 160 VDC region in that common unit is because it is the voltage requirement of the load that unit was designed to power. By the way, I had that same replicator run a test by installing a DC blocking capacitor in series with a 120 volt load, raise the DC bias potential, and watch the output climb while no additional load was placed on the power supply. I think he finally may have learned something about the potential of DC potential ;-)
You will likely find that with 16 gauge silver plated, Teflon insulated wire, you may end up near 140 turns if you keep it tight.
NOTE: I kept this tight and ended with 130 turns and in order to create a perfect space between turns I had to remove 1 turn (total 129 turns).
The three primaries are equidistant on 120 degree centers
same care for even winding spacing as the secondary
Each primary MUST have the same exact number you choose
This is an excerpt from another PDF:
For primary winds around coil.
Primary to produce voltages of about 25% of the measured secondary voltage.
For example only: secondary voltage 155 divided by 4 = 38.75 divided by 12.5 (primary voltage) = 3.1 which is the turns ratio.
My secondary has 129 turms divided by 3.1 = 41.6 so instead of 42 I ended with 41 on my primary.
Lets try a variable: 157 divide 4 = 39.25, 39.25 divide 13.6 = 2.88, 129 divide 2.88 = 44.8 turns (now my electronics can't compensate because I have 41 turn primary).
So according to the math relationship written in the PDF the effect of resonance I want can't be found using the second example above using my battery on automotive GM charge system.
According to this math above in order to get the right response I need to be able to provide a primary voltage adjusted properly to the secondary voltage.
I say this because some vehicles have a higher battery voltage from the regulator if used in an automotive application.
It appears you need to compensate the voltage in an appropriate fashion.
So a bench test application would suggest an adjustable primary, and a variac on secondary to compensate for coil windings.
Now somewhere it was posted that Patrick Kelly came up with this formula after talking with Bob.
This information is important in the respect that there is only a tiny window to get the correct reaction.
It would be nice to hear about any other variations.
-
how bout a picture of youre G board scope shots to start with?
-
Newguy I see your very interested.
Wish we had others here that could share stories, from what I understand many have tried and failed and it sure would be nice to kick up the old Boyce experiments.
Personally I'm still in the construction phase, on my new cell.
Its going to take a while, I'm still in the drawing phase. All materials are here and ready except for the CNC machining.
Still some preliminary is getting done before I find the machinist.
On the electronics side, I'm trying to nail down from what I have read the approach to the adjustments that must be made (as in the PDF).
Right now its rather one-sided, not tested by me.
Maybe one day soon we'll attract others already experimenting.
Trying to make as much sense from the information available as I can.
These details take time.
Some things are still puzzling to me.
If you have read the adjustment procedures, they are rather vague in many respects but are enough to get a person started.
-
thats cool Komtek,
I found one person who still has his project pictures up on oupower.com with his try at Bobs stuff from 5 years ago.Im not sure if Kumaran is still expierimenting or not but he did find that the TL494 is more stable than the 556 with the 42.8 pulse.
( http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects/kumaran&DrillDown=yes )
His combined waveforms at the secondary are not good..
When you get around to tunning your board it wont seem as complicated once you see how the waveforms are suppost to look.You will understand the slight phase diffrence is whats required to get the disired waveform.Openning up the 10.7 1/5 from its fastest rise and fall time allows the next one to do its thing and then openning up the 20 somethin 1/10 of its fastest rise and fall times allows it to do the same,by then the 42.8 has plenty of room to do its thing without adjustment.
I
-
That's nice to be able to look at someone else's project.
Although its pretty far off the recommended (wire) material and size this is something to take a look at.
Thanks for posting the link.
Yes I have heard or other timers that seem to be more stable.
I have 3 cells that are the same 13 plate cells, maybe I could connect some power supplys and alter the voltage variables and connect these in series and start experimenting a little.
I'll look into this.
-
Hi folks,
A part of the Boyce build is the famous toroid.
For those who are not really well educated in electronics, i have here for you a NOMOGRAM.
If you want to have the most optimum G factor in your coils or LC circuits, this is your guide.
Find your frequency, then you know which Henry's and or Farads you need...
Steve
-
Nice Steve!
Thanks for posting the graph.
Merry Christmas all!
-
Yes Steve, Thanks for the graph. This addresses some of the questions I have been asking. Maybe now I can take some readings from my setup and learn how to apply some of this. I started this thread to get input on tuning and modifying this circuit and have not been disappointed. Many good ideas here already. I could use some suggestions on taking measurements without the benefit of a lot of expensive equipment. At this point I`m more interested in tweeking what I have before I add any else to the equation. Many thanks to all who have chimed in so far.
-
Here's another file that has good explaination of the Boyce cell/stack and toroid.
-
NickRanger,
Here is a link to a nice forum post at Rwg, it contains info on impedance matching and resonance.
I'm thinking this would be helpfull to make your 101 plate cell a resonant system rather than the Boyce LEM system.
My first thought is the total resistance of your cell would be a starting point.
Next a choice must be made of the frequency which also could be a harmonic number of your choice.
From here it starts getting deeper, wire size/turns core material.
So far from what I have read maybe start with only impedance matching on this circuit.
Maybe later you/we can add in capacitive portion of resonance.
There are a couple video's I liked on youtube referenced from that rwg post.
This gives some understanding to get you started:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyMH8wKK-Ag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZBMfDvWF4U
-
Hi NickRanger,
I do have some input regarding the choke and capacitors if this may help you a bit. The circuit is a low pass filter, 12db per octave as used in audio systems to limit upper frequencies from running into the circuit. From my experience, I am seeing that the cell has wired into it, going to the cell, one coil in series, and one cap of 470 microfarads. I tested the cell, with the exact amount of electrolyte in it and I am coming up with 1-2 ohms. This means nothing. We need to obtain the actual impedance of the cell , and this has to be done with an impedance meter, which test the impedance while the circuit is powered up. Plus, a 12dB low pass filter circuit for a 1 ohm load that uses a 470 Microfarad capacitor would be filtering out every frequency above 150 Hz at 1 ohm, but, would change by double the frequency at 2 ohms. The cell will not perform as expected, nor could the pwm even work with this type of circuit because all of the high frequency harmonics would be filtered out.
I am having the same difficulty getting the FETs not to fry, but, if you have wired the tpu's secondary coil in series with the cell or load, you should have a massive output of 15-18 liters per minute, and 4.9-5.9 amps at 120 volts AC at your rectifier, or even less on the dc side of the rectifier. The coil doesn't even have to have the primary side of the coil energized to get a massive output. I am pretty confident that the schematic isn't correctly showing the primary coil lengths, because the fets are not in saturation on my pwm3g, and they smoke out instantly, especially if i wire them directly with no fuse, the board's traces burn off instantly.
20 windings is what the diagram shows, and if you double this, there still isn't enough resistance in the primary coil to allow the circuit to be energized without a blatent short circuit, heat release from tpu, or FET frying happening. My calculations are showing a bare minimum of 60 turns on the primary, and 600 turns minimum on the secondary coil. If you look at SM's primary coils, his FETs dont burn up like this because he has to have a bare minimum of 300 turns to create a high enough resistance to allow the FET to operate correctly and remain energized. I am seriously looking into replacing the mosfets with IGBT's due to their liking of high amperage and high frequency. MOSFET's are terrible for the high frequencies at a heavy load and are nearly impossible to drive the loads necessary to get this to work. The key here I think is to get the primaries energized and turn on the secondary feed at the same time. What Bob I think is implementing here is a small "AC" high frequency pulse over the dc to give the circuit the " Battery Charger" effect. This is easily obtained with the rectifier, without the pwm circuit and the Toroid, but, to make much more sense, I am leaning more toward the SM 9xb circuit to get merely the same result that Bob is trying to show is possible here. I truly believe that the circuit that Bob is sending out to the public is shown completely wrong and we must figure this all out ourself without any help, and it is difficult to figure out the things that are wrong here.
I believe the toroid needs to be wired in parallel on the secondary to obtain a low amperage output at a high frequency, but, the chokes need to be changed, as well as the caps. The filtering out of the low frequencies completely eliminates the process that is being given from the pwm3g if you look at it from far away, because anything over either 150hz or 300 hz is being filtered out by the coil and capacitor on the positive side. We also have this on the negative side, so, we are filtering on both ends, and I am not sure what this accomplishes, maybe even limiting that very same frequency range from the other end of the spectrum.
I noticed that if we just rectify the ac 120 volt mains voltage, and then add the low pass filter to the pos and neg of the cell output, we change the amperage in my experiment from 15-18amps ac down to 5.5-7 amps, from 1.3rd to 1/2 of the amperage. The cell still rocks out 5 liters per minute, but I am not using a BB 101 plate series electrolyser in this test. So, in the end, the output if wired as said in his documents, series through the secondary coil will give full rated output just as if it were plugged into the wall, because there is nothing additive to the circuit that I could find due to the output filters. I found the value of the choke for the cell in a crossover chart, and it happens to be 1.8 mH if you have a 1ohm impedance, as well, the cap will be 470 Microfarad. I had trouble obtaining a 450 microfarad at 200 volts, because nobody makes this, so, I used two 470 mfd and 2 .8 mH coils in series to get 1.6 mH, since I have had trouble locating a 1.7 mH inductor choke that is anywhere near the ampacity desired.
I ordered a bulk order of chokes from EBAY, which come from China. They are open coil, and shouldn't be covered as HydrogenGarage sells because they heat up. If these heat up, the field and inductance changes. The Toroid certainly will not be able to obtain any "environmental" energy if it is kept in a Faraday Cage, so I have left all of the coils open to absorb energy, but, I really don't think this is what happens anyway. I am quite certain that the Toroid is taking free electrons from the air surrounding the toroid, this is why Bob leaves the Faraday enclosure vented, so air could come in instead of creating a vacuum inside once the additional free electrons have been absorbed. The air will move anyway due to the heat the Toroid produces. I am thinking that the cell wilol have to be a series electrolyser with no electrolyte when starting so we do not overheat the FETs from the start. I also think the cell should be conditioned using the toroid and not any other source due to the miniscule output that could be obtained if we vary the ac voltage with a variac or similar.
I have seen a post by Bob that states that the Peak to Peak voltage of the pulses should be 30 volts peak to peak. We wont obtain this with 12volts dc input to the pwm3g. This will have to be raised, so, a variable dc power supply must be used to obtain this waveform, which I think is critical to stop the FETs from overheating or being driven to saturation. The FET's are close to their limit at the frequency because he says we have to dial the pulse width down as far as possible. On output 1, I get 22,400 hz from the 556 if I go all the way in with the width. If I back it out a hair, I am able to obtain the frequency desired, but, the output is just at the edge of saturation. Once a load is added to the FET at high frequency, it goes into complete saturation and smokes the FET very easily. I think the load is way too much from the primary coils, so, if we put many more turns on the primary, it will not do this, but, we still have to have the correct turns ratio for the secondary to obtain the desired output. Our secondary coil still has 120 volts-150 volts dc coming through from, the rectifier, so, we do not need to have to match this voltage but, the turns ratio should be 10 times. He says 20 turns primary and 140 turns on the secondary. This would give you a 1:7 ratio, which would turn a pulsed 14 volts into 98 volts. I have built the toroid 3 different ways. I have taken the time to do what I think will work, and that is 300 turns per primary coil, and then secondary is 3000 turns. If you watch Bob's interview on Youtube which is over 1 hour long, look at the thickness of his toroid. It is huge. Also, it doesn't matter what type of primary wire you use, just as long as it is enameled and wrapped tightly. Spacing is not critical per turn just as long as we have 300 turns per phase. The secondary only needs the proper amount of winding in different layers, which will either need to be insulated between layers, or use a ptfe jacketed solid core wire as he does, we just need to be sure the primary coils could handle the ampacity because the pwm will be driving the coils pretty hard. If we have 14 volts driving the system, and the coils built as I stated, the load will be split because the secondary is in series. So this eliminates 1/2 of the calculated load from the FETS. The FETS would absorb 40-50 amps if the secondaries were in parallel with the cell. This isn't the case, so, some of the load will be eliminated. What the public doesn't see is that there are 2 sources of load in this circuit. They are only seeing 4-5 amps driving the cell from the rectified feed (ac mains) There will also be an additional 20 plus amp load if the pwm powers the primary coils effectively because they are driving the secondary as well with 1/2-1/3rd of the normal rated load it should normally put out if the secondary was wired in parallel to the cell. Basically what I am getting at is the fact that we are driving a transformer that has a load on it. If the primary was say 10 volts, and the windings were a 1:10 ratio, we would get 100 volts out. If the secondary was built as a standard transformer, we would only get ac voltage out of the transformer unless we rectify it, but, we would absorb 100% of the load of the cell if wired in parallel from the secondary to the cell. I am stating we have two separate feeds here on Bob's system, and it isn't looking like power is coming from anywhere other than the pwm (1/3rd to 1/2 of the power) and 50 -75% is coming from the rectified and filtered AC mains.
Where else is theToroid supposed to be getting it's energy? It doesn't have a massive antenna coming from it, nor does it have a big open coil that's grounded on one end to obtain voltage from the clouds, or anywhere else. The Bias is basically just making the magnetic flux flow in one direction to make the system more efficient as Charles Flynn's invention does. Let's not look too deep here because I have a feeling there isn't the correct data left here for anybody to build this correctly. I have been working on this for quite some time now, and nobody has offered their assistance. If Bob had the ability to help,. we would all be in governmental jeopardy .
Try my windings with a smaller, maybe 24 gauge wire for the primaries, and then wire the secondary to give 10 times the input and i bet you will obtain some sort of effective result . The low pass filters (chokes and caps) will still reduce the amperage, but, they will reduce the out put due to the higher frequencies being completely filtered out.
Oh, BTW, avalanche is absolutely normal with transistors, so, when having a high voltage bias and a low voltage bias, be sure to wrap enough windings so you have a low enough load, and keep the cell or a dummy load wired into the circuit so you do not get this. I have driven mine into avalanche and no lightning occured other than the bolt that comes out of the toroid due to the heavy magnetic vortex that was created. The transformer will output 3 times the load, and 3 times the voltage using a High Bias, so, you may get 600-1000 volts, which will feel like lightning, but, it can be very dangerous since it will have 3 times the current, and be just like being hit by a high voltage power line. Mine discharged to the ground behind my station, so, I was very fortunate. I didn't see clouds being manufactured or anything of the sort. The magnetic field will be very weak at a heavy load, at merely 38 turns as Bob states, so, you will only load up the power supply and it will not do a thing. . Look up online how to build an electromagnet. The videos will prove that you will need hundreds if not thousands of turns to make this very effective and have nearly no load, creating a very strong field. This is nothing new, Charles Flynn has created this, and applied it to his transformer's magnetic core to make them 3 times as efficient as they normally would be. (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atUTu8sg94w ) Thane Hiens, Charles Flynn, and others have done this, which their ouputs differed a bit in similar ways. Thane used two cores in one unit to eliminate the flux from the primary coil, and flynn used the magnet to make the flux resistance free. Magnetic flux has resistance just like an electric circuit, but, of course our laws of physics that were do9cumented must have left this out whenm they wrote the books because they make it look like we are breaking the laws of physics when we use a magnet to a core, it is really only allowing 100% of the power to be released, and we normally see massive 70% loss in this situation without a magnetic bias. Bob didn't invent this, he saw this in his research from guys like Flynn, Hendershot, and many others, and there is another fellow named Zeeman who built the magnetic bias for substation power, which is still used till this day. (called Zeeman's Energy) There are all sorts of methods out there, but, I don't think this circuit will consist of "Longitudinal Energy", or power from the skies. The word Longitudinal merely means it is acquired "length wise", and i think this was made up to rename the energy gained by the magnetic flux efficiency that's created by the electromagnetic winding or "bias winding" that's all!!
Regards,
AdvancedH20
Okay, Let me say from the start a lot of this is over my head already, but I will tell you what I have done and my results so far. First at 160vdc [1.6v per plate] and no leaks or bypass you have no production. Zero, zzzzillch. 50% duty cycle is about the best you could hope for on the g board with out frying the fets, but this is opposite of what you want. According to Bob and others a very fast,sharp rise and fall times is what is needed to tap the ZPE. To achieve this, the duty cycle needs to be between 90 and 95%. Since this board switches neg.this is 5 to 10% on time. At these settings, the output of the board is about 12.5 to 13vdc and about 35milamps. Absolutely no production at these low voltages. I have sat for hours on end slowly turning the fine trimpots, going thru the complete range on all 3 freq. at many different duty cycles. As you said earlier, many different things going on here. On one hand we are to believe that this fast ,sharp rise in switching times is what is needed to disturb the zero point energys and to get our gain, [many at this site agree with this]. At this low power I can not see how the freq. can have any effect on the cell. I have seen nothing yet. I have went the 50, 60% duty cycle way as well, burning up many fets and caps . Even tried replacing them with heaver ones with no different results. Back to the chokes. I have tried solid copper, stranded and even bifiller with several different cores. [in the early D9 docs. there was no specs given]. Shouldn`t the chokes help contain the freq. to inside the cell to get resonance ? I can see my 3 freq. behind the bridge and have seen it at the battery as well.