A green and clean environment is a human right!
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on November 25, 2012, 19:46:40 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANIeycEhe2o&feature=channel&list=UL
Look at 6:17
It takes 15 volts to ionize HHO.
Then he makes some bangs with his HHO in this and some other video of him.
I thought today to test this, because this brought back some memories to my earlier platecells.
I think i can confirm the fact that the bang is much louder if you use normal tapwater and higher voltage then that you comply to the law of electrolysis and use KOH with water and run it on a 1,48v level.
Same amount of gas, bangs really different!
This dude is right.
Thats why i ran my engines much better on my smaller cells with higher voltage per plate then when i made bigger cells and the engine didnt run better with more gas!
This is something to remember.
For you boosterboys, i think that you should change designs.....
Steve
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Actually, the guy writes further that he then uses sunlight to saturate the proton of the watermolecule.
Is that possible? Can protons be saturated by some kind of UV light source?
Steve
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got it..
Ozone in the ozone layer filters out sunlight wavelengths from about 200 nm UV rays to 315 nm, with ozone peak absorption at about 250 nm.[17] This ozone UV absorption is important to life, since it extends the absorption of UV by ordinary oxygen and nitrogen in air (which absorbs all wavelengths < 200 nm) through the lower UV-C (200 nm-280 nm) and the entire UV-B band (280 nm-315 nm).
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more:
One clever trick that has never quite worked is using ozone instead of oxygen. Energy is needed to cram an extra oxygen atom into the standard two-atom oxygen molecule. When you burn ozone you get the normal energy from combustion, plus that extra bit back. This additional energy results in a Ve (when burned with hydrogen) of around 4700 m/s, much like fluorine but without all that nasty active chemistry in the exhaust products. Problem is, ozone is metastable, and tends to spontaneously revert to standard oxygen, releasing the energy uncontrollably. The low temperature of liquid ozone slows this but doesn't completely eliminate it. And if one molecule decomposes, the energy released may cause two or three others to let go, starting a chain reaction which detonates your launch vehicle on the pad. Or your storage tanks in the tank farm.
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My conclusion for this day is:
It seems that electrolysis with a higher voltage between electrodes provide oxygen and hydrogen atoms which are in a higher energy state.
If you add UV light, lower then 350nm to the fresh HHO gas, you create O3, which is ozon. If you burn ozon with hydrogen, you get even more power.
Stage 1 is normale electrolysis with basic HHO gas (you need a lot of it)
Stage 2 is + 15 volts and higher electrolysis with HHO gas in a higher energy state. ( you need less amount of gas)
Stage 3 is same as stage 2 plus UV light to push the fresh oxygen atoms from the HHO gas into ozon. ( You need even less gas then stage 2)
If anybody has ideas or comments........
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In my opinion, Ozone is the exact opposite of what we ultimately want to achieve. The opposite of Ozone is highly charged(positive) Oxygen atoms or otherwise known as "Nascent", "Ionized", or even "Monoatomic" in some cases. The same goes for Hydrogen, although, there is only one electron to deal with. The higher voltages of 15V and on up can easily ionize both O2 and H2 to their monoatomic state resulting in increased energy output from the combustion of the two gases.
Unstable gases such as these don't stay fully charged for very long. To get the most energy from the process, the nascent gases need to be used almost instantly after the disassociation occurs. It doesn't take very much time before these atoms become stable again to form O2, O3, H2, and the likes. Atoms don't like to be unstable and will do almost anything to get back to a stable state.
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great from your post, i thought about this.
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=825
then later version of wfc,it is very small.cause that way.ionize+laser to ambient air.
maybe need hho only 4.8 lpm for run 100km/h.
thanks
geenee
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Well, after watching this video, I think I need to re-examine my thoughts... What do you think about this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foIWltOShO0&feature=r-vrec
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Well, after watching this video, I think I need to re-examine my thoughts... What do you think about this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foIWltOShO0&feature=r-vrec
Mindblowing......
Thats a smart man....
It seems that we still do not know everything about electrolysis systems.
The test with the plastic cards prove the alpha particles!
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great from your post, i thought about this.
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=825
then later version of wfc,it is very small.cause that way.ionize+laser to ambient air.
maybe need hho only 4.8 lpm for run 100km/h.
thanks
geenee
10cc is what this fellow researcher needed...
Further, the story is similar. Warm water, ionized water with salt, a pulsed DC voltage at almost 80 volts and 68 amps.
The result is a highly energized HHO gas with steam. Those two components do well in engines...
Steve
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You got to read this....
http://unicorn.ps.uci.edu/H2A/handouts/PDFs/LectureA4.pdf
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The question is how much we want or need to ionize the hydrogen atom.
Accoording to theory,14 volts is the minimum. 20 volts is getting the electron of the hydrogen atom to some higher levels, like n4.
This is the Schrödingers theory.
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Absorption of ultra-violet radiation
Because bonds between atoms in molecules have varying strengths, it takes different amounts of energy to break them down. The bond between the two oxygen atoms in an oxygen molecule (O2) is really strong and can only be broken down if the molecule absorbs very high energy UV-C radiation. The bonds between the oxygen atoms in ozone are a bit weaker and can be broken down by absorption of slightly less energetic UV-B radiation. Absorption of this highly energetic, short wavelength, radiation by O2 and O3 in the upper atmosphere prevents it reaching the troposphere and destroying O2 and O3 there. Less energetic radiation (with longer wavelengths) reaches the surface of the Earth.
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http://www.spartanwatertreatment.com/UV-ozone-destruction.html
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http://www.spartanwatertreatment.com/UV-ozone-destruction.html
I like that link... if you havent been to my old yahoo group -Hydroxy Boost- which is now - water4gas- long story but i gave hydroxy boost away and then Earl changed its name to water4gas... but any way i think you would find alot of interesting files and links posted by me (burnhydroxy) on there.. or ill go and see if there is anything saved there that mite perk ur interests as well :)
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http://www.spartanwatertreatment.com/UV-ozone-destruction.html
I like that link... if you havent been to my old yahoo group -Hydroxy Boost- which is now - water4gas- long story but i gave hydroxy boost away and then Earl changed its name to water4gas... but any way i think you would find alot of interesting files and links posted by me (burnhydroxy) on there.. or ill go and see if there is anything saved there that mite perk ur interests as well :)
Hi Newguy,
It seems that you know your way at the water4gas site....
I might suggest you copy the interesting parts to here, somewhere.
I really appreciate your interest in this topic. There is much to gain in this subject.
More then most people think, from my point of view....
Steve
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Dear members,
Please answer my question:
Is the burnrate of hydrogen a constant?
Is the speed quicker if hydrogen is in a higher energy state or is it the same as in lower energy states?
Is the burnrate of ortho hydrogen the same as from para hydrogen?
If anybody has a hint, please please answer.
Steve
http://www.thch.uni-bonn.de/pctc/bargon/PHIP/parahydrogen.html
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Ok, i did some things wrong in my previous statements.
The amount of EV to bring the hydrogen atom into full ionization state is 13,6V.
This is the state that the electron leaves the last orbit of the proton.
This is the most energetic state of the hydrogen ion.
The trick is to keep it at that level. I think here comes in the electron extraction idea of Meyer.
Steve
ps.
This works with water with no additives, like KOH or whatever you use...
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Now the oxygen atom.... 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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see topic:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=642.0
stumbled upon this from this site.
"I will deal with your questions one at a time.
1) Oxygen ionizes in the presence of an energy discharge such as a
UltraViolet lamp. Do the ionized oxygen atoms remain ionized as long
as they are in the presence of the energy field?
Once the oxygen atoms are ionized, they enter into a series of very rapid
reactions, including recombinations with electrons to become neutral
species again. They do not "remain ionized" much at all. But there is a
continuing pool of ionized oxygen atoms because new ones are being formed
all the time.
A side issue: you cannot form oxygen ions with a UV lamp. The quartz
windows of the lamp will only transmit light of wavelength 160 nm or more;
oxygen will only ionize efficiently in UV light of wavelength 130 nm or
less. The oxygen reaction that you can drive with a UV lamp involves
neutral atomic oxygen, which can be generated by photodissociation with
light of 210 nm or less. The easier and more usual way to generate oxygen
ions is in an electrical discharge.
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2) How soon after being ionized do the oxygen atoms reform into Ozone?
Much less than one second. But the reaction that forms ozone does not
involve oxygen ions; ozone is formed by
O + O2 + inert third molecule ---> O3 + third molecule
Atomic oxygen (O) is readily formed from oxygen ions; molecular oxygen (O2)
is abundantly present in air anyway.
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3) If an ionized oxygen atom has a -2 charge, how can these atoms
bond into Ozone when they should be magnetically repulsed by one
another?
Ionized oxygen, as formed in an electrical discharge or by very low
wavelength UV light has a +1 charge. The most readily formed ion is
molecular oxygen missing one electron: O2+ . Atomic oxygen missing one
electron, O+ , also enters into the reaction system, but it is a much
higher energy species. Because of the electrostatic repulsion (not
magnetic) between ions with like charge, the chemical reactions in the
system do not involve two ions reacting together; it is always one ion with
a neutral species.
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4) Is there some way to speed up the decomposition of Ozone?
There are many ways to speed up the decomposition of ozone. Ozone (O3) is a
high energy form of oxygen, so it is quite ready to revert to the lower
energy, more stable form of molecular oxygen (O2). There are many ways of
achieving the transformation. Atomic chlorine or bromine -- from molecular
chlorine or bromine and visible light -- are particularly effective as gas
phase catalysts, as is nitric oxide. Nearly all organic substances are
directly oxidized by ozone. Rubber perishes very rapidly into a powdery
heap, for example. Reducing solutions -- ferrous sulfate or potassium
iodide -- will effectively remove ozone from a gas bubbled through them.
"
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http://www.knowledgedoor.com/2/elements_handbook/ionization_energies_part_3.html
Hydrogen I (1) 13.598433 eV
Oxygen
I (1)
13.61805 eV
II (2)
35.1211 eV
III (3)
54.9355 eV
IV (4)
77.41353 eV
V (5)
113.8990 eV
VI (6)
138.1197 eV
VII (7)
739.29 eV
VIII (8)
871.4101 eV
Ionizing oxygen needs 871 eV?
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Hello Steve
this are the energies for each electron. 871 is only the innermost electron...
Here at the physics department they got a linear accelerator and they mess up with oxygen charge to get it accelerated to 9Mev
They initially give two electrons to the oxygens so the get an initial charge, than they accelerate it to a certain degree where than the oxygen is ionized again but at this time taking out 6 electrons i guess, than it is further accelerated... if i remember well.
A potential difference of 2000v should be able to ionize providing the mean free path is big and you get some free electrons to start with.. this mean a hot filament and some vacuum.
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Actually sub-sequential ionization is possible if the relation between electric field and mean free path is right. This mean that most the molecules in the volume will get ionized at once by a cascading event... however if this happens it should appear to the source as a short circuit, since ionized atoms will hit the cathode and extract electrons from it.
A forum member use to tell this theory in the past, without knowing this high current problem... since he never came across it.
If you think about this is where a choke is needed in home laser devices, to impede shorting the source... since the coil will fight changes in current.
with water should be the same?
raise the volts up to the point where current flows?
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http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/proj/advanced/spectraltypes/energylevels.asp#graph
amp*volt/sec = watt/sec = joule
Calculate the photon energy of light (in J) with a wavelength of 254 nm
E=hf is the photon energy. We can sub in v/w for f and h is plancks constant which is 6.63x10^-34
E = h(v/w) = 6.63x10^-34 x ((3x10^8)/254x10^-9)
= 7.83x10^-19J
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great stuff guys!
Has anyone ever looked into tunnel ionization? it seems that its not restricted by classical physics.
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Actually sub-sequential ionization is possible if the relation between electric field and mean free path is right. This mean that most the molecules in the volume will get ionized at once by a cascading event... however if this happens it should appear to the source as a short circuit, since ionized atoms will hit the cathode and extract electrons from it.
A forum member use to tell this theory in the past, without knowing this high current problem... since he never came across it.
If you think about this is where a choke is needed in home laser devices, to impede shorting the source... since the coil will fight changes in current.
with water should be the same?
raise the volts up to the point where current flows?
Interesting!
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After all the ionizing research is done... what then? Im wandering what are the goals of the ones posting in this thread or even those that have yet to post with the ionizing research?
Steve what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Seb what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Dave?
Please be as specific as possible and with just a first goal for now please.
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After all the ionizing research is done... what then? Im wandering what are the goals of the ones posting in this thread or even those that have yet to post with the ionizing research?
Steve what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Seb what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Dave?
Please be as specific as possible and with just a first goal for now please.
Thats simple.
To be able to use water as a fuel in the future.
Run generators on it.
Ionizing should reduce the amount of gas needed.
I had ran two engines on hho.
With different types of cells.
The more i followed the electrolysis path, the more i ended no where.
The engines ran worse and worse and i produced more and more gas!
Efficiency of ca 150% faraday did not bring better running engines.
Now i understand why.
You now understand?
Steve
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The way I see it, at this point...
Unstable gases, such as, H+ and O+, have a greater energy output from it's combustion than a typical O2 + H2 reaction. Agreed?
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energy from hydrogen 1kg powerful 2.5x than energy from gasoline 1kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) .but why run worse on engine?cause burn rate(325cm/s).engine need pressure(heat to air) or power to push a piston.the meaning is recycled non-combustion gas back to fire again(maintain burn rate to ~45cm/s).that can fix that problem.
thanks
geenee
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I guess it runs worst because probably theres too much water content in the gas... or the burn rate is wrong...
Probably the intake of the engine should have a valve to regulate the amount air going into the mixture... probably some vacuum would be required to achieve the best mix... maybe some pressure charging..
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energy from hydrogen 1kg powerful 2.5x than energy from gasoline 1kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) .but why run worse on engine?cause burn rate(325cm/s).engine need pressure(heat to air) or power to push a piston.the meaning is recycled non-combustion gas back to fire again(maintain burn rate to ~45cm/s).that can fix that problem.
thanks
geenee
Geenee,
The burnrate is another issue. From my point of view, if you have less and less hydrogen in your mix, you automatically lower the burnrate of the gasmix in the cylinder, because of the nitrogen in the ambient air.
Steve
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TEST
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After all the ionizing research is done... what then? Im wandering what are the goals of the ones posting in this thread or even those that have yet to post with the ionizing research?
Steve what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Seb what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Dave?
Please be as specific as possible and with just a first goal for now please.
I'm most interested in removing 4 electrons from the 2p sub shell of oxygen. Or at least a few of them. I'd like to see proof of concept of Stan's injector technology by mixing positively charged oxygen with excited water mist and trying to ignite it. The charged oxygen will hopefully take electrons from the excited water mist leading to the breakdown of the molecule. Stan calls for a positively charged gas, but nitrogen is very stable and hard to ionize.
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After all the ionizing research is done... what then? Im wandering what are the goals of the ones posting in this thread or even those that have yet to post with the ionizing research?
Steve what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Seb what are your goals with the ionizing research?
Dave?
Please be as specific as possible and with just a first goal for now please.
I'm most interested in removing 4 electrons from the 2p sub shell of oxygen. Or at least a few of them. I'd like to see proof of concept of Stan's injector technology by mixing positively charged oxygen with excited water mist and trying to ignite it. The charged oxygen will hopefully take electrons from the excited water mist leading to the breakdown of the molecule. Stan calls for a positively charged gas, but nitrogen is very stable and hard to ionize.
Thats perfect... have you ever seen one these power supplies?
http://www.colestaticcontrol.com/pulseddc.htm
Im looking for patents on these type of power supplies to hopefully get a more detailed look at ther functions.. a few simple and some very complex.
I found one patent using that paticular PS but its not even citing it :(
US2012247503 (A1)
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Ok.
Hard payed test info, all free for you.
I thought i was on the right path, but i wasnot.
Ionizing the output of an electrolizer is of no use, because the gas seems to be ionized already orso.
At least, my UV setup of 20watts of output into the gas didnt make any difference.
The HHO was banging the same with or without my charging/ionizing chamber.....
Toooooo bad.......... another experiment that was not working... >:( >:( >:(
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So, now you wonder what the next step will be.
Meyer explained it in basics.
Try to get the protons of the watermolecule to accept photons. Charge the proton with a photon.
You follow?
Here a doc that tells you how to do it!
source: http://www.espere.net/Unitedkingdom/water/uk_absorption.htm
Radiation coming from the sun and re-emitted by the earth hits molecules in the air. If the energy of this radiation matches the energy necessary to create particular oscillations of the molecules (to "excite" them), the radiation energy is taken up (=absorbed) and stored in the air itself.
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Hold on Steve, I think you may be jumping to conclusions. If you managed to create cations with your setup, they would not last long. The ejected electrons need to go somewhere and in this case they will be captured by previously created cations. I believe you would of just created a circle of ionization and then a return to ground state. Maybe you could insert an electron filter.
This would explain your results. I think you are onto the right track :)
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Hi Dave,
Please continue to correct me if i am wrong :) i like that.
Here is more:
Incoming sun's light aka Photon Absorption Process causes to deflect the orbital electron (s) to a higher energy-state away from the atom nucleus as so illustrated in (520) of Figure (5-3) as to (540) of Figure (5-7) once the atom nucleus absorbs the inflowing photon energy (537). The deflected electron (s), in turn, applies an increase/greater electrical-stress (A' A) onto the gyroscopic spin-velocity of the nucleus particles (570) of Figure (5-10) as to (550) of Figure (5-8) ... causing Energy Aperture (7) of Figure (5-10) to oscillate as a "Energy Generator" ... releasing Universal Energy (9) of Figure (5-10) into the atom nucleus· ... allowing Atomic Energy Level Adjustment (540) of Figure (5-7) to take place, as illustrated in (970) of Figure (512) ... re-energizing the water molecule for hydrogen reuse, as illustrated in (530) of Figure (5-6).
See attachement
Stan used photonic energy to accelerate the electrons from the nucleus in the waterbath.....
Thats why he called his car the SOLAR WATER CAR......
First he charges the nucleus and electrons by means of photonic energy.
The flow of energy going into the nucleus is a one way valve, he writes.....!!!! It stays there after you opend the gates.
Then he breaks down the molecule in H and O atoms and ions.
Then he adds ionized ambient air to the engine and gets in totall a hugh bang for his money....
Thats what i think....
Thats what i want to test...

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Ok.
Hard payed test info, all free for you.
I thought i was on the right path, but i wasnot.
Ionizing the output of an electrolizer is of no use, because the gas seems to be ionized already orso.
At least, my UV setup of 20watts of output into the gas didnt make any difference.
The HHO was banging the same with or without my charging/ionizing chamber.....
Toooooo bad.......... another experiment that was not working... >:( >:( >:(
Would it be possible for you to meter 11% ionized air,being careful to destroy any ozone into your gas stream and then ignite it?
Measure the magnetic field in gauss and multiply that by 4,250 to get the frequency
It seems as if after reading some of that MEMO, Stan emplies bringing both electrons down to a para state...I allways assumed we wanted them both in an ortho state wich in room temperature water is a 50/50 mix.It takes a 1826 guass magnetic field to bring both protons in a water molecule into an ortho state..(resonate action/7.6 Mhz OR lower sub-harmonic frequency.) using the ortho state of water at 25 degrees C. as an example of resonate action its then when both the electrons can absorb the energy it needs provided the energy is at its absorbing intensity(frequency) and amplitude(wat/s) to be ejected from the molecule leaving a lone proton/hydrogen nucleus, .Using the 1826 guass magnetic ortho induced resonate action example.... the protons in the oxygen molecules are undergoing the same process Stan says, but I havent found any other documents explaining that process in a way I can understand just yet
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wow, I haven't read that since I had any idea what I was doing. Or I never read it at all.
I don't know to much about nuclear forces. Hopefully I will revisit this paper further down the road in my education.
What is this universal energy path he is talking about?
This paper differs from much of his other writings. He described a lot more happening to the nuclei.
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Meyers always stated that the whole package of patents together are telling the truth on how to run a car on water.
That was the only way to do so, because otherwise he wouldnt get the patents in the first place......
So, look at all patents. Look at the order in which it was written down.
I think the name of the buggy was a great hint! Solar water car........
Memo WFC 424 explains the solar part, from my point of view.
Everybody is working on VIC's, but the basis starts with the proton energizing process of the waterbath.
If you look carefull on the Dynodon picture of the waterfuelcell and look into the white bucket with all tubes in there, you also see room for a device in the middle of it.
You fill in the blancs......
Steve
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Meyers always stated that the whole package of patents together are telling the truth on how to run a car on water.
That was the only way to do so, because otherwise he wouldnt get the patents in the first place......
So, look at all patents. Look at the order in which it was written down.
I think the name of the buggy was a great hint! Solar water car........
Memo WFC 424 explains the solar part, from my point of view.
Everybody is working on VIC's, but the basis starts with the proton energizing process of the waterbath.
If you look carefull on the Dynodon picture of the waterfuelcell and look into the white bucket with all tubes in there, you also see room for a device in the middle of it.
You fill in the blancs......
Steve
Hey Steve,
That's just the collector space for waste particles falling to the bottom in the water tank reservoir. Think not?
Br,
Webmug
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Is also an option.... ;D
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“With a high proportion of parahydrogen you get a terrific degree of polarization,” says Ledbetter. “The catch is, it’s spin zero. It doesn’t have a magnetic moment, so it doesn’t give you a signal! But all is not lost….”
Ortho hydrogen seems to have a magnetic state of form.
See Aarons blog. I think he has a proper explanation here...
http://aaronmurakami.com/blog/2011/02/12/magnetic-fuel-saver-debunking-mainstream-pseudoscience/
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Hey Steve, found some interesting reading.. not sure where this link should be placed but its something;
http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/libros/aceleradores2.pdf
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nice paper.. :-*
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energy from hydrogen 1kg powerful 2.5x than energy from gasoline 1kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) .but why run worse on engine?cause burn rate(325cm/s).engine need pressure(heat to air) or power to push a piston.the meaning is recycled non-combustion gas back to fire again(maintain burn rate to ~45cm/s).that can fix that problem.
thanks
geenee
the more hydrogen gas you produce , the farther towards TDC the timing has to go..at some point you are running on 100% HHO and zero gasoline, by then the ignition timing has to be around 5 degrees after TDC because of the high combustion rate of hydrogen..does this help explain why making more HHO gas results in a worse running engine?
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Hold on Steve, I think you may be jumping to conclusions. If you managed to create cations with your setup, they would not last long. The ejected electrons need to go somewhere and in this case they will be captured by previously created cations. I believe you would of just created a circle of ionization and then a return to ground state. Maybe you could insert an electron filter.
This would explain your results. I think you are onto the right track :)
yes...this is why the injectors were used in the 3rd generation of SM invention, the ionized gases are used immediately, no time to recombine electrons...also the electron extraction device and the fact that the delivery system to the injectors had no metal tubing...all plastic, no source of electrons to recombine with ionized ambient air...the exhaust gases, ionized ambient air, and HHO were all mixed in a delrin chamber /manifold before being sent to the injector/spark plug for final charge and at this point the alpha particles were created at the tip of the injector and the resulting shock wave / combustion moved the piston while probably creating helium because there werent enough electrons to recombine into water on combustion..thats where 4 years of research has me thinking...
BTW can someone find out if theres any documented research studies showing pulsing electrical fields combined with the photon bombardment resulting in a longer wavelength of light doing the same amount of electron ejection?
all the scientific papers and forum discussions speak of specific wavelengths to ionize specific gases, but when have we seen where the high voltage static field pulling the electrons to one side and the protons to the opposite side actually allows a different wavelength of light to do the work?
example 120nm UV without HV field...but maybe regular red leds with HV field? is this why stans hydrogen gas gun from 1992 was able to work using those RED LEDs from radioshack? i dont think there were any UV LEDs in those days...
of course Stan Meyers explained this in his videos, but its a difficult search term to construct when researching the net...
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Maybe the high electricity potential alters each band's effective wavelength because of orbital expansion , each orbit has it's own effective frequency.
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Details
Structure: N2
Name: nitrogen
Author(Year): Huffman(1963)
Temperature: 295K
Wavelength range: 66-79nm
Bibliography:
R.E. Huffman, Y. Tanaka, and J.C. Larrabee, "Absorption coefficients of nitrogen in the 100-580 Å wavelength region," J. Chem. Phys. 39, 910-925 (1963).
Comments:
Absorption maxima
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It seems logical to me that if we apply an electric field and stretch out the molecules a higher wavelength would be absorbed. The further an electron is from the protons the lower its ionization energy.
I haven't found any papers on this
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More info to confuse you....
Mostly concurring with the above answers: what you describe is what happens when an atom absorbs a photon. In fact it's only approximately what happens. Changing the orbit of an electron about a nucleus changes the position/velocity/wavefunction of both the electron and the nucleus, and a transition in one electron changes all the electron-electron interactions so that the wavefunctions of the "spectator" electrons all change too. But those changes are all small, since the electron whose orbit changes has a mass thousands of times smaller than the mass of the nucleus, and since the electron whose orbit changes exerts only a small part of the force on any of the spectator electrons. For most transitions the approximation that only one electron orbit changes is good enough to be useful.
You have a suggestion above that nuclear magnetic resonance is that happens when a nucleus absorbs a photon. I would disagree: nmr is also a process where photons are absorbed and emitted by the entire atom, as a collective object. There the transition in the atom is, in the same sort of approximation, a change in the angles between the spin of the nucleus, the spins of the outermost electrons, and the planes of the electrons' orbits. NMR transitions use low energy (audio- or radio-frequency) photons because the changes involve the magnetic fields of the subatomic particles, whose interactions carry less energy than those involving the electric fields. But because of the way that different sorts of spin mix in quantum mechanics, you don't get to say "aha! I've flipped the spin of a nucleus!" unless you add some extra experimental cleverness.
If you're comfortable with the idea of an electron jumping orbits, there is a useful model for thinking about what happens when a nucleus does absorb a photon. You might remember that the reason for talking about "inner" and "outer" electrons is that electrons obey the exclusion principle. A given electron orbit can only hold two electrons, one with each spin; once the orbit is full, any extra electrons have to go into a higher, less tightly bound orbit. Well, protons and neutrons in the nucleus also obey the exclusion principle, and so their orbits within the nucleus also pile on top of each other in the same way as the orbits of the electrons pile onto the atom. The approximation that protons and neutrons (together, nucleons) are independent particles which can jump between well-defined paths is not so good as the approximation that atomic electrons are independent particles jumping between their well-defined orbitals, but it's good enough to expand into a quantitatively useful statement of what happens when a nucleus absorbs a gamma ray.
Finally there's the possibility of a photon with so much energy that it excites a nucleon directly, instead of just rearranging the nucleons inside of a nucleus. Some other folks have already alluded to this above: the first excited state of the nucleon is a particle called the delta, Δ. You might expect based on the explanations above that the Δ could be described as a proton with one of its three quarks in some sort of an excited orbit. It turns out this is not a good approximation: there's not any "shell model" approximation for the quarks in a nucleon that gives quantitatively useful results. It turns out that it is quantitatively useful to describe a Δ as an unstable "atom" made of a nucleon orbited by a pi meson. So a reasonable hand-waving model of the Δ resonance is that a photon creates a quark-antiquark pair in the vicinity of a proton, over the (brief!) lifetime of the Δ particle the four quarks and one antiquark arrange themselves into a nucleon and a pion, and then the pion falls off.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:14 PM on May 10, 2010
Several things can happen. First, if the energy of the photon is too low, the photon could just scatter off of the proton - this is especially true if it is a "free" proton, which is just an ionized hydrogen atom; however, there isn't a huge amount of H sitting around - it is the most metallic element, and as such, quickly acquires an electron and bonds with something else (often another hydrogen atom) to make a molecule.
Given this, in a theoretical case where you have a free proton, the will just scatter off of the much larger (and more energetic) proton in most cases (if the energy of the electron isn't sufficiently high). Keep in mind, however, that a proton is a hadron, and as such, is made up of 3 quarks - it is not a fundamental particle, like the electron. Given enough energy, you could produce (a very improbable, due to the energy required and the number of vertices in the Feynman diagram) an interaction such that the photon scatters off an electron (or a virtual one), and the electron is energetic enough to produce deep inelastic scattering, which was first used to prove the existence of quarks. You *could* - although it is very unlikely - have the scattered electron hit the proton and produce a neutron and an anti-electron neutrino. A similar process, known as inverse beta decay, occurs *within* some radioactive atoms, but here the proton isn't free, and it "swallows" one of it's own electrons.
For photons interacting with protons in a nucleus, it is possible to change the nucleus's total spin state (which has to do with adding up all the spins in the nucleus using nasty Clebsch-Gordan coefficients and Lie Algebra and is in no way as simple as adding two ups to a down and getting an up spin). But in this case, the photon isn't interacting with a single proton, but rather a collection of protons and neutrons in the nucleus to change its overall energy state. In this respect, photon-nucleus scattering is a little similar to photon/atomic electron scattering in that there is a discrete number of energy levels in the nucleus (none in between), and a photon, if it has the EXACT energy required, can cause a transition from one energy level to another. In most cases, there is no definitive answer to your question, because as with all quantum mechanics, it is probabilistic in nature and you can't know what will happen until the interaction occurs. For the most part, protons do not often interact with protons individually.
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Im sure alot of ppl here are familar with Herman Anderson but just as things seem to click after much of Stans research some of Hermans research might click for some as well... take for example at 15:30 from his interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsTij4N4uw
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Im sure alot of ppl here are familar with Herman Anderson but just as things seem to click after much of Stans research some of Hermans research might click for some as well... take for example at 15:30 from his interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzsTij4N4uw
Thanks for the great video!
I ll try to download it and to put it here in the Hermans topic..
Steve
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interesting.. did meyer ever say what kind of ionization did he use?
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Hey guys Im new to the forum just wanted to say its awesome and lots of good info here. I just had a thought my rig is tube setup with 16th inch gap using auto ign. coils set in anti parallel providing a high and low output HV pulse. Im toying around with the UV led idea got the parts on order but their not here yet what if the secrect is matching the pulse frequency not only of the high voltage field but the UV led and the gas ionizer.Anyone try matching pulse freqs on all three like say the tubes pulsed at say 3 khz then the led's would be at 3khz then so on and so forth. Just a thought :)
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Hey guys Im new to the forum just wanted to say its awesome and lots of good info here. I just had a thought my rig is tube setup with 16th inch gap using auto ign. coils set in anti parallel providing a high and low output HV pulse. Im toying around with the UV led idea got the parts on order but their not here yet what if the secrect is matching the pulse frequency not only of the high voltage field but the UV led and the gas ionizer.Anyone try matching pulse freqs on all three like say the tubes pulsed at say 3 khz then the led's would be at 3khz then so on and so forth. Just a thought :)
Welcome to ionizationx, ntdeamon.
Interesting setup you have.
Pictures and schematics tell more storys then words....
If you want any input we need to know what yr doing..
:)
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Definitely will post pics of setup when I can wife and I just moved have to unpack and reassemble the setup might make some changes as well looking forward to this spring though. Goal is to run my 88 Integra 1.6l on full hho