A green and clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => Sebosfato => Topic started by: sebosfato on September 01, 2012, 16:23:42 pm
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I discussed with my teacher and i think i concluded how the reaction occurs in the water during the application of the electric fields of high intensity...
First as meyer said the molecules will try to align with the field
A dipole subjected to an electric field not only aligns but its first action is to oscillate rotating back and forth around its center of mass at a given frequency function of the electric field... so there is a kind of resonance implied too... this oscillation believed to be damped by thermal agitation however...
Each pulse will input charge into the water molecule that has the ability of retain a charge... It starts to stretch and finally the bound switch off and monoatomic hydrogen is generated, as they were subjected to forces the hydrogen has a physical separation from the oxygen and thereto recombination is avoided. It would need a spark to recombine...
The monoatomic atoms are reactive and will get attached to the first thing it collides with... as there was a region full of hydrogen atoms H2 will form liberating heat.... similarly for oxygen...
I argue with my teacher that argon for example will ionize under high electric fields and she said that the electric fields necessary can be calculated but is a quite hard task... i guess the result could be what meyer aways says that is not required too much electric field since the dipole of the water molecule is already bent and non stable in its nature... he says frequently that only a potential can disrupt the forces by changing the time share ratio of the covalent pairs...
I mean if you take the problem static the molecule has one force... but the calculation could show that the as it starts to be distorted by the field the attraction force can decay with non linear, or quantized fashion... well different from models used by science because science only use the simpler as possible situations to study...
An example is the impossibility to calculate electron density in atoms with more than 2 electrons. hahaha
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Oh boy...
If at one electrode oxygen is generated and at the other hydrogen is generated in the middle of the cell the hydrogens liberated from the oxygen recombines with the oxygens liberated from the hydrogens at the other electrode... so if they recombine something got to happen... let me guess why meyer called it a water fuel cell that generates its own electricity....
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A. (ambient state) random
B. Alignment of polar fields
C. Polarisation of molecule
D. Molecular elongation
E. Atom liberation by breakdown of covalent bond
F. Release of gases
Seb,
You see the point of the step-like charging effect. It takes time to effect the water molecule with the voltage pulses. A to F process.
This is what Meyer said. And when the molecule is split the Oxygen and Hydrogen will not recombine.
Just all theory 8)
Orientation Polarization
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/backbone/r3_2_4.html (http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/backbone/r3_2_4.html)
Exercise 3.2-1 Maximum Polarization of Water
http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/exercise/s3_2_1.html (http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/exercise/s3_2_1.html)
Regards
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I believe the meaning of the step charging effect is what i described as successively increase in energy level as consequence of each pulse individually.
In the example you posted you show the electric field necessary to bring water to polarization... its a model considering the volume...
What i'm saying is that as the step charging takes place each step apply an electric field that charge the water while it retains this charge... so you don't need all that electric field calculated probably...
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I believe the meaning of the step charging effect is what i described as successively increase in energy level as consequence of each pulse individually.
In the example you posted you show the electric field necessary to bring water to polarization... its a model considering the volume...
What i'm saying is that as the step charging takes place each step apply an electric field that charge the water while it retains this charge... so you don't need all that electric field calculated probably...
Correct!!!
But I think we are not making progress in a practical way!
The WFC is still a very leaky water capacitor not holding any charge.
Got only some signals already shown from the VIC... ;D Looks like step-charging but no, I think it's not the step-like charging what Stan meant!!!
Also how do you test LC between resonant choke and WFC? Empy WFC?
Got any results with your VIC?
Regards
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Working on that... i want all perfectly matched before start pulsing because i'm afraid to burn the vic before the final tests...
The charge actually goes into the molecules and stay there when you apply an electric potential field and turn it off its called absorption... is a polarization effect... The energy goes to the micro capacitors... water molecules...
this is what reduce the voltage between parallel plates charged when you insert a dielectric..
similarly when you pulse the water the electric field you applied will create a opposite electric field of lower intensity that weakens the original field... when the voltage is disconnected... the electrons and holes in the electrodes neutralize within the water so the internal electric field become visible.. .
This don't happens if you apply a potential difference since the electric field you can sustain by flow of amps is too small....
The energy don't become heat only, it become atoms separation, oscillation.... increasing the electric potential or similarly decreasing the attraction force of the water molecule....
The far the charges are apart the weaker is the force between them right?
I meant step charging effect is the fact that you don't need to bang the water in one pulse... respecting a limit time it will let you do this job in few steps...
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Water high dielectric constant is responsible for the high solubility by dissociation into ions in water...
It works this way.. when salt for example is added to the water (an ionic substance) its ions will be surrounded by water molecules, that being a dielectric liquid 80 reduce the electric field attraction between the ions allowing them to keep somewhat independently separated from each other by thermal agitation...
It acts like a shield like.
Also for the water ions...
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Water high dielectric constant is responsible for the high solubility by dissociation into ions in water...
It works this way.. when salt for example is added to the water (an ionic substance) its ions will be surrounded by water molecules, that being a dielectric liquid 80 reduce the electric field attraction between the ions allowing them to keep somewhat independently separated from each other ...
It acts like a shield like.
Seb, do you think the WFC is a nonlinear capacitor?
regards!
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Certainly is... for example depending on the frequency the dielectric constant will have different positive or negative coefficient of change as function of temperature... The higher the voltage applied the greater is the interaction with the molecules too.... very non linear in my perspective...
The higher the electric field the lower will be the dielectric constant. Thats because the hydrogen bonds become partially disrupted allowing the molecules to "rotate" easier...
I took a look into the molecular orbital theory... very interesting... Meyer based his theory on this theory... not the valence bound theory i guess.. Because it is easier to consider excitation in molecular orbitals instead of hybridized orbitals...
My scientific background is missing some chemistry but i'm trying to improve it..
Regards
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Certainly is... for example depending on the frequency the dielectric constant will have different positive or negative coefficient of change as function of temperature... The higher the voltage applied the greater is the interaction with the molecules too.... very non linear in my perspective...
The higher the electric field the lower will be the dielectric constant. Thats because the hydrogen bonds become partially disrupted allowing the molecules to "rotate" easier...
Regards
Interesting link http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf original posted here
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=646&pid=7259#pid7259
Regards
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Also I'm not sure what Stan meant "tuning into to dielectric properties of water".
(c) Further subjecting in said capacitor to said pulsating electric field to achieve a pulse frequency such that the pulsating electric field induces a resonance within the water molecule;
It is known that the molecules have a resonance property "Resonance hybrids"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance_%28chemistry%29
The actual structure of a molecule in the normal quantum state has the lowest possible value of total energy. This structure is called the "resonance hybrid" of that molecule. The resonance hybrid is the approximate intermediate of the contributing structures, but the overall energy is lower than each of the contributors, due to the resonance energy.
Every structure is associated with a certain quantity of energy, which determines the stability of the molecule or ion (the lower energy, the greater stability). A resonance hybrid has a structure that is intermediate between the contributing structures; the total quantity of potential energy, however, is lower than the intermediate. Hybrids are therefore always more stable than any of the contributing structures would be.[9] The molecule is sometimes said to be "stabilized by resonance" or "resonance-stabilized," but the stabilization derives from electron delocalization, of which "resonance" is only a description. Delocalization of the π-electrons lowers the orbital energies, imparting this stability. The difference between the potential energy of the actual structure (the resonance hybrid) and that of the contributing structure with the lowest potential energy is called the "resonance energy".[5]
(d) Continuing the application of the pulsating frequency to the capacitor cell after resonance occurs so that the energy level within the molecule is increased in cascading incremental steps in proportion to the number of pulses;
So "tuning into to dielectric properties of water" is when you charge the molecule (the lower energy, the greater stability) or (the higher energy, the greater instability) ?
Regards
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It happens that all atoms tends to find the situation of lower energy possible... for example oxygen and hydrogen combusts, why? because when oxygen see the electron of the hydrogen and some small energy is provided, the oxygen atom will attract the hydrogen electrons while will repel the hydrogen atoms, also hydrogen will attract oxygen electrons and repel the protons.. this forces and geometrical configurations of the electronic clouds makes the atom to take a geometric form...The oxygen atom has a special intelligence because it wants to fill its orbitals to reach stable state aways.
as you see there is an attraction and a repelling force... And as a result you have a kind of mass spring system not very linear indeed "resonant" because is supposed to be quantized
The lone pairs repel each other distorting what would be a perfect tetrahedral structure making of it a bent molecule.
If i understand it correctly the covalent link up has electrons of opposite spins so they cancel out magnetic moment of the molecule... so there is no magnetic interaction in the link even if i feel it should play a rule.
So if you start to apply electric field forces on the molecule, this system will charge up like a spring... and than when the field turn off this energy remain in this water electronic resonance probably in the form of vibration, when the field is reapplied the molecules will get further stretched... step charging it...
The greater is the separation of the atoms the greater is the instability, so the greater is the potential energy of the molecule...
It works like this imagine a spring with a mass attached to it on the horizontal.. it can resonate at a frequency and reach maximum amplitude.
Now if you put a similar spring and a mass but now in the vertical, subjected by a unipolar force "gravity" the amplitude of the oscillation is much greater because the spring is stretched originally..
So if you apply a laser to the water an electric field is analogous..
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Maybe meyer worked around the spins of the electrons to prevent the water molecule to reform? as no two electrons of same spin can form a covalent bond...
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Certainly is... for example depending on the frequency the dielectric constant will have different positive or negative coefficient of change as function of temperature... The higher the voltage applied the greater is the interaction with the molecules too.... very non linear in my perspective...
The higher the electric field the lower will be the dielectric constant. Thats because the hydrogen bonds become partially disrupted allowing the molecules to "rotate" easier...
Regards
Interesting link http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf original posted here
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=646&pid=7259#pid7259
Regards
Did you understood if the capacitance parametric change to a greater or smaller value?
Water seems to parametrically change the dielectric value given the pulse is long enough? but its value decrease... the voltage increase... so is harder to get more charge into the capacitor...
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Certainly is... for example depending on the frequency the dielectric constant will have different positive or negative coefficient of change as function of temperature... The higher the voltage applied the greater is the interaction with the molecules too.... very non linear in my perspective...
The higher the electric field the lower will be the dielectric constant. Thats because the hydrogen bonds become partially disrupted allowing the molecules to "rotate" easier...
Regards
Interesting link http://aias.us/documents/miscellaneous/LCR-Resonant.pdf original posted here
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=646&pid=7259#pid7259
Regards
Did you understood if the capacitance parametric change to a greater or smaller value?
Water seems to parametrically change the dielectric value given the pulse is long enough? but its value decrease... the voltage increase... so is harder to get more charge into the capacitor...
Hmm...what about the frequency, is this constant or variable. Stan mentions the PLL for tuning due the impurities in the water between the exciters.
The Charging and Discharging of Nonlinear Capacitors
http://www.jrossmacdonald.com/jrmpubs/020NonlinearCapacitors.pdf
My understanding is that all capacitors are NON-LINEAR.
http://stoner.phys.uaic.ro/old/ANALE/Anale_1997_1998/An_Univ_Iasi_1997_1998_09.pdf
Stan said: when tuned into the dielectric properties of water the current drops dramatically to 1-2mA!!!! Could be strong non-linear behavior in a WFC?
On the other hand, the non-linear effect in ferroelectrics manifests at high fields and low frequencies. By increasing the frequency, the
ferroelectric system tends to become paraelectric and linear, but the very high field at resonance impose the strong non-linear behaviour.
Regards
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I think we are looking in the wrong direction about the restriction of current!
We need to start investigating the 180 degrees phase shift(voltage amplitudes) of the inductors Stan talked about in all his lectures.
What happens in the choke inductor to the current, it lags about 90 degrees to the voltage (theoretically for perfect inductors).
For sinusoidal waves, the voltage across an inductor leads the current through it by 90º
This is never the case on all frequencies according to LCR measurements on fixed frequencies (100,120, 1k, 10kHz)
I'm measuring +83.97 deg to +88.95 deg for chokes phases. And +34.19 deg to +88.93 deg without a core!!
For sinusoidal waves, the current through a capacitor leads the voltage across it by 90º
When we measure the WFC capacitor it not reads as a capacitor, only when it's empty!
Stan mentions in his documents that the WFC acts like a resistor on resonance? So there is no phase shift (0 deg).
Empty WFC is -9.09 deg to -78.4 deg.
Tap water WFC -41.2 deg to -1.57 deg.
Rain water WFC -9.28 deg to -0.822 deg.
Why did Stan use the adjustable symbol for the negative inductor? Yes, we know to adjust the equal but opposite voltages...
Question:
What happens when inductor current is almost 90 deg for chokes and if one choke is connected opposite polarity in respect to the voltages?
What if the phase is unequal and equal respect to each other and has this an restricting effect on current using the magnetic field in the UU-core of the VIC.
Regards!
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You got my attention, webmug.
Thats what Stan said. 180 degrees out of phase and the wfc acting as a resistor in the LCR resonating circuit.
With a bifilar coil, you also have capacitance of the two wires in parallel.
So you think you can get a 90 plus 90 degrees out of the two chokes?
Steve
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I will only know for sure if my theory is correct when and if it works... Concerning what stan said i think i remember he talking that he was applying to the water the electric fields in 90° before the current so leading current... Which i guess is the case with my theory, since the collapse is creating a second pulse with open circuit.
He stated that he used the electric fields in a manner as if it were potential energy, just like a gravity field... Did anyone tried to add a coil in parallel with the cell? This is the only way it could become a resonant circuit in which at resonance the current instead of raising it drops...
It would provide a discharge path for the ions since Dc has no impedance... if this coil is pulse together i guess it could be even better in restricting the dc amps... I think it would prevent the screening of the electric field by the ions...
Webmug, is strange that phase angles for the water... the phase angle will depend on the frequency... but i guess you need a resistive network to be able to properly measure it... and at resonance it should at least approach 90° or close to...
Again i don't know how you did it, but what i would do if i had an oscilloscope is this: use two oscilloscope probes to measure the voltage across the capacitor and the voltage across a resistor connected in series. Than feed with ac... I guess theres a special function at the oscilloscope to measure the phase angles than... Than you need to vary the frequency, the resistor, the voltage, measure the currents in all cases applied and plot a graph with your results... comparing the resistance to dc, impedance to ac... some can be learned from that...
In phasors diagrams you can understand the phase relation according to the capacitive resistive and inductive elements in a circuit... So its frequency dependent... The higher the Q factor the closer it can get to 90°... the higher the frequency the higher is the Q since the faradaic conduction is what is limiting the Q, so the smaller is the XC the greater is the Q...
What is bad about faradaic ac conduction is that it makes only half electrolysis and than it makes the contrary effect...
I mean did anyone ever tried to add a coil in parallel with the cell?
I would not be surprised if this is the coil that sets the frequency with a moveable wiper arm... Why, to accommodate the contaminants on the water... Since different water impurities concentration would change ion transit time...
Stan mentioned it would self oscillate until there still water in the cell, he meant a cell, cell, so if resonance is concerned, since we provide such a frequency that the ions can discharge into the resonating coil, 90° after the peak in electric field.. mean theres transit time for them to be separated... this discharge can be cooperative, meaning its indeed work as a cell, inputing electrical energy into the system... so far if a threshold is achieved it would sustain self oscillation..
I guess faxst freddy was doing this...
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Is there anyone in Puerto Rico?
Regarding the restriction of current thru the resistance of the wire, its related to the fact that during the collapse of the field, as the current just wants to start to flow it immediately create an equal and opposite voltage, so in that case what happens is the higher is the resistance the greater will be this voltage developed at the resistance for a given current flowing, at secondary coil for example such that the collapsed voltage is of a greater intensity...
I mean, if the wire is resistive in all coils the voltage developed by the current is subtracted to the collapsed voltage
The fracture cell patent says that stans patents although it really work fails in this amp restriction technics because it adds too much complexity... and is expensive according to them...
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I think we are looking in the wrong direction about the restriction of current!
Why did Stan use the adjustable symbol for the negative inductor? Yes, we know to adjust the equal but opposite voltages...
Question:
What happens when inductor current is almost 90 deg for chokes and if one choke is connected opposite polarity in respect to the voltages?
What if the phase is unequal and equal respect to each other and has this an restricting effect on current using the magnetic field in the UU-core of the VIC.
Regards!
Hey webmug, i guess the coils on the transformer core are not accounted for their impedance only for their resistance, as stans equations for impedance shows. Thats because during pulse on it is a voltage source. I'm not sure about that because i know for generators the impedance of the coils should be added quadratically too. I believe in transformers this impedance can be the small coupling leakage.. As they are voltage opposites, subjected to same pulse they simply subtract and their resistance sums in series... anyway theres still some inductance that could be accounted i would guess... The other impedances are the coils out of the pulsing core..