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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dynodon on March 25, 2011, 11:54:18 am
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I have a question to ask everyone.
What is the main purpose of the Gated Pulse Frequency Generator?
To help you figure it out,ask yourself,
Why is it manually adustable?
I figured this out over a year ago,and I have yet to see anyone mention this.If someone can come up with the answer I'm looking for,I will give you the schematic for that system.
Why am I not just giving it to you?
Becacause you all need to do the research yourself,thats the only way you'll learn.
I'll let you know when someone gets it right.
Don
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In my point of view it serves to select the number of pulses needed to achieve the water resonance, and tune to allow the water to reset after the repetitive pulse operation.
I believe that the gas is only generated when you gate the train of impulses cause when you do so the atoms will rearrange and get neutrally charged and get out as gas.
It has the frequency variable cause you may want to tune to get the maximum production. Than you can use it as a limit. It is also it is related to safety cause whenever the pressure exceed the value stabilized, the gate will turn off ...
Yet another thing is the electron extraction, witch would work also during gated operatio.
sebs
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It controls the number of the pulses produced by the resonant frequency generator sent to the primary. In addition, the gated pulse frequency generator may be operatively interconnected with a sensor that monitors the rate of gas production from the cell and controls the number of pulses from the resonant frequency generator sent to the cell in a gated frequency in a correspondence with the rate of gas production. So basically it controls the rate at which gas is produced and the formation of the pulse train.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Fig.6.png)
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The gating should have been done to give the water a change to get back into the wfc.
All the water is supposed to be gone into hho with the pulsetrain.
Water back in wfc, means the capacitor is restored.
This accoording to Meyer.
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Steve, in my opinion your have the right answer. The H2O is converted to HHO so the capacitor (dielectric properties are altered).
When this happens the voltage drops at the plates (less charge)
The gate operation lets the capacitor restore it's charge capacity.
What I have seen in my first test is that the voltage is max when GATE duty and frequency was adjusted for max potential development (step-charge).
The PULSE frequency is the frequency on the chokes (coils) and wfc when max. amp restriction is occurring.
The gate reduces also current going into the primary coil.
But hey, it's my guess. We must still experiment further on the real thing.
br,
Webmug
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Not sure if I've ever read anything on this in Stan's patents, but the gate also can be used to set the pulse train to allow the pulses to go to the cell as to charge the cell based on the RC Time Constant (TC) of the capacitance. For example a coil with the resistance of 10k ohms in series with a capacitor of 1uF, the TC = RC = 10k * 1uF = 10 msec for 1TC. 1TC will charge the capacitor to 63% and it takes 5 TC to fully charge the capacitor to X volts. So therefore the pulse train should be 50msec long, which is a frequency of 20hz @ 50% duty cycle. Just thought I would through this out there. Stan shows this is his patents but never really says this. Hints Step-Charging!!! You vary the duty cycle of the Gated Pulse to allow the number of resonant pulses to charge the capacitor or cell. In my example you would have to vary the duty cycle of gated pulse to around 80% to fully charge the capacitor.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/TC.JPG)
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Well it's good that I've got people looking at this.
So far there is one post that just touched on it,but didn't follow through with what they said.I don't think they realized what they said.I won't say who it was,just to keep this topic going and keep everyone thinking.
It is a very simple reason,and you will all be surprised that you didn't catch it sooner.It is mentioned in the papers of Stans in several places,but you just tend to read over it,because you think he's talking about something else.Everyone thinks this way.
Alot of what you have said is true on how the circuit works,but have not touched on the reason for the gating frequency.Some of your reason aren't right,it really is simple what it does.
So keep the ideas coming,this is good.
Don
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hmmm, a riddle...... ;)
The Eec is many times mentioned in comby with hho gas.
I think you try to say that the eec is also in place with the wfc?
Steve
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The gate pulse is super imposed over the resonant frequency to form the Pulse Train which will make it fully adjustable. The gate pulse can also be used to extract the electrons from the water during OFF time so that when theres no pulses being applied to the cell the EEC will be active and will pull the free electrons out of the water. Its also used to increase the charged voltage in the cell. The Pulse Train be comes widen while pulse off-time width becomes smaller. Conversely, opposite pulse shaping occurs when its calibrated in revers order.
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So Don are you referring to the Injector setup or Resonant Cavity setup? The reason I ask is cuz in the Injector setup, the gate can be used as a trigger for the injector gate to allow water into the injector.
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The answer I'm looking for is for the resonance cavity.The EEC is not the reason for the gating.Alot of what is said is true on what the gating contributes to,but still is not the primary reason for it.
Keep working on it,
Don
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A gate pulse controls the number of pulses produced by the resonant frequency generator sent to the primary coil during a period determined by the gate frequency of the second pulse generator. The gate can be connected to a pressure sensor that can be placed in the Resonant Cavity which also includes a gas outlet. The gas pressure sensor is operatively connected to the circuit to determine the rate of gas production with respect to ambient gas pressure in the water capacitor enclosure.
When the maximum gas pressure is reached in the resonant cavity, the sensor will send a signal to the gated pulse generator which will stop the pulses from being applied to the primary of the transformer until the pressure in the resonant cavity drops to a safe point.
Heres the logics for the circuit.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Fig.6_logics.PNG)
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Yes Tony all of that is a funtion from the gate signal,but it's still not the primary purpose of the gating.What your talking about uses the gating pulses,but it's not the main funtion.
What would you need a manual adjusted frequency for? We're not looking for how to make the frequency,we all know how to do that.We're looking for the reason we need gating.
Look at my other question about LC Resonance.
Don
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The only thing I can think of right now is that the gate pulse is used to promote the step-charging effect in the cell. it also can control the charge/discharge rate of the cell. There may also be a need to allow a definite relaxation time after each pulse, to increase the period in which the ionized charges may recombine and hydrogen and oxygen may be collected.
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The gas pedal Don!?? hehe
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The cell should work like a pump according to Stan, This means that for each pulse train there must be a relaxation period for new water to enter the resonant cavity. This is evident by the discharge time in the graphic.
You dont want it arcing without water in there.
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All of the bobbin cavities have to match in inductance with the primary coil’s inductance for the desired frequency the user is aiming for. This way makes sure that all coils hit resonance at the same time. Since the primary has the strongest magnetic field it leads the way for all other magnetic fields to add to its magnetic field strength.
So something like this, The gate frequency matches the resonance of the coils and the 2nd resonant frequency matches the resonance of the water. So the 2nd resonant frequency is inside the gated frequency.
Example. Say the coils resonate @ 500 Hz and the water resonates at 5khz. So you would superimpose a 500 hz frequency over the 5khz so that the coils and water hit resonance at the same time!!!
In this example the Sec = 1H, L1 = 1H, L2 = 1H, which gives Ltotal = 3H and the capacitor would equal 3.38nF. This would make the resonant frequency of the coils 500 Hz and the cell 5khz and they would hit resonance at the same time.
Gated Pulse = 500 Hz
PLL Freq. = 5kHz
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the biggest clue i think is in tony's picture, although as he added his own picture on the bottom he changed the shape of the step charging curve, and i think the original shape of the step charging curve provides the clue
tony's drawing shows a capacitor being charged in one pulse, with the time broken up by the time constants, and it is a smooth, continuous curve, however that is not what stan draws
stan draws each pulse of the step charge like a new capacitor is being charged on top of the previous pulse, what this means is that the dielectric properties change after each pulse, as if to add more capacitance, look at the second step charge pulse, the shape as if a empty capacitor is being charged, and not a continuation of the previous charing profile
this indicates that the water charges up, it's dielectric properties increase, as he points out so clearly in the switzerland video
so again, water is a dielectric. the dielectric properties come from the polar nature of the water molecule, which has lone pair electrons on one side, and hydrogen on the other, and if you research Debye, who did the original research on waters dielectric constant he indicates that the electric dipole moment of water is largely due to this lone pair electrons, and these electrons have a great ability to swing position farther from the oxygen, thus increasing the dipole moment when in the electric field,
as the dipole moment changes when the water is stressed, it acts to increase the capacity of the cell, which is why it looks like more capacitance is being added with each step charging pulse, but it adds up to a diminishing increase, until it is fully charged up, or where breakdown would occur
then comes the gate pulse which allows the water to relax, restructure, it allows the gas to join up and form O2 and H2, and recapture electrons to become neutralized, and float out, otherwise with the eec, the particles are kept monatomic and charged, and deflected around the cell even more during pulsing to increase the collision rates, as in the stacked cavity unit
but the water has to relax, recover, restructure, and the gas has to escape and be replenished with more water
also, in the resonant cavity patent, and the 661 patent, he says the pulse frequency can be matched to the wavelength of the movement of the particles between the plates, and this can be done with either the pulse frequency or the gate frequency
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Ok, I just read through some of Meyer's patents and papers and from what he says is that the Gated Pulse Frequency is to increase the applied Voltage Potential.
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ok so we use the LC Resonance to give us the High Voltages needed...So we then produce a gate pulse cuz we have the high voltages in the cell and when we gate we allow the voltage to do its work on the water?
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Tony,I wouldn't say that the gating increases the applied voltage.We already have the high voltage from the LC resonance.It doesn't need to be raised anymore.
Your second post is closer yet.
What do we need to do with the manually adjusted gate signal now that we have voltage?
We are no longer talking about resonance with the LC circuit,it no longer applies here,remember it was only for making the voltage.
What would the gate frequency now need to do with the voltage to get the water to pull apart?
Don
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yea me and Outlaw were just talking about this and we remember Stan saying this in one of his videos: "also when you hit resonance and subject it to the stimulation of the pulse voltage and then switch it off then the hydrogen will continue to be produced on the power off put stage.. a example being that once you hit resonance you could excite it for 5 seconds and your produning gas for 94 seconds.. you divide 5 into 94 and you are producing hydrogen gas 19 times more one the power off stage then on the power input stage.."
so the pulses are not longer needed so then we gate and let the voltage produce the gas!
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that resonant action stan is talking about for 94 seconds is when you match the pulses to the movement of the particles between the plates to match their motion, as he says right after that, if you leave it on, and leave it alone, hydrogen gas will increase at a geometrical progression until you have reached the maximum flow rate going into the resonant cavity, which has nothing to do with gating, unless the gating is being used to match the motion of the water, but it can't do both
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The gate will allow the HV to discharge into the cell
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Donald, you just hit on it!! Do you know what it is you just said? Forget about the 94 second statement,that doesn't matter.
when you match the pulses to the movement of the particles between the plates to match their motion,
What does that mean?
So what would you use the gating frequency for?
Don
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one more thing, it also allows u to control the amount of high voltages being made in the cell.
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well, i have a lot of things i'm thinking about and not sure exactly what you are going for, as the correct picture
i might venture that the high pulse frequency gets you electrical resonance of the VIC which turns into a huge impedance to current flow, then the gating is applying these current restricted voltage pulses to the cell at a frequency to match the water movement between the plates
i have been trying to figure out a way to calculate the frequency for the motion of the water, but so far no luck, but like stan says in 661, it is more readily determined empirically, so maybe this is why he has manual tuning on it
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So its used to match the number of Resonant pulses to the wavelength or movement of the water molecule by manually adjusting the gate?
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the gating is applying these current restricted voltage pulses to the cell at a frequency to match the water movement between the plates
Donald you just said the magic words right there.
This is how Stan does it.
First we find LC Resonance with the PLL to lock onto and hold.This creates the high voltage that Stan talks about that is needed.
Then we take the high voltage and use the gating frequency to tune into the WATERS MECHANICAL RESONANCE !!!
The Gating Frequency is used to tune into the water that is between the tubes and make it resonate !!!
We are turning on and off the high voltage with the gating frequency to match the waters resonance between the tubes.
This is the mechanical resonance of the water,not LC resonance !!
Then we can use the duty cycle on the gating to control the gas production.
Once the mechanical resonance is set,you shouldn't need to change the frequency of the gating signal.It won't change once found.
Can we all see it now?
It's that simple and Stan has that in his papers.
Don
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ahhh makes a lot more sense now, very interesting!!!
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so the PLL finds the LC resonance then u use the variable frequency generator to tune into the waters frequency and once you find this u should make gas and then u can control the amount of gas production by varying the duty cycle. sounds so simple
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture41-2.png)
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Tony,you now understand.
LC resonance makes the voltage
Gating tunes into the waters resonance between the tubes,you can't make a circuit to find that type of resonance,so you tune it manually.
Don
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oh yes, I understand it now. Makes a lot of sense why u need the Variable Pulse Generator and be able to adjust the duty cycle.
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Well - I am very glad to point out - that it is not as easy as what most people are now just thinking - whilst they read this lot of stuff.
It certainly will not be as simple as that.
There is actually - still quite a lot of things that have to be done - that are very subtle - and well - we will see - what I am saying - when folks tries it out.
Thanks ha ha ha.
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Well - I am very glad to point out - that it is not as easy as what most people are now just thinking - whilst they read this lot of stuff.
It certainly will not be as simple as that.
There is actually - still quite a lot of things that have to be done - that are very subtle - and well - we will see - what I am saying - when folks tries it out.
Thanks ha ha ha.
you are more then welcome to try yourself, Cardac....
With more active people, the sooner we will have results.
Steve
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the gating is applying these current restricted voltage pulses to the cell at a frequency to match the water movement between the plates
Donald you just said the magic words right there.
This is how Stan does it.
First we find LC Resonance with the PLL to lock onto and hold.This creates the high voltage that Stan talks about that is needed.
Then we take the high voltage and use the gating frequency to tune into the WATERS MECHANICAL RESONANCE !!!
The Gating Frequency is used to tune into the water that is between the tubes and make it resonate !!!
We are turning on and off the high voltage with the gating frequency to match the waters resonance between the tubes.
This is the mechanical resonance of the water,not LC resonance !!
Then we can use the duty cycle on the gating to control the gas production.
Once the mechanical resonance is set,you shouldn't need to change the frequency of the gating signal.It won't change once found.
Can we all see it now?
It's that simple and Stan has that in his papers.
Don
Thanks Don!
Have you seen any signs yet that indicates that mechanical resonance you are talking about?
Steve
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Cardac,
what I've just posted here,is the basic idea of what needs to happen.It still is a complex process to do.But there are alot of people just now getting the LC resonance working,and making high voltage across the water.
Steve,
I haven't had succes with finding the water resonance.Back when I was making higher voltage,I hadn't figured out the purpose of the gating until later.Now with my latest coil set up,I'm not making enough voltage.Stan states that at 1kv the water is just starting to elongate.So we know we will need more than 1kv.
Right now I'm not working with my setup.I'm working on my airplane project instead.
Don
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Don, do we win the schematic now?
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Hi Dynodon,
All you are saying is correct, but second my theory what actually happens is that the water actually elongate yes but by induction charging, The field zones attracts the respective atom and repel the electrovalent pair of electrons and vice versa therefore, theoretically when you elongate the water and than just turn off the fields, the water will try to de-elongate but doing so as the time share rate of the covalent electrons in the oxygen atom was initially affected (dipole) covalent switch off when the water "relax" the hydrogen have the ability of taking its electron to its orbit therefor it become neutrally charged and become gas.
The water will not actually have current passing thru it, therefore I don't believe anymore it has much to do with RC constant, is more like, the LC allow you to accumulate energy thereto to increase the electrical potential, not only this, it also let you to switch the fields in such a way as to restrict the current and let the fields to be applied in opposite phases.
I will show you now a picture that everyone overlooked and it clearly show what I ever said in the last months.
It clearly show that there is a charging choke 56 and the resonant coil that causes the electron inhibition by the characteristics of the technology. As I already describe in the thread resonance cracked. So i'm not going to repeat my self much.
In one coil you have the charging effect cause it forms with the diode and secondary a current source. (infinite impedance output) so if you restrict the current (so if you have high impedance) you will have high voltage cause the current source will aways provide the same current, and as voltage is the product of current and impedance, you get the picture.
The other coil as is resonating don't allow the current to flow cause the phase is opposed so the current cannot flow in both directions at the same time in the wire therefore the cell get net charged, or you can say you have a high voltage with restricted current, Is exactly the same thing if you think about.
The process as i already mentioned is called by stan Electrical polarization process.
But words are words and i'm working to try proving what i'm saying. i hope this weekend i can finish this.
Stan intentionally stopped to represent the electrical ground along the years. The only reason i see for this is that this is the secret.
Again the gate is very important, cause you can control the number of pulses (the voltage level)
The frequency of the gate is not actually of great importance it will depend on your vic and cell, and the volts per pulse you have.
The greater the voltage per pulse the faster can be the gate. Stan said if you want more gas increase the voltage, or increase the frequency. But to do so you need to satisfy to the amount amount of energy in the field.
The fact is that the greater the voltage is the greater will be the module of the acceleration of the ions and the greater will be the energy of the wave they are emitting, as to resonant cavity. made to match the wavelength of this wave coming out of the ions movements. The free ions also suffer the effect of the resonant action so they are there also colliding with the aligned molecules.
When you turn of the voltage they will move to get together again, doing this they collides again!!!
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Don,
Unless I'm really mistaken and way off, I believe the guys have nailed it. May we have the schematic now?
kb
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So don, now the question is what is the science to this manually adjusted frequency that is tuning into particle oscillation... stan refers to it as matching the wavelength of the gap..
We are speaking of particle oscillation, oscillating protons is considered sound waves correct?. So sound travels around 1497 meters a second (which is its speed of elastic response).. To tune to the speed that it takes for a sound wave to travel across that gap is not in our frequency range.. The only way it is in our frequency range is if we are seeking a acoustical resonance of the cylinder like i stated in the past... Which equates a cell like stans to be around 5-6 khz for acoustics
Have you figured out any of the math don?
This manual tuning of the particle oscillation remains constant once tuned regardless of water temp and contaminates?
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I'm not sure how we will be able to find this one frequency.My guess based on the range of the frequency generator it won't be very high.
I also looked at the frequency for the wave length of our tube gap,and it would be very high.Way higher than the generator could produce.But I don't think it has anything to do with the speed of sound between the tubes.We're not looking for the wave length for sound but more the action of the water to stretch and relax from the forces applied by voltage.So it's more of a rubber band effect of the water to get it into a resonance action.We're not trying to move the water from one tube to the other and back,but more towards each tube at the same time.
Stretch, release, wait for the water to come back and than catch it when it bounces back out and hit it again to stretch it some more.Timed pulses to syncronize with the waters action of stretching and relaxing.This action I feel would be at a much lower frequency,mabe due to the viscosity of the water.
Don
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The only way i can think of to tune to this particle resonance is to tune to the highest rate of production for a given steady input ...
so lets say you have your transformer running correctly and it is time to tune it..
You would need to set the transformer to a constant output level
You would also need to have a way to expel gasses from the resonant cavity while measuring the amount of gasses being expelled and also have a pressure meter to measure pressure level..
You will find your self in a situation like this..
At a set production rate you should be able to build up to lets say 25psi then crack the valve to release some pressure.. You want to regulate the gas being released to "match" the amount being produced..You can find the constant rate of production by getting the pressure and flow rate meters to read a constant (stabilize)..
When this is achieved Then you begin adjusting the vic gating.. If production rate rises then pressure will rise on the gauge as well as flow rate.. if production drops then pressure will drop..
What do you think don does it sound reasonable to try to seek a mechanical type resonance by measuring the production rate and tuning the gating to the point which shows the most gas output rate? This will only work iF the system can stabilize like i think it can..Where you can reach a constant state of production and relate the change in rate of production to the gate tuning..
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I don't think you understand this whole process.The gasses won't even start to flow until this resonance of the water is hit.The high voltage alone will not produce any gas until it is pulsed to match the resonance of the water in the cell.You won't even have gas flowing until resonance.
Don
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ok gotcha..
I understand the process for the most part don.. I just don't know the allowed variance to its ability to function.. Like does it work if the gating is within 200 hz of the correct frequency.. From what your saying its gotta be dead on..
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As we can select the number of pulses going into the water with 100% precision, in my mind this can be only related as i said before to the voltage level you allow it to go, if you allow 1 two or 2500 pulses depends on the Vic design. If you notice also the Steam resonator uses determined number of pulses per switch if i can call it like that.
So if you let the pulses continue to go without gating it, 1 you create a dangerous condition, in witch 1° it can explode, 2° cause will certainly burn the VIC if not properly insulated.
I have just finished my 6.1 vic the inductances are not that big, for example in air the resonant charging chokes have tx5 1,7 ad 2,2 respectively, with the core the tx4 become smaller than tx5 so just by inserting the laminations i can equal the inductance of the coils. The secondary is 5mh, and now i know the coupling is much much better, so now i can be more free of trouble with the transistors blowing. The primary has 1,4mh..
If you think about the voltage transformation from primary to secondary is irrelevant, cause at resonance you must only think about the secondary to chokes voltage per turn.
cause for example the secondary is = to the charging choke, and the primary is applying or imposing 2 amps in the chokes, lets assume the choke in resonance would have 600ohms reactance therefore it would have 1200 volts across it so the secondary will also have 1200 volts in it and the charging choke too, so this will make a almost theoretic perfect current source!!! Nice isn't
By water resonance meyer mean that it behave like benzene resonance, were the electrons are free to exchange between the atoms. The thing is that you need to achieve this point but prevent the current from leaking thru the water, arc, so the gate controls this too for sure.
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my 6-1 VIC has some pretty high inductance readings. I got one of the cores and bobbins from John and I wrapped the secondary and chokes with 36ga. copper wire. With them on the core Im reading the following: Secondary = 16H, L1 = 8.88H, L2 = 8.88H. For the Primary I used 22ga. copper wire and it measures 10.7mH. The Secondary, L1, L2 all has 150 wraps * 14 = 2100 each and the Primary has around 75 wraps. I then paralleled two 2.2k resistors and then put them in series to limit the current through the Primary. Ive hit resonance at multiple frequencies but around got a slightly higher voltage between 6khz-7khz. The voltage was peaking out well over 1kv. I was using my 8XA circuit to do this with a voltage input of between 10v-20v.
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I don't think you understand this whole process.The gasses won't even start to flow until this resonance of the water is hit.The high voltage alone will not produce any gas until it is pulsed to match the resonance of the water in the cell.You won't even have gas flowing until resonance.
Don
Have you ever seen a waveform similar to Steve Meyers with yours or Stans set up? Matching the stretching with the voltage is neat, kinda like capture the stretch and then pump it apart :)With all the research ive done anything that deals with pumping or resonating requires an oscillating motion.Steve Meyers says that wat most ppl dont get is that wat you see across ur coils to the cell is wat the cell actually sees... something to that effect.Its very interesting to me to look at Steve Meyers waveform and see an entrainning pulse( the rectified half wave) and then see an increasing unipolar oscillating pulse( the resonance pulse) over time.Its kinda like the test point is detecting the resonance and feeding off it somehow.This pumping of the stretch is interesting,sorta like the kid in a swing only instead of pushing the kid over the top we push the strech apart, but wat is it contained within the strech H --- OH ? Is it an electron or 2 electrons or something else? More than likely tho wat ever it is within that motion will slow down with an entrainning voltage field to a subharmonic level .If you do find the frequency mathmatically of this motion and apply it and nothing happens .... I remember Stan saying " when you tune in with voltage" Ther surely should be a way to detect the required paremetrs other than volume of gas ???
I wish you could show us a picture of Stan showing his waveform.
im not sure yet how the high frequencies are being added from the scope shots of the 8xa circuit... i dont have one yet to play with but it kinda looks like ther not on at the rite time... i cant wait to get to play with it :)
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So Don are you referring to the Injector setup or Resonant Cavity setup? The reason I ask is cuz in the Injector setup, the gate can be used as a trigger for the injector gate to allow water into the injector.
Isnt the injector water solenoid controlled by the led/photodiode in the distributor to time the injection with the piston cycle?
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outlawstc,I don't think that it is a very small spot to hit,because the gate adjusting pots are only 3/4 turn.So they aren't very precise.Just my thought.
Don