A green and clean environment is a human right!
Electrolysis => Electrolysis => Other => Topic started by: Browngass on January 28, 2008, 00:57:36 am
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ok here goes
i saw Stan Mayer in one video showing the flame directly from his WFC, then i noticed the PSI/KG meeter on his tank, this mean Stan had his WFC under preashure
my point is: U can hawe one WFC under a preashurised switch, this cell would be for idling speed on the engine, then u can hawe another WFC with the same setup for acceleration using a variabel needlevalve for how mush RPM/HP u need
so my question is: how much can u preashurise HHO gas 5kg? 100kg? what is the dangerlimit?
Browngass
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i have had it under 60 psi, i normaly run at around 40 psi, i play with about 13 to 20 psi.
just because i do it doesn't mean its safe. but i have not ever seen it blow up. i wouldn't ever go over 20 psi when testing on my given volume.
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great news
if i could hawe it working around 30 to 60 PSI (1 - 2kg) or more i can hawe more to work with on the engine, il look into how to best break down the water before entering the combustion chamber, it might involve a mini steamer of some sort or high preashure fracturing before entry, this way i can mix it down, time will tell ;D
Browngass
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whatever you do i am not responsible, if you ask me i say don't it under pressure unless you're sure you know what you're doing, it can be dangerous, ALWAYS keep a blanket or towel around it just incase it was to blow, also put it behind a board or something. one small peice of plastic or whatever could cause you to loose both your eyes.
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bought backflash arestor for hydrogen to day along with KG/PSI meeter, needlevalves, flowmeeter for hydrogen, preashureswitch and more tubings
lets hope i live to see another day ;D
il make pick`s and video when i feel i hawe more interesting development
Browngass
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Where did you get the flash back arestor from, do you hav a link to the dealer?
J@H
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mmh il let u know AGA gass was founding latest equipment but they would rather not i say too much abt that, i can tell u than any welding equipment dealer hawe most of the stuff u need for handeling the HHO
bare in mind that u need to ref. the gas as Hydrogen for most of the equipment u need since there is no industrial standard as of yet for the HHO
i work in a lab for the oil industry on a daily basis, im building the research rigs and work the electro part hence i hawe some insight in how flow of gasses and liquids work, i get some sponsoring from outside actors like AGA, but before i hawe REAL result i wont be sticking my neck out, security where i work is as tight as a *** hole
when i hawe facts writen in stone il be able to ask for more founding since most ppl can only belive what they see
my work as of now is mostly on the conversion of a regular ICE to HHO driven since i see that as the fastest way to reach out to the ppl, and the fact that u guys know way more abt HHO cells than i do
il post some links when i get home from work to morrow
Mr Browngass
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in 1993 my welding shop teacher told me a story how a buddy of his was killed filling a 100 lb tank with browns gas before it even got full... you mite store hydroxlys but i wuldnt be storing hydroxy or HHO for any reason.not in deadly quanites anyhow.... and whoo knows wats deadly and wat aint? who wants to be that guinnie pig?? not me.
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storage is not ok, however my setup will probably require a small amount of storage around 13 to 20 psi. it's no ok to store hydrogen in any form, the smallest piece of dabre from a shattered tank can kill you depending on where it hits you, the small explosion is like flying container part bullets.
i will tell you something very odd, i had a cell explode 6 feet away from my computer, the little snap cover you pop out to add a extra cdrw to, well that plastic cover "somehow blowed out of the computer."
if you are going to store hydrogen you should take the proper saftey steps.
Cover your cell with a blanket.
put a board between you and the cell.
if anyone other than you is around at all, do not test your wfc, it is your fault if you put someones i out and you should be the one to have to pay for it!
if compressed hydrogen is what we have to have, then safety measures can be took to make it safe on low pressure, if its a high pressure such as 5000psi, then it can be safe to, honda did it!
dont ever think it might not blow up, when you think this you loose an eye or life!!!!! SAFE TESTING EVERYONE.
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Safe high pressure tanks for Hydrogen:
http://lincolncomposites.com/ (http://lincolncomposites.com/)
http://www.scicomposites.com/ (http://www.scicomposites.com/)
http://dynetek.com/ (http://dynetek.com/)
The carbon fiber ones are unique becuase if they explode they stay in one peice...no shrapnel
-Kevin
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u might blow ur self up looking in a fuel tank with a lighter too :o
my question is: how much can u store in a seperate tank, what reactions do the gas hawe under 1000 PSI, if i cant store the HHO well then i need to seperate the two gases and recombine then at combustion
the thing is as of to day we don`t hawe enough production in our cells for more than idling speed, and another thing when u park the car u can "charge" it like a battery and hawe like 1000 - 3000 PSI already when u get in the car, as u drive the car it produces HHO too, making u able to take long trips without hawing to refill
im not taking no for a answer so i got a tank from a truck to day, im going to provoke a explotion this weekend, don`t worry il be on the other side of the concreete wall
il start slow and build up to about 200 PSI since that is the max my hoses can take, and yes i hawe two flashback arestors
i hawe a "shaker" that il use too to stress the tank as much as i can, if anyone hawe hard fact`s about HHO under preashure id realy like to hear about it
ooh and i was founded with solenoids to day, they r used but who cares ;D
Mr Browngass
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forgot to post the link ;D
http://no.rs-online.com/web/ (http://no.rs-online.com/web/)
norwegian version but its a international coorp.
they hawe most of ur needs to handle the gas and then some
Mr Browngass
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Never, ever store browns gas HHO in any quantity!!! If it could be done safely we would be doing it now.
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Hi all,
As one of the 2 admins here, I want and must warn you all from the bottum of my hart.
No, its not a legal thing.
Its just from a warm hart.
I personally had a bad experience with Hydrogen. Hydrocars had some weeks ago also a bad experience.
If you never tried to ignite hydrogen, please do so.
Take a little ballon, fill it just a little bit with H.
Put it on the ground and use a stick of 1 mtr long with a burning piece of something.
Blow the ballon to heaven and NEVER EVER forget the bang you hear....OK?
Can you imaging what a bucket full of this stuf WILL do to your health?
We are all children how wanna play.....but you dont play with a handgranate, do we?
I still see the remains of my first WFC on my shelf.
I still feel the pain at my ear,and I still see the blood coming of it too.
I was totally dissy....almost in shock.....walking to the door of my garage
I needed 15 minutes to recover of the explosion.
So LEARN of others!
DONT be stupid.
We are all amateurs and we dont have prof stuff.
PLAY SAFE, please.
Br
Steve
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some strange bug with explorer so i hope im not posting twice
as i mentioned earlyer, u can devide the two gases and recombine them at combustion, my point is we need to hawe a buffer of some sort, im not eaven in the same room as my WFC when i preshure test, i hawe a tube/hose through a concreete wall and a flashback arestor on my side along with a needle valve and a smal needle tip where i ignite
how did ur WFC explode Stevie? just bc of preshure or bc u tried to ignite the gas with no flashback arestor?
i talked to some of the chemist`s on the lab to day and they told me that preshure alone wont explode the gas, its always a outside factor, like mix with another fluid, ignition and that sort
has any of u had the WFC explode just bc of preshure?
Mr Browngass
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Hi Mr. Brownsgass,
The explosion of my wfc was not done by pressure.
I had a pressure release valve of 3 Bar on my WFC.
The reason of my explosion was backfiring of my testengine.
To be honest, I was not carefull enough and I didnt had enough knowledge.
The engine pulled to much vacuum. More vacuum then my WFC could deliver pressure.
Normally that should not be a problem.
But, we found out that my testengine is sparking twice a cycle.
The second spark is given for extra burning gasses on the outlet stroke.
In this position, the intakevalve and outletvalve are BOTH open for a second.
When you get a spark with the intakevalve open, you absolutely get an explosion in your WFC.
I had a special valve between my WFC and the engine. But it didnt matter.
I ll gues I should have used 1 or 2 bubblers in between.
Br
Steve
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its always a outside factor, i wont hawe my engine pulling the HHO out, that would be way to hard to controll and since i like to hawe control with the flow, im going to use the electronic flow valves and solenoids i just got
overpressure is realy important and u dont whant ur car suckin the WFC, u need to feed it as much as u can produce without loosing pressure
and here my HHO storage comes in the picture, there is no WFC atm that can feed a engine and hawe enough for idling the engine, atleast until we can solve how we add the steam/mist of water with the HHO
Mr Browngass
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w00t!
my acryl/plexi plate arived to day, so i can finaly put aside the tube`s and start working on my new tank
210x150x2 cm plate, so i hawe some serious cuting to do this weekend
i should hawe enough to make a few test tank`s
il be testing the 61 plate and 101 plate to a further stage, im not shure il make the plates 6x6 like Bob`s tho, but more like 4x8 to get the "chimney" effect i like with pipe`s
(btw my tube cell cracked at 65 PSI under the preshure test, so much for that cell) ::)
Mr Browngass
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Hi,
if you need any advise on platecells, i suggest you contact Kumaran.
I know that he is an expert on that field.
br
steve
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i came in contact with a company that lasercut SS steel for the lab im working in, they had a great number of sizes of plates and tubes
and with simple CAD drawings he gawe me a reasonable price`s on quite a few solutions
so this weekend il test out a few plate design`s before i decide the next step
Question1: is it only me or does HHO production rise sky high when u close up sides and bottom of the cell?
Question2: with thiner SS plates it seem to me like production i better? True/False?
Mr Browngass
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i havent really had much dealing with plates, not sure,, i would like to know that as well...
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Hi Brownsgas,
With regards to question 1, yes, the production does go up much more when sealing the sides and bottom of the cell, simply because when you do that, you are forcing the electrons to pass THROUGH the plates instead of around it. If you think about, (and I can't remember what law it is, but there is something the guys with thick glasses thought up for this), electricity will always take the shortest route to ground, which in effect means that if you have a bunch of plates in an electrolyte bath with the sides and bottom open, most of the electricity will simply flow from the edges o the plates to the negative side, effectively bypassing most of the plate area because it flows around it. However, when you seal up the sides and bottom of the cell, the electrons have no other route to ground except to travel through each and every single plate, thus forcing all the electricity through the plate area, which , in turn, produces a lot more gas. This was first patented in 1967 by WA Rhodes (patent attached), where he describes the same thing.
To answer question 2, the bottom line is true that you would get better production using thinner SS. There have been a bit of discussion going on as to exactly why this is, some say it's because the electrons travel through the thinner plates more quickly, others say it's because the electrons have much easier way of getting through the plates and don't have to overcome a lot of internal resistance found in each plate, etc. What I can tell you though from my own experimenting is that I have built a 101 plate cell with SS shimstock (0.12mm thickness), and while it works GREAT, the trade off is that you struggle to get your plate spacing right, and also because the SS is so thin, working with it (cross hatching, etc) is very difficult. They often end up warping the edges or bending when you slide them into the cell, which causes inconsistencies with the rest of the plates, reducing the overall efficiency of the cell. But the production is really good once you figure out how to work with the plates properly and how to straighten them out after bending slightly ;)
I have also built a cell with 0.5mm SS plates, which hold up a lot better in terms of ruggedness and spacing, but I have also found that the production is slightly less than the shimstock cell. In my honest opinion though, the difference between 0.5mm and 0.12mm plates is about 5% (with the 0.12mm being the better production), so at the end of the day, thinner plates is not really going to make that big of a difference, especially not when you are running the cell in a resonance drive fashion.
Taking all of this back to what Bob Boyce thinks of this, he likes to use 16 gauge (1.2mm if I am not mistaken) or 18 gauge (1mm) plates, simply because of the high level of stability they provide and the fact that you can work with them in a very high tolerance and still maintain plate integrity.
Over and out
Johan
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Hi Watky,
Thank you for your info. Its very good.
I do have a question about sealing the bottom and sides. I have seen that before and the question for me is how you get a flow in such a device. How do you refill?
do you have any suggestion on that?
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thx for the info Watkykjy
my logic was rite then, i agree the 0,5 and less plates are a pain to allign perfectly in a box cell, that is why im going to get my next set of plates laser cutted, the SS plates is already brushed from factory so i dont hawe to handle the plates much
the only handeling i need is when im "casting sides and bottom" (basicly a 1.3mm nylonwire glued on the plates first and then liquid plastic is used to make a cast that hold`s the plates)
since i feel Hyrdocars and other`s here hawe full controll on the electronic`s i think its better to use my time and energy on the cell and out, im just using brute force now until we hawe stone cold facts on the electronic side
ive been using a 200A altenator from a car, and eaven tested a welding trafo 48V 300A :o
this brute force help me to hawe enough gas to play with engines and fuel mixes (picked apart a watercondenser for houshold`s wich had a ultrasound generator to make humidity, the wife got mad for pickin it apart tho ::) )
il take any ideas on how to mix the HHO with water before combustion guys !!!
Mr Browngass
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Hi Stevie1001,
I would agree that flow is a little less in a sealed off cell than you would have in a tube setup or a setup with little pieces at the bottom open, but then again, the reaction you get with a completely sealed cell is so much better, that the gas is flung off the plates at such a fast rate that the flow is not that much important.
The real question to ask as you so cleverly picked up is the problem of filling the cell ;)
I have heard of many people completely abandoning the series cell because of this problem, and while there are many ways to tackle this problem, all of them involve some kind of hard labor or smart electronics (or both, lol).
The first thing you can do is to tilt the entire cell sideways about 45 degrees, and then fill the water over the edges of all the cells. When the cell is tilted back again, the water will automatically equalize, and all cells will be filled to the same level. This is also the method described in Rhode's patent.
Next you can do what Bob Boyce recommends. He says that if you cut the slots holding the plates deep enough, and then insert the plates, with a VERY small gap (0.01mm or less), there will be a little room for the water to travel between every plate, thus allowing you to pump new water into only one or two cells, and the extra water will then equalize automatically by flowing around the plates through the grooves in the plexiglass. The principle behind this is that the electrons will then still travel through the plates rather that around the edges, because you will effectively have the tolerance so high and the gap between the plexiglass and the plates so small that the electricity would consider that route the long route, and find less resistance by going through every plate.
You can also do it a bit more complicated if that's your thing. This method involves having a sliding piece of acrylic at the bottom of the cell. Then you drill a hole (or more) through each of the 100 cells. Then, during normal operation, this sliding piece of acrylic (either on the side of the cell or on the bottom) will be kept in an off center alignment to the rest of the holes, essentially preventing the electrons from taking a shorter path. When it's time to fill the cell, then you move the slider back, lining up the holes, allowing the water from the reservoir to flow in and equalize to the level of the water in the reservoir. once this has happened, you can then move the slider off center again to seal everything off again.
Lastly you can also have a very complex filling system, whereby you monitor each cell's level individually, and have a syringe type setup for every cell, which will fill up only that cell when filling is required. I don't recommend this way, however, as the electronics and mechanical setup of this would be way too complicated and costly to make it a viable solution.
Apart from the last possibility mentioned here, all of them have one thing in common: For a limited period of time, the possibility for the electrons to just jump off the edge of the plates to take the shortest route to ground still exists, and with that in mind, it's probably wort it to follow the KISS method and keep it as simpleas possible. I have experimented with the slider thing, as well as filing the cells individually, and more recently, allowing the water to leak around the cells over a period of time and to equalize the cell like that, but I have to honestly say that the easiest (and probably quickest) way of doing it is to just turn the cell on it's side 45 degrees, pumping the new water in, and turning it back, eliminating the current from flowing around the edges for too long.
Brownsgas, I just got a new 7500watt generator with electric start, and will be modifying the engine for hydroxy gas soon, so any help you can offer on that would be greatly appreciated! My previous hydroxy engine was a 157cc robin edge cutter motor, which, fortunately and for some reason did not produce the second wasted spark, so I never had any issues with it in terms of backfire, aside form the fact that I couldn't adjust the timing on it much, and it was sputtering a bit.
Thanks!
Johan
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Johan,
Do i understand you correctly that you also keep the waterlevel lower then the top edge of your plates?
br
steve
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Hi Steve,
100% correct yes. In a resonance drive system, the reaction is so violent that the water level is often only about half the height of the plate, in order to keep it from foaming over and allowing the electricity a shorter path to ground. When using brute force, I normally have it around 75% the height of the plates, which makes the tilting method easy to do, because you will never overfill the plates using that method..
Laters
Johan
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For those of you that are thinking of using a Laser to cut your SS plates…think twice! I was talking to Bob the other day and he had 2 sets of plates badly warped from the cutting process. He is still not sure that they are salvageable. I told him that I recommend water jet (flow jet) cutting. It is done cold and does not warp the plates. It is computer controlled and very clean cutting. I have used it for cutting 1 ½ inch SS plate and paper thin stuff. I highly recommend this process…
I generally though just use a sharp mettle shear to cut my thinner plates…and then file the edges.
Just my 2 bits.
Karl
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uuuh ok
ur wrong and so is Bob, i was actualy at the factory when they lasercuted my plates and i could hold the plates in my hand as they came out of the cuter
the plates then was transported to a "brusher" where my plates was brushed/sanded before they whent to the final laminating station
plates was 0,8 mm and bending/warping as u say was less than 0.025mm on a suface 100 x 300 mm
these numbers is before the casting, and if the casting thread is 1,4mm im confident its about that number that il end up with
P.S these guys r the same factory the lab im working in r using and they hawe laser, water and stampers wich they use to cut materials
THEY told me the laser cuting was the best way
i trust the ppl who has been working with SS the last 40 yrs hawe the last words, atleast for me
ooh well i hawe my 164 plates cuted, lets see if im right r not
Mr Browngass
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I was only repeating what Bob Boyce told me about the laser cutting. I told him about my experience with using water jet. I known that the military use water jet to cut there SS as I had a hard time getting my work in line, as hear the water jet people are booked by the military most of the time. I really like the quality of the cuts that I have seen. I have not seen any SS cut by laser so I can only comment on what I was told. If the laser is working well for you, than I am happy for you. I am sure that both processes can monkey up your material if they don’t operate the machinery properly.
Karl
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if Bob was using thicker materials then yes u might get problems when the laser is too weak
im using 0,8 mm plates and the laser cut that like paper
the problem with water cuting is the work u hawe to do after the cuting, the machining of the plates after mean`s more handeling of the plates
im shure water jet do the same work in the end ;)
Mr Browngass
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i found a few links that could help us create better cells, some of these machines r in a big scale and scaling them down to fit a car who then can be "charged" (make preshurised Hydrogen in a carbon tank) and when u drive the car u add the WFC tech to get better driving range
Proton-exchange membrane electrolysers hawe between 95.3% and 90.4% energy efficiency.
anyway think about it?
http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf (http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf)
http://www4.hydro.com/electrolysers/en/products/range/inergon_pem_electrolyser/index.html (http://www4.hydro.com/electrolysers/en/products/range/inergon_pem_electrolyser/index.html)
this one i realy like to see in a smaller scale
http://www.genhypem.u-psud.fr/publis/Grigoriev_108.pdf (http://www.genhypem.u-psud.fr/publis/Grigoriev_108.pdf)
Mr Browngass
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w00t!
its eaven shopable ;D
i hope its not the price of gold
http://www.solvaysolexis.com/static//wma/pdf/8/3/5/5/Hyflon%20Ion%20E87%20Membranes%20Data%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.solvaysolexis.com/static//wma/pdf/8/3/5/5/Hyflon%20Ion%20E87%20Membranes%20Data%20Sheet.pdf)
il ask around for how they apply it on the plates
its a super way to seperate the two gases
Mr Browngass
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The company I work for already sources some materials from this company so I will try to get a price.
Shodan
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thx alot Shodan
it would be great to investigate usage of this material, not only on paper but in a cell
Mr Browngass
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interesting statement, one could magnetise the entire cell, im not shure how hydrogen and oxygen work in a 30kg eviroment tho
the thing that amased me most was the 95.3% to 90.4% energy efficiency that the PEM cells had, just made me think of a union of the cells
ive had a chat with a few guys at Hydro research in Norway, and they gave me realy insightfull info
i was right about the HHO storage btw
they hawe stored it in a cell at 30kg before seperation, they told me it could eaven be under more preshure but that its more risky to fill lines with the gas since its so explosive
annyway il keep working til i find a solution that i can stand for
Mr Browngass
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I found this at Panaceauniversity, maybe it is a way of separating.....
(http://C:\Download\H2 separator)
(If the picture does not shoe se: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Book.pdf page 360)
J@H
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Hah!!
that was EXACTLY what i was thinking, stil Bob is working under relative low preshure and id hawe to read up on how this would work under more preshure
storage is key to hawe a real working car, in the cell, in a tank or eaven better, tank and a cell
for those of u who like to envolve ur self more in the way im heading u can shop educational stuff on this link
http://fuelcellhub.com/shop/cart.php?target=category&category_id=248 (http://fuelcellhub.com/shop/cart.php?target=category&category_id=248)
ive bought the basic PEM plates to investigate em more before i buy a larger scale sheet, its realy great info in this sites
(the reason im not working with electric fuel cells is bc it takes too long to hawe this in a larger scale and that a ICE runing on Hydrogen actualy clean the air while its runing ;D)
il hawe material to start posting in a week or two
just now im making some 3D CAD to ease the purchase of more sophisticated SS plates, this make it more cheap for me to buy plates
thx alot for nice links and info guys, keep ur eyes wide open for thinking outside of the box
"someone found out 2000 times how not to make a lightbulb"
Mr Browngass
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heh!
one link didnt show up, basicly how u can get the sheet as u like it
http://fuelcellhub.com/shop/cart.php?page=membrane_electrolyte_assembly (http://fuelcellhub.com/shop/cart.php?page=membrane_electrolyte_assembly)
Mr Browngass
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watkykjy i do belive i know why u dont hawe the second spark on ur engine if its a new one, simply bc it has a electronic ignition
i found out the same from a 2500W generator i tested on, just remove the carburator entirely, stick a smal SS line in there, retard ur ignition and voila u hawe a HHO engine ;D
if ur great with ignition u can realy get lots from the HHO gas, and if u hawe a old engine with two sparks its easy to swap the ignition to a electronic one, mountains of dealers like MSD, Gready and so on
i hawe a question too, do u use clean water or electrolyte watkykjy?
i use only clean destilled water in my latest cells and there is no foaming in my cells after a few runs, the corotion on the plates is minimal too
in May il hawe the entire month just for this research and im now hamstering equipment i might need ::)
take a look on PEM cells and think of a union of our work to this
Mr Browngass