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Stanley Meyer => General Stan Meyer topics => Topic started by: hydrogenmask on November 26, 2010, 15:12:54 pm
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To help you visualize better what stan was using in his multi VICsetup. This is a model with the corresponding dimensions as Dynodon showed when he was there:
“The core was two flat U cores about an 1/8 inch thick and about 1/2 wide. Each leg was @ 2 1/2 inches long, and @ 2 3/4 inches total width. They came together to make a closed core. They looked just like his drawings to the letter. They were a ferrite type material.
The WFC VIC coil is on a two piece U core. The cores were of a powdered metal like ferrite. It had five separate coils on it. Primary, secondary, two separate chokes,(not bifilar) and a pick up.
The chokes for the wfc vic coils were two separate coils of the same size. They looked just like the secondary; I would say they were the same size in shape and wire size.
Every coil was wound with the same size wire. 29-30 gauge.”
Wow that was a very thin and flat U core.
Do you think Stan custom built such cores? Dynodon said that it was a ferrite type material.
We need to know the approximate values for Inductance and determine self resonance.
This is to take also into consideration that this VIC is driving only a small 3inch 0.75dia tube cell.(very small capacitor)
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Nicely done!
Steve
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Nice job with the drawings,looks just like them.The bobbins themselve's were two halves machined out of delrin.The two halfs come together to form the three section bobbin.The bobbin halves when put together have the groove down the center for the core to slide in.Both sets of bobbins on each leg of the U cores were the same size.You could wind the two chokes or a primary, secondary and feedback.The small section in the middle isn't used with the chokes.
I have never been able to find that type of U core anywhwere.They may have been custom made.
Don
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Don,
Do you remember if the core was light shiny grey(like tv flybacks) or dark color ferrite ?
How can we build such core ? Anyone know the process to fabricate a core let say with a usable frequency of 10khz-50khz?
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You could use resin and iron powder, or iron oxide...
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You could use resin and iron powder, or iron oxide...
Looks like laminated magnetic cores, made of thin insulated iron sheets stacked on each other.
br,
webmug
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The cores were a satin darker gray color,not as black as ferrite.Your frequencies of 10k to 50k is too high.Stan worked in the 10khz range.
Don
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Don would you tell us if you found other capacitors inside the vic or anywhere? Could you make a nice list and maybe a circuit diagram of what you exactly saw there? I think that stan could have used inter tube capacitance being the delrin the dielectric, i noticed also the vic had delrin bobbins.
I think i read everything you posted about it however i think that maybe you could help us with more detailed info if you have.
Anything could help.
Wish i could just take a look inside those black boxes...
Br
Fabio
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Like I said a while back,the one thing that I noticed when I got to see Stans work was that everything he said was just how it looked.Meaning I did not see anything there that was not in his writings.I did not see anything there that he did not talk about.If he didn't talk about it,it wasn't there.
The VIC coils were just as he described them.The resonant cell was just as he said.There was no other capacitors in the VIC circuit.The coil pack seen in my videos hooked directly to the cell.Alot of people are making this thing way too complicated.Remember Stans KISS method?
People seem to be going way overboard on their thinking here.Their making it more complicated than it is.I see the process working just as he says it does.He descibes the process very well.Others seem to think that it's alot more complicated than it is.Alot of people seem to be over complicating things.More people need to be testing more, than thinking about how it might work.Alot of talking,and not much testing.
I have made my coils just as Stan says,and I have been able to make high voltage on the water.Just take a look at my pic below.So just follow Stans words and start testing.You will learn alot.
Don
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HV on the water and no bubbles is exactly what we want, only thing which is needed is tuning the HV pulses so the water will resonate mechanically.
Did you use SS-wire, Don?
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Alan,yes the next step now is to tune into the water resonance.I'm working on a new pwm that will help with that part.
I use only copper magnet wire.Stainless isn't needed for this VIC coils.This coil set when in resonance only pulls 20 milliamps.And the resonance is @ 10khz
Don
In order to find this voltage,you'll need an oscilloscope.If you don't have one,you can still find it with a flouresent bulb like my pic shows.You can hook one end of the tube up to one side of the cell and adjust frequency untill you get the light as bright as it will go,and your at resonance.
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Dynodon, What do you think of making a vic like that with electrical steel core, like the stuff I bought off of you?
Any comments on the function of the circuit that is in between the coils and around the sides?
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Donald,the laminate material could be used,but it may not work as good as ferrite type.It might saturate at the higher frequencies the cell needs to resonate at.You could try it,it can't hurt.
As for the the coil pack,there isn't any circuits on that card.There's a 5 volt regulator,and a 2n3055 transistor for the voltage amplitude control circuit.There was a resistor in line with the primary,thats not in Stans original schematics.The blocking diode is there too,the one Stan said was used.Thats all there is on that card.
Don
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Was the primary also 29-30 guage?
Thanks DynoDon, that is the picture I have been looking for.
My machinist tells me he finished the test cell.
I have been testing out a coil pack with laminate steel with small results.
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Hi Don
First of all thank you for the detailed picture of the VIC.
There I can see an LM340 5v regulator and a 2N3055 power transistor (marked in red in my pic A22 and Q4)
I cannot locate the diode. Is it hidden underneath the 2N3055 or is that big black rectangle outside and under the box WK S22A2T ?
Now correct me if I`m wrong:
1) I assume that the serial pc connector is going to the pll circuit which may be another box located in front of this one.
2) I assume that the 4 bolt connections on top are: (marked in orange in my pic)
· Positive supply(+12v)
· Negative ground
· 2 output connections to cell
3) I can see some other transistors / mosfets / resistors in the box which may be for Q5, Q6, Q7, Q8, Q9
4) I assume that the parts in the VIC box are the ones located inside the cryan perimeter. Signal connections from this box to the externals circuitry is going through the 'Serial PC connector' and some I marked them as green dots.
Please correct me If I’m wrong.
HM
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I'm curious about the wire gage of the primary too, when i made my version of this coil i had to change the primary and i'm not really sure what the target is, i think it may be a good project for me to try this again, after exams...
any measurements of inductance on these coils?
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Here is my manual pulsing circuit. It uses a 4047 in the Astable Free running mode for the gating pulse. This is fed to another 4047 set up in a complement gating mode. It delivers the Meyer’s style unipolar gated pulse from about 500hz to 11,000hz.
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A bipolar transistor, is very fast, and one of the most important characteristics is that it is a current controlled device so if well designed is easy to control the power going into it. I never succeed i actually exploded some 2 years ago, but i still have some here and will learn more and try it more. Now i have more background. The series resistor, is something i once tried but i thought was only there consuming power. Don, do you have any idea on what resistance? My guess is around or less than 1ohm... Any idea on the inductance and resistance of the coils? Thanks for that Picture. Is the first time i see it.
I found that the smaller the diameter of the wire the faster the electrons need to travel into it. This changes a lot the induction. In the sense that if you make you coil very thick even if it don't heats up you wont induce very high speed electrons magnetism, SS wire? Greatest resistance the faster they will need to go. Any thoughts on this?
I'm thinking if my exam for physics university failed (hope not) into making electrical engineering university focused into electronics. There is a great course here 5 years, a bit expensive but seems worth. What you think guys, should i? Anyone here is an EE?
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HM,there was two TIP120 transisters under the 2n3055.One of the TIP120 was the primary coil driver and the other was part of the amplitude control.The blocking diode is between the blue and red coils on the right side.That would be the secondary and choke.The blue box on the bottom is a female connector.A PLL board plugged into that socket.The serial connector would be for the voltage amplitude hook up.
The four studs are the power in and pulses out to primary coil.Q5-Q9 are not on this coil pack,they would be on their own board.
All coils were the same size 29-30.Iv'e stated that before.I used that for my primary and 35 for secondary and chokes.It allows me to have more turns on them with the same size bobbins.I dont know the resistance or inductance of these coils.Can't help you there.The resistors were all tied together as one.They seemed to be across the feedback winding.
Remember that these coils were hand wound,and not at all precision.I don't think that their sizes make much difference.It only makes more or less voltage,and changes the resonance frequency
Don.
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Thanks DynoDon, just wanted to make sure on the wire size. Mine is really a pain to disassemble and rewind.
In his Figure 5 diagram he had a diode across the primary coil. I have done this for relays to suppress spikes, but when I add one to my driver circuit it raises the amps and everything heats up (and yes I checked the polarity). Did you see any such animal on the coil pack?
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I had the same results as you with the diode across the primary coil,so I took it out as well.I'm not sure if there was one in Stans setup.It wasn't on the coil pack.
Don
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The diode is for BEMF, to allow flow without putting strain on your switch/mosfet/gate. While your interpretation of Meyers transformer is very nice, i do believe that it says "torodial" or "torid" at the primary on his schematic (I could be wrong there is about 8 patents with the same basic outlay, not all of them his).
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Stans first VIC coil did call for a torid core.But as you can see from my pic.their U cores
Don
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Don, do you have more info on the steam resonator?
I think this will proof the work by voltage concept best.
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Thanks for your clarifcation Dynodon.
Regarding your setup, did you measured the output voltage on cell @ resonance with an oscilloscpe?
If I remeber correctly some time ago you were having trouble in voltage swinging on bought +ve and -ve sides. Did you solved that issue?
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The way i see this vic from now is like a iron powder with maybe some resin small core, will make a very bad coupling and so mainly what i want to say is that it behaves much as an air core. Is too thin the iron in my point of view so it must behave like an air core.
I was making some experiments and if i just hold a magnet half meter far from the transformer it vibrates, at lower frequencies, hum there were also more amps at lower frequencies. Well, I just found interesting that the field was so big so perceptible far from the transformer.
So if the primary was also 29awg wire, must should need to be a reason. The transformer if consuming maybe less half an amp, to drive one tube as stan said that the buggy used 12v 4,4 amps... maybe 400ma for each vic. This is much different approach from what i tried to do. Maybe that was my error. Working at this densities is completely different than using slow mosfets with high amp ratings to switch the primary, witch have to do also with the precision.
Don did you made an estimative of the number of turns? Has anyone tried to desiccate the vic? From those who you talked with?
Sorry for so many questions, I'm very curious about this.
Br
Fabio
Thanks again for all info you are bringing here.
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Alan,I have no info what so ever on the steam resonator.It's just not of any interest to me.
HM,I measure voltage with a oscilloscope,and it's set for 10x probe,hooked through 10, 10 megaohm resistor devider.So on the scope it comes out to 500 volts per division.I've had it up to 4kv at one time at resonance.And yes thats a swinging voltage between positive and negative.I will still working on that issue when I get back on it full time again
Don
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4KV an no bubbles?
Perhaps with variable width plates or by playing with the dutycycle?
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sebosfato,your mixing up stans designs.The resonant cell only used milliamps.Your talking about the demo cell current at 4.4 amps.Your making the same mistakes as alot of people,mixing up designs and circuits.Anything metalic for a core material will change the inductance, no matter how small the core is.I haven't tried to figure out the number of turns Stan used on the coils.It really doesn't seem to matter.More turns ,more voltage potential.
Alan,my pwm doesn't have adjustable duty cycle.Thats something I will be changing.More testing needs to be done when I get back into it soon.
Don
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Don, were you able to get a capacitance reading from your cell? using the scope i think there is a method to do it from the discharge time, i haven't tried mine yet.
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I have a B&K LCR meter,and have measured it with that.But have no idea on how to use a scope.My scope has stopped working,but I might have found the problem.It has been a hit and miss on working ever since I bought it.My cell measures @ 50uF with city tap water.Thats for a 3 inch long,3/4 inch outside tube with .090" gap,and the center tube is a little longer.
Don
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my meter is a VC6243
I get 130 uF with rain water, measuring just one tube on my tubular array, 0.0625 gap
i'm just wondering what kind of inductance to look for, to target 10,000 hz resonance
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I was assuming from what we know about the dune buggy on the papers stan show 4amps 12v. 40kv 1ma .. So i assumed being 11 vic coils, and as he was using 2n3055 transistors he might have used about max 1 amp per vic... Well just guessing.
I was meaning air coil in the sense that the amount of core i see in the picture is not enough for more than 1 amp.. So he might have used the core only to link a bit the coupling. The charging chokes are loosely coupled in my view. While the secondary seems well coupled.
As from the experiment i described with the magnet, seems to me that stan was coupling maybe half from the core and half the air it self. By the position proximity relating to the primary coil.
When i have some more time i will try this approach. However first i will tryout my complement resonance theory.
Br
Fabio
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Don do you have a picture of the other board this connects too?
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Donald,an LC calculator says that a 1.948uH inductor will resonate at 10khz with your 130uF cap.
Don
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The coil pack plugs into the back of the control panel.Pic added,thats the only one I have.
Don
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/323vicinductance.png)
yea I was thinking, ran that calculation too, and then decided to measure my vic again, that i made based on this design, the coils are about 2000 turns of 30 gage on a flyback core and the inductance comes out in the perfect range
this coil, i haven't had luck pulsing it properly, maybe i will rewind the primary with 30 gage too, and then try when i get my pulsing circuit sorted out...
still thinking of making a new vic with the electrical steel, even closer to stans, the coils on this vic are not identical, and i could have taken much more care in winding them so they would be the same, the inductance on the other coils is a bit lower
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thanks for that pic, i have seen it before when you posted it in a different topic, i was hoping that you might have one if the inside of it to help complete the picture a bit more, thanks though
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whoa wait a minute, that 1.9 uH, not 1.9 H, i am way off, what's going on here? *thinking brb*
... it's 97 mH without the core, any ideas?
1.95 H and 130 uF will resonate at 10 Hz, could 10 Hz be the gate frequency, while 10,000 Hz is the pulse frequency? in the patent he says 0.5 Hz gate frequency for that vic which sounds like an extremely low gate freq
say my vic has 6 H (2 from each choke and the secondary) then the inductive reactance at 10,000 Hz is
XL = 2piFL
= 2 x 3.141592653 x 10 kHz x 6 H
= 4E+05 ohms (to 1 significant digit)
= 376,991 ohms
thats pretty huge, to restrict amps
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml)
measured the cell without water, so just air, and it is 25 picoF
also, calculated with air, it is 25 picoF
calculated with dielectric constant of 80 gives 2100 picoF or 2 nF
to get a calculated 130 uF, it requires a dielectric constant of 5 million
so clearly there is a difference here some how
2 nF and 10kHz gives 126 mH for res
does anyone else have some measurements and calculations to compare?
assuming 2nF is in the right ballpark, and 2000 turns of 30 gage is in the right ballpark, and i get 97 mH without a core, and Stans core was tiny, then maybe my core provides too much increase in inductance, and with a smaller core i might be closer to the 126 mH value compared to 97 mH with air-core
so maybe, the numbers work, it's just knowing which numbers to work with
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You have nice coils Donald,
You should try them with iron powder core, you can take some glue or a resin and mix with iron powder. Than you make the core the way you want.
I would make a core just like stan had, C cause is easier, i'm using a flyback core, and EE cores on my experiments, with interchangeable bobbins.
I'm realizing that resistance on the primary wire is something necessary for a well design transformer. Actually maybe is the most important thing, cause you can maybe kind of create relativistic effects.
Once i saw a patent witch claimed a device to create a wormhole... I think now i see what he was pointing, electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light or near, so if you manage to create a cycle for the waves, kind of make it ring in circles, as the waves travel in the speed of light when they finish the turn they will meet the waves in the past, cause it is moving at speed close to the speed of the light so is traveling into the time kind for the same time we think we are looking to the electromagnetic wave, "she" is also looking to us however, for she the time is passing really slower in reference to our time. Like very very ultra low frequency. So low that is like permanent in nature, just like the magnets, the earth. You might have heard about the polarity of the earth will reverse on 2012 and that is true the north will become south and south will become north not yet, actually the north will become real north as it was already south and the south, well south.
I think that if we could calculate the difference in time relative to the electromagnetic wave, and for our third dimension time, would be possible to create a resonance coupling this oscillation of the time due to the electromagnetic interaction. All than needed will be A kind of circle that traps and directs the electromagnetic waves. Waveguide. Than is all about circulate waves there, and harvest energy from the time space electromagnetic door.
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just a thought, if you build an inductor to match your resonant frequency of 10KHz, once production starts and the capacitance of your cell drops (due to more gas and less air in between plates) you will need to raise your frequency to match the lowered capacitance? would it not be a better idea to choose say 5Khz (or less) as your starting frequency?
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whoa wait a minute, that 1.9 uH, not 1.9 H, i am way off, what's going on here? *thinking brb*
... it's 97 mH without the core, any ideas?
1.95 H and 130 uF will resonate at 10 Hz, could 10 Hz be the gate frequency, while 10,000 Hz is the pulse frequency? in the patent he says 0.5 Hz gate frequency for that vic which sounds like an extremely low gate freq
say my vic has 6 H (2 from each choke and the secondary) then the inductive reactance at 10,000 Hz is
XL = 2piFL
= 2 x 3.141592653 x 10 kHz x 6 H
= 4E+05 ohms (to 1 significant digit)
= 376,991 ohms
thats pretty huge, to restrict amps
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml)
measured the cell without water, so just air, and it is 25 picoF
also, calculated with air, it is 25 picoF
calculated with dielectric constant of 80 gives 2100 picoF or 2 nF
to get a calculated 130 uF, it requires a dielectric constant of 5 million
so clearly there is a difference here some how
2 nF and 10kHz gives 126 mH for res
does anyone else have some measurements and calculations to compare?
assuming 2nF is in the right ballpark, and 2000 turns of 30 gage is in the right ballpark, and i get 97 mH without a core, and Stans core was tiny, then maybe my core provides too much increase in inductance, and with a smaller core i might be closer to the 126 mH value compared to 97 mH with air-core
so maybe, the numbers work, it's just knowing which numbers to work with
My 2 cents..
Use different meters and you will notice different readings.
I also had readings like uF, but during my tests i concluded that that could not be the truth.
Basically, i use for easy calculation a 1 till 10nF for one single Meyer tube.
Steve
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Hey Don, nice to see ya back...Thanks for the new pic of the 5 coil VIC. Ive been looking over it and I see that Stan used either a MUR1550 or MUR1560 diode between the Sec. and L1...also looks like the green resistor is a 2w-5w 20 ohm or 120 ohm resistor maybe used to limit the current in the primary...the two 220 ohm resistors which Im about 90% sure where connected on to the pickup coil leads, am I right about this Don? Also another thing about this coil, in one of Stan's international patents he says this type coils has a Pri:Sec ratio of 1:30, with the primary being 200 turns and Secondary being 1:10, L1/L2 being 1:10 each...with that being said, that would make the secondary 2,000 turns and L1/L2 also 2,000 turns each...with a total for Sec+L1+L2 = 6,000 turns total (1:30). This should give u a Positive high voltage on the output of the L1 coil and a Negative high voltage on the output of the L2 coil....btw Don me & Spencer have about got the main circuit values all worked out, just need to figure out a couple more resistor and capacitor values, but we have the IC's all down :-)
-Tony Woodside-
http://www.GlobalKast.com
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That's right Tony, also, the core is of ferromagnetic material and will act as a frequency doubler, so that should help in the 10kHz question using 5kHz as a base FR.
This paper appears in: PGMTT National Symposium Digest (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?punumber=8199)
Issue Date: May 1961
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/PGMTT.1961.1122355 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/PGMTT.1961.1122355)
Date of Current Version: 06 januari 2003
"In experiments on frequency doubling using ferrite slabs in a rectangular wave guide, planar ferrites consistently had much greater conversion efficiency than isotropic ferrites. The principle results are shown in Fig. 1. The geometry used is also shown in Fig. 1. The primary frequency was in the range of 8.5 to 9.1 kilomegacycles. The reference power level (0 db) was one watt peak power. The duty cycle was 10-4. The material properties are given in the appendix."
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1122355
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Dynodon , You said in your post that your coil set when in resonance only pulls 20 milliamps.And the resonance is @ 10khz. My question is: 20 milliamps pulls primary coil or pulls water capacitor? And other question do you check inductance of your primary , secondary and choke coils and can give it?
thank
siwa
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just a thought, if you build an inductor to match your resonant frequency of 10KHz, once production starts and the capacitance of your cell drops (due to more gas and less air in between plates) you will need to raise your frequency to match the lowered capacitance? would it not be a better idea to choose say 5Khz (or less) as your starting frequency?
Perhaps siwa is right and the 20ma or most if not all the power is used / fully converted to magnetic fields by the coils, so there is no energy available to flow to the WFC so perhaps a drop in capacitance doesn't matter.
What happens when the field collapses? Does the stored energy in the coils do flow to the WFC now?
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Tony,the diode was the MUR type that Stan gives the number to in his tech brief.Don't remember which one off hand.The resistors were across the feedback coil only.Not all the coil packs had that many resistors.There's no way you could get 2000 turns of 29 gauge wire on the chokes or secondary.I don't know trhe ratios,but I doubt that he used a 30:1 ratio.
My primary coil is pulling 20ma.My whole pulsing circuit pulls 160ma before pulsing coils.Then it goes to 180 at resonance.While tuning it's over 200ma.I'll take a look at my notes later on my coil specs.
Don
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Don thanks for your ansver. I be waiting for coils spec.
thanks
siwa
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OK I mesured my coils tonight.All of my wire is 30 gauge .010" diameter.
Primary inductance= 200mH , 200 turns
Secondary inductance= 3H , 1000 turns
Chokes inductance= 6.5H , 2000 turns
Ferroxcube U core,the largest one they make
again my LC resonance is @10khz at @ 1kv at the cell
Don
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Hi Dynodon. What cell did you measure with? Is this with or without water? Thank you for your time and info! Oh, yeah! and why did you choose to use the same size wire for both primary and secondary/chokes?
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My measurements are of the coils themselves.My cell is a 3" tube set covered in delrin with tap water.All coils were measured with a B&K LCR meter with all the coils on the core,and all leads open,not connected to anything.
Stan's coils were all the same size wire and thats what I did as well.Power going to the cell is so small,large wire isn't needed.
Don
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Thank you for the clarification. Very interesting! Does your VIC get warm at all? I am assuming you are not getting any abnormal amount of gas production with such low current. How much water is the cell submerged in? I often have wondered after seeing a picture of the multi-celled, white, round, whatever it was called, if the water level was just slightly above or maybe even a little lower from the top of the cells. The way the design is made, the reservoir in the middle of the cell would lead me to think that the water was meant to flow out of the cells back into reservoir with great speed. This rapid circulation would possibly aid in releasing gasses from the bubbles more effectively and further ionization of the gasses. I wonder if the mass of the water has to, in some way, match up to the 10Khz? Everything else in the world has a resonance based on it's mass, why not water too? But, then you may have to ponder if the mass is only relevant to the space in the cell only, or is the entire bath part of the equation.
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Thanks for the info Don.
From where online can I buy that 'Ferroxcube U core' you are using?
I would like to buy one because the flybacks I have are tiny compared to what stan was using !
HM
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Ferroxcube U core,the largest one they make
Laminated?
Also, did you insulate your WFC electrodes?
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Everything else in the world has a resonance based on it's mass, why not water too?
building/ Tuning a circuit to match the acoustic frequency of the cylinder I feel would promote the resonance of mass (water).
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Bubz,my coils never get even warm,because there is no current,just voltage potential.Only a very small trickle of gas if you look very close.This is a good thing.My cell is completely covered in water,as with Stans resonant cell.There is water level detectors in the side of Stans cell that indicates the level.The cell is a full flow system.Water is always circulating back to the holding tank.The resonance in this cell is only between the tubes.Your not trying to resonate the whole cell cavity.
HM,I bought my U cores on Ebay.If you go to their web site I'm sure you can find a dealer list somewher on it.Just about any type of core will work,it just limits how much wire you can get on the bobbins that fit them.Smaller bobbins may need smaller gauge wire to get enough on them.
Alan,My cores are ferrite,but laminate will work also.Up to a point.And I've mentioned before my tube set is covered in delrin.Not individually insolated,tubes are bare.
Don
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Thanks again Don! Sorry for all the questions... Is the measured 1Kv the target voltage you are shooting for? Why did you choose that value?
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1kv is just what it makes with these coils.I didn't set it up to that value.I will probably wind new coils to get around 2kv.Stan states that around 1kv the water molecule starts to elongate.So I want to be over that mark.
Don
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Don - SM actually states that it will start to elongate at circa 1500V.
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Just figured I would post this image that I drew up. It's the Pulse Triggering Circuit from the 8XA circuit.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/PulseTrigger_Trace.png)
-Tony Woodside-
.: Water Fuel Cell Research :.
http://www.globalkast.com (http://www.globalkast.com)
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Techhbrief mentions for wiregauge 0.002, 0.004 and 0.03, what are these numbers (diameter?) and to which AWG do they correspond?
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-this is in inchs
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Alan your mixing up different coils designs.Those values go to the water injector coils.Alot of people here needs to keep reading the tech brief, to get a better understanding of the different types of tech he actually had.Too many people are mixing up his work.READ THE BRIEFS!!!!It's all in there and get it straight as to what coil goes to what cell.
Don
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I know these are for the injector :)
These numbers from the techbrief (part 6) I cannot find them on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
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Techhbrief mentions for wiregauge 0.002, 0.004 and 0.03, what are these numbers (diameter?) and to which AWG do they correspond?
Seems to be in inches Alan
.00314 = 40 gauge so the .002 is smaller wire then 40 gauge
.00445= 37 gauge
.0359 = 19 gauge
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Thanks.
Part 6 talks about SS 0.002 inch diameter 40+ AWG, but part 7 talks about 36 AWG for the same SS wire.
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OK I mesured my coils tonight.All of my wire is 30 gauge .010" diameter.
Primary inductance= 200mH , 200 turns
Secondary inductance= 3H , 1000 turns
Chokes inductance= 6.5H , 2000 turns
Ferroxcube U core,the largest one they make
again my LC resonance is @10khz at @ 1kv at the cell
Don
Hi Don,
I was just working out the math based on your values and this is what I've come up with:
Applied Voltage to Primary 12v @ 10khz
Primary XL = 12.56k Ohms
Sec. XL = 188.4k Ohms
L1 XL = 408.2k Ohms
L2 XL = 408.2k Ohms
Primary current @ 10khz = 12v/12.56k Ohms = 955uA
Sec.+L1+L2 = 1004.8k Ohms, current @ 10khz = 1000v/1004.8k Ohms = 955uA
As you can see the Primary current is equal to the LC current (Prim.=Sec.), this is resonance. I didn't figure in the resistance of the capacitor because it is so low that it's negligible.
-Tony Woodside-
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Are you sure about that? Did you tried it?
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these numbers are based on Don's values and he says he got resonance @ 10khz with 1kv at the cell, so these numbers show that he was getting resonance @ 10khz.
-Tony Woodside-
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Tony, if the primary is pulling 20 mA like he says, then there must be something missing from your analysis?
12v and 20 mA = 0.24 watts
at 1kv, =0.00024 amps though the cell, or 1/4 of a mA
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My calculations are based on 1st approximation which is "ideal" conditions, in electronics you have 3 approximations, 1st, 2nd & 3rd....3rd being the most detailed and in depth.
-Tony Woodside-
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I don't see how you can approximate 20 mA as 955uA
my point is we are missing some piece(s) of information here
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Now there's also something else ya have to remember here, depending on the test equipment, most meters are not accurate at frequencies over 500Hz. So the current reading maybe not be accurate due to propagation of the meter.
-Tony Woodside-
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As you can see the Primary current is equal to the LC current (Prim.=Sec.), this is resonance. I didn't figure in the resistance of the capacitor because it is so low that it's negligible.
-Tony Woodside-
I'm guessing you meant XL current.
You certainly can't calculate LC resonance without C and therefore it is not a resonance calculation at all.
Pulsing frequency and the gating of it are major factors of the system resonance in my opinion.
Mike
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@10khz, Capacitor (XC) = 1.6nF
XL = 2pi * f*L
XC = 2pi * f*C
fr = 1/ (2pi * sqrt(LC))
Primary = 12.56k Ohms
(Sec.+L1+L2+XC = Rt) = 188.4k + 408.2k + 408.2k + 9.952k = 1014752 Ohms
Primary 12v@10khz = 12/12.56k = 995uA
LC 1kv@10khz = 1kv/1014754 = 985uA
so by adding in the XC you get a difference of 10uA
fr = 1/ (2pi * sqrt(16H)*(1.6nF))
Im using 1.6nF because thats the capacitance of the 3" tube set.
so actually in with these values that Don has, the resonant frequency would be around 995Hz, not 10khz. The resonance that Stan Meyer's talks about isnt resonance as most people think. He used terms that weren't being used in it correct sense.
-Tony Woodside-
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I have a question that I want to be some attention to. A while back I thought this problem over and worked it out and had to come up with a formula for this situation. Well as Stan states in his papers that the chokes act as a frequency doubler, then you cannot use the basic series LC formula 1/(2pi* sqrt(LC)) to find the Resonant Frequency. So i came up with a formula to find this resonant frequency.
Here is an example:
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/LCcircuit3.png)
if you pulse the Primary @ 5khz, the Secondary will also pulse @ 5khz, the chokes will have 5khz going in but will have 10khz coming out so that the Capacitor will be hit with a 10khz frequency!!!
So for a normal LC non-doubling circuit you would have the following:
Primary pulsed @ 5khz the LC resonant frequency for a setup with the Sec+L1+L2= 9H and C= 1.6nF Resonant Freq. = 1327 Hz
Now this same set up as a LC Frequency Doubling circuit would give the following resonant frequency:
Primary pulsed @ 5khz the Resonant Frequency = 938 Hz
So as you can see we have a lower Resonant Frequency from the same circuit and the only difference one is configured as a frequency doubler. This has to be accounted for in Stan's setup!!!!
-Tony Woodside-
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The 20ma's is what my power supply shows being used.It's not read with a amp meter.That is the actual power going into the primary right from my power supply.
One other point about frequency doubling.It isn't doubled through the chokes,it's doubled because of the blocking diode.The diode creates the double pulse.Even Stan states that fact in his New Zealand video.Also search the net for diode frequency doubling.I was just reading about that fact last night.
I have never seen this doubling effect myself,but I am seeing the frequency cut in half with this setup right now.My frequency generator is putting in 20khz,and I'm reading 10khz at the cell.Not sure what that's all about.I will retest again once I get my scope working or get a new one.These frequencies were taken with a Fluke DVOM.It's got me stumped,because before I would see pulse for pulse.In 5khz and out 5khz.
Don
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I have seeing the doubling effect however i was using 2 diodes for this. There were two coils one connected thru a diode to the secondary and in series with the cell, and the other (bifilar) connecter to a diode on one side going to the cell positive, and the other side of this coil only connected to the cell negative side. It gave me the exact waveform stan show, but only having tap water. I could not replicate the effect again as the diodes got destructed. they were rated 600v 70amps. I need to buy some more and do more test.. I would need also a better scope to be sure of this. However this schematic i have posted before. Is this one...
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What are these called?
Will a massive ferrite core work for the VIC instead of laminated? Lamination sellers have minimum orders of €500 or 1000KG :-\
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Just a thought, in the picture in post 10, I see what I think is a green coil between yellow and blue coils. I would assume by looking at the cavity between the chokes that the dementions are the same between the lower bobbins. If I'm completely wrong or just ignorant , someone please shed some light my way and explain what green (coil?) is. thanks.......
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Green coil = feedback to PLL
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Thanks Alan!
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NP.
How can I measure the HV output of the VIC with my (yet to receive) scope safely with a voltage divider or HV probe, without blowing up my scope?
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Well i don't have this answer, I had a scope and i burned it using a 1000:1 probe... the probe was rated at 40kv, maybe was my fault by having exceed a lot this voltage during the tests...
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Damn, that sucks. Could you repair it?
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I have found ferrite EE-cores, how are they clamped together?
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not yet, i left it in italy...
you could use some tape or anyway you find easier.
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Alan,you can use a voltage divider.Get 10 each 1megaohm resistors and hook them up in series.Hook one end to the cell positive and the other end to ground.Then hook the scope probe between the 9th and 10th resistor.That would be closer to the ground end of the resistor dividers.This will give you a divide by 10 output to the scope.With a probe set on 10x and this divider,you'll get 100:1 ratio.
Don
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NP.
How can I measure the HV output of the VIC with my (yet to receive) scope safely with a voltage divider or HV probe, without blowing up my scope?
Alan,
You are welcome to hook your VIC up to my scope with HV probe...
Takes a 1 hour drive...
Steve
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Cool, I'll let you know when I have finished it.
What kind of probe and scope do you use for this?
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aha, amps and volts 180 degree out of phase...
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outlaw, Nice work, I noticed at 2:37 time in your vid two purple rays the camera picked up. A vid with T. Bearden and F. Sweet had them to. I remember some other vids having them but don't recall who they were. My question is could that be radiant energy that can only be seen with the camera?
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He says that he's getting 15W or so out while putting 187V*1.45A in, power factor close to zero, but not really zero (see it in the oscilloscope).
so lets calculate the power factor for this conversion cos phi = 15W/(187*1.45VA) = 0.055.
That may be what the oscilloscope showed so nothing abnormal here, i guess? :-\
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haithar, you have some knowledge in this area, is the theory of or idea behind the bi-toroid transformer even reasonable?
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Can you explain more? I did not read this thread except for this last page with the supposed 0 power factor video.
A bifilar coil can either restrict current (in my tests a quadruplication of inductance if connected in a way that the current is aligned) or nullify inductance nearly completely (if connected in a way that the current is opposed) and if pulsed right double the number of pulses (did it with my own setup). What else is expected?
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sorry, i thought you were familiar with this guys other videos too, i think his basic idea is to have 2 cores in one transformer, the first core has a primary and secondary, and the second core only has the secondary on it, and somehow when you draw a load on the secondary the primary is unaffected, not sure how, but the idea is to pull current out of the secondary and not have it pull the load through the primary because the second core re-directs the flux around.... i don't completely get it, i was wondering if you did, or maybe anyone else?
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this video is the syncing of vco's which is what a pll circuit does?
phase locked loop = phase synchronized loop
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Hello outlawstc,
Yes the pll can do this, i'm not sure if he is using a pll. Actually if i understood well the guy is synchronizing the beginning and the end of the pulse with the square wave. If i understood well when the square wave is on, it turns off the saw oscillator and until the square is off the saw wave wont start. It is a kind of synchronization, like those for half wave bridge drivers.
Thinking yet better you can do this if the saw source have a trigger input so you can use logic Ics to accomplish this kind of sync.
This kind of sync is 20milion times better than dave lawton circuits cause when you adjust the right frequencies you will get the resonance pulses always being sent at the right time. This is interesting. What was that circuit from the video used for?
A pll can pick up a signal and tune into it, it can do this because there is a capacitor witch is the filter that stabilize the voltage of the VCO, when the received signal frequency is different from the signal it is generating and is in the bandwidth of the pll, it will automatically control the voltage of this filter capacitor to adjust to the frequency received. Stan created a resonant scanning circuit that was able to scan the frequencies by changing the voltage of the VCO arbitrary and when the frequency match the resonance, the scanning circuit turn off by receiving a signal from the pll lock in circuit witch is feature of the pll chips witch you can make to light a led to know if you are in tune and also to control logics when in resonance or out like turning on and off automatically the scan circuit.. I'm going to get my mind on work next year to have the power stage just like the one he proposed using bipolar transistors. Even if they are more sensitive, i think that they are faster and the most important feature is the current control.
Stan copied this from a Japanese patent witch he mentioned in the PLL patent.
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I have been working on drawing the dimensions for the delrin bobbin assembly.. heres where im at..
i decided to measure a serial port on my computer from mount hole to mount hole center.. its 1 inch..
i printed up a pic that matched the serial port in the photo to 1 inch.. so i guess you could say a decently scaled photo to match the real size?
here are the choke bobbin dimensions i came up with..
from a top view,
depth = the depth of wind cavity in inches
length = length of coil cavity in inches
width= the width of the bobbin (thickness of bobbin)
top view of choke cavity gives these variables
depth = .5"
length = 1.375
width = .625
side view gives these variables
depth= .625
length = 1.375"
width= .375
there is a variance of depth and of width between the two angles of view...
when it comes to using the multi layer coil formula how does one account for the 2 perspectives of bobbin dimension?
looking at stans vic, it seems that the bobbin core is not square but rather its rectangular.. is there a way to calculate a means between the 2?
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can someone share the math approach for converting the air core value of a inductor to one with a core? something to do with permittivity.. i think me and ancientmist were discussing at one time.. is it that you multiply the inductance value of a air core by the permittivity value of a core?
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Hello owtlaw, there is a formula witch i don't remember very well that i found in a book. However you can find it on wiki too...
Would be 4pi× 10^7 * ur * (N^2*r^2/D)
ur is the relative permeability of the core
N^2 stands for number of turns squared
r^2 is the radius of the coil winding squared in meters
and D is the diameter
4pi × 10^7 is the permeability of free space, it is multiplied by the relative permeability of the core so you have the absolute permeability.
There are other formulas in witch you input the core cross section witch i think could be more precise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor)
You could use the short air coil calculation witch i found is great even if bit complex-
Man the coils are an art.
I use to make like 10 turns than measure the inductance, than i divide this value by 100 (turns squared) and i get the inductance per 1 turn squared. Than i calculate for the number of turns i want. For me this is the easiest way.
I have a nice news, yesterday i made the inscription in the fei institute of electrical engineering. I had to sign something like a NDA contract saying that any idea or patent or anything i have in the next 5 years will be their possession, except of this i'm very happy. hehe I just made this to assure that i will be doing an university next year, i still making other exams for trying the physics university...
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OK I mesured my coils tonight.All of my wire is 30 gauge .010" diameter.
Primary inductance= 200mH , 200 turns
Secondary inductance= 3H , 1000 turns
Chokes inductance= 6.5H , 2000 turns
Ferroxcube U core,the largest one they make
again my LC resonance is @10khz at @ 1kv at the cell
Don
Don,
I try to replicate the VIC coils in the BOX (3-23 VIC).
Is this the core you are using a: Ferroxcube U core U126/91/20?
When Relative Permeability ?/?0 for a U126/91/20 core is 2050.
The choke inductance (no core) should go down from 6.5H to 3.17mH, correct?
It would be nice to know each coil resistance.
Are you using the coil dimensions in the (3-23 VIC BOX) picture?
I'm having difficulty to find the resonance frequency. Not in range 1 - 10kHz.
My sec and chokes are: 48.8Ohm / 153.6mH / 0.25mm2 / 2000 turns (core) 31.7mH (no core)
br,
Webmug
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my cores are UR64/40/20-3F3
I've changed coils so often since that post,I don't know where I'm at now.My latest coils resonate @ 30khz.
My coils are made to fit the window area of each side,can't make them any longer.
Don
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my cores are UR64/40/20-3F3
I've changed coils so often since that post,I don't know where I'm at now.My latest coils resonate @ 30khz.
My coils are made to fit the window area of each side,can't make them any longer.
Don
Ok, thanks for the update 8)
I'm thinking about winding choke1 (bifilar) and choke2 (bifilar).
The one generating the highest voltage to charge the cell?
1. Parallel- wound, series connected?
2. Parallel-wound, parallel connected?
3. Counter-wound, series connected?
4. Counter-wound, parallel connected?
???
br,
Webmug
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All my testing shows that seperate choke coils get higher voltage than bifiller.All wound in same direction,and all of their poles aligned in series around the core.
Don
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All my testing shows that seperate choke coils get higher voltage than bifiller.All wound in same direction,and all of their poles aligned in series around the core.
Don
Did you connect a bifilar choke like this: http://www.k3hkr.com/images/Baluns/BiFoWOUND.jpg (http://www.k3hkr.com/images/Baluns/BiFoWOUND.jpg) and make two of them separate on a core?
br,
Webmug
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No I haven't,and I never see Stan do that method either.
Don
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No I haven't,and I never see Stan do that method either.
Don
Ok, we are talking only about the Resonance WFC system . It was only a thought. ;)
So normal coil as a choke should work best?
Stan mentions DUAL RESONANT COILS/ BIFILAR SPIRAL WRAP COILS for the Injector VIC (580)
The Injector was the successor of the resonance WFC...I don't want to mix the two.
br,
Webmug
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Webmug I have tested (tested meaning measured the inductance of...) that winding pattern, it's the same as teslas bifilar as shown down below
(http://www.k3hkr.com/images/Baluns/BiFoWOUND.jpg)
If you measure only the Black coil at say, 1 H (random value), and then only the Red coil, will be 1 H as well, and then if you connect as shown, you will measure 4 H from A to B
so this can be used to increase inductance of a given coil for less turns, note that this considers A to B (red and black) as a single choke
This is worth more investigation. here is something i though of trying a few years ago, but still havent tried...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/collected/Picture27-3.png)
for this you could have those two chokes next to each other on the same core or try different things...
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http://www.mkmagnetics.com/ (http://www.mkmagnetics.com/)
@ donaldwfc
you documents collection is excellent
could you fix the broken document wfc news 1984 (8 pages) it stops downloading at 30.2 mb
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Could it be a different core material than Ferrite. That core material for VIC 3-23 looks way too shiny.
What about Supermalloy or Permalloy?
Magnetic permeability is much higher than Ferrite? Why use a flat core in the VIC 3-23?
Magnetic permeability of Ferrite is low with those dimensions.
Any ideas?
br,
Webmug
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I would go for what stan said, oriented grain electrical steel laminations. This is made to work at high frequencies.
Otherwise you could use amorphous laminations witch is even better.
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That's right Tony, also, the core is of ferromagnetic material and will act as a frequency doubler, so that should help in the 10kHz question using 5kHz as a base FR.
This paper appears in: PGMTT National Symposium Digest (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?punumber=8199)
Issue Date: May 1961
Digital Object Identifier: 10.1109/PGMTT.1961.1122355 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/PGMTT.1961.1122355)
Date of Current Version: 06 januari 2003
"In experiments on frequency doubling using ferrite slabs in a rectangular wave guide, planar ferrites consistently had much greater conversion efficiency than isotropic ferrites. The principle results are shown in Fig. 1. The geometry used is also shown in Fig. 1. The primary frequency was in the range of 8.5 to 9.1 kilomegacycles. The reference power level (0 db) was one watt peak power. The duty cycle was 10-4. The material properties are given in the append
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that photo above is a wound core with blue epoxy coating... nanocrystalline... they had a couple left from a batch that was just off spec... something tom bearden used for his MEG... at least thats what the chief of operations told me... i think they have a few of these left.
they were going to gap one for me because if we do it in a garage with a hacksaw the result will be shorted laminations and both halves need to be polished to a fine straight line across both halves so a hand saw would cut a crooked gap... wont work
also if the fine chips from the blade end up between the wound laminations the turns will short out then you need to put both ends in an acid bath to clean out the shorted turns.... very high tech cores !
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Hi,
I'm new on this forum and just read through this topic. But some questions/comments arrived:
@Dynodon:
The core was two flat U cores about an 1/8 inch thick and about 1/2 wide
Jesus, was the core area really that small on this 5-Coil-VIC? Is that a screw in between the 2 choke coils on the pic, or is this the core? If it's the core, then from the picture it looks definitely gapped. This would be for me actually the only explanation, how a core with such a small core area could have been used without being saturated. Although if only a small current is flowing, with that many windings (from the pic and AWG size I would guess about 2'000 per bobbin), it would certainly saturate any ungapped Iron-powder or ferrite core. I would even have doubts if a steel core could handle it with such a small core area.
If it is an ungapped core, then the only conclusion I could draw is, that he intentionally let the core go into saturation.
Alan,you can use a voltage divider.Get 10 each 1megaohm resistors and hook them up in series.Hook one end to the cell positive and the other end to ground.Then hook the scope probe between the 9th and 10th resistor.That would be closer to the ground end of the resistor dividers.This will give you a divide by 10 output to the scope.With a probe set on 10x and this divider,you'll get 100:1 ratio.
Just a little correction. I think you accidently made here a mistake by saying only 1MOhm instead of 10, for at the beginning of the thread you explained it correctly. To get a 100:1 with a 10:1 probe you need 9x10MOhm resistors. That means actually a resistance of 90MOhms. Your 10:1 probe has internally a 9MOhm resistor. The oscilloscope has a 1Mohm input resistance. So you will now have in total 90MOhm from your resistors+9Mohm from your probe+1Mohm from the oscilloscope=Total of 100MOhm. As the scope has a 1MOhm input, it will see only 1/100 of the total voltage.
So again in a short version: You need to place 90MOhm (eg. 9pcs of 10MOhm resistors) in between your 10xprobe and the cell to measure at 100:1. Voilà!
Did you actually really exactly look, how the coils were interconnected, or is this just a guess. As I understand you say, they were all connected in series with the WFC in between all in the same orientation. This means: If the primary gets current, then: The pos side of the secondary goes to the diode. The pos side of the first choke coil goes to the WFC. The pos side of the second choke coil is again at the secondary.
Additional question, which I think could be important. Did you see, if he electrically isolated the circuit, or was it grounded. Was the neg side of the secondary anywhere connected except the second choke coil, or was there any other ground connection (E.g. was the diode in the 5-coil-VIC mounted with isolation)?
Additional question: Somewhere here in the forum you state, that the "8XA-Circuit" wasn't a resonance circuit. How did you get to this conclusion?
I don't want to offend you, but I think it actually is. If you simply connect and drive it in the way Stan did, you will clearly see, that at a certain frequency you will get a resonance.
(I attached a small pic of my scope which shows the resonance condition. Unfortunately I could only drive the circuit with 20Volts, as my frequency generator surely cannot output more. I also only made very few windings, therefore the resonance frequency is a bit high (25 KHz), but I think the basic principle remains the same.
If one does look at how he connected the choke coils in this "8XA-Circuit", it is obvious, that if he really connected them like that, then they surely do not limit current in any way, as they cancel each others field out and are only seen as a resistance by the input voltage. But due to the capacitance in the system (and I don't mean the WFC capacitance, as this capacitance is at least for this circuit almost completely neglectable), the system is able to start to resonate and the voltage of the coils rise.
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5135/yellowonwfcbluefgsignal.gif)
Blue: Input Signal after the Diode
Yellow: Signal on WFC (first choke coil side)
Red: Voltage over first choke coil
If this is really how this "8XA-Circuit" worked. Then it would make sense, that he introduced the primary/secondary (in a forward converter usage) as a replacement for the direct connection of the input voltage. But if the 5-Coil-VIC really would also have worked on the same basic principle, then the choke coils would have been wired differently (namely the same way, as in the "8XA-Circuit"). Therefore my above question about the wiring and orientation. If you say, that the choke coils in the VIC you saw were definitely (100% sure) not connected like that (same polarity to WFC), then that's OK, but I just wanted to be sure about that.
I would be really grateful if you could shed some light on these points, as you are the only one I know, who actually really saw Stan's originals.
I would go for what stan said, oriented grain electrical steel laminations. This is made to work at high frequencies.
Just to mention: The most important factor, when it goes about laminated steel cores and frequency is lamination thickness. If you go by the frequencies here used, i would say, the laminations should be <= 0.25mm. And to get cores with such thin laminations is not that easy. Audio-Transformers usually have them, as they also operate at these frequencies.
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I'm planning to create an extreme version of the color-taped VIC, using 38AWG (ex. coating size) for secondary and chokes and for the primary a thicker wire on a modified EI to UI core.
Turns:
Primary: 50-100
Secondary: 30k-40k
Chokes: 30k-40k
Ratio Pri:Sec for 50:30000 = 5:3000. input 12V -> 7,2KV
Never wound a coil before, but I definately won't do it by hand ;D
Am researching the coating for the available wire atm (7KG 38awg bobbin)
any suggestions?
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kali,
The cores for the vic coil were as stated.They did touch when put into coils.That's just a hole in the bobbin to see that the cores are together.The picture of the vic coil,the coil pack wasn't bolted down,so they may not have been touching.
As for the explanation of the 100:1 resistor divider you give makes sense and explains some things to me that I have seen in testing with mine.An electronics engineer gave me those numbers and a spice file showing a dived by ten using the 10 1meg ohm resistors.I measured my probe on 10x and it does measure 9meg.I will have to correct my resistor divider.Thanks for that info.
The coils were wired and hooked up just as I said.That info was taken directly from the vic coil.
The negative connection was isolated,not connected to any ground plane.And the diode was isolated mounted to coil case.
As for the plate cell resonating,I never saw it with a scope.Your test looks like you were driving the coil with a square wave only.The 8xa circuit drives the choke coil with a rectified ac wave and square waves.It gives a totally different output to the coils.You get unipolar humps with a frequency riding on top of it.Your wave is totally different.With my vic coil setup like Stans,I get the same waveform output that your scope shot shows.
Don
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First: Thank you very very much for your answers, really!
That's just a hole in the bobbin to see that the cores
Could it be, that maybe he made the hole to be able to insert anything in there, so that the core gets a little gap?
For this is surely an important fact for me. If it was really ungapped, I would bet my left hand and right foot, that the core goes into saturation. This would actually mean, that suddenly all the resonance frequencies would drastically increase in the middle of every half-wave, which means the dU/dt values would rise a lot.
The 8xa circuit drives the choke coil with a rectified ac wave and square waves.It gives a totally different output to the coils.
Actually if you test it, it doesn't really make any difference in this setup in relation to the resonance if you use a square wave or a rectified AC wave. You can see this very clearly if you modulate any wave pattern from the frequency generator with the overlaying on off timing. The only important thing would be to correctly time them on and off (namely at the resonance frequency). The kind of wave pattern you switch on and off is actually not really that important (although a square wave pattern can surely boost your resonance to the highest voltage, for obvious reasons). In this crude setup, which was surely one of his earlier ones, IMHO he just still needed the unfiltered rectified AC Signal to be able to switch it with a SCR.
At least this is the conclusion I drew, by experimenting with this early circuit setup.
Surely this is only true in relation to getting the resonance (the coil part). The actual wave-pattern itself is additionally seen directly by the resistance of the WFC. If it then makes a difference in the overall functioning , I don't know, but I don't think so. But as long as not anyone is really able to replicate a working VIC, which yields more hydrogen than it should, IMHO everyone is allowed to have his theory, as how exactly these circuits split water more effectively than "generally allowed" ;) .
I personally would currently have 2 main suggestions how he did split the water:
1.) He used the uneven E-Field distribution in a water cell (Helmholtz-Layer) to get the necessary high E-field for splitting water. The needed E-Field is quite high. According to the Tay-Hee Han patent (US patent 4427512) at least an E-field of 20kV/mm is needed. IMHO he manipulated the Helmholtz-Layer with the help of the "choke coils" in a basic circuit very similar to Dr. Stifflers circuit.
2.) He used a system, as described by the professor in the evaluation report. Namely, that he does let the normal brownian movement do the work to ionize the water, and then separates these ions from each other with the help of an E-field. If he then neutralizes them again (collapsing of the E-Field), you will have an electrolysis which is much more efficient than usual, as the additional energy is coming from the heat energy of the water. But if this system was used, then the WFC should have substantially dropped in temperature. In the smaller 3inch cells, it would have frozen the water, if it would not have been continuously run through the cell to prevent this. But as this is not the case, as I understood Stan, this hypothesis is not that solid.
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I can not see there being any gap in the cores once the coils are bolted to the case.The end caps on the coil pack has to be squeezed in on the U cores in order to bolt the assembly down.At that point there is no gap.
Here's a picture of the pulses at the cell from the 8xa circuit.This should help you see what I'm talking about.
Don
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Thank you very much.
I guess this is the voltage over the WFC? It seems a bit strange, as the top ripples, which should come from the AC-wave look more rectangular than tops of sines, but this could well be due to parasitics. It looks like the SS wasn't in such a good shape anymore, as the base electrode potential is quite high.
Interestingly I just woke up and thinking about why he isolated the circuit and came upon the idea, that in the "8xa circuit" he didn't made the switch on/off at the resonance frequency, but rather the rectified AC was already on the resonance frequency of the circuit.
For what I stated above is surely only true if the Ton/Toff is at the resonance frequency. But it surely also works, to have an unrectified AC to get the coils into resonance. To get them into resonance it is only important, that the input voltage gets higher and lower exactly at the resonant frequency. Surely a square wave would be best, but maybe too complicated for Stan to produce in this early stage.
But this would have been a total pain in the a s s to make the circuit so, as to exactly hit the resonance frequency with a fixed frequency input.
Why did I come upon this?
I was lying in bed and asked myself: Why did he isolate the circuit. There must be a reason for this. The only reason I could get was, that the overall potential might change during a Ton-Gating sequence, but this you could only measure if you don't make any earth connection with your scope to the cell.
I came upon another functional Hypotheses:
Actually this one, I already had a long time ago, but threw it away as I just couldn't image how one could make the corresponding circuit (if it is doable at all), but it now resurfaced. It is interesting to note that in an electrolysis process the splitting of the water molecule needs a different amount of energy at the 2 electrodes. The final reaction at the cathode (Hydrogen production) needs almost no potential and is therefore actually very "cheap" to produce. But the anode-potential is the real bugger, the oxygen atom in the final OH- molecule just wont let go the last hydrogen atom. There a lot of energy is wasted. This is why in optimizing conventional electrolysis processes, one focuses a lot on minimizing this potential.
But what if one creates a process which just focuses on making an asymmetric electrolysis. Namely we just actively try to get a cathode reaction. But this would obviously result in a rise in potential of the water. And here's the problem. Usually if I still try to get even more cathode reaction, I need more and more voltage (which means more energy), as the water already has that voltage. But if there would be any way, that the actual circuit would also rise in potential together with the water bath, it would work. You would get very cheap hydrogen. But there surely would be a point, where the potential cannot be heightened anymore, due to losses to the environment (therefore with this process it would be extremely important to heavily insulate the WFC). When one then does finally Stop the process, the water potential would come down again, and the anode reaction could now take place (for free, as no energy is needed in this step). This could be the reason for gating.
But I don't think this is really a reasonable idea, as if it would be really possible to make such a circuit you would additionally easily be able to produce electricity out of it for free (at the final anode discharge). Strictly speaking this would be a charging of a capacitor with only a linear dependency to voltage, in relation to the actual energy in the capacitor itself which is square to the voltage. I wouldn't see where here the energy should come from, therefore I don't think it's a reasonable theory.
Sorry, this got a bit offtopic in here. But hey here it's now 5 o'clock in the morning...
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Kali, basically what Stan's input waveform to the cell is suppose to look like is a full-wave rectification of an AM signal like the 3rd image in the picture below.
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Kali, basically what Stan's input waveform to the cell is suppose to look like is a full-wave rectification of an AM signal like the 3rd image in the picture below.
This is at least like that in the Puharich-Patent. The question remains, if Stans WFC worked the same way as Puharich's. I doubt that, as the amplitude modulation frequency from Puharich was very very low.
Puharich himself actually never claimed that his process has an overunity which defies current electrolysis laws. And, what maybe some people here might astonish it is theoretically possible even for conventional electrolysis to have more than 100% efficiency (related to electrical input). The remaining energy is coming from the heat of the water. the hotter the water the less electric energy I need for splitting the water. The extreme side to this is the thermolysis of water, where the water splits due to the high temperature without any electricity involved at all.
So as Puharich himself stated, his process is an extremely efficient electric electrolysis process, so that with the help of the additional heat energy one is able to get above 100% in relation to electric input at room temperature. I think he mentioned something like 110 or 120%, don't know exactly anymore.
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All my research has lead me to the conclusion that Stan was doing the same as Puharich, except Stan refined the method and made it produce a lot more gas output.
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quote:
I was lying in bed and asked myself: Why did he isolate the circuit. There must be a reason for this. The only reason I could get was, that the overall potential might change during a Ton-Gating sequence, but this you could only measure if you don't make any earth connection with your scope to the cell.
I came upon another functional Hypotheses:
Actually this one, I already had a long time ago, but threw it away as I just couldn't image how one could make the corresponding circuit (if it is doable at all), but it now resurfaced. It is interesting to note that in an electrolysis process the splitting of the water molecule needs a different amount of energy at the 2 electrodes. The final reaction at the cathode (Hydrogen production) needs almost no potential and is therefore actually very "cheap" to produce. But the anode-potential is the real bugger, the oxygen atom in the final OH- molecule just wont let go the last hydrogen atom. There a lot of energy is wasted. This is why in optimizing conventional electrolysis processes, one focuses a lot on minimizing this potential.
But what if one creates a process which just focuses on making an asymmetric electrolysis. Namely we just actively try to get a cathode reaction. But this would obviously result in a rise in potential of the water. And here's the problem. Usually if I still try to get even more cathode reaction, I need more and more voltage (which means more energy), as the water already has that voltage. But if there would be any way, that the actual circuit would also rise in potential together with the water bath, it would work. You would get very cheap hydrogen. But there surely would be a point, where the potential cannot be heightened anymore, due to losses to the environment (therefore with this process it would be extremely important to heavily insulate the WFC). When one then does finally Stop the process, the water potential would come down again, and the anode reaction could now take place (for free, as no energy is needed in this step). This could be the reason for gating.
But I don't think this is really a reasonable idea, as if it would be really possible to make such a circuit you would additionally easily be able to produce electricity out of it for free (at the final anode discharge). Strictly speaking this would be a charging of a capacitor with only a linear dependency to voltage, in relation to the actual energy in the capacitor itself which is square to the voltage. I wouldn't see where here the energy should come from, therefore I don't think it's a reasonable theory.
end quote
HI Kali
You are right about Your hypotheses. Stan also talked about water as source of electrical energy and calculated amount of electrons coming from wfc to 10 kw of electrical energy. I see it in one of stan's vid. ( new zeland meting vid )He was speaking exakly like You .You are on the right track keep going. sorry for my english
Thank andy
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@Tony:
As I see it the main differences between Puharich's circuit and Stan's is the diode, and the voltage (Puharich used very low voltages). Puharich does not use a diode for rectification. This is the very strange thing about Puharich's circuit, namely that he states, that the WFC starts to act like a diode if he connects it to his circuit and rectifies the applied AC-Waveform. The only idea I could have, why this rectification could take place would be the inhomogeneous E-Field in the WFC due to the tubular arrangement.
It would be interesting, if anyone was ever able to replicate this rectification by the WFC. For one thing could be interesting: If you somehow manage, that the WFC starts to act like a diode, then you could suddenly apply a very high voltage to the WFC in the blocking direction of the WFC "diode". In this way the water would suddenly see a very high E-field, but the current couldn't flow.
But my personal guess is, that this rectification only happens at very low voltages, as Puharich used. If the inhomogeneous E-Field is responsible for it, it could be, that the E-Field differences just make the final step if the anode-reaction-potential is reached or not. Which means, the anode reaction could take place at the inner tube wall, as there the E-Field is stronger, but not take place at the outside tubewall, as there the E-Field is smaller. If this is the way Puharich's rectification took place, it wouldn't be possible to use this principle to apply a short HV-burst.
BTW: At these low voltages (below the reaction potential) the WFC actually really acts like an almost perfect capacitor with a very high resistance. This is actually the basic principle how the low-voltage Super-Caps do work. Therefore it was probably very easy for Puharich to get a resonant circuit, as the WFC really just acted like a capacitor, and if the voltage just reached the critical reaction-potential it started to also act like a diode in one direction.
@Andy:
Actually I don't think the last hypothesis is really reasonable. But it was early in the morning ;D ...
Sorry again, to get that much Offtopic in this thread. I will again do the experiments with the "8xA circuit", but this time, with the AC waveform on resonance and not the Ton/Toff on resonance. But I will then start a new thread not to get anymore offtopic in here. Sorry!
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Kali'
The large humps are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac voltage from the vari-ac.Then the square wave pulses are the ones riding on top.The 120hz is fixed and is not adjustable.I'm not sure that you understand that part,based on your responces.
Only the pulses riding on top are adjustable.The large unipolar pulses never change.At some points when tuning this set up,you will get harmonics of the two signals where they will match.
ie: 120hz,240hz,480hz,960hz.....
Don
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I think that puharich was not over unity, yes he used his am amplitude modulated signal, and his device was the rectifier. but stan really got into the resonance in my view.
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@Tony:
As I see it the main differences between Puharich's circuit and Stan's is the diode, and the voltage (Puharich used very low voltages). Puharich does not use a diode for rectification. This is the very strange thing about Puharich's circuit, namely that he states, that the WFC starts to act like a diode if he connects it to his circuit and rectifies the applied AC-Waveform. The only idea I could have, why this rectification could take place would be the inhomogeneous E-Field in the WFC due to the tubular arrangement.
It would be interesting, if anyone was ever able to replicate this rectification by the WFC. For one thing could be interesting: If you somehow manage, that the WFC starts to act like a diode, then you could suddenly apply a very high voltage to the WFC in the blocking direction of the WFC "diode". In this way the water would suddenly see a very high E-field, but the current couldn't flow.
But my personal guess is, that this rectification only happens at very low voltages, as Puharich used. If the inhomogeneous E-Field is responsible for it, it could be, that the E-Field differences just make the final step if the anode-reaction-potential is reached or not. Which means, the anode reaction could take place at the inner tube wall, as there the E-Field is stronger, but not take place at the outside tubewall, as there the E-Field is smaller. If this is the way Puharich's rectification took place, it wouldn't be possible to use this principle to apply a short HV-burst.
BTW: At these low voltages (below the reaction potential) the WFC actually really acts like an almost perfect capacitor with a very high resistance. This is actually the basic principle how the low-voltage Super-Caps do work. Therefore it was probably very easy for Puharich to get a resonant circuit, as the WFC really just acted like a capacitor, and if the voltage just reached the critical reaction-potential it started to also act like a diode in one direction.
@Andy:
Actually I don't think the last hypothesis is really reasonable. But it was early in the morning ;D ...
Sorry again, to get that much Offtopic in this thread. I will again do the experiments with the "8xA circuit", but this time, with the AC waveform on resonance and not the Ton/Toff on resonance. But I will then start a new thread not to get anymore offtopic in here. Sorry!
Puharich did not use a diode because he used ground.
One side of the secondairy coil is grounded, so never ever ac on his device.
Go have a look at his patent.
Steve
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Speaking of WFC's acting like diodes, I have observed several of my cells taking on diode characteristics. Such as if I take my multimeter and set it to the "tone" test setting, it will only give a tone and conduct in one direction. I've also tested my cell with a diode tester and it acted just like a diode acts when being tested. Very strange stuff. I would like to see the avalanche effect occur at very low current ;-)
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One side of the secondairy coil is grounded, so never ever ac on his device.
Well, why should AC not be possible, if you ground one side??? Doesn't make sense to me? Would be nice, if you could explain a little farther what you mean. Take a any transformer and ground one wire. You will still have AC. The only difference would be, that now the overall potential is not floating anymore, but has a fixed reference potential.
I think Puharich even states himself somewhere, that the cell has rectifying capabilities. E.g. look at his Blood Patent. The circuit is very similar. And there he shows the equivalence circuit of the media, which is exactly as I would expect it to be: Namely a diode with a resistance in series parallel to a capacitor with a resistance. My guess would just be, that the behaviour is voltage dependent. E.g. for low voltages it is obviously a capacitor. For high voltages it is a resistor and in between probably acts like a diode, if the E-field is inhomogeneous. this is at least my current hypothesis.
@Don:
Thanks for the comment. As I looked again at the pic, I realized my mistake immediately. Let's blame this due to the fact, that it was very early in the morning, when I looked at it... ;D
The big ones definitely look like the rectified AC. But honestly, this pic arises more questions than it answers.
One thing is obvious. The frequency of the coils is definitely quite higher than the 120Hz of the rectified AC. This at least answers one question for me, for I was quite astonished how he could get such a low resonance frequency with just such a small coil, with not that much windings.
Did you make that PIC? It would be interesting if it was made really with just such a low voltage, or if a 10xprobe has been used.
All in all, this now really started my interest in this "8xA circuit". I will definitely now do some more experiments on it.
@Tony:
Hmm looks like I will have to do some experiments to the diode behaviour of the WFC. But one has to be very cautious in measuring a static condition with a multimeter, for a WFC acts also like a battery. And this can very much alter the measurement if you use low static voltages from a Multimeter. I think only a dynamic measurement could really definitely give the answer under what conditions a WFC starts to behave like a diode.
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Well, it seemed to me not ac anymore when you ground one side.
In my simulations, i see a change on the secondairy side.
I use a resistor and cap as cell in parallel.
Steve
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Kali you are right about the measuring. Static voltage can only be read by special connectionless multimeter... Thats why i'm going to mke my measurements in the university using their probes...
I think that what steve mean is that when the signal is in reference to ground, for say alternating but only from 0 to x volts you will have positive aways in one of the electrodes... (never cross an arbitrary ground)
I think but i'm not sure that puharich was not over unity i cannot say that i'm sorry... he might have done exactly what meyer said but with a different input of energy... so legitimated
I would like to know Tony how is your test going..
BR
Sebosfact
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If you watch Puharich's video he says that his system is around 90% or so efficient and by the time everything is put into place on a car of something like that, that the over all systems efficiency will drop to around 70% or so.
Testing has been going pretty good. I just finished wrapping the 6-1 VIC coil, so hopefully I will be doing some testing with that this weekend.
Some stuff I've been looking at for awhile about Stan's coils is that the voltages from each choke, L1 & l2, are opposite to each other like say +1kv and -1kv. With this being said the currents will be 180 degrees out of phase. These out of phase currents are being sent to the same load so therefore the total current will be the difference of the two. for example, L1 = +1kv @ 200mA and L2 = -1kv @ 210mA, the current & voltage totals will be 2kv @ 10mA. The current difference would be to current leakage. This would explain how Stan was able to allow high voltages at very low currents in a "dead short" condition. It would also explain why Stan wrapped the chokes bifilar in the 6-1 coil to reduce the current leakage. This is just my thoughts and theories on what Stan was doing. What do you guys think?
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Kali,
I didn't take that picture but I was there when it was taken.I also wasn't doing the adjusting of it either.At the low voltage you see in the picture of the scope shot,it looks the same way at 80 volts across the cell.Those 120 hz pulses just grow with voltage increase.It would be very hard to see any resonance with this set up.The only resonance you might get will be with the higher frequencies,and since their riding on top of the 120 hz,I don't know what they would look like.
Don
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Tony i highly recommend to you reading all my last posts.
And possibly the all new thread too.
You are in the right way but you are not yet there. Yes the currents will go in opposite directions. The thing is that both cols will have a positive on its extremity going to the water. Therefore the voltage between the tubes is actually not very high initially but will be very high in relation to the ground reference. The thing is that the resonating coil, having impedance will restrict the current making the (plastic) capacitor to get charged, than after the pulse ends the plastic discharge into the water thru the coil generating the second pulse. When this second pulse happens the polarity changes and the " negative tube than become negative. And thats why the current get 180° out of phase.
The capacitor have an negative impedance therefore it charges instead of letting the current flow thru the coil.
you see?
Basically he puts two positives inside the water but than one of the positives flips and become negative!
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would yall give us a referance to where the current should be 180 out of phase ? All i can remember Stan saying was 90.
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I mean 180° cause the pulse frequency will double thus i'm assuming that the voltage pulse will be in counter phases, however in the resonant part of the thing actually is 90°. Just like a normal inductor capacitor circuit.
180° is the angle of the electrode polarity flip in relation to the pulse frequency.
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Testing has been going pretty good. I just finished wrapping the 6-1 VIC coil, so hopefully I will be doing some testing with that this weekend.
Do you use SS wire for the 6-1 coil?
Can you post a pic of your 6-1 :) ?
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First about the WFC, and it's diode capabilities:
I thought it is due to an inhomogeneous E-Field. I realized after some experiments this is not the case. I realized it is due to the Helmholtz-Layer! And if you do some experiments you will realize how extremely it reacts as a diode!!! Absolutely no current in the other direction. And if you think about it, you realize it is even quite logical, it is btw extremely similar to the PN-junction of a conventional diode, but just with ions.
Ha, as I was out in the woods with my bike, I always thought about the scope pic Don sent. I always thought, this output just doesn't make sense, if it's wired like that, and then I finally realized. that the wiring in the pic of the "8xA circuit" is probably wrong.
And as I thought about it, together with the diode fact above, I realized how it could work. And if it is like that, then both Don and I were right and wrong. I was right, when I presumed that the later VIC is just an extension of the "8xA circuit", but was wrong, when thinking that the wiring was like in the pic.
I don't know, if it is really like I think it is, but it would make perfect sense. It would easily explain all the following points:
* it explains why on some WFCs a VIC with resistive wire in the choke coils is needed, and for others not. And it would absolutely not work just to add a resistor in the circuit instead of the resistive wire!
* It is said, that it was seen that Stan introduced some white powder in the cell, which he demonstrated for the experts in the court case. And this would perfectly made sense. It explains why the cells for the older circuits (8XA) need tap water or even sometimes some electrolyte in it (depending on the tap water).
* It easily explains why the 8XA circuit needs an adjustable WFC plate distance. But not to alter the capacitance...
* It explains why distilled water would work best, but only with the VIC. It wouldn't work with the earlier circuits.
* it explains why he could change the voltage of the primary in the VIC. I always thought this is strange, as quite some circuitry is need for this and it wastes quite some electrical energy. As if you would like to change the amount of gas produced you would just switch it on and off with a certain duty cycle, so why change the amplitude?. But to be able to change this primary voltage amplitude is according to this theory an absolute must, for the VIC circuit to work correctly to split the water.
Final thought: It would split the water just with an E-field (just as Stan said), and really almost no current would flow in the circuitry. There surely wouldn't be any substantial conventional electrolysis happening...
Looks like I will have something to test this weekend...
Maybe there's something behind this idea, or not. I will see. Probably it's just another theory going down the grave...
@ sebosfato: How does your 6-1 coil look like? Here's a pic of mine:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6897/my61.jpg)
Edit:
Some tests later...
I realized that the faster waveform you see overlayed actually is the SCR switching frequency. IMHO it is only able to switch there, because the coils are resonating (an SCR can only switch off, if there's no current flowing). This actually means, it can be, that the actual original "8xA circuit", could be really wired like that, and not differently.
@sebosfato:
Up until know, I also always thought, that the two choke coils do have the same polarity to the cell, as this would be IMHO the only solution how you can get high voltages on the bifilars without destroying their insulation. But as Don described, he is sure this wasn't the case. And as can be seen in the 5-coil-vic he surely didn't always wind them bifilar.
Actually for me, both versions do make sense. But now, as I have now my theory, I know what kind of signal I would like to get (low voltage DC on the cell followed by a very short HV negative pulse). So first I will replicate the 8xA and see which coil wiring gives the pic as made by Don and from there on continue...
It is really annoying. To get this waveform would be such easy if there would be any FET which could withstand several KV (just one coil parallel to the WFC). But at about 1'500V is the upper limit for electric switches. If you want more, you need quite a complicated and expensive circuitry with stacked FETs. So IMHO we need a circuit which gets this waveform, in quite an easy way.
BTW: If you wire them with the same polarity to the cell, you actually get a circuit which works exactly as Dr Stiffler's electrolyser.
I realized that just by thinking about or simulating it, you can't get too far, as he obviously needed some parasitic values for the resonance of the coils, and here is the big question, which ones, to be able to really make the correct schemata of the real circuit. My experiments so far tend to show, that the distributed capacitance within the coils themselves is probably the major factor. It is IMHO definitively not the capacity of the WFC. And it is IMHO also not the capacitance between the choke coils, therefore it is not needed that they have to be wound bifilar. They just need to have exactly the same properties (L, R and C), so that they do have the same frequency and voltage (and wiring them bifilar is the easiest way of getting there). But it wouldn't be good to have a high coil capacity, as in a resonating circuit, the voltage gets higher the smaller the capacity. How can you make the capacity smaller? By wiring the coils in sections, like in the 6-1 coil. Surely this wiring in sections is also perfect for insulation purposes, so you get 2 for one...
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I was thinking about something else today with the VIC setup. What if the cell itself doesn't really play much of a role in the setup? What I mean by this is that maybe the cell just acts a resistive load in the circuit and the resonance that takes place in only between the chokes. This is something I noticed when I was testing my setup and when I got resonance I could disconnect my cell from the chokes and replace it with a larger plate cell with a higher capacitance (10.8nF) and it would still resonant at the same frequency as the smaller cell (1.6nF).
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Well, this is what as I said I also already discovered. The WFC capacitance is IMHO completely neglectable in relation to the resonance. It also wouldn't make sense in relation to the actual circuit, due to the diode. It would only make sense if the capacitance in between the bifilars would be important. But as I already yesterday wrote this is IMHO not the case, and as the 5-VIC-COIL shows, this is obviously not the case. This is why I wrote, that I think only the distributed (parasitic) capacitance of every coil itself is important.
First I thought that the capacity of the WFC in relation to the environment is important (single terminal capacity, like the topload of a tesla coil), but this capacity would be very small. And as experiments have shown is completely neglectable. The parasitic capacities of the coils are way much larger.
But hey, we won't find out, 'til we get a lotta gas for (almost) nothing... ;)
But to mention is, that IMHO the capacity of the WFC does play an important role, but not in the resonance part. It is IMHO important that the capacity gets charged, so that a thick ion layer can develop at the anode. Only then, the "diode" behaviour can occur. ANd this capacitance is btw quite big. Way much larger than what you get, if you look at the capacitor as a normal capacitor (2 electrode at distance d with the dielectric water in it). This is, because the WFC will behave like a super capacitor (EDLC=Electric Double Layer Capacitor).
BTW: Interestingly in his later Memo, he even writes in the text itself, that the important resonance capacity is this distributed capacity. E.g.:
While, the distributed capacitance (Cda xxx Cdn) of each coil experiencing
inductance coupling (619) elevates applied voltage level (Vn) to a higher voltage amplitude
(increasing voltage intensity)
IMHO this is the simple description of a coil resonance with it's own L and C.
Or from his "patent validation report":
Beyond amp restricting characteristics of said Amp Inhibiting Circuit, the spiral-wrapped coils being paired together, also, causes voltage level enhancement beyond applied voltage input since the "Distributed Capacitance"/"Distributed Inductance" of said bifilar wrapped coils encourages the compounding effect (increasing magnetic field-strength during each pulsing cycle) of electromagnetic field-strength when applied Pulse-voltage Frequency passes though the positive energized Resonant Charging choke.
BTW: in this "patent validation report" he also writes, that the VIC is actually nothing but an extension of the "8xA circuit" with an additional Step-Up transformer...
This would explain why he first just used the "Amp Inhibiting Circuit". Then later (see patents) he used a step-up transformer on a separate core, and finally he wrapped alltogether on one core (VIC).
IMHO if the coils are wrapped with the same orientation (different polarity to the WFC), then the secondary delivers the DC necessary to charge the WFC capacity and the coils are responsible for short HV neg pulse to split the water.
Or if the coils are wrapped with the same polarity to the WFC, then the secondary would probably be responsible for the splitting and the bifilars are responsible for developing a thick ion layer, with the Dr. Stiffler principle.
But, I think I write and theorize again too much...Let's go again experimenting. A hole weekend is awaiting ;D
Unfortunately I cannot find my SCRs (I know, I have once bought some)...gee, my chaos...
Edit2:
I just realized why the scope pic of Don didn't make any sense to me: It is upside down. If you look at the left, you see, where the reference potential is. Now, the waveform does make sense...
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Man The capacitance and coupling of the chokes is important cause when in resonance, the tuned coil will induce the double frequency pulse in the secondary and the choke so they must have a good coupling, thats why a closed loop core.
I made my vic in such a way that i can charge the coupling changing the distance between the laminations. I described it in my thread...
The double layer is just a name, is the same thing we were talking about related to separation of the ions by the electric fields..
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Just for better understanding. This is the scope pic in the way one usually looks at it. The red line is zero reference.
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3618/dsc0107modified.jpg)
As you can see, it makes much more sense like that. As I again looked at the "8xA circuit" I realized that he didn't switch the gate as one usually does. This is very clever. As in his way, the SCR switches exactly synchronous with the resonating coils, you only have to do the gating.
the tuned coil will induce the double frequency pulse in the secondary and the choke so they must have a good coupling
I actually don't quite get, what you exactly mean here. From where should the secondary get a second pulse?
IMHO the resonant chokes themselves will do a pulsing. Therefore strictly speaking it would IMHO not be necessary to have the secondary and the chokes on the same core. But it is certainly a big advantage if you do, as like that you will be able to directly push the chokes with the primary, and can so transfer them much more energy every cycle (which will result in much higher voltages), than just by charging their capacity every cycle, like you do if you have them separate.
But as I said, everybody is welcome for his theory...The final outcome is what's important... ;D
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Are you all using resistive wire?
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The coils must be in the same core cause they will together cause the frequency doubling that meyer talked about, at the resonant frequency the tuned coil tx5 as he always talked about it, will perform the amp restriction by letting the voltage pulse to charge the cell as the coil has a inductive reactance the charge wants first to charge the capacitor of the resonant tank, reason is capacitive reactance witch is negative so current leads voltage. ...
So when the pulse ends the charge accumulated in the cell will discharge thru tx5 so tx5 become a kind of primary that will induce another pulse in the cell restricting the amp. This is the moment where the polarity will flip in the negative voltage zone.
I have just finished the pulsing circuit and i'm finishing the assembly of the vic in few hours i hope to make it to work.
I don't know why but still not very stable the pulsing circuit but may work. I have the gated pulse trains signal... now i just need to find the inductance of my coil and estimate the resonant frequency to adjust the pulsing circuit. The problem is that i don't have a frequency meter anymore its broken (was from the multimeter) while i was trying to fix the multimeter it don't show the numbers anymore.
Hum maybe i'm going to ask my neighbor if he have one to lend me.
really shitty doing this with no equip but the lrc meter will be all that i will use.. and the sound card scope.-
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Are you all using resistive wire?
No i'm not, i do have some resistive wire but is bare and so bit hard to wind. At this moment i really think is not needed... But could be an improvement for the future..
Actually the coils must be coupled within them but does not actually need to be coupled with the transformer, but actually i think that is better... thats why he put all them in the vic..
I think that a lose coupling between the primary and the resonant coil is more desirable and thats why i think the chokes are closer in his figs ...
In this patent of the vic tx5... you actually see very clearly that he shows the insulation around the cell and the wires going into the insulation being connected to the cell only after the insulation. Than you see the ground connection of the tuned coil. And think the cell must be placed somewhere close contact to the ground and it will already form the resonant cavity-"!!!!!
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So when the pulse ends the charge accumulated in the cell will discharge thru tx5 so tx5 become a kind of primary that will induce another pulse in the cell restricting the amp.
This sounds a very strange theory to me, as when you do not put anymore externally some energy in it. The core will simply try to get rid of the field, and as all are on the same core, one coil cannot act as a primary for another, for all are just on the same core which is getting rid of his field. Finally this will result in having a completely zero field, but a lot of charged capacitances on the core, which will now again discharge, and there, they act again like a primary which will then again induce a current in the opposite direction (a resonant circuit).
But yes, if you mean, that the stray inductances of the bifilars which are not shared by the secondary could act as a primary, then I understand waht you mean. But then they would have different resonance frequencies. Is that what you mean?
Edit:
Ah now I see, you mean the WFC capacity is discharging again. But this still is IMHO exactly the same situation, just with an external capacity. Did you already try a simulation of your idea?
really shitty doing this with no equip but the lrc meter will be all that i will use.. and the sound card scope.-
Gee, I admire your efforts at these conditions. I have all I need: Scopes, Frequency Generator, etc. As this is needed for part of my profession...
About the resistive wire:
I made my 6-1 coil with SS chokes. But the usual testing cores are just copper. IMHO the resistive wire is only needed in special conditions, namely when the WFC has a very high resistance (is very small), like e.g. for the injectors. Or the SS wire is also handy for situations where you don't have a core, as the SS will act like a core. But this is just my current opinion.
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Hi kalli nice to know you work with this..
I'm saying that the tx5 coil form a resonant tank with the cell capacitance in relation to ground. BEing the cell made of insulating material, if its placed in the yard, it will form a capacitance... If you connect the point where secondary and tx5 coils converge to the ground you form a resonant tank. Than being this part of a transformer that is being pulsed with 50% square wave, and this coil having its north with the same orientation of the secondary and the other coil so being positive when the others are positive will provide that when the pulse ends the capacitance will discharge thru this coil letting it to act like a primary during the pulse off. This will create another pulse of the same polarity in the secondary and the positive choke. This is the frequency doubling. During the pulse on the cell charge during the pulse off it discharges but doing so it not only induce the second pulse in the secondary but also ends by flipping the polarity of the "negative" electrode allowing a gigantic field with no current and again at the same time of course inducing the second pulse in the secondary diode choke ....
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Kali,
the scope shot is correct the way it was.The unipolar pulses are the large humps,and the high frequencies are riding ontop of it,because both signals are meshed together.If you turn off the high frequencies,all you will see are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac coming out of the vari-ac.
sebosfato,
with all the different ways I've hooked up coils,I have nevr once seen the double pulses.I can find resonance with any set of coils and cell,but still have never seen the frequency doubling effect that Stan talks about.
The frequency doubling Stan talks about, is what he is trying to replicate from the 8xa circuit.The rectified ac from the vari-ac.
Don
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When you fresearch Tesla's resonant charging circuit, you will see a doubling of frequency, or pulses.
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html
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Kali,
the scope shot is correct the way it was.The unipolar pulses are the large humps,and the high frequencies are riding ontop of it,because both signals are meshed together.
I think you don't understand what I mean. It is obviously like I said, as the scope is indicating at the left side it's reference potential. Surely your pic is correct, how could it not be, one ist just not used to the fact, that the zero potential is just somewhere and not in the middle. And it is perhaps a bit unusual to see the voltage waveform in reverse. these 2 things I corrected just visually. It remains the same scope shot.
If you turn off the high frequencies,all you will see are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac coming out of the vari-ac.
Yes, if you turn off the gating, you will only see the rectified AC. But the gating pulses on the SCR are IMHO not the pulses you see additionally in the pic. But the pulses you can adjust simply either allow these SCR-pulses to happen or not. So the resonance voltage want's to switch the SCR on and off, but the gating is needed to allow this to happen or not.
This would at least be my current opinion. But I'm at replicating the circuit, so we'll see.
@Sebastof:
Now I start to understand what you mean.
It is funny. Already since a long time ago, I had almost the same idea, how the circuit worked. Just until Don trashed my idea, by saying he's sure it wasn't connected like that. But the other variant also makes sense, just in another way.
I got this idea when I first started my research on Stan and wrote my "History of the VIC" back at waterfuelcell.org.
At these times not so much facts were known as now, as in the meantime people like Don could see the real stuff.
Back then I came to the conclusion as you, that the bifilars have to be wired with the same polarity to the WFC.
At that time my thought was, that if you wanna have a high voltage, and if you wire them bifilar, you simply cannot have a high voltage in between the coils. It would just rupture your isolation.
As you I came to the conclusion, that the resonant chokes are just a tank circuit with the WFC, exactly like a Tesla coil.
If you want to go further in this direction, I can tell you some things I already discovered. The capacity of the WFC to ground is so small, in relation to the capacity of the coil, that it is almost completely neglectable. Sure you would still need a Delrin coating around the WFC, either way, as a high voltage is on it. And you would surely want to have an earthed metal around it, for without it, even after 2cm of delrin, you would have quite some static field outside without it.
One question for me, like you now, was: Should the primary be loosely coupled or not to the resonant chokes. As you can see from the SSTCs, if you are able to feed every cycle power into the coil, and if your isolation allows it, it is better to make the coupling as tight as possible. On the other hand, you don't additionally charge the capacity every time with an additionally secondary on a normal SSTC. The problem is certainly your primary driver. Namely how much voltage can it withstand. I think therefore Stand introduced the freewheeling diode in his patent driving circuit. Surely the diode will always eat up some energy, on the other hand it allows the voltage to go higher than the Transistor could withstand, and as it seems, Stans transistors could not withstand a lot of voltage. But the freewheeling loss would still be quite significant and definitely limit your Q-factor to quite a low value. But on ther other hand, I don't think you will get a high Q with such a coil arrangement anyway.
Therefore it could make sense to have a loose coupling between the chokes and the primary. But how can you achieve this, when you have a core? By using SS wire. This will drastically increase the seen "stray inductance" (uncoupled inductance).
Therefore I wound my SS chokes on the outside of the 6-1 coil, as there it would be outside the primary field. Another point, why I thought the chokes were on the outside was, that I thought, that it would be almost impossible to isolate them from the primary, if they were on the inside. And as the chokes are connected to the WFC, they should develop a very high voltage.
Well, let's say, quite some things changed since a few days...Always on the move...Again thanks to Don to share these pics and info with all of us. This is certainly not something everybody would have done!
When you fresearch Tesla's resonant charging circuit, you will see a doubling of frequency, or pulses.
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html
Actually this is one of my hate sites (no offense), when it goes about Stan. Surely everything is correct what Richie says, but it seems most people do not understand what he is explaining. I wouldn't call it a DC-resonance, as it is IMHO simply not a resonance, but rather a correct timing, but on the Tesla-sites this naming has become standard, so be it. But this is just a matter of definition. It simply says, that by correct timing you can double your DC voltage output without any diode.
On the site he also states, that by introducing the diode, you actually get rid off all these timing problems. Nothing is there anymore of these problems. So, as Stan used a diode, you can forget about it, as having any timing relevance whatsoever. Or simply said: By introducing the diode, it is not a "DC resonant" circuit anymore.
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Also, the VIC wil only output spikes, because the input is a blockpulse, induced emf = - dPhi/dt (edit minus actually), thus a spike will occur on the rising and falling edge, during high state, the output of the VIC is low.
Some VIC illustrations show a blockpulse on the input, which induces spikes.
Others show pulses with a rounded top, which induces the same signal on the output.
Please correct me if i'm wrong, it's been a while.
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The very short impulses you see when switching in transformers occurs, is usually due to the stray inductances. These are the more extreme, the steeper your dv/dt is. E.g. they occur most badly on rectangular waveforms. Usually you use small snubber circuits to get rid of them, so that they are not able to destroy your parts.
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I also thought this recently but is not alan, The transformer must not work in the kick back mode but normal transformer mode. I think.
Meyer gave us calculations for common transformers and not even one kickback calculation. this reinforce what i feel now.
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Actually the scope shot is up side down. The reason for this is because of what you are referencing the signal to. I've tested this with my scope and I've had the same thing happen, where my image would be opposite to what it actually is. if you look at the image below you'll see that this is correct.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/8XA_Scope_Shot_from_Don.PNG)
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@Tony: Just a little addition. The scope shot you show is wrong in one relation, because you didn't turn the shot upside down, but turned it 180° so the time on your shot is backwards running! Just to mention the difference to my corrected scope shot.
@sebosfato: BTW. What kind of pulsing circuitry are you using. The NE555 Stuff? I would recommend you do it like I did, e.g. I just took a small Microcontroller plugged some VFD to it and soldered a small joystick on it. Finished. Very easy to adjust and to build, and the best part is, the uC already has a comparator on it for easy pickup-coil sensing and self-adjusting. Maybe you can do something similar for yourself.
BTW, when we are just talking about this: When you look at the patent circuit, you see how he designed the circuit, and from this you can definitely say, it is not in a flyback configuration.
Edit: Here's a pic of my driver (on the right side is the coil driver circuit): (as you can see, I'm not a friend of nice packaging ;D )
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1231/driverp.jpg)
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Cool, what microcontroller ar you using and how do you vary the values? Potmeters or via telnet?
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@Tony: Just a little addition. The scope shot you show is wrong in one relation, because you didn't turn the shot upside down, but turned it 180° so the time on your shot is backwards running! Just to mention the difference to my corrected scope shot.
@sebosfato: BTW. What kind of pulsing circuitry are you using. The NE555 Stuff? I would recommend you do it like I did, e.g. I just took a small Microcontroller plugged some VFD to it and soldered a small joystick on it. Finished. Very easy to adjust and to build, and the best part is, the uC already has a comparator on it for easy pickup-coil sensing and self-adjusting. Maybe you can do something similar for yourself.
BTW, when we are just talking about this: When you look at the patent circuit, you see how he designed the circuit, and from this you can definitely say, it is not in a flyback configuration.
Edit: Here's a pic of my driver (on the right side is the coil driver circuit): (as you can see, I'm not a friend of nice packaging ;D )
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1231/driverp.jpg)
Nice uC and driver you have Kali_ma_Amar!
I'm using a STM32 (cortex-m3) uC for PULSE and GATE signal generation. For the feedback and scanner I'm using also Stan his PLL circuit.
I'm very interested if you would share your schematics of your boards.
I'm using a MOSFET driver but want it to swap it to transistor.
br,
Webmug
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I just realized, that I shouldn't have posted this pic in here. It now gets way too offtopic. Sorry for that.
Just in short. To answer the questions, so that discussions about the VIC can continue.
For big projects I also use the cortex chips (LPCs). But this application needs no CPU power, but a good interface chip (which can drive I/Os). For these I always take the AVRs. To interact with the menu (change values, select mode, etc.), there's an analog joystick soldered on the board.
@Webmug: Why do you wanna change to a transistor design? This application is THE application for FETs (hard switching on and off). Doesn't make absolutely no sense to me, to use transistors. Surely in Stans time, good PowerFETs were not yet available. I just used a good PowerFET together with the usual circuitry (IXDD414 for driving, Z-Diode at the gate and Transil-Diode over the FET, and surely the diode in series with the FET (as in Stans circuit) not to limit resonance). If you work with a low 12V voltage like Stan, then IMHO a transistor would just be a waste of additional energy compared to a good FET. Unfortunately the series-diode is also a big waste but I wouldn't know how to do it otherwise.
For the feedback and scanner I'm using also Stan his PLL circuit.
Why that? If you have a uC, the uC can easily do the PLL stuff. The frequencies used here are so low , that a uC has surely no problems with that. And you can lock-in much faster in SW. For higher frequencies (>50-100KHz) like used in the SSTCs, the usual PLL circuit, as Stan used is needed, but at <50KHz I would surely just do it in SW.
Back to the VIC. On saturday I replicated the 8xA circuit (I finally found my SCRs ;D ). But the results I got puzzle me even more...I really think understanding the functioning of the 8xA circuit, what the coils really exactly do here and how they interact with the SCR and the pulsing, is one major key in understanding the whole VIC.
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@Dynodon:
Actually, if, as you said, the chokes are connected with different potential to the cell, there is IMHO only one possible way of wiring. You said, all coils do have the same orientation. But I'm not sure, if we mean the same. Here an example from a patent:
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3482/patviccircuitwobsmall.jpg)
Is this the way, the 5-VIC-Coil was wired? As you can see all coils are wound counter-clockwise. And are then connected "in series". Now the question to Don (and only to him): According to your understanding, are the coils in the pic all connected with the same orientation or not?
I would be really grateful for an answer. As the correct wiring is certainly the most important factor, for a replication.
Additional question: The side, where the diode was, was connected to which tube of the WFC. The outer or the inner? Could you see that on the originals?
Edit:
Addtion: I always see new pics pop up every now and then. Don't you wanna make a DVD with all the pics you made of Stans stuff together with the videos made (in good quality) and sell it? I for sure would buy it.
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I think the inner tube must be the resonant one.
Kalli where did you took this fig from?
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This is the only pic in which the current from secondary to chokes are countered by induced emf in the 2 chokes, induced by the primary's magnetic field.
In other pics this only happens on the second negative resonant choke.
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BIG SMILE!
If the 8xA is connected as I think, then the "Amp inhibiting effect" is very strong. 10 volts as circuit input voltage, the coils resonating at +/- 5 volts (not much I know, but limited by the input voltage), but now ask me, what the measured DC input current was after the diode...5uA??!!??yes 5 Microampères not Milliampères. As soon as my usual meter just displayed 0.0mA I looked for my special one which measures only from 0 to 100uA. And then I adjusted the frequency until I just got down to 5uA. Then my idea was immediately:
There must be some AC capacitively fed in over the diode, otherwise I just cannot explain this. I mounted a shunt resistor in between. First very low ohmic...nothing...then I increased until I could see some very short millivolt peaks with a 1kOhm shunt. And the measured voltage and the picture actually shows no capacitive feed. It also shows such a low DC current and no AC!!??!!
I've already seen a lot, but from a pure electrical engineer point of view, I just cannot explain this!!??!! What's going on. I just cannot believe, that the losses in the core are that small (but it's the only explanation), so what's going on? But still the bigger question I have is: What the he** is actually resonating here???
Actually I'm currently really speechless and this doesn't happen often to me ;D ;D
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I experimented with the 8xa last summer, videos on youtube, and will be doing so again in the future, now I have a scope and some more ideas, Kali, would you like to get yourself a projects section and share a few things about your 8xa? I'd like to learn from your experiences here too
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@Kali
Do you think the reason for the low current measure is because you haven't reached the threshold voltage or current to turn the SCR on?
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hello kali, if you make a simple diagram of what you are doing i could try help understand what is happening.. from your description i don't know exactly what are you measuring or doing...
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@Tony: With my current experiments I currently don't use the SCR switching logic, I feed directly the waveform from a FG. So I'm testing just Stan's "Amp Inhibiting circuit".
As I again thought about the whole thing, I realized, that the only explanation is really, that the core losses are that low, which really is strange to me. But what's even stranger is the fact, that although the coils resonate at AC with the WFC in between, the WFC has only DC on it. IMHO this can only be explained by the huge capacity (supercapacitor) of the WFC compared to the small distributed capacity.
IMCHO (in my current humble opinion) I think that there are only 2 wirings which would make sense. One is a tank circuit with only the second choke (both chokes same polarity to the cell), the other is both coils just resonating in unisono together (different polarity to the cell). And especially for the second variant I would be very very interested on Don's answer on my question a page ago about the orientation. I would be really grateful to you Don, if you can answer this question.
EDIT:
While biking I realized why I needed just such a low current. Not because the loss percentage was so low, but because the oscillating energy is so low. The capacities are so small, that there's almost no energy oscillating. Therefore the needed input power is extremely low. This actually explains why Stan could us a core with such a small core area without saturating it. Although the energy say at 1000 volts will be 10'000 times more, it is still small, as the expected needed input current with the same oscillator would be then around 50mA.
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@Kali
Do you think the reason for the low current measure is because you haven't reached the threshold voltage or current to turn the SCR on?
seems like he's playin with figure AA of the evaluation report ???
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This 3-23 vic, apparently uses 25 mA out of resonance, and then drops down to 1-2 mA, so not much power being sent through the core. Voltage is unknown, but from the control patent, a guess might be around 650 volts, with mentions of 2000 volts and 5000 volts...
When you say Don you mean Dynodon right? I'f you're looking for me say Donald :)
Also if you are not using an SCR with this 8xa system you will get a different response, because a SCR is like two transistors in one, changes the interaction, to what end, is up for research. He did switch to a transistor in later systems, but there are also other fundamental changes to accompany that transformation.
Stan also mentions the water molecule as a micro capacitor, and when it is stretched, the dielectric properties increase, because if the lone pair electrons on the oxygen are father away from the hydrogen atoms then the dipole increases. This may be related to the capacitor effect you are referring too.
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This 3-23 vic, apparently uses 25 mA out of resonance, and then drops down to 1-2 mA, so not much power being sent through the core. Voltage is unknown, but from the control patent, a guess might be around 650 volts, with mentions of 2000 volts and 5000 volts...
One thing is for sure, if you look at the 5-coil-vic picture. It certainly didn't develop a very high voltage. I would say, at most about 2-3kV (which would match the values indicated in the patent for this kind of WFC). Why? If you look at the connectors to the cell on the right side, you see that the isolation plastic distance washers are not very thick. If a higher voltage would develop, there would be a spark to the casing. You would also get heavy corona discharges at higher voltages with these connectors. This is very different from the connectors of his 6-1 coil. There he really used High-Voltage connectors. And as far as i understood, these coils actually were meant to get in the xxkV regions.
This is actually IMHO quite interesting. As I have mentioned before, according to the Tay-Hee Han patent, you need at least an E-field of 20kv/mm for water to split just due to the E-field, and it is not possible to develop such a high e-field without having an isolator in between, because the water would arc through already before that. Therefore I personally think his effect is not really splitting the water molecules directly by an e-field, but rather separating the already available ions with an E-field and letting them again neutralize each other, whereas some will then build H2 and O2 instead of again H20. This would still be IMHO the only solution which would actually explain where the overunity splitting energy is coming from.
For ripping apart water directly just by an e-field is not an overunity reaction. Why? Because due to the splitting action, your e-field of the capacitor would loose energy. This is called losses in the dielectric of a capacitor.
So my all time changing guess ;D would be, that you really go to the point where you just would get a water arc. But due to the very small energy in the oscillator, the arc cannot really develop, but just the pre-arc-situation, where the ions get heavily separated. Then you immediately have to stop the oscillator (gating off), for otherwise you would again pump energy in it, and as soon as the ions didn't had time to neutralize, the ion conduction channel would still be there, and then you would get an arc, which would waste your energy just in heat. But just another lame hypotheses... I know...I should really stop with that and continue experimenting...
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Kali,
Sorry for the late reply,I was out all day yesterday and didn't get a chance to read theses post.
The VIC was wired just like the figure you posted of the coils.All of the coils were wound in the same direction,and put on the core in the same orientation as you travel around the core.They were wired just like the figure as well.So yes that figure is exactly the same as the VIC was wired and layed out.
The blocking diode goes to the positive choke and always goes to the positive tube (outside tube).
The negative isolated ground wasn't hooked to any ground either.
I haven't though about putting anything together for sale.But as we go along I will keep adding to the info as I feel comfortable releasing.
Don
Don
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Thank you very very very much!!!!
Although I already guessed that answer!
Actually I would have bet my left arm and right leg, that you would answer that!
You're obviously no electrical engineer (no offense), just like Stan you did make the same mistake! Stan also indicated the orientation wrong in this picture. For in this picture the two choke coils do not have the same orientation as the secondary! Why? Because they are on the other side of the core and therefore have the magnetic field going in the opposite direction!
Here again the pic, but this time with the orientation points as in the original patent (I erased them in the pic before, not to influence you):
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3761/patviccircuitcorrecteds.jpg)
Here you can see, that Stan made exactly the same mistake, namely he put the orientation points on the choke coils in the wrong direction. I added in red the correct orientation points according to the picture.
I thought the same. If the chokes do have different polarities to the cell, this wiring is the only one which does make sense. Now I'm happy.
Again: Thank you very very very much, really!
So actually it is now obvious that the VIC is really just an extension of the early "8XA circuit". For if you don't wire the coils as in the 8xA pic, but the other way around (like I did and as above in the patent circuit) you will have exactly this situation like in the VIC. And just the choke coils alone ("Amp Inhibiting circuit") already resonate wonderfully, and surely inhibit any current except for oscillation losses.
So Stans problem after the 8XA was to get higher input voltages, as the 8XA is limited in the oscillation voltage by the input voltage. So it seems like he first used a separate forward converter for the step up (as indicated in the patent with a small toroid core). But this still limits the voltage by the input voltage (just stepped up).Surely you could let the forward converter resonate to get higher voltages, but it would be very difficult to adjust the resonance frequency of the forward converter with that of the choke coils. But if you mount them on the same core, then the voltage can increase and increase (limited by your Q-factor) and you only have to hit one resonance frequency.
BTW: I just measured the "Amp Inhibiting circuit" through, while resonating on the WFC. An it's really like in every RLC. You see the wonderful 90° shift of voltage vs. current. When the voltage on the coils is high, no current is flowing through the WFC. When the voltage is zero, most current is flowing through the WFC.
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Don't really think that the representation is wrong, nor in the 3-23 vic nor the patent nor this new pic you came up with... they all show the tuned coil being field subtractive with the secondary and other choke being field adding with the secondary... There are some that are represented wrong like fig 7_1 Vic impedance network, here he shows the north of the coils all being adding fields... also in the sync pulse, even if there actually the amp inhibiting coil has the opposing field again...
Is strange that there was no connection from the bottom of the tuned choke to the electrical insulated housing... however, who knows---
Anyway
Thanks a lot Don for pointing this.
Br
Fabio
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Kali, yes the red dots you applied are the correct way.Thats just how all my testing of coils ended up,that gave me the highest output of voltage.I tried arranging the coils in every configuration possible,but that arrangement always gave the highest voltage output.
Stan showed several different drawings with different coil arrangements,so one of them was bound to be right.
Don
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It really does make sense now.
Especially interesting are Stans highlightings and notes on the Graneau experiments. There it was noted, that the current density was the all important factor if a bang shall occur. Not the voltage and not the overall current. Only the current density. But how can you get a high current density on the WFC, without having to apply a high voltage at the same time, which will simply arc over and bang (like in the Graneau experiments). As I now measured, it is obvious. You actually really are able to have exactly this situation. No voltage on the coils, but all the current flowing through the WFC. Surely, if the current is high and the WFC capacitance discharged, I would certainly guess that you would then see the voltage drop according to the resistance.
I will make a scope shot, to show this effect!
And here it is (fresh from my "Amp Inhibiting Circuit" on my WFC with tap water):
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/690/coilvoltagevswfccurrent.gif)
The yellow one is the voltage of a coil, the blue is the current through the WFC. I had to add quite a resistance in the circuit to measure it (shunt), this distorted a bit the current waveform. But the effect is still clearly visible. When the coil voltage is highest (yellow), the current through the WFC is zero (blue). When the coil voltage is zero (yellow), the current through the WFC is at it's max (blue)
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Looking forward to scopeshots.
So the current induced in the chokes do counter the current from the secondary?
Kali, how did you obtain your SS wire? Can you miss some?
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So the current induced in the chokes do counter the current from the secondary?
This only looks like that on the first sight. But you have to remember the parasitic capacities. Therefore the current of the chokes can flow, no matter what the secondary does. The secondary can only help the resonant circuit, namely if its voltage is higher than the resonant voltage. Therefore it is so important, that the secondary will output a + on the diode side, when the resonant circuit will also have a + there. Then the secondary can charge the cap even more. If you would do it the other way round, you couldn't do that and would even discharge the resonant circuit. Therefore in this arrangement both of their flow will add (into the parasitic capacity) and not subtract. And due to the subtraction of voltages (not current), there won't be a big "resistive" current flow through the WFC, which would only waste power and then counteract the current flow as you indicated. Hmm, doesn't make really sense, does it? Well, let's try it later. I go back experimenting...
Kali, how did you obtain your SS wire? Can you miss some?
Actually I got my wire, quite some time ago, from a guy from Canada, back in the overunity forum. He called himself Dankie. Why do you need some? It's actually pretty expensive. I paid several hundred dollars...
For the normal WFC circuit it is obviously not needed...
Edit:
So back from some more testing, with a bit more input voltage. This time I used a separate core with a step up of 1:40 from 12V, which means about 500 volts on the coils.
Now I realized something, that I already saw before at 10volts, but was not certain what it was. Now, I realized what it was:
During the process the resonant frequency really changes all the time. Sometimes it does make some real jumps. At first I just observed, that the current sometimes just makes jumps. I had no idea why. This current jumping was even more extreme with the 500volts at the coils. But then I realized why the current jumps up and down: The resonant frequency changes and therefore the current goes up. Even at 500volts at the coils I can get to 0.xmA readings if the frequency is hit, but this is quite difficult doing manually, what I am still doing, as I still have this crude 8xA setup and don't use yet my special controller.
I also discovered another thing:
The gating does decrease the needed amperage extremely, and far beyond any logic. Just introducing some off gating reduced the needed current much more, than would be logical just by pure mathematics. E.g. if I have 6on and 2 off gating, it needs about 50times less current than the case, when I have no gating?!?
Does your circuit also behave like that Don?
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Kalli,
Maybe the jumps you mean happens cause of saturation of the core, therefore reducing the inductance and suddenly changing the resonant frequency.. could be other things too..
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@Sebosfato:
Yes, that would make really sense, thank you for this argument. It would also explain the gating current differences. But the strange thing is, in a minor version this also happened, when I had 10 volts on the core, where it surely didn't saturate the core.
And I could see clearly with the 500volts on it, that I can get down to almost no current, but then immediately the current again starts to drift slowly away. But if I then adjust the frequency I again get almost no current, and then again the current drifts away. IMHO this observation wouldn't really match the behaviour due to a core saturation.
Kali, yes the red dots you applied are the correct way.Thats just how all my testing of coils ended up,that gave me the highest output of voltage.I tried arranging the coils in every configuration possible,but that arrangement always gave the highest voltage output.
Stan showed several different drawings with different coil arrangements,so one of them was bound to be right.
Actually, now I'm a bit puzzled. Why did you test different configurations to look for which yields the highest voltage, if you saw how the real 5-coil-VIC was wired? As I understood, you looked on the real 5-coil-VIC, how exactly it was wired to everything. Or were these tests, before you saw the real VIC?
For as I already mentioned, there do exist 2 circuits which can yield high voltages: One with different polarities to the cell (the one from the patent pic posted before), and one with the same polarities to the cell. And before you mentioned that the real VIC was wired with different polarities, I would have been 90% sure, that it is wired with the same polarities to the cell. But in the setup with the same polarities to the cell it is much more difficult to get the resonant voltage rise, without needing a lot of current in the beginning.
IMHO 4 things would speak strongly for the second variant:
1.) In all available drawings where Stan actually showed the bifilars (only 3), they were wired with the same polarity to the cell.
2.) It would IMHO only make sense, if he really wound the 6-1 VIC bifilar, that then they had the same polarity to the cell. Otherwise the high voltage would have just ripped their isolation.
3.) The resistive wire for the choke coils IMHO only makes sense in this version. And this only, if the WFC itself has a high resistance (is small, like the injectors)
4.) You would actually see a pulse doubling over the cell.
But there surely also do speak things against this variant...(e.g. in this variant it would be beneficial if the circuit is grounded)
Just for better understanding: This is the wiring version which would also make sense:
(http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/3347/fullmeyerbriefsamepolar.gif)
But although both chokes are called here resonant charging chokes, actually only the second (62) would be resonating, not the top one, as they would have different resonant frequencies, due to different capacities seen. And one would be only interested in a resonance of the second choke, as this would then stop the current from flowing from the secondary through the cell.
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What would also makes sense is if the 56 or tx4 choke is made of resistive wire or at least a wire with smaller gauge so you can induce a higher voltage in it cause of the resonance of the tuned coil.
Maybe the jumps could be than related to what meyer said about inconsistencies of the water and called i think out of resonant conditions witch the pll should take over and correct the frequency immediately. Maybe is one of the reasons for the gating...
I think the 62 is a tuned "resonant" choke and 56 a charging choke.
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Is your water temperature stable when you're having spikes? It has an impact on the dielectric properties of water and would change your resonant frequency, ... as would the type of water as Sebosfato indicated ...
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It's just a small bowl with 2 SS plates. I don't think there will be any such temperature changes.
@Sebosfato:
I already thought the same, that then, it could make sense, that only one coil is resistive. But I would have gone for the other one. For then, the DC charge from the secondary would fully drop across the lower choke, which would charge the resonant capacity. On the other hand, having a big resistance in a resonating circuit is not what you wanna have...
I made a few tests, back now, with the same polarity to the cell.
In this setup the voltage can already get higher than the input voltage (which is not the case, for the other configuration, which is limited by the input voltage). Here I get about +-50volt swings with an input of 10volts.
The problem with this setup is the strong DC current while the input voltage is coming in.
It is logical, that if you put a resistance in between the diode and the first choke, all the voltage will drop across it. Therefore there's almost no more voltage resonating on the coils. It just obviously lowers your current. Also if you have a high resistance in the upper part, then the circuit is hindered in feeding additionally your resonating capacity, therefore you won't get high resonating voltages anymore.
But it's interesting, that if you put a resistance in between your neg input and the second coil, it will obviously again drop your DC current but it will not influence much your resonating voltage. If you go to the extreme, then you simply disconnect the second choke coil here (resistance infinity) and it will still resonate like a charm, but as no DC current can't flow anymore it needs almost no more current. Why is this possible?
The coil itself has a capacity to the environment, as the WFC has. Therefore the charge is always going from the WFC to the coil and vice versa. Without having the coil connected on the other side.
I would call this a top fed Tesla-coil ;D , in relation to the usually known bottom fed Tesla-coil. For in this example you feed the top, when the input voltage is coming in.
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Then you get something different from resonance, or the only possibility is if it was very very high frequency to be able to explore this kind of capacitances. I'm pretty sure it wont work if you don't use the resonance.
If the resonating coil is resistive you will only waste a lot of power. You know that. But the other as you only want voltage field benefits to have resistive wire..
I have good news i got my circuit now working properly now, the gate circuit is fine after some re-solderings didn't changed anything... It has from 1% to 100% duty cycle adjust and vary in a range of frequency witch i don't know what is cause i don't have a frequency meter.
Now the pulses are exactly what stan showed in the patent. The circuit in the patent connecting the nor gate to the inhibit of the pll makes that you can use the duty cycle to select the number of pulses, and the way it is provided you will never get a half pulse or just 1% of the pulse that could damage the components and specially the resonance. So Stan was really a genius. = )
Now i'm just trying to figure out why my driver is not being able to work at high frequencies, time ago use to work at 200khz, i'm not sure what is happening. maybe is partially broken...
For solving that maybe i'm going to try the ir4427 that i have here...
I did a first test here and from the battery i could get 33vac in the tx5 coil, i didn't added the series coil yet.. .
I need to buy some fuses to use my variac again..
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Kali,
I tested the different coil lay outs before and after I saw the Stans coils.I'm always trying different ways with my set up trying to find the best outcome.Sometimes I don't have my notes handy when hooking up the coils,so I just play around.Gut when I do get them to put out the highest voltage,it always comes out to Stans arrangement.But if I change something in the circuit,like bifiller choke coils verses single coils,it may need a different setup.Sometimes I'll try two diodes,or no step up transformer coils,and other things.
So I don't always test with that one coil arrangement.
In my testing of resonance,I found that resonance was only happening with the positive choke and the cell.If I disconnect the negative choke ,resonance frequency wouldn't change.If I added a capacitor to the top choke,the resonance frequency would change,but if I added it to the negative choke it wouldn't change the frequency for resonance.If I added a capacitor to the cell, resonance frequency would change.
So from my test,resonance is between the positive choke and the cell.
Don
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Then you get something different from resonance, or the only possibility is if it was very very high frequency to be able to explore this kind of capacitances. I'm pretty sure it wont work if you don't use the resonance.
I'm not quite sure, what you wanna say here. Sure it's a resonance condition. You can easily see it by varying the frequency. But it's just a capacitively fed resonance, if you just connect one end.
But to be honest. If you think about it. The 2 circuits are not that far apart from each other in relation to what happens on the WFC. Both of them let resonate some AC current through the WFC, and both of them apply some DC remainings. Although the "same polarity circuit" would surely push more DC current through it, if not limited by a resistance.
Except. If the "same polarity circuit" would actually work, like I thought it would at first sight. Namely, that really both chokes resonate. That it is actually more a single resonating bottom fed coil, but just wired with 2 wires. The endresult would be that it should act like a Dr Stiffler circuit. Namely positive current always flows mainly in from one electrode and then gets discharged through the other electrode. But I'm not sure if this is really the case. For if you take directly a Stiffler circuit at a few Kilovolts you don't see anything unusual happen.
Actually I quite neglected my work lately. So work has piled. So I will have to stop experimenting for a few days...
@Don:
I'm personally still do not understand why you still test other variations of the circuit, if you actually saw, how Stans circuit was exactly wired. Then I personally would only do tests on exactly this circuit, as long as it needs, 'til I get a result...But maybe that's just me??? I don't know.
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Well i see the possibility for the chokes to resonate too, but i'm not sure by witch mechanism if in that manner.. The problem i see is that wont close the circuit being the diode there...
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Kali,I test other ideas just for the sake of research.I've tested Stans coil arrangement and it never works the way he claims.It doesn't double the frequency after the blocking diode.and it doesn't produce unipolar pulse either.It creates alot of a/c like voltage across the water,but no gas.It will light a flouresant bulb,but thats it.
When reading voltage with a scope,it shows up like a/c.Meaning it swings above and below 0 referance line,and there is no double unipolar pulses.Just a sine wave at resonance.Stan states that pulses never drop below 0 ground.Anytime I get all positive pulses,there is always a pause between them,and no double pulses.The frequency at the cell is the same as the pulsed frequency,no doubling.
So I keep trying different test to get those double puses to appear.I feel that those double pulses are the key.
Don
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Don the doubling frequency will happen only if tx5 coil is resonating with the container. I'm quite sure of that. I'm working on that. mind the electrical insulated hosing. Why for?
why in the vic of the patent there is a ground connection there?
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In everything Ive read the chokes act as like a double secondary.... one thing i want to test is a core made like a flyback transformer where there is a very thin piece of mylar,mica or something between the core halfs mayb providing the unipolar coupling idk but in any case how ever it needs to built so that the secondary not only provides rectified half waves , it also acts as a primary for the chokes.the chokes then not only further restricts the amps but providing some for a pulse durring the secondary off but the chokes are puting out a resonate waveform instead of simple sinewave.... just some thawts :-\
I think mayb its this resonate waveform responsible for polarizing the atoms, aka e.p.p.( atomic polarizability ).
Im not an electronics guy.. im a rock driller so i know very little in practicle expierience in transformers but do form oppinions about what i read.... that being said what offsets the secondarys possitive and negatiive ends output by 90 degrees?
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Very interesting! I read where Don says he hasn't seen the frequency doubling. I have measured doubling with alternator coils and such, but, to get a better understanding I put together a super simple test using a signal gen, diode, and an air cored 100 wind coil. Measurements direct from the signal gen shows the selected frequency such as 60Hz, although, any measurements after the coil are all over the place. What am I seeing here? The meter rapidly fluctuates into the Khz range well beyond doubling from 60Hz.
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Bubz,you need to hook a scope to your test to be able to tune into the resonance of your choke.Your seeing alot of noise in your set up.Your choke only, will still resonate,but at what frequency.Once you tune into resonance,you'll see that it's at the same frequency as your input signal.That will only happen at resonance.
Don
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Don, thanks for this insight. As I see it, if you wire it, like in that patent pic, then you will mainly have ac on the cell (with a slight DC, due to the charging current)
IMHO the only configuration which can show a double pulse on the cell is the one with both chokes with same polarities to the cell, and only if the cell is made in a tubular configuration.
@sebosfato:
About the showed earth connection in the WFC-pic.
I just thought about the same this morning. And as I remembered and if I understood correctly what Don said, the water was circulated all the time through the cell and back to the tank. But this makes a huge difference in relation to the actual electric circuit. Why? The neg electrode is on the inside and the outer electrode is isolated. The inner electrode has direct contact to the water. Which means, as water itself is a conductor, all the water in the car tank will be part of this electrode potential "capacity". And if this water is not everywhere isolated from the buggy, even the buggy itself will get this potential. This would actually be almost equal to saying, that the neg electrode is connected to "earth". As there's anyway no "earth" on a car. But "earth" just means a big capacity. And the capacity of all the water will surely be quite big in relation to all other capacities in the circuit (even if the water would be completely isolated from the car). So in this manner, this showed (symbolic) "earth" on the inner electrode could make sense. It would surely quite strongly change the picture of how the VIC-circuit is working. For to really get, how this thing works, 2 points need to be satisfied:
1.) You need to know how it was wired.
2.) You need to know, how the "relevant" equivalence circuit is looking like.
And especially the 2nd part is IMHO the harder part, as the capacities involved are all that small, that any parasitic capacity could be relevant.
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I believe that the water was completely insulated, so it could maintain the charge (so as the pump necessarily). The fact that he makes it circulate is because of the reason he gave us, when a charged particle cross an electric field the result is electromagnetic energy. So he could avoid lasers for example... The earth or ground that i'm talking about is called by meyer isolated ground... thats why...
But yet from this doesn't mean that the electrical insulated ground is in contact with the water... with thus i believe is not. So for me this forms the resonant ability cavity.
I'm not sure if the water was recirculated back in the tank but could be, as could also be there recirculating and water being added according to the level in the cavity... not sure about that...
So what i'm saying is that no electrode inside the water is electrically connected direct to the ground only thru the coil or dielectric (forming the capacitance) therefore forming the resonant tank.
Yes water will hold up a very big charge (big capacity), if it sits in an insulated housing...
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Bubs the doubling means that you will input pulse 50% duty and you will have that same frequency bur flipping polarity, therefore if you was going to full wave rectify you would get a double frequency, but happens that the vic does not need a full wave bridge cause of the phase of the resonance in relation to the pulse, so only at the resonant frequency you will see the frequency doubling..
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So what i'm saying is that no electrode inside the water is electrically connected direct to the ground only thru the coil or dielectric (forming the capacitance) therefore forming the resonant tank.
What I meant was: There's anyway no "ground" connection on a car. The "ground" on your car, is just a body with a big capacity. And as all the water will have an electric connection to the inner tube, this means, that there's quite a big capacity (in relation to the capacities in the VIC) directly at the neg electrode. So from a pure electrical schematic viewpoint you would describe this equal as having a "ground" connection directly at the inner tube. Basically you would say, that there's a big capacity (in relation to the VIC capacities) connected to the inner tube.
Sure the capacity overall is very small (as usual with single terminal capacities, e.g. as huge as the earth is, it has only about 710 uF), but compared to the VIC capacities it is big. Which means nothing else, than the circuit is surely not able to raise or lower the voltage (of this capacity in relation to the environment) at this point in the circuit by much. As it would have to charge any other smaller single terminal capacity in the VIC to a much higher voltage to be able to do that.
BTW: Can anyone of you read the words where the first choke is (top left), in this handwritten note from Stan?
(http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/ORIGSKETCH2.jpg)
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As I again thought about the 5-VIC-coil layout I discovered an IMHO interesting point.
From the VIC-size and AWG-size, as told by Don, my guesses would be about the following Nr turns of the coils (Primary 100 or 200, Pickup 400, Secondary and both chokes 2'000). Sure the numbers are only guesses, but I think they should be in the right dimension region. What is really interesting is the fact, that the secondary has the same size as each of the choke coils.
If we now look at the wiring, that Don described (same as patent pic, shown before), one thing is very interesting to see: The choke coil voltage (of both coils in series) is certainly 2times as big as that of the secondary. This means, when the primary is energized, no current can flow through the diode. Only when the primary is off, and the chokes are swinging in reverse, a current would flow through the diode. This is quite strange.
Were the pickup windings also wound in 2 coils, as in the patent circuit? Is it just me, or are 400turns for the pickup not abit much...
Did the wire of the primary coil get out of the coil at two different ends, or at the same end of the coil. IMHO this would determine, if it had 100turns or 200turns (so if the ratio primary to secondary/chokes was rather 1:10 or 1:20).
Where were the resistors connected? I think you once mentioned, the 2 smaller ones (220Ohms, which look like connected in parallel) were connected to the pickup, and the big green one was connected to the primary. Is this correct? From the picture, it could also be, that all three were in parallel.
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ive read wer don said the core is two pieces butted against each other...... just to ask a question lol are the chokes on seperate halves and or wich side is the secondary on compared with the chokes?
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Just look at the first pic in this thread, where the 5-coil-VIC is shown. The core was 2 U-core halves put together (in the pic, one U is at the top, seen as a n, and the other at the bottom, seen as a u). The red ones on the right side of the picture are the chokes, the blue one on the left the secondary.
But it's obvious that strictly speaking, all three coils are secondaries. The only difference is, that some coils can additionally resonate, and others not. And what exactly resonates with what capacities, is one big part of the mystery...
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thank you :) was it the dublin institute that said the core in theory wld have a q factory of infinity? i jus like to think of the cokes as double secondarries lol It appears to me the secondary provides the initial voltage field to the plates for alignment purposes of the molecules.... the choke/s appear to apply an atomic polarization of the atoms ( wich would require an oscillating waveform ... ).. maybe nuclear polarization ??? from there i havent formed further oppinions yet.Im jus glad to be here lol.
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Kali'
Your way off with your turns.
Here's the resistance values that I took from the coils with a Fluke meter.
Primary-10.5 ohms
Secondary and chokes-70-75 ohms
Feedback-11.5 ohms
Now 29 gauge wire measures 81.83 ohms per 1000 feet,so I come up with the following
Primary- 128 feet
Secondary and chokes- 884 feet
As for number of turns I come up with
Primary - 600-650 turns
Secondary and chokes - 3000-3500 turns
Because they are hand wound and not precision,these should be very close.
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don
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Thank you very very much. Again!
As from the picture and your dimensions I would have guessed, one coil was about 1 inch long and 7/8 inch thick, with an inner thickness of 1/2 inch. Seems, like they were actually a bit bigger.
You said:
Each leg was @ 2 1/2 inches long
So you didn't mean the complete inner leg (where the coils go on) of both u cores together with this value?
But 600 turns for the primary? If I look at the picture it's hard to believe, there are that many turns on that (well if it's bigger, that aren't that many layers anymore, makes sense). Thank you again. It certainly makes sense, that the pickup has about the same Nr of turns as the primary. So as I understood you, the pickup was just one coil, not 2, like in the patent circuit. OK, that's not an important fact, I know...
So the Primary to Sec/Choke coil ratio was only about 1:5.
Were the resistors really across the primary or rather in series, which would make sense for a current restriction while driving. If they were across, they would have been rather an exchange for the freewheeling diode, which wouldn't make much sense.
But for me it's still very interesting, that all the coils had the same number of turns. Up until know, I always thought the secondary needs more turns. If it doesn't, the circuit has to work differently than I thought at first.
BTW: Am I the only one which cannot see any of Dons pics at the beginning of this thread?
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Kali'
Your way off with your turns.
Here's the resistance values that I took from the coils with a Fluke meter.
Primary-10.5 ohms
Secondary and chokes-70-75 ohms
Feedback-11.5 ohms
Now 29 gauge wire measures 81.83 ohms per 1000 feet,so I come up with the following
Primary- 128 feet
Secondary and chokes- 884 feet
As for number of turns I come up with
Primary - 600-650 turns
Secondary and chokes - 3000-3500 turns
Because they are hand wound and not precision,these should be very close.
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don
Hello Don Thank you a lot for the info. When you say "220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm."
What you mean, by across? Between the primary leads? They are in parallel? 220ohms is the resistance of all together or individual if more than one?
Is very interesting that he used 29AWG for the primary... I think that his thing consumed really very very low power...
Don what was the inductance of each choke? Did you measured the secondary + chokes? the primary...?
Kalli I can see the pictures normally try to check your browser configurations.
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I personally guess he meant, they were wired in series. 3 220Ohm in parallel would be about 73Ohms. In series with the primary, a maximum of about 145mA through the primary would be achievable, which is really almost nothing?!?
BTW: I think it's funny, that the three resistors happen to have the same value as the three coils together ;D .
But I'm still puzzled by the overall figures. Namely, if the circuit was made like that, the voltage of one coil should never exceed the PIV of the diode, which is 600Volts. So if the circuit would develop any higher voltage, it would kill the diode. Sure the diode can usually withstand a bit more voltage, but not much. The voltage ratings are usually quite tight in semiconductors.
Actually Stan claimed the same in his patent description of this WFC circuit:
The diode, of course, is selected in accordance with the
maximum voltage encountered in the pulsing circuit. A 600
PIV fast switching diode, such as an NVR 1550 high speed
switching diode, has been found to be useful in the
circuit herein.
(As we know, the NVR 1550 is probably a text recognition error. Don told it was a MUR1560)
Or another statement in the same patent:
In a typical operation of the cell with a
representative water capacitor described below, at a
frequency of about 5 KHz at unipolar pulses from 0 to 650
volts at a sensed resonant condition into the resonant
cavity, conversion of about 5 gallons of water per hour
into a fuel gas will occur on average.
(in this sentence I'm still puzzled by the claim of conversion of 5 gallons of water in one hour in one such small cell. For if really that much could have been converted, he wouldn't have needed 10 WFCs of this size to power his car?!? And I would have my doubts if it's actually physically possible to generate that much gas and have the cell still working, as you would actually also have to get this gas out of the cell again. If he meant 5 gallons of gas, this would also be strange, for this, even with 10WFCs would never be enough to power a car. Maybe this was a hypothetical value, which he came upon by measuring the gas output when he just let the cell work for a short time. This would mean, it would be theoretically possible, but not be really practical, therefore he needed more cells.)
Now, if we look at the figures, you have given: A primary to sec/choke ratio of about 1:5, and a switching transistor (TIP120) which can only withstand 60Volts, you get some quite strange results. A 1:5 ratio would mean (without resonance), only 60volts (at 12v input) on the coils. With my circuits I get about a voltage magnification of 1:5 (on resonance), which would result in 300volts on the coils. Maybe by a good design you get higher here, say 10:1. Then you would have 600volts. And this would then also be the maximum of the diode. So in this relation the figures seem to fit. But this would really mean, that there was absolutely no "high" voltage in the circuit!?!?
Additionally, if we look again at the driving transistor: If the resonance-voltage-magnification-ratio would have been more than 1:4, then you would have had to protect the transistor. E.g. with a freewheeling diode, like in the patent circuit.
BTW: If there wouldn't be any resonance (capacities), the coils would now, due to the freewheeling diode also simply have this voltage ratio. E.g. if the voltage drop on the freewheeling diode would be 1.2V, then each coil would have -6Volts on it during off phase. Only due to the capacities in resonance this could be circumvented, and the freewheeling diode would then just draw quite some power again out of the resonator, which would decrease your attainable Q.
It's interesting, that the TIP120 does have an additional diode in reverse, similar to a Power-FET. This means, that an additional diode in series, like in his patent circuit would be needed, not to limit resonance during primary on.
From these figures I can only draw this conclusion: Either he didn't use high voltages in this circuit, but only to about 600volts (maybe a bit more), or he used another circuit-layout. What would have really interested me, would be, how the circuit card for the steam resonator looked alike. If the connectors were also just made for lower voltages, or if there HV-connectors were used?
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Does anyone know the exact dimensions of the WFC cylinders, the slots? It's very important!
One guy suggests that WFC is a microwave waveguide. We can try this hypothesis. http://www.meanders.ru/meiers1.shtml (http://www.meanders.ru/meiers1.shtml) (Russian)
2-e important condition - to stimulate the process of gas a coherent source of light (UV and IR).
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Are there any specialists of microwave waveguides on site? I'm interesting to their opinion.
Sorry for my English :)
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Kali'
Your way off with your turns.
Here's the resistance values that I took from the coils with a Fluke meter.
Primary-10.5 ohms
Secondary and chokes-70-75 ohms
Feedback-11.5 ohms
Now 29 gauge wire measures 81.83 ohms per 1000 feet,so I come up with the following
Primary- 128 feet
Secondary and chokes- 884 feet
As for number of turns I come up with
Primary - 600-650 turns
Secondary and chokes - 3000-3500 turns
Because they are hand wound and not precision,these should be very close.
As for the 220 ohm resister,they were wired across the primary to restrict the current feeding it.10.5 ohms will make the coil heat up with 12 volts feeding it.Some of the coil pacts had three resistors across the primary,all of them were 220 ohm.The largest one was a 5 watt.
Don
For mutual inductance, measure the inductance of the primary and secondary in series, and then interchange the connections of one winding for a second reading. Apply the equation below:
M=1/4 (Lserries+ minus Lserries-)
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@newguy: I think this is too late. Don hasn't access to the original VIC anymore.
One guy suggests that WFC is a microwave waveguide.
I'm no specialist in waveguides, but IMHO the frequencies which would be involved in this theory are that ridiculously high and far from Stans used frequencies (<=10KHz), that I personally do not believe in this waveguide theory. But everybody is free to try.
One thing is strange, though. Although the guy says to have read Stans patents, he says, Stan doesn't indicate the frequencies used, and that he guesses, they were below 50MHz. But Stan actually stated often the used frequencies. So I'm a bit puzzled about that.
Kalli I can see the pictures normally try to check your browser configurations.
That's strange. I tried it with Opera and Firefox. Both are not able to load the picture.
E.g. My browsers are not able to load this picture: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1513.0;attach=6228 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1513.0;attach=6228)
I can load Pic Nr 6227 and 6229, but not 6228. There I just do not get any response from the server...
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Hi kalli,
The charging choke 56 in series with the diode assure that the voltage is not limited to 60v... actually if you think about actually one of the chokes is subtracting the field... So he basically is applying 20v + 20 of the choke in series with the diode, than the other tube is receiving 20v max also per pulse.
During the resonance energy will be accumulated in the vic, i can tell you maybe more than 1000 times more energy than the input can be developed there, for sure, the electrical resonance means recirculation of energy. So the "tuned" choke could actually achieve thousands of volts in my though if closed the circuit resonance with the ground capacitance relation to the cell.
The smaller the capacitance the greater is the Q so with less amps you get higher voltage per amp circulating.
HE could have worked with values like 50pf witch for a big choke still give us a relatively high Q resonance in real world.
I'm going for 330pf with my cell (measured value)... Between my tubes i might have 1,8 nf but i can only measure the resistance, i already achieved 10kohms of resistance. This means that 1 amp passing thru it would develop 10kv.
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The charging choke 56 in series with the diode assure that the voltage is not limited to 60v... actually if you think about actually one of the chokes is subtracting the field... So he basically is applying 20v + 20 of the choke in series with the diode, than the other tube is receiving 20v max also per pulse.
I see it simply like that. You have three coils on a core, all the same. Two of them are opposing each other. So the final relevant voltage for your diode is the voltage of one coil. And this voltage cannot exceed 600volts. And as all your coils are on the same core, each coil is limited to these 600volts. Not one coil can go higher. For if it would go higher, it would act like a primary for the other coils, which would then also get a that high voltage, as all have the same amounts of turns.
There's a massive difference happening if you put all coils on the same core, than if you have them separately. You just cannot separate their fields.
This is the reason, why I first thought the SS wire is needed. For it would allow the coils to have more unshared field lines...
But as we see from the 5-VIC-coil, this is obviously not needed. This VIC worked, and it worked just with all coils copper and on the same core...
IMHO there would be only two configurations, which would allow it otherwise. One would be, if the core goes into saturation. Then the coils would become independent of each other, and the voltage could go high, without affecting the diode.
The other would be, if one coil has massively more resistance than the others. This coil would have more "internal" voltage drop than the others. So the there would have to be two opposing coils and one coil with more internal resistance. Then you could go higher with the voltage of the opposing coils, without affecting the diode.
During the resonance energy will be accumulated in the vic, i can tell you maybe more than 1000 times more energy
I don't think this is a realistic Q value for this kind of circuit with a core. The core losses are IMHO just too high. Just look at the datasheet of any core and at it's indicated core losses. And you also have to remember the distributed capacity of a coil. This is far bigger than 50pF. This is why Tesla used to wire his magnifier coils with big distances between each winding (although this reduces the L). For, as he said, otherwise the capacity is just becoming too big, to get a high Q.
At least one thing is for sure: The coils in the 5-coil-VIC, that Stan used, certainly had quite a high distributed capacity, as they were "normally" wound with 3000 turns. I would say, that this capacity strongly dominates the resonance circuit. And also my experiments actually tend to show, that these are the important capacities...
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The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
As for the NVR1550 diode,there is actually a MUR1550 and a MUR1560.The first is a 500 volt,and the second was a 600 volt.
Kali,as for your explaination of the voltage step up up 1:5 with 12 volts in and 60 volts out was a little confusing.But I believe I understand what you were getting at.
You are stating that if you apply 12 volts to the primary coil,with a step up ratio of 1:5 you will then get 60 volts out to the blocking diode.Now in my testing of my coils,I have a step up ratio of 1:10 or as I would put it 10:1.So if I apply 12 volts to my primary I should get 120 volts out of the secondary.Right?
Well when I test the output of my secondary without any load on it,I get a much greater step up than 10:1.I've seen several hundred volts.No just maybe that is what Stan is hoping for with his set up.Maybe because we are restricting amps with the choke coils that this high voltage from our secondary is able to stay high,because of the very low load.
Under normal step up coils we are appling loads to the secondary output which pulls the voltage down to the actual ratio of the steup.So just maybe with the chokes restricting the amps,we are able to keep this higher voltage than the stepup ratio produces.Maybe it has something to do with the coils all being on the same core that allows this greater voltage to be produce.
Now again with my coil set up,of 100 turns primary,1000 turns secondary,and 2000 turns chokes,I have seen between 1kv-2kv at the cell.It it hasn't had any ill effect on the blocking diode.And my diode is the same rating as a MUR1560.
Thats some of my thoughts on this matter as I have seen it with my own testing.
Don
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Really across it??? So how did you measure the primary resistance, if there were resistors in parallel? For that you would have needed to open the circuit. Or did you calculate it? Or how did you do that?
If you get a higher voltage, than your step-up ratio, then you're either using it on a resonance, or you get a surge from the stray-inductance, or you are using it as a flyback. What does your scope say, when you just put a rectangular waveform on your primary and no load on the secondary? It should output also a rectangular waveform with exactly the step-up ratio. Maybe in the beginning of the rectangular you see a short spike (stray inductance) with some ringing afterwards. OK, maybe Stan used these switching surges, who knows...
Really? You have a 600PIV diode which withstands 2kv. I'm quite impressed. The only reason for this I could image is the very low energy oscillating, so that the diode capacity can handle this, but then the diode would be quite useless...???
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The primary coil was measured with the resistors removed.All coils were measured unconnected from the rest.
All of my voltage measurements were taken at resonance.When pulsing the primary coil with square waves,you get sine waves as an output of the secondary.I would have to retest to see if the step up ratio shows up.
Don
Update:
I just tested my coil setup and this is what I came up with,
100 turns primary, 1000 turns secondary
12 volts dc applied to primary
Now I performed two test,one without bifiller choke coils on core (not connected to anything)and the other with chokes off core,then tuned to resonance with scope.
First test without chokes showed @ 120 volts out of secondary, just hooked to scope leads, and resonance was at 57 khz.This gives you a 10:1 stepup.
Second test with bifiller chokes on core and not connected to anything, gave @ 250 volts out of secondary,just hooked to scope leads, and the resonance was at 32.8 khz. This gave a stepup of 20:1.
So there is something happening with all coils on the core.It doubled the voltage out of the secondary.
Don
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The primary coil was measured with the resistors removed.All coils were measured unconnected from the rest.
Wow, didn't think that you were that invasive during your "visit", to even take things apart. But if I would have had the possibility, I would've certainly done the same.
I really think it is quite strange to wire resistors in parallel (at least at 12volts, this means a loss of 2watts, so no wonder he used bigger resistors here). This would only beware the coil from heat, if the current through the transistor is limited. But this doesn't really make sense, due to several reasons. First, you could have just fed the transistor with another base current, to get less current through the primary. Second, as the resistance of the primary is that low, compared to the resistors, still almost all the current would flow through the primary.
IMHO it only does make one sense. As I already stated before, it would be like a replacement for the freewheeling diode. But these resistors would (instead of the diode) allow quite a voltage to develop across the primary (but on the other hand they would also limit the maximum voltage, compared to nothing in parallel). So the circuit would act like a flyback. All in all, this wouldn't astonish me, if we look at how the VIC was made. But what puzzles me, is that the TIP120 can only withstand 60 volts.
If we look at how he wired the VIC, then it actually is rather a flyback circuit. Why? The secondary has only half the voltage of the 2 chokes in series. So the diode would be blocking, while the primary is on. When the primary is off, the diode would be conducting, as the 2 chokes have double the voltage than the secondary. So it would make sense, to have the primary in a flyback manner. But the TIP120 is only for 60volts, which is really not much for a primary flyback voltage (only 4 times voltage step-up would be possible, to a total of 4x5=20 step-up ratio from 12volts). And without any additional circuitry to help the TIP, it would live very dangerously (especially in a resonance condition).
Sure if you do it like that you could have higher voltages than you PIV diode rating. But only in one way. Which means, the resonating voltage in the other direction would always have to be smaller. For this, the flyback energy surge has to go somewhere. The best candidate for this: The WFC.
So it could maybe really be like this: The coils resonating, and every half wave, quite a surge is going through the circuit (when the primary is off). The good thing is, during this surge, the voltage could go as high as you like, the diode PIV isn't relevant here, as the diode is conducting. But two things would limit your maximum attainable voltage: First, the resistance of your circuit (the higher the resistance, the higher the voltage) and second, the primary transistor. If there would have been a different transistor, I would say, everything matches. But 60volts!?!
If you do not protect the transistor with an additional circuitry (like the freewheeling diode), then this simply means, that the reverse voltage on your coils is not allowed to go beyond (60-12)volts*5=240volts, which is really not much...So I'm puzzled???
All of my voltage measurements were taken at resonance.
As I said, at resonance you certainly get a completely different picture and aren't anymore only limited by the step-up ratio, but get an extension by the q-factor.
Edit:
@Don: You're sure the 57KHz is the basic resonance frequency of your coil, and not some harmonic? For actually. Under no load condition, in resonance, already with a step up of 1:10, you should get mucha higher voltage than just 10 times more. How are you driving your circuit? With a FET? Do you have the additional series diode?
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Kali, Don did those tests on his own coil, not Stans.
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Kali, Don did those tests on his own coil, not Stans.
lol, yeah, I know. But we were mainly talking about the resistors in Stans original VIC.
Additional thought: As two coils are opposing and have the same size, you could as well say, that you can take both of them away. Then you would just have one coil in a flyback circuit, which should do the same. So why are the 2 additional coils there? Everything can resonate. And as I have seen, from my experiments, the coils are able to resonate some AC through the WFC. So it would be now, like having some AC resonating though your WFC with some unipolar bangs everytime, the primary switches off. But as I said, this could only be, if the primary transistor could withstand more voltage...This really puzzles me...And it would also not really match the descriptions given by Stan...
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Kali,
In Stans circuit,there is a 5 amp 1000 volt diode between the TIP120 and the primary coil.The way you keep explaining your ideas,sounds like your putting the TIP120 after the primary coil.That diode protects the TIP120 from high voltage back emf as I see it.
Stan also put a diode across the inputs to the primary.From ground to positive.
As for testing my coils,if you don't find resonance,the voltages are all over the place at any gien frequency,and the scope traces look like junk.
Yes 57 khz is the primary resonance frequency with my coil.It is very easy to find,I'll take a picture and post here.
Don
Update: Pics added
1st Picture primary resonance @54khz
2nd picture out of resonance @ 2.4khz
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In Stans circuit,there is a 5 amp 1000 volt diode between the TIP120 and the primary coil.The way you keep explaining your ideas,sounds like your putting the TIP120 after the primary coil.That diode protects the TIP120 from high voltage back emf as I see it.
I actually always thought, there must be a series diode, but I rather talked about the freewheeling diode. This diode in series, IMHO doesn't (just) protect the TIP, but rather protects the resonant circuit from the primary, so that the primary doesn't take a lot of power out of the resonant circuit. The internal reverse diode of the TIP would otherwise clamp the reverse primary voltage to 12volts. If anything is resonating above that, it would take energy out of the oscillator.
If the TIP wouldn't have a reverse diode, or if the reverse diode amperage is too high, or if the diode is too slow, the TIP would need protection by the diode. Unfortunately in the datasheet I have about it, these values are not indicated.
But why did he use there a 1000volts diode, but just a 600v diode in the VIC-circuit??? Seems quite strange to me...
One guess could be, that he needed a diode for higher currents in the VIC. For when the surge would come, for a short moment quite a current would probably flow for a short time. This would again match Stans notes on Graneaux' experiments (high current density for a short time is needed, followed by a reverse voltage).
Stan also put a diode across the inputs to the primary.From ground to positive.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. By across the primary, and from ground to positive (as one side of the primary isn't connected to ground). Do you mean a freewheeling diode? But then the resistors would make absolutely no sense...
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Now i understand across thanks don.
I already used this in the past, cause i wanted to assure that the pulse didn't come back in the mosfet.... Kali this resistors automatically cancel the chance of it being driven in the kick back or flyback mode, one of the reasons is that it would consume the discharge pulse... Other reason is that the core must be free to oscillate.
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I already used this in the past, cause i wanted to assure that the pulse didn't come back in the mosfet.... Kali this resistors automatically cancel the chance of it being driven in the kick back or flyback mode, one of the reasons is that it would consume the discharge pulse... Other reason is that the core must be free to oscillate.
The problem is it would only "consume" an amount of the discharge pulse at a time. Let's say, e.g. the primary had 1 Amp flowing when it is switched off. The one Amp "wants" to continue to flow. Therefore the voltage immediately rises until one amp can flow through the resistors. This would mean, that the reverse voltage would then rise to 80 volts (1A*(70+10)Ohm). And these 80 volts are then again stepped up, by the usual Step-up ratio. This is, how a flyback works. Usually you don't take just a resistor for this, but rather a resistor and a capacitance (to get a nice smooth waveform). But principally it remains the same.
And as strange as it may seem. As you also indicated: With these resistors you take out much much more energy out of the core as if you would by taking a freewheeling diode. For with the diode, you would always only have the diode voltage drop (e.g. 1.2V). So if 1Amp wants to flow, it would just dissipate (1.2V*1A+10Ohm*1A^2=11.2Watts) instead of the resistors ((70+10)Ohm*1A^2=80Watts)...
But by introducing the resistors you would exactly get, what a flyback is for, you would get a short high reverse voltage spike. The only limiting question would be how much current flowed in the primary, when it becomes turned off. If this current is so low, that the return voltage spike is neglectable, then you are right, then it would just dissipate the remaining energy. But unfortunately it would also take energy out of the resonance circuit. But if the current is really low, it would even take less energy out of the oscillator than with the diode.
The calculation is quite easy. For 70 Ohms, it would start to act like a flyback when the current in the primary gets higher than 150mA (12V/(70+10)Ohm).
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I see i understood. Like having also a diode in series with the capacitor and the resistor in parallel, for protection... Snubber...
But this voltage will be lost voltage only in the primary i'm right? how about the time constant? Would be not very slow. Maybe if we knew the primary inductance we could try to shoot some calculations..
I think it could also be a choice for the filtering of a frequency...
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These are the diodes I'm talking about. Q9 is the TIP120
Kali can you see my pics I post?
Don
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Yes, the newer ones I can see. This is the patent circuit.
So you are saying, that the original 5-VIC-coil, you looked at, had actually really 3 220Ohm resistors in parallel with the diode and additionally a freewheeling diode (an additional 1N4005 diode in parallel to the primary)? Am I correct?
The funny thing is, that a 1N4005 is actually extremely slow (it's made for use in mains frequency designs). So it would start to really switch long after any flyback pulse would have been made...
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Yes how many times do I need to repeat myself.Everything I tell people here is just how it was.Not every coil pack had three 220 ohm resisters on them,I don't know why,but most just had one 5 watt 220 ohm.The one I took the picture of had three.
I don't know why he had them different,I can just tell you how they were.Some of his things just don't add up at times.
Those two diodes were on the VIC circuit card and not in with the coil pack.
I only use the diode in between my mosfet and primary coil.If I add the diode across my primary,it makes the current jump by about 10 times.From 30 milliamps to 300 milliamps,so I don't use it.
Don
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Here's the front and back of a VIC card
Enjoy!!!
Don
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Thanks for the pic. And sorry, if I am at times a bit pushing. But it seems, like you sometimes do make statements, which you correct later, So I just really wanna go sure. I know, it quickly happens, that one has wrote something, that wasn't as it was actually meant.
For example, you said in the beginning of this thread:
The resistors were all tied together as one.They seemed to be across the feedback winding.
Now, you state that the resistors were across the primary.
Or about the freewheeling diode:
I had the same results as you with the diode across the primary coil,so I took it out as well.I'm not sure if there was one in Stans setup.
Now you state, there was one in Stans setup.
Probably you went again to see Stans stuff after these statements. But I think you will now understand why I'm asking these questions, as I just want to be sure. As even slight differences in the actual circuit can make huge differences in it's operation.
I know, I'm complicating things sometimes.
So I will try it again with the resistors. As easy as possible.
If the current is so low in the primary, that the voltage drop over the resistors is smaller than the diode voltage, it does make sense to have the resistors there, as by that you assure that you take less energy out of the oscillating circuit than just with the diode alone. The principle is simple. The lower the reverse voltage drop, the less energy you take out of the resonant circuit during pulse off. The best would be a short circuit over the primary during primary off.
So if he actually really had both (a diode and the resistor) in parallel, then it certainly is not in a flyback mode. As the diode would prevent any flyback effect. And the resistor(s) would then only make sense, if the current in the primary due to the resonance in the VIC is small.
And if you have both diodes in the primary driver circuit, you will obviously not have any problems with the transistor voltage, as the freewheeling diode protects it during pulse off, and the series diode protects it during pulse on, and at the same time this also prevents any big power loss in the resonance circuit. The freewheeling diode (with the resistor(s)) make sure, there's no big loss during pulse off, and the series diode makes sure there's no big loss during pulse on.
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That first quote was when I thought the primary coil was the feedback coil.That statement was made early on before I had more time to check out the coil pack better.
The second quote was made before I found the diode on the vic card at a later time also.
Everything I write now is just as I have found it with Stans stuff.If I'm not sure of something,I will state that it's my opinion.But if I say it's how it was,you can be sure that's how it was.
These post do go back some time now,and so much has been learned since then.
Don
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Yeah, I know, we all progress. I just sometimes want to be sure. I beg for pardon for that. As for me, I'm not up to date about your story, so it's sometimes hard to tell when I'm reading in older posts, if the things in there are still valid or not. Therefore I better ask twice, to get the newest update. ;D
Edit: I just discovered, that when I visit this site by an anonymizer proxy, then I can see Don's pics at the beginning of this thread. This is really strange. Something has to block the reception of these pics from here directly?!? And it's only Dons pics. All other pics from the beginning I can see...Really strange...
These pics now make quite a lot of things clearer, and would have spared quite some questions if I could've seen them before. Sorry Don, for asking that much.
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The primary coil was measured with the resistors removed.All coils were measured unconnected from the rest.
All of my voltage measurements were taken at resonance.When pulsing the primary coil with square waves,you get sine waves as an output of the secondary.I would have to retest to see if the step up ratio shows up.
Don
Update:
I just tested my coil setup and this is what I came up with,
100 turns primary, 1000 turns secondary
12 volts dc applied to primary
Now I performed two test,one without bifiller choke coils on core (not connected to anything)and the other with chokes off core,then tuned to resonance with scope.
First test without chokes showed @ 120 volts out of secondary, just hooked to scope leads, and resonance was at 57 khz.This gives you a 10:1 stepup.
Second test with bifiller chokes on core and not connected to anything, gave @ 250 volts out of secondary,just hooked to scope leads, and the resonance was at 32.8 khz. This gave a stepup of 20:1.
So there is something happening with all coils on the core.It doubled the voltage out of the secondary.
Don
@Dynodon
Thank you for the Vic circuit board picture! 8)
Did you connect Scope gnd and signal to the coil output?
When we connect the scope gnd it's changing the output voltage to higher volts than not connecting gnd.
Are you using differential probe?
Still testing without diff probe on my coils and scope gnd connected. I'm not sure if that is right for getting a good reading. Also not clear if gnd must be connected to the wfc cell between choke 2 and secondary coil.
Br,
Webmug
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Also not clear if gnd must be connected to the wfc cell between choke 2 and secondary coil.
According to Don, it was isolated in the original. I personally would guess, that there had to be a reason for this.
Yes, the measuring with the scope is quite tricky, as the capacities involved are that small, that you immediately change the circuit by attaching your probe. Then you surely also additionally chnage the circuit by grounding it, with scope earth. Therefore I personally usually make differential measurements to an isolated external ground.
To have the scope ungrounded from mains and still then attach the "ground" lead to the VIC can be a big mistake if you're measuring high frequency high voltage circuits. It could damage your scope, for the ground connection is not made for high dU/dt ratios.
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Thanks so much Don for the VIC card circuit. If I'm looking at it right, it confirms the scan time that I was thinking it was. Puharich says the NMR of water is approx. 3 sec or between 0.125 Hz - 0.250 Hz. I worked out the scan time and its set to 0.219 Hz with an on time of 3.05 sec and an off time of 1.52 sec. Again Don thanks for the post!!!!
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Thanks for the picture Don!
I've been comparing with the control and driver patent, do you know which Figures from the patent are on this board and which are on other boards in the gas management computer? For example in the patents there are about 3 tests jacks for the scope, so with one on this board, the others must be on other boards.
I'm trying to think what circuits can be built to make it work without having the whole gas management computer, as those signal inputs might be required for this board to work properly.
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Hey Donald,
From what I've been able to make out is that this circuit board contains part of the "Analog Voltage Generator", "Voltage Amplitude Control", "Cell Driver", "PLL", "Resonant Scanning Circuit", and "Pulse Indicator Circuit". Still working most of it out.
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Sweet stuff, I'll be taking a closer look too, as soon as I can.
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Webmug,
those test of my coils were done with the scope probe connected to one side of the secondary coil and the ground clip connected to the other side of the secondary coil.It didn't make alot of differance if the ground clip was hooked up or not.I first connected the probe,and there was voltage being read,then I connected the probes ground and didn't see a change.The rest of my tests were done with both connected.When I test my whole vic,I ground the probes ground to my dc power supply output ground.
Tony,
I seen Stans scanning circuit running and it would take between 2-3 seconds to go each way.
Donald,
Half of the Voltage Amplitude Control, (figure 4) is on that card,the other half is with the vic coils.
All of the Cell Driver Circuit (figure 5) is on that card.
All of The Phase Lock Loop Circuit (figure 7) is on that card.
All of The Resonant Scanning Circuit (figure 8) is on that card.
All of The Pulse Indicator Circuit (figure 9) is on that card.
The Variable Pulse Frequency Generator (figure 12), the Gated Pulse Frequency Generator (figure 6),the Analog Voltage Generator (figure 3) were all in the GMS control panel.
Here's a pic of the GMS panel
Don
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Thank you Don! That will make it a lot easier to build this!
What about Figure 2: Gas feedback control circuit,
Figure 11: Digital Control Means, I think this is inside the laser accelerator?
Do you have any pictures of the cards inside that GMS unit?
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How much energy in watts per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell. Thanks.
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How much energy in watts per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell.
I think nobody knows, how efficient the cell actually really was.
I thought again about the blocking diode and the PIV-rating. Don, when your circuit is oscillating at 2kV, what voltage then, the diode does actually see (e.g. what's the voltage over the diode)? Did you ever measure that? I would have a hypothesis, which would allow a lower voltage over the diode during blocking condition (pulse on). Gee I really have to continue experimenting, but still a lot of work to do in my job...Maybe in a few days...
Unfortunately I've wound my coil with more turns on the secondary, than both chokes together. But as I see it now, this would prevent the actual circuit from working. So I have to wind a new coil, which takes quite some time...
As I was interested, I shortly had a closer look at the primary driving circuit of Stan. For better view, I started to color the power routing (just the obvious ones). Here's the pic if anyone wants to continue.
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9059/meyerspics69powerroutin.jpg)
It really looks like he used a 1N4003 as a freewheeling diode and another one as the series diode. Do you know, what type it was? As from the picture you can hardly see it.
I still think it's quite terrible, that he used a 1N4003 for the freewheeling. It's way too slow. You would get a terrible surge on every switch off (especially due to the leakage inductance), which would kill the TIP120. This could also be a reason, why he inserted the parallel resistor in the first hand, as kind of a poor man's snubber. There do exist fast switching 4003s, the UF4003. But he clearly used an 1N4003. IMHO he either inserted the resistors, as a snubber, to prevent surges before the diode switches, or he intentionally made it to lower the losses in the resonator (get a higher Q) or he used it, as a voltage forming network, like in a flyback and intentionally used a slow switching diode. I would guess, the first is most probable.
But what's really strange is, that he connected the primary neg of the coil over an RC-damper to the VCO-Output!
But now, I really have to work...
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How much energy in watts per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell.
lets go with some information provided by stans control driver circuit international patent,
stan says at start up the vic will consume about 25 milliamps through the water
Stan states that in a resonant condition current leakage across the cell is 1-2 millamp
stans transformer is a 5:1 comparing secondary to primary
this means that with chokes and secondary wired in series he has a 15:1
if he has 100 percent power transfer on the core then with 12 volts in the transformer should be able to get 180 volts out at the least..
we know stan has a 10.5 ohm primary and a 72.5 ohm secondary
we know that stan used a 20 ohm resistor in parallel with primary giving 6.8 ohms resistance
the series chokes add up to around 218 ohms
ok 12 volts to the primary which has 6.8 ohms of parallel resistance
12v / 6.8 ohms = 1.76 amps
the resistor has twice the resistance then the coil so the coil accounts for 1/3 of the current
1.76amps / 3 = .58 amps
12v x .58 amps = 6.96 watts
so lets see if we can calculate the power in secondary..
if you are getting 100 percent power transfer in the core then the secondary will receive 6.96 watts of total force
6.96 watts / 180 volts = 38 millamps
*Note* Not sure if any of this is correct also just because i say 180v output of the secondary does not mean thats the total voltage reached.. it is more or less the force applied during step charging..
heres a pic of my vic
I made the core out of a microwave transformer core.. I do not think there is enough interaction with the core and the winds because i do not get total suspected output.. my furthest wind from secondary reads about 4 volts while the secondary will read 18 and the one on the same ucore as primary reads around 7 volts.. the voltage reading being at the highest achievable output in the frequency range of 1-10khz
I am using 30gauge my secondary is 3000 winds as are my chokes.. they read about 75 ohms
my primary is 500 and it reads about 10 ohms
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/outlawstc/water%20fuel%20tech/101_1736.jpg)
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How much energy in watts per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell.
lets go with some information provided by stans control driver circuit international patent,
stan says at start up the vic will consume about 25 milliamps through the water
Stan states that in a resonant condition current leakage across the cell is 1-2 millamp
stans transformer is a 5:1 comparing secondary to primary
this means that with chokes and secondary wired in series he has a 15:1
if he has 100 percent power transfer on the core then with 12 volts in the transformer should be able to get 180 volts out at the least..
we know stan has a 10.5 ohm primary and a 72.5 ohm secondary
we know that stan used a 20 ohm resistor in parallel with primary giving 6.8 ohms resistance
the series chokes add up to around 218 ohms
ok 12 volts to the primary which has 6.8 ohms of parallel resistance
12v / 6.8 ohms = 1.76 amps
the resistor has twice the resistance then the coil so the coil accounts for 1/3 of the current
1.76amps / 3 = .58 amps
12v x .58 amps = 6.96 watts
so lets see if we can calculate the power in secondary..
if you are getting 100 percent power transfer in the core then the secondary will receive 6.96 watts of total force
6.96 watts / 180 volts = 38 millamps
*Note* Not sure if any of this is correct also just because i say 180v output of the secondary does not mean thats the total voltage reached.. it is more or less the force applied during step charging..
heres a pic of my vic
I made the core out of a microwave transformer core.. I do not think there is enough interaction with the core and the winds because i do not get total suspected output.. my furthest wind from secondary reads about 4 volts while the secondary will read 18 and the one on the same ucore as primary reads around 7 volts.. the voltage reading being at the highest achievable output in the frequency range of 1-10khz
I am using 30gauge my secondary is 3000 winds as are my chokes.. they read about 75 ohms
my primary is 500 and it reads about 10 ohms
@outlawstc,
Hey, that's the same I get when I used a iron core. Too low voltage from the secondary coil. That core didn't do anything, so I got ferrite core.
I wound 2000 turn secondary (0.25mm2) and have 200 turn primary (0.6mm2) and get about 150V out. Rewinding the primary...
My core is 8mm round.
My secondary core resonates at 13kHz. When I connect the two chokes (also 2000turns each 0.25mm2) it resonates at 2.5kHz.
Also keep minimal spacing between the chokes and (secondary and primary) on both sides of the U-core legs behaves different.
When too much separated, there are magnetic losses. I have 40mm spacing (measured between center of the coils)
Great setup, wfc and vic outlawstc! :-X How/where did you made the bobbins?
Is it correct that your wfc cell capacitance is in the nano farads?
br,
Webmug
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my meter is a VC6243
I get 130 uF with rain water, measuring just one tube on my tubular array, 0.0625 gap
i'm just wondering what kind of inductance to look for, to target 10,000 hz resonance
do a google search for "ring core calculator" this program is very useful to find resonance based on any parameters like frequency and inductance to find cap or cap and ind. to find freq. res etc...
the menu bar at the top of the program has this helpful utility to find resonant circuit values!
hope this helps...
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The 220 ohm resistors were like I said wired across the primary coil(parallel).A friend had talked with a coil manufacture,and they told him that 10.5 ohms coil would get hot,then he asked them what would happen if you were to wire a 220 ohm resistor across it,and he stated that it would run cooler.Not my words.
As for the NVR1550 diode,there is actually a MUR1550 and a MUR1560.The first is a 500 volt,and the second was a 600 volt.
Kali,as for your explaination of the voltage step up up 1:5 with 12 volts in and 60 volts out was a little confusing.But I believe I understand what you were getting at.
You are stating that if you apply 12 volts to the primary coil,with a step up ratio of 1:5 you will then get 60 volts out to the blocking diode.Now in my testing of my coils,I have a step up ratio of 1:10 or as I would put it 10:1.So if I apply 12 volts to my primary I should get 120 volts out of the secondary.Right?
Well when I test the output of my secondary without any load on it,I get a much greater step up than 10:1.I've seen several hundred volts.No just maybe that is what Stan is hoping for with his set up.Maybe because we are restricting amps with the choke coils that this high voltage from our secondary is able to stay high,because of the very low load.
Under normal step up coils we are appling loads to the secondary output which pulls the voltage down to the actual ratio of the steup.So just maybe with the chokes restricting the amps,we are able to keep this higher voltage than the stepup ratio produces.Maybe it has something to do with the coils all being on the same core that allows this greater voltage to be produce.
Now again with my coil set up,of 100 turns primary,1000 turns secondary,and 2000 turns chokes,I have seen between 1kv-2kv at the cell.It it hasn't had any ill effect on the blocking diode.And my diode is the same rating as a MUR1560.
Thats some of my thoughts on this matter as I have seen it with my own testing.
Don
look at it this way... 1000 secondary plus 2000 choke 1 plus 2000 choke 2 equals 5000 turns since they are connected in series
therefore the 5000 / 100 primary = 50 to 1 ratio step up
therefore 12 volts in equals 600 volts out !
MUR 1560 !
and maybe the 2 for 1 pulses makes the final voltage @ 1200 volts average!
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Yea I referred to this is an earlier post about the VIC. Look at the excerpt from one his Patent 92007861 below. He's basically saying the Sec. = 10X Primary and the same for the chokes and then he's just combining them and saying 30:1 step-up.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/patent_92007861.PNG)
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Tonny, the charging circuit eliminates the limitation of the ratio, Because you start to have what is called a current source... The voltage of the secondary will be high but the charging choke can let you charge the capaxitor up to 100kv even if is not this ratio between the primary and secondary, depends only on the losses..
I was thinking to buy a polipropilene tube to make the cell in it.. _This would allow very high voltage. Basically the capacitance of the cell must be greater than the self capacitance of the resonant coil...
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Thank you Don! That will make it a lot easier to build this!
What about Figure 2: Gas feedback control circuit,
Figure 11: Digital Control Means, I think this is inside the laser accelerator?
Do you have any pictures of the cards inside that GMS unit?
Here is a better version of Stan's Figure 2 circuit
(he did some safety stuff with inverted optoschmitt inputs in case a led burnt out the engine wouldnt race... but this version simplifies that with only one multiplexor)
enjoy
It works!
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the MUR 1560 is a 15 amp diode, 600 volt. do we need 15 amp diodes? any comments on that?
there is a MUR something with 1000 volts and 8 amps for $1.33 each, is 8 amps enough?
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The high amperage rating is because you will have very high frequency and therefore the capacitance of the diode must discharge and will discharge in the diode itself, if your diode don't support the amperage of the discharges it will get too hot and blowout. I used 3 4007 diodes in parallel and work fine in the vic...
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I made the core out of a microwave transformer core..
IMHO this core is not really usable for this application, for the laminations are way too thick (as it's designed for 60Hz). You will get too much eddy currents at the proposed frequencies and therefore will have too many losses, which will result in a small q-factor.
As I already mentioned before: If you wanna take a laminated steel core, the laminations have to be thin. Just look at Stans steel-core: There the laminations were also thin. But I think also, that a Ferrite-core is probably a simpler solution. The main difference is, that the steel-core has much higher saturation values, but a smaller permeability, whereas for ferrite, this is usually the opposite (high permeability, low saturation)
How much energy in watts per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell.
Ahh, BTW. I just remembered, that Stan himself calculated the efficiency of his early cell in the independent evaluation report. There he calculated something like an efficiency factor of 300 times (input vs output).
I used 3 4007 diodes in parallel and work fine in the vic...
I absolutely wouldn't recommend using any 1N400X in any power switching supply. They are intended mainly as rectifier diodes for mains applications (60Hz). Their switching time is about 1000 times slower than that of a MUR.
Why not using UF400X diodes, if money is short. They are also quite cheap, and much faster. Or did you already use the UF-types?
EDIT:
I finally found now some time to have another short look at the original VIC-board.
A few things are interesting.
First, it is really exactly the circuit from the patent (WO9207861).
Second. The designer of the board made a layout error. The primary driving circuit, as it is in the patent is correct. But the board layout is wrong. The two resistors for the first transistor are connected the wrong way around. Therefore Stan had to wire the VCO-Out directly to the correct resistor.
I already thought it very strange, that Stan added these dividers for the PLL-Signal in the patent circuit. As this wouldn't make any sense, to divide the signal here, as the pickup-signal and the driving signal have the same frequency. But as can be seen on the original board, he didn't use them. He just used them to divide the signal down for display on the LED, for nothing else...
One thing is still strange. Namely that he wired the neg of the primary over an RC-damper to the comparator input. First I thought he wired it to the VCO-out, but it only looks like that on first sight (quite hard to differentiate the two blue wires).
Finally one could say, that today, one would really just replace almost the complete board by just one microcontroller. Only the Pickup-Signal, and some driving circuitry would be additionally needed. The driving of the primary one would most probably do with a FET and some special FET-driver-IC (much simpler, than this cascade of transistors).
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here are some of the circuits that I have almost complete and ready for testing. Pictured below are the Resonant Scanning Circuit and Pulse Indicator Circuit.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Pulse_Indicator_Circuit_top.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Resonant_Scanning_Circuit_top.jpg)
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I also used a capacitor like that for my resonant scanning circuit =)
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I made the core out of a microwave transformer core..
IMHO this core is not really usable for this application, for the laminations are way too thick (as it's designed for 60Hz). You will get too much eddy currents at the proposed frequencies and therefore will have too many losses, which will result in a small q-factor.
As I already mentioned before: If you wanna take a laminated steel core, the laminations have to be thin. Just look at Stans steel-core: There the laminations were also thin. But I think also, that a Ferrite-core is probably a simpler solution. The main difference is, that the steel-core has much higher saturation values, but a smaller permeability, whereas for ferrite, this is usually the opposite (high permeability, low saturation)
How much energy in watts per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell.
Ahh, BTW. I just remembered, that Stan himself calculated the efficiency of his early cell in the independent evaluation report. There he calculated something like an efficiency factor of 300 times (input vs output).
I used 3 4007 diodes in parallel and work fine in the vic...
I absolutely wouldn't recommend using any 1N400X in any power switching supply. They are intended mainly as rectifier diodes for mains applications (60Hz). Their switching time is about 1000 times slower than that of a MUR.
Why not using UF400X diodes, if money is short. They are also quite cheap, and much faster. Or did you already use the UF-types?
EDIT:
I finally found now some time to have another short look at the original VIC-board.
A few things are interesting.
First, it is really exactly the circuit from the patent (WO9207861).
Second. The designer of the board made a layout error. The primary driving circuit, as it is in the patent is correct. But the board layout is wrong. The two resistors for the first transistor are connected the wrong way around. Therefore Stan had to wire the VCO-Out directly to the correct resistor.
I already thought it very strange, that Stan added these dividers for the PLL-Signal in the patent circuit. As this wouldn't make any sense, to divide the signal here, as the pickup-signal and the driving signal have the same frequency. But as can be seen on the original board, he didn't use them. He just used them to divide the signal down for display on the LED, for nothing else...
One thing is still strange. Namely that he wired the neg of the primary over an RC-damper to the comparator input. First I thought he wired it to the VCO-out, but it only looks like that on first sight (quite hard to differentiate the two blue wires).
Finally one could say, that today, one would really just replace almost the complete board by just one microcontroller. Only the Pickup-Signal, and some driving circuitry would be additionally needed. The driving of the primary one would most probably do with a FET and some special FET-driver-IC (much simpler, than this cascade of transistors).
SIR,
from my analysis of the control circuits figs 2 thru 11, i have used multisim student edition to try and determine the component values that were in the circuits... i came up with some very interesting scope simulations at the WFC.
the figs 2, 3 &4 would take the variable duty cycle input from the accelerator and produce a variable voltage from a configurable low value for idle , say 3 volts to a maximum of say 12 volts across the range of the throttle pedal. this was done using a darlington pair at the high side of the primary
the clock cycle was the interesting part as to how it timed the high side of the coil as well as the low side thru the pll
the result was the q9 (tip120) would fire at the same time as the darlington pair on the positive side of the coil...made for some interesting waveforms...i have those files if anyone would like to view them...
could never really figure out the scanning circuit.... got a triangle waveform that would give a gradually increasing voltage fed to the vco of the 4046 to vary the lock in frequencies...
also the pickup circuit could be eiether a opamp or a comparator... i guess the comparator would stabilize the signal to something useable for pin 14 of the PLL chip
any thoughts?
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here are some of the circuits that I have almost complete and ready for testing. Pictured below are the Resonant Scanning Circuit and Pulse Indicator Circuit.
would you mind posting the schematics for those boards??
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yea look at this thread, i have the schematic posted for the pulse indicator circuit and the signal and how it works.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5 (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5)
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also the pickup circuit could be eiether a opamp or a comparator... i guess the comparator would stabilize the signal to something useable for pin 14 of the PLL chip
any thoughts?
The OpAmp is just used as a Schmitt-Trigger. If the voltage from the pickup-coil is positive, it will output a high signal. If it's negative, it will output a low signal for the PLL. With the 1M/100K feedback you adjust the hysteresis.
Edit:
It's interesting. As I looked again at the original VIC-PCB, I discovered, that not even the LED is connected to the dividers. The LED is directly connected to the signal (the orange/white wire on the bottom left). This actually means, that the 3 divider chips were not used at all.
It's also funny to note, that it seems the Inhibit signal, that's coming in from the external control, seems to have a different voltage level. Therefore he needed to add a level translator (Pullup with a germanium diode, in the lower left).
Edit2:
Seems like the server is having some real problems, the last few days, or is it just me?
I thought again about the strange feedback wiring into the comparator of the PLL, that Stan made (the second blue wire). IMHO there's only one good explanation for this workaround, and why he didn't connect the output of the VCO to the comparator input (like it is usally done, and like in the patent pic). He uses quite a transistor cascade. If the driving delay is too big, then the comparator would already see quite some phase differences between this signal and the pickup-signal. Like that e.g. the Lock-in detector could then detect a not locked-position, although the resonance frequency is hit. If you connect directly the driving voltage of the primary to the comparator, then you certainly get rid of this transistor driving signal delay.
But on the other hand, one must remember, that the voltage on the primary can get quite strongly negative if the VIC is in resonance (it can't get a high positive voltage, due to the freewheeling diode). So this voltage would somehow have to be clamped. Surely the CDs do have internal clamping diodes, but I'm not sure if they could withstand this amount of current, as there's only a quite small resistor in series.
So either the green thing, which looks like a capacitor is a capacitor and is just filtering the input a bit, or it is a varistor. In the first case, the CDs internal diode would have to clamp the signal, but the signal is filtered. in the other case the varistor would do the clamping, but there wouldn't be a filtering.
It's also to mention that this workaround is not really very proper, as it can in some circumstances yield quite some problems in the working of the comparator, as the voltage on the primary could also have some higher harmonics. If he really did it because of the delay, then an usual delay network would probably have been the better solution.
Edit3:
As I thought again about it, I came to the conclusion that it's most probably is a capacitor. For if he really wanted to clamp it additionally he would've taken a diode.
Edit4:
After having some more time to look at the VIC-PCB and do some power-routing coloring I finally realized, that there was no layout mistake. I just thought this at first, but it misled me, that Stan used to wire the gating signal over the connection port and not directly on the PCB. But not to have to wire it externally it seems, that he decided to wire it directly on the PCB by the blue wire.
I'm still asking myself, where exactly the red wire is connected (the one which is connected to the RC-Damper which is the input for the comparator). But it's now past midnight...I will look again at it tomorrow.
If anyone is interested, this is my "modified" version of the VIC-PCB-pic. I take no responsibility for any errors ;D (especially the power routing around the driving circuit and the analog voltage is a bit weird, there could well be some errors in my pic, and overall the coloring of the power routing is not yet complete!)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9059/meyerspics69powerroutin.jpg)
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Here is the complete figure 8 as verified by signal analysis in Multisim based on components from the photo
( it puts out the required sawtooth waveform... accept NO substitutes... this part is LOCKED DOWN folks!)
Yahoo !
working on a complete multisim circuit for Vic Card photo will post work in progress soon
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Ali,the VCC for Stans VIC circuit was 12 volts and VDD was 5 volts.The first two resistors are 220k and the cap is 10uF.
Don
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Ali,the VCC for Stans VIC circuit was 12 volts and VDD was 5 volts.The first two resistors are 220k and the cap is 10uF.
Don
OOPS !
my oversight is acknowledged, thank you sir!
I will make the changes and correct...
as far as the cap on pins 6 & 2 i think 1.0 uf makes more sense because it allows a higher frequency for the scanner to lock the VCO in less time, thereby following resonance more closely
Any opinions from anyone else on this?
@Don... ? are the photos you post allowed to be shared with others on the net or do you frown on sharing this stuff ?
thanks for all you did and are doing... our country needs to be free from Oil Addiction ASAP !
EDIT:
fixed the VCC issue
went back to the original 10VDC at the top of the resistor dividers for pin 3 of the LM741 on fig 8 as well, the result was a sawtooth wave with a peak of about 5 volts and a valley of about 2.5 volts. I hope this is what we need for the VCO input on pin 9 of the 4046
see images below regarding the 555 timing
with the scope set at 1 second per division horizontally the difference is very noticeable
I vote for the 1.0uf cap for a closer tracking of the WFC resonance
the 10uf takes too long to charge resulting in a huge delay...
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That capacitor is a polarized 10uF, the scan time is set to 0.219 Hz. Also here's how you decode the precision resistors that Stan used.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/res_prec.gif)
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Ali,I don't care if you post my pics anywhere else.They'll get around sooner or later.
Don
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Ali,I don't care if you post my pics anywhere else.They'll get around sooner or later.
Don
Here is a photoshop edit of the VIC card to help with figuring out the backside...
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That capacitor is a polarized 10uF, the scan time is set to 0.219 Hz.
May i ask if we are speaking of the same component? im looking at the dark blue electrolytic to the right of the 555, the glare does not allow us to determine exactly if it's a 1.0 or a 10 u... how did you get that value for the scan time?
My multisim scope shots in a previous post show a very slow scan time with a 10u
please help?
im confused
can the resonance afford to wait over a few seconds to readjust the lock in?
Thanks for your posts and your excellent web site!
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Yes sir, Thats the cap Im talking about also. if you close you can see that its a 10uF 25v polarized cap. The scanning circuit has an on-time of 3 sec. and an off-time of 1.5 sec. this will cause a modulation of the frequency and coincides with what Puharich says about the voltage modulation of 3 sec. or 0.125 Hz - 0.250 Hz, which is the Nuclear Magnetic Relaxation time of the water molecule. The 1.5 sec. off-time allows the water molecule to recover. Heres what i have together as of right now, one photo has the component values and the other has the bottom traces overlaying the component side of the board.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/VIC_Card_values.PNG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/VIC_Card_com-side_with_Trace.PNG)
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Yes sir, Thats the cap Im talking about also. if you close you can see that its a 10uF 25v polarized cap. The scanning circuit has an on-time of 3 sec. and an off-time of 1.5 sec. this will cause a modulation of the frequency and coincides with what Puharich says about the voltage modulation of 3 sec. or 0.125 Hz - 0.250 Hz, which is the Nuclear Magnetic Relaxation time of the water molecule. The 1.5 sec. off-time allows the water molecule to recover. Heres what i have together as of right now, one photo has the component values and the other has the bottom traces overlaying the component side of the board.
i thought the scanning time was required to be very fast so that the PLL could find the resonant frequency that gives lowest amps and that frequency was related to a range of frequencies between 1 and 10 khz, therefore the VCO (voltage controlled oscillator) needed a range of voltages to scan for a lock frequency, this is why the waveform from the scanning circuit has a ramp voltage from 2.5 volts to 5 volts and then back again until the PLL locks, it should happen as fast as possible because the cell may go out of resonance within 1/2 second.
the scan time has nothing to do with the nuclear magnetic relaxation time of water and everything to do with the voltages required at pin 9 of the 4046 chip
Am i wrong?
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all the voltages from the output of the gated pulsed via the transistor (vee/vcc) are 12v. The scanning range is set by pin 4 and the 4017, so for example the pulses that come out at pin 4 go to the 4017 which will be divided by 10 and are then sent back into the PLL via pin 3 and also these pulses are being fed back in with the gate pulse via pin 5. but the pulses coming straight out pin 4 could be 1khz -10khz and then once they go through the 1st 4017 its range is 100hz - 1khz and so on.
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Ali,the scan from this circuit took about 3 seconds like Tony says.I seen it working first hand.And the scan didn't go from 0-10khz.It had a center adjust pot on the board,that allowed you to raise or lower the frequency range.For example the the scan may go from 2khz to 8khz,then if you adjust the pot up so it starts at 4khz than it will go to 10hz.So it could go as low as 0kz and up to 10khz,but not in one setting.
Tony,the 4017 weren't even hooked up on this board and they don't effect the output in any way.
Ali,the cap is a 10 uF.I have a better picture of it.
Don
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yea I noticed that there was no connection to the 4017's....My guess based on Stan and Puharich's writings is that the center frequency is 3980 Hz. So if you have the frequency set to scanning a range of +- 2000 hz from this center frequency it would be 1980 Hz - 5980 H. By setting it up this way you will have waveform that would look like the image below and it would peak at the center frequency.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Freq_Burst.png)
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I think the scanning circuit can work much faster than 3 sec.
I think that i drop into something here check this out and tell me what you think.
What if we make tx2 + tx4 (mutual coupling) = to tx5 coil
(tx5 is field adding too)
So now we have two coils of equal length.
they converge where the tx5 meets tx2 and in the tubes. (a diode could be used there to block the discharge in reverse polarity but maybe is not needed, however stan used this in the vic sink circuit.
If you make the outside capacitance to be connected to this point where tx5 meets tx2 you close a unipolar resonant pulsing core. And i explain to you why.
When the pulse is first applied there will be B+ in the cell and a B- But the outside container will be at 0v relative to both potentials. Obviously will be more positive than the negative and more negative than the positive. Now if you think of the diode you will notice that when the pulse terminates I think that the positive will become negative source of electrons so they will go toward the 0v... creating another pulse of same polarity...
Would be useful to add another coil in a separated induction core between the vic and the outside of the cell so you can reduce the frequency while not changing the ratio between the tx coils. i think that would be what stan call the amp inhibiting coil. Also in the alternator.
I noticed some similarities...
I think that both chokes and the secondary acts not only as secondary but as a primary also during pulsing operations, inducing and being induced, the diode and the configuration allow the field to be unipolar therefore never changing direction if at resonance, varying the flux still by the pulses and resonance itself but never changing direction.
would be clear that a way to detect if there is bipolar pulses would be a good way to detect resonance. But i still think that this could be only used as a reset, cause the best way to have a nice feedback would be to get it from a current transformer, or a coil wounded in the bipolar resonating coil tx6 amp inhibiting coil.
The tx5 i supposed that should be little bigger than the other two cause this would encourages the discharge to come thru the other electrode. Well, i don't know, need to do more experiments. Tomorrow i will try some other things. Maybe thats why he talked about acomodating to the contaminants of the water. Maybe depending on the water the tx5 coil must be bigger or smaller than tx2+tx4 and also both this could maybe need or not other coil configurations....
So
tx1 primary
tx2 secondary (having its positive connected to a diode D1 and the negative connected to the positive of the tx5 choke thru a diode or not)
tx3 pulse indicator coil
tx4 resonant changing choke, (the diode D1 coming from secondary positive is connected to the negative side of the tx4 choke, the positive side is connected than to the outer tube )
tx5 resonant charging choke (have its negative side connected to the inner tube, and its positive connected to a diode D2 witch is than serially connected to the negative side of the secondary and to tx6 coil.
tx6 amp inhibiting coil (in a separated core) connected between the point where tx2 negative side and the diode D2 meets and also connected to the earth ground.
tx7 tuning variable coil (connected between tx5 coil and the cell)
The cell must have a copper foil around it to form the resonant capacitor. This copper foil is connected to earth ground to complete the resonant circuit.
The tx6 coil could have a section of the primary wounded on it, this would help to neutralize the voltage for the next pulse.
thats all folks
BR
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Heres another pic
Don
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Figure 9 Pulser Indicator circuit verified using multisim 11
See attached circuit:
enjoy
(@ don, @ tony...hope it meets with your approval)
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Figure 9 Pulser Indicator circuit verified using multisim 11
See attached circuit:
enjoy
(@ don, @ tony...hope it meets with your approval)
Hey Ali, try this one out. only half the feedback coil was being used.
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Hi Tony,
can you upload the file in multisim 10 format because I can not open it with version 10 ?
Hm
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Figure 9 Pulser Indicator circuit verified using multisim 11
See attached circuit:
enjoy
(@ don, @ tony...hope it meets with your approval)
Hey Ali, try this one out. only half the feedback coil was being used.
I wish i knew electronics cawz ive been searching this week how to get the waveform u made with that adding em together :)
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Hey Ali, try this one out. only half the feedback coil was being used.
why did you add the cap?
what was the reason for the am wave ?
on the real VIC coil, do we need the 5 volts center tap or even the 5 volts at all?
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The cap is in VIC circuit, its there to block the straight lying 5v DC and to allow the pulsed DC to past so that it doesn't short out. The reason I also added the AM signal is because at resonance that's the wave you should get.
Yes I have this file in Multisim 10 also, here it is below.
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Here are some prototype pics of the 5 coil VIC bobbins that I had made today. I used AutoCAD to draw them up and then transferred the drawing to a 3D printer which made them out of ABS Plastic. It took about 8 hours for these to be made.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_1.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_2.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_3.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_4.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_5.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_6.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5vic_bobbin_7.jpg)
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Here are some prototype pics of the 5 coil VIC bobbins that I had made today. I used AutoCAD to draw them up and then transferred the drawing to a 3D printer which made them out of ABS Plastic. It took about 8 hours for these to be made.
Looks really cool! Doesn't matter to me how long it takes to make the bobbins, it took me 3 days to glue mine, nice ones.
Would you share that CAD file here on the forum?
What core material did you use in those bobbins?
Br,
Webmug
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Nice work Tony,
Thanks for the file btw
hm
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Compliments tony. ;)
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Thanks guys, they did turn out really nice. The cores are made of powder iron. Here are the measurements of the bobbins.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5coilVIC_bobbin_measurements.png)
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I've almost go the VIC Circuit together and ready for testing. Here's a pic of the PLL, Scanning, Pulse Indicator and Gated Pulse Generator circuits.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/VIC_Circuit.jpg)
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Here are some images of the 5 coil VIC that I made along with the cores. I just need to order the wire and wrap the coils now. Hopefully I'll have this done by the time I finish up the circuit.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/SDC10825.JPG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/SDC10826.JPG)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/SDC10827.JPG)
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@Tony
Nice work on the pcb's and VIC bobbins!
I'm very curious how that flat iron powder core is going to preform when pulsed...
I'm searching for iron powder plate/rod material/core, don't want to make one with powder myself.
br,
Webmug
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very nice work tony !
are the cores custoum made?
I think that figs.2,3,6,11,12 are all part of the GMS unit(dashboard box)
I am trieng to figure out what the A26 chip of the "gated pulse frequency generator" (fig6) might be. Any ideas ?
hydrogenmask
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Yea I referred to this is an earlier post about the VIC. Look at the excerpt from one his Patent 92007861 below. He's basically saying the Sec. = 10X Primary and the same for the chokes and then he's just combining them and saying 30:1 step-up.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/patent_92007861.PNG)
Tony did you noticed that he is talking about secondary to choke ratio and not primary to secondary?
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very nice work tony !
are the cores custoum made?
I think that figs.2,3,6,11,12 are all part of the GMS unit(dashboard box)
I am trieng to figure out what the A26 chip of the "gated pulse frequency generator" (fig6) might be. Any ideas ?
hydrogenmask
Yea the IC for the "Gated Pulse Frequency Generator" is a 74122 =)
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that is fast as a reply!
rettigerable monostable multivibrator
I`m still confused how to connect this thing up!
I will appreciate if you can help me out Tony
HM
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I've edited your schematic and added the pin numbers.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/wo92-6.jpg)
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very nice work tony !
are the cores custoum made?
I think that figs.2,3,6,11,12 are all part of the GMS unit(dashboard box)
I am trieng to figure out what the A26 chip of the "gated pulse frequency generator" (fig6) might be. Any ideas ?
hydrogenmask
Yea the IC for the "Gated Pulse Frequency Generator" is a 74122 =)
Have you seen the circuits inside the dashboard GMS unit?
DOnt think the 74122 is correct its most likely a 555
also the schematic is wrong, those "AND" logic pairs should actually be XNORS it was drawn wrong... but in all actuality thesse can be omitted
because theres no real need for them and the capacitor between wont allow them to work
i believe this was some patent misdirection to keep the technology protected
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No I've never seen any of the circuits in the GMS. It's definitely not a 555, for one he shows in the schematic that there are 10 connections, a 555 only has 8 pins. The reason for the logic gates and the capacitor are to convert the duty cycles of the incoming puts to a very short pulse duty cycle to be used as a trigger for the 74122 chip. Once I finish putting this circuit together, I will show u guys what I'm talking about.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/fig6_trigger.PNG)
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No I've never seen any of the circuits in the GMS. It's definitely not a 555, for one he shows in the schematic that there are 10 connections, a 555 only has 8 pins. The reason for the logic gates and the capacitor are to convert the duty cycles of the incoming puts to a very short pulse duty cycle to be used as a trigger for the 74122 chip. Once I finish putting this circuit together, I will show u guys what I'm talking about.
@ Tony:
Thanks for being understanding...ive been trying to figure this control circuit out for a year or more...
heres a question to consider based on the diagram attached...
If Fig. (12 or 9xB) is the clock that times the whole circuit... that goes to point "G"
Point "G" is the Figure 2 "GAS PEDAL" mechanical PWM
Stans design used a variable duty cycle to provide more or less hydroxy gas based on throttle position
point "G" becomes a 10% - 90% duty cycle at a given clock frequency which is sent to TWO outputs ( M & M1 )
"M" goes on the top side of the VIC through fig 3 & 4 to create a variable voltage which is adjustable to provide a minimum idle speed at the low end and a maximum 12 volts at the passing speed / full throttle / 90% duty cycle setting
"M1" goes to the bottom side through figure 6 and on to PLL / resonant scanner / pulse pickup / and the result goes to the bottom or "Ground" / "negative" side of the VIC coil through Fig 5
Here is the question... if the clock frequency at the input of figure2 is fixed and the pulse width is variable at the same clock frequency... wont the trigger from the NORs on fig6 stay at a fixed frequency regardless of the throttle position
therefore wont the gating be fixed?
I believe the gating of the signal going into or stepping on the PLL frequency needed to follow the figure 2 Pulse Width to provide a Hydrogen output range from idle to full W.O.T. ( wide open throttle)???
SO the way i see it is this, there are 3 parameters at work in the system:
1. variable positive voltage tied to gas pedal from 1, 2, or 3 volts to 12 ( based on idle requirement) to top of coil
2. resonant frequency based on pulse pickup being generated and sent to figure 5 via PLL ( not controlled by figure 2)
3. additional gas output control based on variable GATING that "steps on " the PLL signal sent to figure 5 that is determined by Figure 2 PWM or throttle position
do i have the flow chart figured out correctly?
( see attached)
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ok let me see if I can answer these questions for ya. Fig. 12 generates the gate frequency, lets say 500 Hz @ 50% duty cycle, which is then sent to fig. 2 via input "G". The duty cycle of this frequency will then be varied from 10% - 90% depending on the W.O.T. and rotation speed of the Distributor LED pickups. All these combined will determine the amount of voltage being applied to the Primary coil. This same frequency from fig. 12 will be sent to fig. 6 via input "B" or from fig. 2 via input "M1". This 500 Hz frequency's duty cycle is then manually set between 10% - 90% duty cycle independent of fig. 2. This variable gated pulse is then input into the PLL circuit via pin 5 through the two NOR gates and if you notice at the 2nd NOR gate u have the resonant frequency being NORed will the gate pulse. The PLL will output the the resonant frequency at pin 4 which is then routed back through pin 3 and into the 2nd NOR gate. The truth table for a NOR gate shows that you will get a HIGH only when both inputs are LOW. So the longer the gate pulse time is off, the more resonant pulses you will get into pin 5 via the NOR gate. This resonant frequency is steadily being match with the frequency from the feedback which is sent into the PLL via pin 14. Hope this helped answer some of your questions. I will try to draw up a logical output for the circuit and post it on here sometime this week.
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Eccelent general explanation, tony.
Yesterday I had some time to examin the circuit board pictures.
1/ What I`v noticed as Dynadon pointed out was that there is another 741 connected in parallel with the A25(741) of fig4. however still there is no extra connection for the input of the extra opamp!( extra J input if you like). pin 3 seems to be connected to a 47k and then to Vdd.
2/ fig7 4017 dividers are not connected ok, but how and were pll pin 4 is connected to pin 5 I cannot locate. were is it?
HM
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Eccelent general explanation, tony.
Yesterday I had some time to examin the circuit board pictures.
1/ What I`v noticed as Dynadon pointed out was that there is another 741 connected in parallel with the A25(741) of fig4. however still there is no extra connection for the input of the extra opamp!( extra J input if you like). pin 3 seems to be connected to a 47k and then to Vdd.
2/ fig7 4017 dividers are not connected ok, but how and were pll pin 4 is connected to pin 5 I cannot locate. were is it?
HM
here is a circuit to work with for the VIC CARD for multisim 11, many of the traces have been figured out but not 100% yet
please contribute and re-post !
thanks
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hydrogenmask,pin 3 of the PLL 4046 is the comparator in pin.That signal comes right from the negative side of the primary coil through a 22k resistor.Thats the small blue jumper wire on the front of the VIC board.It also goes to the ANL/FREQ switch on the front panel,and then that signal goes to the BNC test connector for scope reading.
Pin 4 goes into G on the cell driver circuit,and pin 5 is the inhibit input from the 4001 from the Gate Pulse circuit A.
Pin 4 and 5 are not connected together anywhere.If someone shows it that way,their wrong.
The 4017's are not used.
Don
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this is what i came up with as the op amp side of the circuit
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/outlawstc/water%20fuel%20tech/opampsschematic.jpg)
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hydrogenmask,pin 3 of the PLL 4046 is the comparator in pin.That signal comes right from the negative side of the primary coil through a 22k resistor.Thats the small blue jumper wire on the front of the VIC board.It also goes to the ANL/FREQ switch on the front panel,and then that signal goes to the BNC test connector for scope reading.
Pin 4 goes into G on the cell driver circuit,and pin 5 is the inhibit input from the 4001 from the Gate Pulse circuit A.
Pin 4 and 5 are not connected together anywhere.If someone shows it that way,their wrong.
The 4017's are not used.
Don
sorry Don, I made a mistake in my post I meant connection between pin3 and pin4 not pin5.
should they be connected to each other?
to pin 3 I see the following:
I see a blue wire (1st to the left going to the first 10k resistor of the ''cell driver circuit'')
Then I also can see another blue wire that may be also connected but not shown clear (right one connected to the 22k and small cap) shown in pic below.
Can you confirm Don?
HM
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hydrogenmask,
Pins 3 and 4 of the 4046 are not connected to each other.
Pin 3 goes through a 22k resistor then hooks to the negative side of the primary coil,and does not go to ground like your drawing shows.The 22k resistor and the cap are not connected to each other either.The 22k resistor is just added on the board in a spot close to where it was needed.
Pin 4 of the 4046 goes to the input (G) of the cell driver circuit.
Thats just how I said it before.
Don
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this is what i came up with as the op amp side of the circuit
Top pin 1 in = ? signal, don't know what signal this one is
Top pin 2 in = + 5 volts in not connected to pin 3
Top pin 3 in = Battery +12 volts in, not connected to trace on board
Bottom pin 1 in = + 12 volts
Bottom pin 2 in = J input
Bottom pin 3 & 4 in = Ground
Don
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if you look at this pic where i have the bottom traces overlaying the top traces u can see that pin 3 of the 4046 is going to two locations. on the topside its going to the 10k resistor of the driver circuit and then splits to one output of the card and also to the base of the first transistor. Pin 3's bottom trace goes to pin 8 of the 4001 down by the scanning circuit and which is then NORed with another signal which is connected by a wire connected to the pin 9 then this signal comes out of pin 10 and then back up to pin 5 of the 4046.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/VIC_Card_com-side_with_Trace.PNG)
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Hi Don, Tony
Forget about my last post I had another mistake there as well.
I took another close look at the PCB. please look carefully at those 2 pics so to see exactly what is going to were!
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bottom layer is inverted so to match top layer layout.
Pin3 is going to 2 places
1) bottom layer - (pink) goes to pin8 of nor gate. (ok clear)
2) top layer - (red) goes to POINT-1 then blue wire to 10k resistor of driver circuit.
Pin4 is routed only on the top layer (yellow)
1) goes to first 4017 input pin14 (ok clear) but we do not care of that because it is clear that he is not using the 4017s
2) now look at the red circile, if you look closely there is a faint connection visible to POINT2. this goes to another blue wire that goes to a 22k resistor and a small ceramic capacitor.
Now as for the resistor and capacitor where are they connected to
the other side of the 22k resistor goes to -ve primary
the other side of the capacitor goes to the emiter of Q7 / 470ohm res / 0v
Please note that there is also a tiny red wire connected to the other side of the 22k resistor
HM
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hydrogenmask,your last picture is wrong.
The tiny red wire goes to the bnc test connector on the front of the panel to view the pulses.
Pin 4 goes to the blue wire which goes to the 10 k resistor,that is the signal "G" input to the Cell Driver Circuit.
Tony,pin 3 of the 4046 goes to the 22k resistor coming from the primary coil
Don
This post has been corrected 3-24-2011
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This is what I'm seeing in the circuit...is this what you guys are seeing???
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/PLL&CellDriver.PNG)
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Thanks Tony.
How about the cell driver resistors and transistors?
And how about the capacitor between the primary and the 0v?
I will check this. I will change the values of the pll circuit to this...
I did some tests here, found nothing yet, just blew two snubber capacitors... however for me seems that the variable resistor goes to pin 12 and not 11 cause i tested here and if the r1 is made to vary nothing happens at least here.
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Yes that`s it Tony.
The blue wire overlap was a bit tricky there.
This makes much more sense now!
Please discard my previous posts.
Any ideas of what capacitor values should we use?
HM
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I've edited your schematic and added the pin numbers.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/stanmeyer/wo92-6.jpg)
SN74123 would work because pins 1&2 are connected only one "A" input is required and pins 3&4 would be the single "B" input and pin 9 internal resistor is not used here so 74122 is not as good as 74123...
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figure 4 seems to have 4 op amps installed on the VIC CARD instead of 3, that leads me to believe that figure 3 was located elsewhere, on another controller...here is a multisim circuit of whats on the VIC CARD...exactly (almost) like the circuit on FIGURE 4 sheet.
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Hi ali,
can you please post the file in multisim version 10 format ?
hm
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Hi ali,
can you please post the file in multisim version 10 format ?
hm
Dont have the capability as im using the evaluation version, student edition ms11
sorry
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well my wire came in today so I successfully wrapped one choke by hand and it took me about 3 hrs to do...very tiring to do lol...but its with in range of Don's resistance measurements. It's 3,000 wraps and has a resistance of 75.5 Ohms. I compared it to Stan's VIC and it matches up perfect in size. Here's a picture of it.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/My_VIC_1-2.jpg)
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HI Tony
You can use hand drill to wrap the coils. Simply attach your bobbin in head drill and run drill by hand.
andy
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well my wire came in today so I successfully wrapped one choke by hand and it took me about 3 hrs to do...very tiring to do lol...but its with in range of Don's resistance measurements. It's 3,000 wraps and has a resistance of 75.5 Ohms. I compared it to Stan's VIC and it matches up perfect in size. Here's a picture of it.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/My_VIC_1-2.jpg)
Its one the the jobs i hate to do as well......
Looks good!
Steve
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hey tony look great! here is a tip, i wound on the 30 gage wire, at the end i soldiered on an 18 gage wire and then wrapped the 18 gage wire around 1-2 turns and taped it down securely, the 18 gage wire is easy to handle outside of the coil for making connections
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Hi everyone. Sorry to jump in late in the game, I've been looking for everyone at Waterfuelcell.org, guess I was at the wrong site. Seems like all the action is giong on here.
The VIC card has several different circuits as mentioned earlier. Page 3-30, figure 3-5 in the TB shows the VIC card, labeled Card L2 and the different circuits which are on that card.
I think the electrostatic filter is being overlooked here. We know the water capacitor exhibits leakage which is dependant on the water's purity. I have a picture of Stan's buggy with the WFC setup where he labeled all the components, including the electrostatic filter. It is also mentioned in the Tech Breif. Furthermore, JL naudin states on his WFC replication page that his replication only worked with distilled water, which I think is because he had such a low current to charge the cap the leakage prevented it from charging when he used tap water.
Don,
I have seen the pictures of the WFC and Water Capacitor...Does the delrin sleeve completly cover the outer tube?
Does anyone have the primary inductance measurements of the VIC? ,And know what Fres is? I thought I read earlier that the VIC Fres was 10kHz??? Looking at the size of the core it seems like the VA rating is probably quite low...
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Heres the finished product, looks almost like Stan's VIC.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5VIC_F4.jpg)
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/5VIC_F5.jpg)
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Tony, Awesome replication.
What did the inductance of each coil come out to be?
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Primary : 450 turns, 10?, Air Inductance 1.43mH, Core Inductance 8.01mH
Feedback : 450 turns, 10?, Air Inductance 2.98mH, Core Inductance 10.4mH
Secondary : 3000 turns, 78.2?, Air Inductance 87.2mH, Core Inductance 358mH
L1 : 3000 turns, 75.9?, Air Inductance 83.1mH, Core Inductance 359mH
L2 : 3000 turns, 76.9?, Air Inductance 85.5mH, Core Inductance 359mH
So the secondary side total inductance is 1076mH
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Primary : 450 turns, 10?, Air Inductance 1.43mH, Core Inductance 8.01mH
Feedback : 450 turns, 10?, Air Inductance 2.98mH, Core Inductance 10.4mH
Secondary : 3000 turns, 78.2?, Air Inductance 87.2mH, Core Inductance 358mH
L1 : 3000 turns, 75.9?, Air Inductance 83.1mH, Core Inductance 359mH
L2 : 3000 turns, 76.9?, Air Inductance 85.5mH, Core Inductance 359mH
So the secondary side total inductance is 1076mH
Nice work, can't wait to see it running!
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Tony you shouldn't think about total inductance exclusively (and not all coils fields aiding), you want to make the "secondary" inductance to be exactly the same of the chokes but maybe a bit smaller (probably because of the coupling, so you can have exactly the same voltage in the tuned and the secondary inductances, the tx4 must exactly cancel out the tx5 coil but there will be a minimum inductance, this becomes part of the secondary inductance, so must be taken in count. So basically the tx5 coil must have the same inductance of all the coils with the canceling coils connected all in series. Makes lot of sense for me.
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sebosfato,
I have been reading over your most recent posts and
It seems like we have come to the same conclusion as
To how the vic works. Have you had a successful replication?
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Today i matched the inductances the way i proposed and i got very very high voltage potentials, but not much gas, however you must know that is very very pure water about 3kohms resistance... if i pull any of the connections there is an arc very very hot arc it can make things red in seconds... I think that my coils inductances are too small so i'm designing a bigger one. I bought a sheet of nylon 0,6mm thickness, to make the bobbins, i will get some help from a machinist in the university that will cut the thing for me. Than i'm going to wind more and more wire.
I'm going to try with the other vic i have here with the closed loop core, and try to compare see what is happening.
Man the vic in the end must match the electrical resonance to be able to have 0 volts amper in the water, there is only fields.
Maybe my tubes are too big... If i had some money i would buy some more plastics to make the cell more a resonant cavity like proposed. Here i have a water bath.
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Does anyone have a schematic with component values for the resonant scanning cirucit. I'm trying it on multisim 11 (student version) and it's not working. All I'm getting is a constant frequency output from the 4066?
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HMS,
Here is what I have, I am unsure if it is the final version or not...
I have just begun construction - parts are enroute.
(Diagram originally from Tony)
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how bout at ther voltage ampltude control circuit... is its values floatin round somewer?
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Sorry, I just have the original patent diagram without values.
I'm still working on that one, and would also be interested in values myself ;)
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HMS,
Here is what I have, I am unsure if it is the final version or not...
I have just begun construction - parts are enroute.
(Diagram originally from Tony)
Actually i was the original author of that one...
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how bout at ther voltage ampltude control circuit... is its values floatin round somewer?
try this one... not sure but its a start
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Sorry, I just have the original patent diagram without values.
I'm still working on that one, and would also be interested in values myself ;)
some more info to play with
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Thanks Ali, I guess the source was lost in a quote of a quote of a quote - :P
Thanks for the new info - I'm sure lots of people will find the acceleration parts especially interesting...
I'm still waiting on parts before embarking into that area...
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The A22 on fig 4..... what could that possibly be?
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Thats a 5 volt regulator
Don
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Still no luck with the 5VIC. I've been trying to get high voltages out of it and have only been able to get around 40v at the output with the cell disconnected. With the cell connected Ive only be able to get around 8v. Anybody else with a similar 5VIC been able to get the need HV?
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Still no luck with the 5VIC. I've been trying to get high voltages out of it and have only been able to get around 40v at the output with the cell disconnected. With the cell connected Ive only be able to get around 8v. Anybody else with a similar 5VIC been able to get the need HV?
Not sure yet but have you ever tuned Bob Boyces circuits? Fig 12 has selector switches for each frequency ... just a thawt.
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Tony, have you tried to find the resonance frequency for your coil set up?
Your scanning circuit may not be in the proper range for your coils.
Don
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Yea I've tried all frequency ranges, I even replaced the 100nF cap between pins 6 & 7 of the 4046 to a 10nF so I could get higher frequency ranges.
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its actually a resonate circuit when you tune it like this or a form of amplitude modulation.Ive added fig 3,4,6,12 with the 8XA cell driver part.... check out the increase in amplitude on the frequency generator :) im try in to fix 3 and 4 now if you wanna have a go at it..... i dont know if the values on 3 and 4 are rite, Im searching now where those connections go ... the K10,K11,K3,K3.The sim shows it better if you unhook the scope leads and watch as you one at a time to each of the frequencies.I dont have my cell yet... old got trashed but.... i think the capacitor will act like a filter and without the frequencies adding like that in the sim on the FG then the resonace kills out rite.... just a thawt.
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Has anyone found wer connections K10,K11,K3,K3 from the FG go?
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K11 is G into figure 2 Digital Control Means
K10 is Q into Water Injector Circuit,not shown in schematics
K3 is B into figure 6 Gate Pulse Frequency Generator
The second K3 is actually K21 which is C into figure 7 Phase Lock Loop
Don
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K11 is G into figure 2 Digital Control Means
K10 is Q into Water Injector Circuit,not shown in schematics
K3 is B into figure 6 Gate Pulse Frequency Generator
The second K3 is actually K21 which is C into figure 7 Phase Lock Loop
Don
Thank You Mr.Don .
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K11 is G into figure 2 Digital Control Means
K10 is Q into Water Injector Circuit,not shown in schematics
K3 is B into figure 6 Gate Pulse Frequency Generator
The second K3 is actually K21 which is C into figure 7 Phase Lock Loop
Don
where exactly is k21 ?
don please post a schematic... i dont see it on figure 7
thanks
the only connections are:
A, E, F, G, H, L
???
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it looks like C is labled L on fig 8 into fig 7 ???
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Just forget about the last C circuit
Ali, all the circuit boards are labeled with the K1-K21
Don
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A while back I scoured the TB and control & driver circuits patent and came up with the following info:
Refer to Tech Brief Figures 3-2, 3-4, 3-5, 3-6 and Patent WO 92/07861
Circuit K1=Safety Control Circuit
Circuit K2=Variable Pulse Frequency Generator
Circuit K3=Gated Pulse Frequency Generator
Circuit K4=Cell Driver Circuit
Circuit K5=Voltage Intensifier Circuit
Circuit K6=?
Circuit K7=Laser Accelerator/Distributor Optoschmitt (Photodiode)
Circuit K8=Analog Voltage Generator
Cirucit K9=Voltage Amplitude Control
Circuit K10=Injector Circuit
Circuit K11=Acceleration Control Circuit
Cirucit K12=Laser Distributor
Circuit K13=Gas Injector Cirucit
Circuit K14=Pulse Indicator Circuit
Circuit K15=Gated Frequency Oscillator
Circuit K16=Dual Regulated Power Supply
Circuit K17=?
Circuit K18=?
Circuit K19=Exhaust & Air Gate Control Circuits
Circuit K20=Summing Circuits
Circuit K21=Phase Lock Loop Circuit
Card L1=Variable Pulse Frequency Generator (Circuit K2)
Card L2=?
Card L3=Gas Injector Card (Circuits K10, K13)
Card L4=Gated Pulse Frequency Generator (Circuit K3)
Card L5=Acceleration Card (Circuit K11)
Card L6=Dual Regulated Power Supply (Circuit K16)
Card L7=Gated Frequency Oscillator (Circuit K15)
Card L8=Laser Distributor Optoshmitts (photodiodes) (Circuits K7, K12)
Card L9=Safety Control Circuit (Circuit K1)
Card L10=Laser Accelerator Optoschmitts (photodiodes) (Circuits K7, K12)
Card L11=Analog Voltage Generator (Circuit K8)
Card L12=Voltage Intensifier Control (Circuits K4, K5, K9, K14, K21, and the EEC per Fig 3-2 Tech Brief)
I need help as the list is not complete. I have not determined what circuits K6, K17, and K18 are. I have not determined which circuits are on Card L2. And I have not determined which Card(s) the following circuits are on: K6, K17, K18, K19, K20.
I know of one cirucit for sure which is missing and it's probably K6, K17, or K18. That is the Gas Feedback Control Circuit (Figure 11) from the Control & Driver Circuits patent WO 92/07861
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Circuit K1= Figure 11 - Safety Control Circuit (L9)
Circuit K2= Figure 12 - Variable Pulse Frequency Generator (L1)
Circuit K3= Figure 6 - Gated Pulse Frequency Generator (L4)
Circuit K4= Figure 5 - Cell Driver Circuit (L12)
Circuit K5= VIC CARD - Voltage Intensifier Circuit (L12)
Circuit K6= ?
Circuit K7= - Laser Accelerator (only) (L10)
Circuit K8= Figure 3 - Analog Voltage Generator (L11)
Cirucit K9= Figure 4 - Voltage Amplitude Control (L12)
Circuit K10= - Injector Circuit (L3)
Circuit K11= Figure 2 - Digital Control Means (Accel) (L5)
Cirucit K12= - Laser Distributor (only) (L8)
Circuit K13= - Gas Injector Circuit (L3)
Circuit K14= Figure 9 - Pulse Indicator Circuit (pulse pickup) (L12)
Circuit K15= - Gated Frequency Oscillator (L7)
Circuit K16= - Dual Regulated Power Supply (L6)
Circuit K17= ?
Circuit K18= ?
Circuit K19= - Exhaust & Air Gate Control Circuits
Circuit K20= - Summing Circuits
Circuit K21= Figure 7 - Phase Lock Loop Circuit (L12)
Circuit K22= Figure 8 - Resonant Scanning Circuit (L12)
8)
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Just forget about the last C circuit
Ali, all the circuit boards are labeled with the K1-K21
Don
PS
figure 7 refers to K22 which is Figure 8...
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can someone share fig 7 and fig 8 on multisim 11? I think with those 2 circuits I can continue .
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I can get ya figure 8, but figure 7 is gonna be a no go. The reason for this is because Multisim or any other simulation that I have seen doesn't have the 4046 PLL IC's. Here's figure 8.
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here is a 4046 subcircuit i developed just for Stan Meyer experimenters...Enjoy...
( open the file and look at the tab below, it will open an additional page with the subcircuit for the 4046 part i created)
using a data sheet and basic components we can create just about any part we wish, using existing parts and models.... these are known as Subcircuits...
simply search the help files and follow the directions
The actual graphic on the first page links to the parts on the second page via global connectors... or something similar, i forget its been a while since i made this subcircuit...
I think you have to keep the 4046 subcircuit files in the same folder as the rest of your circuit and copy it when you move the simulation as well...if you ever want to move to a faster desktop system
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I can get ya figure 8, but figure 7 is gonna be a no go. The reason for this is because Multisim or any other simulation that I have seen doesn't have the 4046 PLL IC's. Here's figure 8.
Thank You again Mr.Tony ... and Mr.Ali hmm thats cool i just ran out on the education edition and installed 11.01.... man i iwish i had known that yesterday .Ill start ordering parts soon.
Do yall know what part number is Q4 and Q5 on figure 4? It acts like on the sim the voltage wants to go to inifinity on that circuit.
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Thats a darlington pair configuration of BJT's
so a single Darlington Pair part should do the trick
make sure the datasheet indicates the corrcet maximum switching speed and the base current is double what is required as well as the load current through the emitter / collector...etc.
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I`v built fig12 and fig6 on breadboard, and noticed that at the output from A26(74122) duty cycle is not fully variable, it varies in steps. Is that as it should be ?
I attached the waveforms i`m having at some points of the circuits
HM
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I`v built fig12 and fig6 on breadboard, and noticed that at the output from A26(74122) duty cycle is not fully variable, it varies in steps. Is that as it should be ?
I attached the waveforms i`m having at some points of the circuits
HM
the very last 20 seconds of your video shows the correct action of the duty cycle of the gated signal.....this gated signal will be overlaid or superimposed on top of the pll output so that the pll frequency (whatever that ends up being, based on what kind of water you use) will only show up under the square waveform but not on top of it
The gate signal blocks out a percentage of it per cycle
(you may already have guessed that, but im stating it here for beginners)
looks good... nice sharp corners, clean signal
if you dont use signal K or the safety circuit (figure 11), you can leave out the extra parts between the 74122 and output "A"
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Anyone have a clue about this?
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/outlawstc/water%20fuel%20tech/4046.jpg)
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Anyone have a clue about this?
continue line down below the question mark and connect to pin 14 of 4001 to the right
(maybe)...
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Newguy, Q4 is a 2N3055 and Q5 is a TIP120.
Outlawstc,that wire comes from pin 3 of the PLL and the connection going to the tab at the base of the card doesn't hook to anything,it dead ends there.So it doesn't matter whare it goes.
Don
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Thank You Dynodon 8) looking forward to getin parts n stuff :)
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Thanks Don that one has been on my mind for a while.. I'm also curious to where the ANL/FREQ switch is connected and its function in the circuit... it looks to me like one of the wires is going to one of the switch 2 pads on the board..
If i were to guess what it is for i would say its to switch the bnc test output to send out 1 of 2 signals.. Either the variable amplitude or the cell drivers output.. allowing one bnc connection to be easily switched between 2 signals?
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outlawstc,your exactly right on the anl/freq switch.It lets you see the cell driver frequency or the analog voltage output.
Don
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Don, parts Q1,2,and 3 on figure 3.... those would help alot as well.
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Here are some work intensive photo edits of where i think the traces go on the VIC Card
frontplane is blue, backplane is red
start by tracing power routing to every chip to verify.
also seems to me that pin 3 of the pll goes to the 10k resistor called point "G", the input of figure 5.
(because pin 4 of PLL- VCO signal out, goes to pin 14 of 4017, pin 14 is the clock input and i would suspect that according to the photo and according to the figure 7 schematic this would be true)
Basically signal goes out on pin 4 and comes back on pin 3 so if you switch in one of the 4017s the frequency is divided and comes back from pin12 carry to pin 3 pll and at this point goes to point "G"
if pll pin 4 went to point "G" the 4017 dividers wouldnt work...
also here is the multisim simulation for figures 3, 4 voltage circuit... still have to test it in the real world but its updated based on the VIC CARD revelations...
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@DON
seems like the Q8 on VIC CARD was an after thought, even though the fingers go out to an external Q8
What gives?
Here is the updated figure 4 schematic based on the Vic Card details
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I was looking at core materials, and the iron powder core are an interesting material, but initially got a low permeability - I for one think that this is important as inductance is, and iron powder cores do have an upper limit there. Quit often permeability in iron powder core is less then 100 in PM, these cores contain other interesting aspects, but PM and induction is important, so I located a ferrite material that might have potential, so please take a look at it and comment.
*Ferrite Material 78 (soft ferrite) meaning it can be machined!!!
Initial permeability is between 2300-2500
http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/materials78.htm (http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/materials78.htm)
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I would avoid the toroid co`s its not in the his vic matrix patent, probably best to use the later patents. The stainless wire looks like it is used with his injectors so avoiding them will save u a lot of hassle. Read the vic patent and learn the different technologys he talks of (vic and vec) as he flips between them almost in the same sentence, this makes reading his patents easier, i think the vic is a simplier build. His vic is reasonably well described except the primary coil, he said the primary is bi-directional wrap...bi is 2, 2 directions and wrap means wrapped around the former. The bi-directional is one half of the transformer primary is wound in one direction and the other half is then wound in the opposite direction forming 2 coils of opposing magnetic fields, this is wound longitudal to the chokes and secondary,i am 98% certain that is exactly how it is wound. Another tip would be if u put a resistor in miss out the voltage multiplier coil for now but not the electron inhibitor coil, you can make it a variable resistor for easy adjustment.
I have had this producing gas but there is some sort of "tuneing" needed i cannot work out at the moment, but haveing gas production with uA`s flowing out of my mini vic shows it can be done.
(this post came from Joe2 at http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7765-hho-production-stan-meyer-style.html)
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This is what I'm seeing in the circuit...is this what you guys are seeing???
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/PLL&CellDriver.PNG)
Hi Tony
What is the value for the capacitor near the 22k resistor?
hm
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Can someone explain to me why the cell driver circuit uses 4 transistors instead of only 1?
Is it just used to amplify the signal so the tip120 has full conduction?
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just thought i would show off my new board ;-)
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j243/outlawstc/water%20fuel%20tech/101_2019.jpg)
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Wow, looks like someone else has been busy too!
My parts are still coming in!
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Outlaw, what program did you use to design your board?
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I used eagle
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It seems the secondary and chokes are configured as series connected and are all the same polarity
Is this true
Therefore the step up ratio required at 12 volts on the primary is 150 to 1 to get 1800 volts at the output
therefore if the primary has 100 turns the three coils must total 15000 turns
so that means each coil must have 5000 turns of wire
does this sound close to stans design parameters Dynodon???
Also Don, were the values in the excel sheet based on an actual VIC coil you measured or are these values from one of your replications?
Thanks
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When Stan is talking about coil ratio in his patent his example is 10:1 step up in comparison to primary and secondary.. He then says if he applies 12v then he gets 360volts spikes.. But he also says that with the chokes being the same amount of winds as secondary that its a 30:1
The voltage Stan is creating is higher then the output of the transformer based on wind ratio i think.. Stan is incrementally (pulsing) which is displacing the electrons within the transformer.. His higher voltage is not based off of the ratio since it goes higher i do believe..
The way I imagine it is Stan has a transformer made to displace and oscillate continously.. Once it gets up to like say 5000volts, you can cut off input and the circuit will continue to oscillate due to the mechanical resonance that was achieved from the gated pulses. It will oscillate until all the charge leaks back across the gap from negative to the positive.. Remember stan is not getting 0 amps.. There is still leakage across the gap..
This is why Stan says he can run the circuit in a resonant condition for 5 seconds then cut off the input and it will continue to output gasses for 94 seconds.. Its because he resonates a displacement in the coil and that displacement discharges at around 2 ma or so..
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Ali ,the measurements in the spreadsheet were taken from Stans coils,not my own.
Everyone who recieved the dvd's with the spreadsheet, I will tell you what the different readings in the tabs mean.
First tab "Loose coils" are the reading of each vic coil without the core installed.
Second tab "On Core Open" means the core was installed,and all of the coils were not wired to anything,all leads were open.
Third tab "On Core Closed" means the coils were on the core and all of the coils had their wires twisted together,except the one being tested.Each coil leads were twisted together seperate from the other.I mean when the primary coil was tested,the secondary coil leads were twisted together,and each choke coil was twisted together,all sperate from each other.
Then of course the last tab was the cell readings.
I hope you all understand this.If you recieved a dvd from me and you don't have the spreadsheet let me know and I will email it to you.I didn't get it on the dvd's,forgot.
Don
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Transformer Calculations:
*******************************************************************************
Vic Bobbin Shown can hold at the most
30 layers deep x 114 winds wide = 3420 turns per choke
3420 x 3 coils = 10260 turns for all three
if 10260 turns = 2000 volts (target output at 12 volts)
2000 / 10260 = .194931773 volts per turn
12 volts primary / .194931773 volts = 61.56 turns on the primary
10260 / 61.56 = 166.66 to 1 transformer ratio
PROOF: 12 volts x 166.66 = 2000 volts
if voltage is varied from 3 volts to 12 volts to control production ( using figures 2, 3, & 4 as stated in the patent)
then 3 volts would give a final output voltage of 3 x 166.66 = 499.98 volts
6 volts as a lower limit would give us 999.96 volts
these calculations are based on zero losses and using an optimum AC signal to overcome hysteresis losses
i dont know how the square wave, DC signal with a diode affects these calculations
I do know that a small inductance on the primary is required because at 10khz anything over 50mh tends to make the square wave a pure dc (battery) signal and the pulsing signal would be lost in the inductive reactance.
for this reason the type of core used must be thin and flat with a very low permeability and the gap between halves helps avoid saturation
as seen in the final VIC core
photos attached with dimensions
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CORRECTION>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
i did some looking and calculations on the actual VIC primary and its got about 741 turns
now if each choke and the secondary can only hold close to 4000 turns each due to space limitations
then 12000 / 741 = 16.2 turns ratio
this would only give 194 volts output at 12 volts input... apparently the 1500 volts stan speaks of MUST be due to step charging
5 cycles per capacitor charge = 194 x 5 ??? = 970 volts??
what gives??
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The one thing that has eluded me in this journey of discovery is the electrical fundamental formula related to series resonance vs parallel resonance
With series resonance the amps go high while the voltage goes down at resonance
With parallel resonance the voltage goes high, keeping amps at a minimum
that is documented all over the net at every single site and in all the electronics books
so my question is:
does the secondary coil of the transformer count as the parallel inductor with the water cap (tube) disregarding the chokes...
it appears that if the resonance we are seeking is the tank circuit between the secondary/choke combination and the WFC then it looks like a series resonant tank circuit and therefore: series resonance should give high amps and low voltage!
OR are we shooting for resonance of the capacitive / inductive characteristics of the choke coils themselves
What exactly do you think the PLL is providing as far as the resonant frequency? does the fact that the secondary is a voltage source at each end of the coil make it a parallel tank circuit as opposed to a series tank circuit with an external power source?
others have indicated that the blocking diode prevents a tank circuit...
the mystery boggles my mind
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In the Meyer decription on how the the whole VIC circuit is working (meaning, the transformer + chokes + watercapacitor) Meyer stated two things wich are a little bit of a contradiction.
First, he states that when the circuit is in resonance, voltage acros watercap is higher then output of transformer, secondly that voltage across choke is higher then output of transformer and as last comment that VT is higher then output of transformer.
A Simple calculation of U=I*R can tell you that HV across the watercap is simple BS.
So only VT is left...... Creating a HV zone on one side of the watercap and a HV zone across the negative side.
If you use a Bifilar winded choke, then at the right timing, meaning at resonance of the LC of the choke and with a little R from the cell, you will notice HV of VT.
(VT = 1 choke plus cell = L+C, accoording to Meyer.) C = electrode. Not the dielectric of the water, because Meyer states that that acts as R)
regards
Steve
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Cheap chinese made coilwinding machines, free shipping:
http://perfectgoodhelper.com/goods.php?id=1074
http://perfectgoodhelper.com/goods.php?id=695
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I just ordered one of those coil winders!
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Can you create a video of how it works when you receive it? :)
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sure, I should have it any day now
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Good link!
I orderd one for myself as well! :)
Steve
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I have been browsing taobao.com, a chinese ebay, damn, the prices for winders are ridiculously low.
For example, 325 euro for this one:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7639023911
or 190 for this one:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9787536382
Shipping costs will be high and will be shipped by sea, because the first one weighs 47kg.
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here is a example of stan meyers voltage intensifier circuits output pulses going out of the tip 120 to the primary..
the gate simply controls the duty cycle of the resonant pulses produced by the phase lock circuit.. this circuit based on stans component allows the gate circuit to operate with a frequency range of around 1-40hz while the pll has a range of up to around 20khz..
So when scanning the gate signal remains constant.. when the pll frequency climbs then the number of pulses per gate on time grows... As frequency drops the number of pulses per gate on time drops..
in the pic you see the red scope shot.. it is the gated pulse output going into the 4001
then you have the yellow which has the pll pulses that are being gated on and off by the gate circuit.. notice how they match
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Well, makes perfect sense since it is a continuation of the 9XB/8XA systems. The gated pulse is no more than the replacement of the 50/60 Hz rectifite sine wave of the variable plate system. Meyer just took that as starting point for his future systems and searched for a digital/dc way of doing the same as the variable plate system.
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Good link!
I orderd one for myself as well! :)
Steve
got it!
All the way from China....
I am happy with it. It does what is should do.
Steve
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I'm searching for a lookup table for the value of resistors of notation type 1002F / 2221F. Are the resistors 1%?
Br,
Webmug
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I'm searching for a lookup table for the value of resistors of notation type 1002F / 2221F. Are the resistors 1%?
Br,
Webmug
My two cents...
That will be probably:
1002 = 10000 ohm
2221 = 2220 ohms
Just like with capacitors.....
Steve
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I'm searching for a lookup table for the value of resistors of notation type 1002F / 2221F. Are the resistors 1%?
Br,
Webmug
My two cents...
That will be probably:
1002 = 10000 ohm
2221 = 2220 ohms
Just like with capacitors.....
Steve
Ok, thanks steve. Type of resistors are on the VIC pcb.
Precision resistors are marked with a four-digit code, in which the first three digits are the significant figures and the fourth is the power of ten. F is +-1%
Br,
Webmug
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Cheap chinese made coilwinding machines, free shipping:
http://perfectgoodhelper.com/goods.php?id=1074
http://perfectgoodhelper.com/goods.php?id=695
I have the first link winder. it is best to set this up on a table and let the spool be on the ground. Lay the spool sideways and let the wire unwind itself - necessary with 42 awg - or the wire snaps.
The foot pedal is very touchy. I like to tap it on and off to keep the speed down.
Would love to see a slower speed on this, but with the above details you will be able to adapt.
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WHAT IF WE WERE TO COMBINE THE OUTPUTS OF ALL 9 VIC COILS IN SERIES?
WHAT IF THE GATING SIGNAL WAS COMMON TO ALL 9 VIC COILS IN SERIES?
DOES THIS EXPLAIN WHY ALL THE WFC CAPS ARE SHOWN CONNECTED IN SERIES AS ONE BIG SERIES CONNECTED CAPACITOR?
SO EACH VIC CIRCUIT MAINTAINS ITS OWN CHOKE RESONANT FREQUENCY TO RESTRICT AMPS...BUT THE OUTPUTS ARE ADDED TO GET SUPER HIGH VOLTAGE?
309 TURNS PRIMARY 2000 TURNS SECONDARY AND 2000 TURNS ON EACH CHOKE, BUT THOSE EFFECTIVLY CANCEL EACHOTHER OUT BECAUSE THEY ARE OPPOSING EACHOTHERS MAGNETIC FLUX TO RESTRICT AMPS ... SO EACH VIC COIL IS AROUND A 7 TO 1 STEP UP FROM 12 VOLTS
THIS GIVES 84 VOLTS AT EACH OUTPUT BUT IN SERIES WE HAVE 9 VIC COILS FOR 756 VOLTS DC ACROSS THE WATER FUEL CELLS, WHICH ARE A HUGE CAPACITOR AND WITH STEP CHARGING THE CAPS CAN REACH TWICE THE SUPPLY VOLTAGE DUE TO THE DE Q ING DIODES IN THE VICS
SO WE GET 1500 VOLTS, AT THE RIGHT FREQUENCY TO PULL APART H2O WITH ALMOST ZERO AMPS ???
IS THIS THE SECRET?
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WHAT IF WE WERE TO COMBINE THE OUTPUTS OF ALL 9 VIC COILS IN SERIES?
WHAT IF THE GATING SIGNAL WAS COMMON TO ALL 9 VIC COILS IN SERIES?
DOES THIS EXPLAIN WHY ALL THE WFC CAPS ARE SHOWN CONNECTED IN SERIES AS ONE BIG SERIES CONNECTED CAPACITOR?
SO EACH VIC CIRCUIT MAINTAINS ITS OWN CHOKE RESONANT FREQUENCY TO RESTRICT AMPS...BUT THE OUTPUTS ARE ADDED TO GET SUPER HIGH VOLTAGE?
309 TURNS PRIMARY 2000 TURNS SECONDARY AND 2000 TURNS ON EACH CHOKE, BUT THOSE EFFECTIVLY CANCEL EACHOTHER OUT BECAUSE THEY ARE OPPOSING EACHOTHERS MAGNETIC FLUX TO RESTRICT AMPS ... SO EACH VIC COIL IS AROUND A 7 TO 1 STEP UP FROM 12 VOLTS
THIS GIVES 84 VOLTS AT EACH OUTPUT BUT IN SERIES WE HAVE 9 VIC COILS FOR 756 VOLTS DC ACROSS THE WATER FUEL CELLS, WHICH ARE A HUGE CAPACITOR AND WITH STEP CHARGING THE CAPS CAN REACH TWICE THE SUPPLY VOLTAGE DUE TO THE DE Q ING DIODES IN THE VICS
SO WE GET 1500 VOLTS, AT THE RIGHT FREQUENCY TO PULL APART H2O WITH ALMOST ZERO AMPS ???
IS THIS THE SECRET?
I dont think so, Ali.
There was one vic for each tubeset.
But dont let this stop you from trying things out.
Nobody has the answers at the moment.
Steve
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I dont think so, Ali.
There was one vic for each tubeset.
But dont let this stop you from trying things out.
Nobody has the answers at the moment.
Steve
according to the photo from dynodon, all the tube sets were connected in series with only two wires coming off the bottom of the resonant chamber to connect to the VIC ???
maybe that was a test version by stan that is misleading or not...
also dynodon has a spreadsheet that shows the wire sizes for the u-core VIC as all being 29 gauge... and the turns for each coil based on wire resistance and inductance calculations comes out ( with a primary turns of 309) to a 7 to 1 or a 20 to 1 step up transformer depending on how the polarity of the chokes is connected... at 12 volts in we get 84 volts or 240 volts at the tube set.
so im trying to understand how stan was able to get 1500 to 2000 volts
if we series connect the vics we get roughly 9 vics x 85 = 765 or 9 x 240 = = 2160 depending again on the coil polarities and connections...
food for thought...
remember that figure 2 extra input on the VIC card... that extra OP AMP that we found that wasnt on the patent diagrams... maybe that is a common gating signal for the series connected VIC coils?
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Hi to all
I'm new in this forum. I have read all the posts and I want to re-open this topic.
See attachment. I found this at the last page of the The Birth of New Technology - S.Meyer.
Aty
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This may interest you and others
vic spec links and more
http://hhoinformation.com/forum/topics/stan-meyer-s-circuit-schematics-and-vic-measurments-what-you-have?xg_source=msg_mes_network#axzz1diKTK3Gd
kb
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here is the link for stan's vic and other stuff, nice page
http://hhoinformation.com/forum/topics/stan-meyer-s-circuit-schematics-and-vic-measurments-what-you-have?xg_source=msg_mes_network#axzz1diKTK3Gd
kb
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Read this. He also speaks for high voltage over 40 KV.
If the VIC hardware is well constructed, and the given circuit is well tuned to that hardware, then the amplitude of the waveform you will see arise between L2 and C5 will show instantaneous voltages well above 40kV and higher. This is what facilitates the “electrical polarization process” effect.
This information I have just given you is the answer to often asked question about what is the capacitance (or some other parameter) of a Meyer cell. The fact is, the specific values of the components are less important then the knowledge that your real goal is to cause the cell to pulse in a resonant condition. By resonance, I am specifically referring to that condition which occurs when the capacitive reactance of C5 equals inductive reactance of L1 (and by extension, L2). This “resonant frequency” is dependent only on the characteristics of the electronic components in use, including the resistance value of your water dielectric.
Please feel free to share this design and use it however you wish as I am placing it into the public domain. If you re-post it, please include attribution to me and a link back to my blog. (Thank you for that.)
I found at this site http://www.alexpetty.com/2011/06/16/simple-wfc-energization-circuit-by-alex-petty/
Aty
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Resonant frequency of course is electrical resonance, but when Stan refers to resonant action he is talking about the movement of ions in the cell. Resonat action promotes collision. This is the reason for the wiper arm on the negative choke in some of Stan's diagrams, in his actual resoance cell the chokes are different sizes to accomplish this task
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Unfortunately my hard disc fail and all my date were gone. But every bad thing has a good one and vice-versa. So while I was looking for Stan's documents I found the most excellent Stan's data.
http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/ Full Download Stanley Meyer Original Data From Estate
have fun
Aty
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http://rwgresearch.com/open-projects/stanley-meyers-wfc-tec/
Full Download Stanley Meyer Original Data From Estate
Now is OK
Aty
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VIC schematic from the estate
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Why you guys bother copying the skematic from picture and trying to replicate it if don had the original vic and didn't work,if 1circuit for example was hidden/distroied by stanley/or somebody else we construct the whole vic for nothing... don't mean to disapoint just a tought!reply's
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Why you guys bother copying the skematic from picture and trying to replicate it if don had the original vic and didn't work,if 1circuit for example was hidden/distroied by stanley/or somebody else we construct the whole vic for nothing... don't mean to disapoint just a tought!reply's
Have you ever put a puzzle together and almost finished it, but found some pieces were missing? Do you remember how you felt about that gaping hole right in the middle of your beautiful picture? If you could only find those missing pieces (maybe they're still in the box or under the table, or worse yet, mixed in with another puzzle), then you would have a complete picture at last.
Where and what are these missing pieces to the puzzle? How do they fit into the picture?
Let's find out. 8)
Br,
Webmug
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''Have you ever put a puzzle together and almost finished it, but found some pieces were missing?''
No webmug,I am just assumint there are missing parts because as you know don tried the vic unit and did not work,(also hdrocars states in one topic that the car cannot be started by the owner)or this whole thing is a scam...reply
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''Have you ever put a puzzle together and almost finished it, but found some pieces were missing?''
No webmug,I am just assumint there are missing parts because as you know don tried the vic unit and did not work,(also hdrocars states in one topic that the car cannot be started by the owner)or this whole thing is a scam...reply
All I want to say that there are indeed a lot of unknowns why Dynodon didn't make it work.
I do not know how Dynodon tested the setup and why it didn't produce any gas at all. Could be wrong water-type in the cavity and that the connected VIC wasn't calibrated for it, I don't know. Also SM has build in some key parts what he could remove or add to prevent it from operating. Could be.
But the technology SM invented and documented in his words is very convincing I don't think it is a scam.
Electrostatics aren't fully understood in for example his water-capacitor. Preventing current in a water dielectric.
Remember that this is the first step to understand SM technology, there are a lot more steps above this first step to use as a supplement.
For example: Resonant Action.
Br,
Webmug
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WHAT ABOUT SM.lawsuit in 1996 when he was sued by the 2 investors because they gave him money to build the wfc and can not prove his technology work:wiky link
''In 1996, Meyer was sued by two investors to whom he had sold dealerships, offering the right to do business in Water Fuel Cell technology. His car was due to be examined by the expert witness Michael Laughton, Professor of Electrical Engineering at Queen Mary, University of London and Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. However, Meyer made what Professor Laughton considered a "lame excuse" on the days of examination and did not allow the test to proceed.[3] According to Meyer the technology was patent pending and under investigation by the patent office, the Department of Energy and the military.[14] His "water fuel cell" was later examined by three expert witnesses in court who found that there "was nothing revolutionary about the cell at all and that it was simply using conventional electrolysis". The court found Meyer guilty of "gross and egregious fraud" and ordered him to repay the two investors their $25,000.[3]
How do you comment that?
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Listen to Stan's brothers radio interview for more information about the case. It's not what you think. Remember reading about in a wiki.
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I am doing that just now..while im readind your post:d
Dave what to you think about the buggy could never been started by no one (his owners) and that don don't get results on tryying the VIC?
reply please
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I believe Stan had the buggy working. Don didn't get it to work but that doesn't mean it never did. Image one of the first pc computers, without the 1000 page user guide the owner would not of been able to get it to work unless the owner of the computer was also the designer. Who knows what kind of trouble shooting is involved with Stan's prototype system
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There is conflicting information floating around - since no one has been able to get the dunebuggy version of the vic to do anything, it makes me wonder:
Artinvegas says Stan had the coils made from stainless steel wire he had epoxy coated at a company in NC.
Don says the wire was copper magnet wire, AWG29.
Who is right and who is wrong? Did Don physically disassemble the coils to verify they were only copper?
Also, what kind of core was used - did Stan make his own?
It seems there would be a supplier somewhere.
I simply do not see how such a small number of turns could make KV output.
All my tests show very low voltage out, certainly not KV.
Are we all chasing a pipedream with this? Perhaps when Stan's stuff was confiscated, these vics were planted byt the MIB to throw people off, as they did with the rotary vic motor?
A lot to think about...
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The 5 coil VIC transformer was all copper wire...the 6-1 (Tri-Coil) transformer used both copper and 430FR SS wire. In the 6-1 coil, Stan used the SS wire for the chokes for many reasons....1) To create electron clustering between the secondary and chokes. 2) Prevent signal "ringing". 3) Create a resistance to restrict current due to the high voltage (approx. 40kv). 4) The SS wire will produce a much stronger magnetic field than copper wire.
The core for the 5 coil VIC transformer was made of Ferrite with a permeability approx. 1000 - 1500. The 6-1 transformer M27 steel laminates.
From testing that I've done with my replication of the 5 coil VIC, I've gotten over 2kv out of it and its a 7:1 step-up. I also tested a 1/2 scale 6-1 coil and I've gotten over 4kv out of it.
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From testing that I've done with my replication of the 5 coil VIC, I've gotten over 2kv out of it and its a 7:1 step-up. I also tested a 1/2 scale 6-1 coil and I've gotten over 4kv out of it.
you mean across the water or across a simple capacitor?
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across an actual capacitor based on the calculated value of the cell's capacitance. Still working on getting a resonant cavity made.
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hy tony,i listened the radio interviu-Jeff Rense show and ''JW'' said that he will put some videos and doc's on jeff's site,but can not enter the arhives..must pay to register,do you know what is this docs about?
by the way nice site you have!
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dont forget the resistive element custom made on the negative side of the wfc...
maybe a huge wattage 10 megohm pot would be a start
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across an actual capacitor based on the calculated value of the cell's capacitance. Still working on getting a resonant cavity made.
you mean ten 3" tubes in series with a calculated cpacitance of around 877nF ?
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across an actual capacitor based on the calculated value of the cell's capacitance. Still working on getting a resonant cavity made.
you mean ten 3" tubes in series with a calculated cpacitance of around 877nF ?
I asked Steve Meyer about that very issue, the series connected cells...he replied "there were many different configurations being tried, that just happens to be one of them..."
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IS it possible hat the square pc board on the right side of the vic coil cards in the control unit was designed t rotate the signals to each cell in a specific pattern to limit the power used..i mean when cell 1 was pulsing high cell 2 is halfway and cell 3 is just beginning , i find it interesting that there are a few 741 op amps 2wo plls and some gates...anyone have a clue to what that card is doing with all the other vic cards?
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in the VIC cabinet there were two other circuits, one for the "Steam Resonator" and another for the "Gas Processor". If I was a betting man, I would say the circuit you are referring to, was for the Gas Processor.
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Anyone found a good place to get those plastic bobbins made up?
A while back someone on this forum gave me some info on a guy who was printing them. I sent him a requenst to have some printed up but I have never heard back from him.
I sent the dimensions to a local plastic printing place and they want over 100$ for a set.
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Russ Gries just told me the other day that he knows someone printing them.Try his web site.
Don
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Yeah, Russ got them printed from the same guy I pointed hms too who also made my bobbins. I think he might be a bit overloaded right now. Try the forum And if that doesn't work out, look for someone that does 3G printing, it costs so much less and I need more sets as well
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Does anyone have the inductance measurements from the original 5 coil VIC with the core?
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Does anyone have the inductance measurements from the original 5 coil VIC with the core?
Yeah here's the measurements that Don took from one of Stan's VIC transformers. Don has it listed as 29ga wire but 30ga wire has closer measurements to Stan's coils.
http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Transformer_&_Cavity.pdf (http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Transformer_&_Cavity.pdf)
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The only place I could find that is selling them online is here:
http://stansdream.com/stan_meyer_vic_bobbin.htm
Perhaps we could make them an offer?
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Wow they are expensive! I'd wait to find another Source before buying something like that. I think max is machining them which is much more expensive
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That is a rip, I contacted a 3d printing company and they wanted about the same amount of money.
The good news is Russ Gries is selling them with the end caps
for 25$. It's where I got mine from.
Get on his forums and send him a pm to see if he has any left.
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Thanks for the tip.
I sought some of the bobbins before and was told they didn't have any left.
I also checked the stansdream site, and the prices on the bobbins have come down a little - I'll keep emailing them!
Now I need a core and some wire........
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I found a good source for wire....I bought 1 pound heavy insulated 30AWG wire for 24$ at oemwire.com.
As for the core, still working on that one...Most ferrite core companies require a minimum order which is quite high so we need to get a bunch of people buying, but even more important is we need to find the right core material.
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Can you guys tell me what kind of caps are those ?polyester,ceramic?does it mater the type?see att
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I have seen some Meyer documentation about the VIC coil that said it was bifilar wound. Isn't that a twisted pair of wires winding a coil to bottle in mag energy, stopping the generation of the field about the coil? I think the Tesla coil has some bifilar windings, for instance. From what I see here, coils look standard, single wire wrapped. Was that a different version or product of his I happened to be looking at a diagram of?
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Sampajo,
Stan had many different designs, bifilar coils was one of them. The 5 coil Vic on two U cores is what you see most people try to replicate because that's what Don found at the estate and documented. We have the most information about it.
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Bifilar winding is what you need when you want maximum coupling, to have two exactly equal voltages across the two coils or 0 ac volts between their end points... its same as a common mode choke...
The thing is that he applies a potential only... not only a difference of potential. This creates the resonant action... pretty much like the steam resonator but taken steps further...
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So Tony W. is selling the VIC at globalkast, irondmax is at Stan meyers dream site and hydrogewaterfuel from Texas has one. TheHydrogenShop sells the microstar. So will somebody please post if they have got the VIC working, or haven't I looked enough. What about the seasoning process on the electrodes? Is that key? I want to cut the use of an electrolyzer and amperage on my conventional HHO kit under the hood. I want to make a high voltage type unit that fits under the hood of a modern vehicle, a tall task. I don't care if it is operating exactly at resonance or at max HHO production, just need a few lpm for combustion enhancement. plate designs fit well, cant get anything bigger than 3.5" anywhere. My first attempt is going to be using a lawton circuit, bought on at courtiestown.com.uk for about 75. Sucks how much retuning is needed on motor, big job, $$ too.
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So Tony W. is selling the VIC at globalkast, irondmax is at Stan meyers dream site and hydrogewaterfuel from Texas has one. TheHydrogenShop sells the microstar. So will somebody please post if they have got the VIC working, or haven't I looked enough. What about the seasoning process on the electrodes? Is that key? I want to cut the use of an electrolyzer and amperage on my conventional HHO kit under the hood. I want to make a high voltage type unit that fits under the hood of a modern vehicle, a tall task. I don't care if it is operating exactly at resonance or at max HHO production, just need a few lpm for combustion enhancement. plate designs fit well, cant get anything bigger than 3.5" anywhere. My first attempt is going to be using a lawton circuit, bought on at courtiestown.com.uk for about 75. Sucks how much retuning is needed on motor, big job, $$ too.
No one has gotten everything to work properly, and if they say they have they haven't proven it with data. What I mean is, there is no evidence that any hho has been produced in a different way other that that from electrolysis. The only reason to go in this direction is if you want to experiment with it and try to make it work. If your looking for something off the shelf that will give you results, using the vic and board is not for you. I'm just saying this so you understand the situation, don't let me stop you :)