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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: johnd on December 09, 2009, 09:36:00 am
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Hello , im new to the forum . Ive been fiddling about with hho for well over a year now and still not managed to produce much gas . Ive made a lawton pwm and messed about with transformers and vic's . Ive moded a quare wave as per kevin west but neither seems to quite cut it . Has anyone got a schematic of a pwm without the duty cycle problems of the lawton circuit ? Ive rewired an alternator the same as kevin too and it puts out 500v when my cell isnt connected but that goes down to about 50 with the cell on .
Cheers
John
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Welcome John to ionizationx :)
I think we can help you with your research.
There is one PWM that will do the right job.
Its designed by Electrojolt, which is a member here.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1054.0.html (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1054.0.html)
Go read his topic and you will get what you want!
Steve
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thanks steve , good stuff .......That looks like quite a project for an electronics dummy like me :)
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Welcome John,
I am playing with an alternator setup as well, and I have done a lot of research into Stan's Rotary Voltage Intensifier Circuit, and will be building it over the Christmas break.
If you have the ability to rewind an alternator I would like to encourage you to read this topic, The RVIC is wound in a special way, which is figured out and described here:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1201.0.html
There should be a handful of other members going to try this alternator, I have even emailed Kevin West about it and he may try it too.
Welcome!
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Thanks donald , i read that thread , very interesting . Mine is done very similar to the first drawing but it would be quite easy to modify it to the second one . Mine is a delco remy and have 47 winds per loop , 13 loops per phase going into a full bridge .
Do you know how big and how many winds per choke ? And would they be triflar ?
I havent had the same results as kevin which is frustrating , the only difference on mine is the resistor size (i have some on order ) and im using de ionised water instead of distilled (also on order ) . Distilled water used to be everywhere but its really hard to find in the uk now for some reason , its all just deionised .
I should have them by the weekend and really cant wait to try them ...... fingers crossed :)
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I just tried the other configeration but produced no more gas than straight into a bridge . Im not saying i did it correct but spent all day making some small triflar inductors to put in the alternator with 1n5408 diodes ....
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172835144/)
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172832598/)
It aint pretty but neither am i lol ...
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172077279/)
nothing exciting on the scope ....
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172833904/)
oh well ....
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the pictures didnt show on the last post for some reason :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172832598/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172077279/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4172833904/
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Nice to see you working on it!
However, we must have a misunderstanding!
To wind this circuit:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture7-1.png)
you need to completely rewind the stator, the chokes are part of each phase winding on the stator, so instead of have 3 wires on the stator, you have 9
so instead of winding 1 wire per phase, you wind 3 wires per phase, and connect them in series, so it's like the wire goes around the stator 3 times
here is a picture of Stan's RVIC, i'm not sure if you read the whole topic, but there are new discoveries and information towards the end
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/RotaryVIC.jpg)
he says the end choke coils are bifilar, so, you would wind 2 wires bifilar, and one wire alone, put these together, then put them in the stator as a single phase, do this 3 times, keeping track of all your wire ends, and your wire ends go in like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture14.png)
and you have your blocking diodes in between the secondary and the top choke, and then your isolation diodes at the other end of that choke before the positive terminal
i'm not sure if you were using a 3 phase bridge, but you can't use a simple 3 phase bridge for this, because you're not using negative diodes at all, and you're blocking diodes are separate from the isolation diodes
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Also, i'm not sure how many winds, but if you have 47 winds, then i'd do say 15 per coil, 3 coils... depends on how much space you have, and what gage wire
Also, kevin is not doing this, nobody has built this since stan, ( if they did, they didn't share results), but ill build it as soon as i'm done of exams next week.
This is my original drawing, with edited description to show exactly how Stan did it, each line you see as a secondary or choke, just imagine that has your 13 loops on it. but to draw that would make it a lot more complicated!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture15-1-1.png)
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i am the owner of that circuit board along with some other stuff that was stans
i saw the picture of the alternator you have were did you get it from
i have built the alternator as show in the diagram it didnt work
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That picture dynodon posted. what stuff of stans do you have?
can you elaborate more on how you built it and what the results were?
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circuit boards and stuff like that
i wound the thing a million ways none of them worked as described . not one single alternator made 7 liters a minute the best i ever got out of it was maybe 300 to 600 cc a minute using various tube cells
i was the person who got kevin started with winding alternators and was doing it for a year before that
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Those things laying around is just Stans junk .
Where is the working stuff ??
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nope it wasnt his junk
ask don about uvonics
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Dudley, can I buy the circuit boards? If they didn't match your luck i'd love to try mine.
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i would rather keep them they have sentimental value to me
but i find it funny how its junk when i own it but when it someone elses its gold
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yea, understandable :)
i have really been thinking and hoping this alternator is going to provide some promising results, and i don't see why it wouldn't if it is actually the rotary "vic" and wound properly, we can clearly see it being used to run the dune buggy, and he also says he was going to get the RVIC ready for mass production
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture7-4.png)
it would be nice to know more about your experiments and winding styles, because if this thing really did work... then it's just us missing something... and if we figure it out, then it can do everything for us that it did for Stan.
One question, ok, two questions, that are on my mind for winding this, is what gage wire, and what kind of diodes to use, can you comment on that? I have no idea what the output would be, but i'm thinking 30 gage
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that alternator never ran that car that thing was set up their as a deternat to make people think it would run a car and it still work till today
ive tried wire from 10 to 32 gauge what size it all trial and error
always ultra fast rectifying diode like fes16gt 400v 16 amp or diode equal to that but in required voltage and amprege
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Thank you for the diode type, it appears to be similar to the MUR1560 which i was thinking i might try.
how do you know that was set up as a deterrent ?
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Dudley, I got these pictures from Kevin, is this your alternator by any chance?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture021.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture020.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture019.jpg)
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well if you look in the video you can a see the gas output by eye is clearly not alot
even others here have been able to produce about 90 % of the amount using standard alternator and timing it to the psi gauge
the only reason the flame dosnt blow back in is because of the quenching circuit
the gauge dosnt really drop because the torch orfice is really small it less than .015
it works every person that ever saw a stan meyers video with vw running always assumes that the alternator is running the car
then they look at the second alternator mounted on the car and think thats running it but it wont work if you change rpm
it there cause vw have a crappy generator which dosent put out at low rpm
they dont notice the giant silver box attached in front of the motor
even if you could make the same amount of gas coming out of your cell per minute as stan has in the video you couldnt run a 5 hp briggs with it
the tubes are so long to act as a radiator to keep cell from getting hot quick
the tube being so long also allows him to put more water in container to keep it from getting hot
how long dose it take to heat 1 1/2 gallons of water
please dont think i dont believe in the technology cause i do very much
just every thing he wrote on paper has purposely made flaws in it which deter you from being able to recreate his work
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yes thats my alternator
if you use those diode on heat sink like picture you must insulate between diode and heat sink or it will short
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hmm, so something was running the car, what is the silver box? a solid state vic coil?
even if it was a solid state vic coil, wont the rvic act like a vic? it has all the same components
did you get amp restriction out of your vic? what kind of waveform and voltage/current? it must be similar to a vic coil...
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i got all kinds crazy waves from mine nothing over unity
for most people the rotary vic is a start point it gives a good foundation and knowledge of the wfc i wouldnt stop on my account
yes it ran on a solid state vic
the alternator on car is a marketing ploy to get investors
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interesting,
what are your thoughts on the drive speed of the alternator, constant? or might a variable speed control for the drive motor be useful to adjust the output frequency of the alternator?
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I tried to explain this to Kevin, and he built the chokes outside...
oh well, maybe next time, half a week til i start mine, i better order some diodes asap
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constant speed is always best it removes one more variable in testing
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yea
My thought was just that varying the rpm will vary the frequency, maybe i should say "adjustable" frequency, rather than a constantly changing rpm, but an adjustable rpm would give an adjustable frequency, just like you have a Potentiometer on a pulsing circuit, and maybe you can find a frequency that the alternator works better at, just like chokes have a frequency that gives them a nicer output, the thing is you would have to have a scope hooked up to it to notice any change in wave form. maybe it wont do anything, maybe you can't even get into the rpm range where it would do something.
I keep wondering about this, no conclusion yet, so i'm just asking people about their experience and opinions, trying to learn. I do have a spare Variable Frequency Drive, if I hook it up to the drive motor I can adjust the rpm. It may or may not be worth the effort.
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So Dudley , what about the 'ribbons' ?
I must know so I can confirm Stephen Meyer stories .
Did it ribbon or show any anomalies @ all .
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Im getting a great waveform out now but still no gas !!!! grrrrrrr !!!!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4187143663/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4187910092/
Any idea's ?
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Looks nice! nice set up.
is that output just from the alternator or are you pulsing it too?
Do you know what voltage and amps you are getting out?
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this is the setup :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4187689843/
im putting a square wave into the alternator ( kevin west's mod) , infact its totaly the same setup , same wave but no gas . He has no idea why either ?????
Im getting about 100v 1a out with the cell connected . Im totally flumoxed ???
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No where in Stan's documents do I recall him pulsing the alternator with a pulsing circuit. The only pulsing the alternator gets is 60 Hz AC from the wall rectified into 120 Hz DC into the rotor, but this is not meant to be something fancy, it's just what comes out of the wall. Kevin is doing some things that are not 100% in line with Stan, which is fine, it's great.
Are you using distilled water? sending 100 volts and 1 amp to tap water should give you something?
Not sure if you are using those capacitors, I'm not sure how they are supposed to help, but I know stan used bifilar chokes that have capacitance.
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What is Kevin doing anyways?
I never saw anything interresting with that fella .
I`'m sorry that we cannot help you ... I am finishing a three phase system myself
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Kevin is doing what he thinks is best with the best of his knowledge and tools, and that you have to respect, he's trying a lot more than anyone else is.
I wonder if your 3 phase thing you have been working on for months is a product that there is no market for? I'd hate to see your efforts wasted. You can get 3 phase from the alternator, or you can do single phase from a circuit. Maybe you could explain to me what your circuit is going to accomplish?
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Im using distilled water . Tried using the caps and inductors but it made no difference . I think Kevin has been getting some great results . If i produced the same amount of gas i would be happy .
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Kevin is still doing electrolysis, he's using amps, and his water gets hot, and he makes steam. He has rewound alternators in the normal way with finer wire... but his results are not like Stan's, I've been talking to him and I think he is going to try the RVIC soon, that'll be nice to see, since he'll probably have his finished before I get mine finished.
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Kevin is doing what he thinks is best with the best of his knowledge and tools, and that you have to respect, he's trying a lot more than anyone else is.
I wonder if your 3 phase thing you have been working on for months is a product that there is no market for? I'd hate to see your efforts wasted. You can get 3 phase from the alternator, or you can do single phase from a circuit. Maybe you could explain to me what your circuit is going to accomplish?
Yeah I will probably finish it off starting tomorrow , I am just off-school .
I just didnt finish it and the pcb , too boring , I had to change a few things also from when I first made it, I made a bunch of mistakes and found out I couldnt solder a particular chip without machines or risk damaginbg them If I am not absolutely perfect . , so I have to solve that ...
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Do you mean you would wire the stator phases like this ? :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45482143@N08/4188222835/
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Like this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture13-2.png)
and this
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture15-1-1.png)
I hope you don't mind the pencil crayons, I wanted to distinguish between the wires.
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You know what, I was wrong!
Stan does pulse the rotor of the alternator, at least as shown in this patent: 4798661 -Gas Generator Voltage Control Circuit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture14-3.png)
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You are right Donald .
Probably some form of PWM
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I kind of think he just took the pulsing circuit from the variable spacing plate cell and used it to pulse the alternator, that or a similar pulsing circuit, but this patent is clearly his early technology, 75-82, but he just filed the patent in 85 and received it in 89.
We know that the VIC and RIVC technology comes after this.
Maybe this control box has a pulsing circuit for the RVIC
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Boilerplate2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/BoilerplateRVIC1.jpg)
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You know what, I was wrong!
Stan does pulse the rotor of the alternator, at least as shown in this patent: 4798661 -Gas Generator Voltage Control Circuit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture14-3.png)
Yep.
Thats the Kevin West methode. Just pulsing the rotor.
I think to remember that Warp found some effects when aletrnator rpm's and rotorpulses matched.
Donald, as soon as you start pulsing a wfc, you see voltage taking over ;)
Sadly enough it doesnt produce more gas, so far.
Steve
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kevin winds his stator different then the standard alternator wind.. he winds up loops of around 50 and places them in the stator.. alternators are wound wound like a sine wave around the core... instead of winding 50 at one time and putting it in the groove you make 50 laps around the stator instead..
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Ok, this will be fun, i'll get this RVIC wound then I'll start looking into pulsing it, i'll also be thinking about building a new cell or two, depending on what I want to experiment with next, I really should have built a larger tubular array, but I was just working with what materials I had. Variable spacing plate cell would be really nice to play with.
I've been re-reading some patents and have some new things to think about. It appears that stans pulsing circuit had some options that i've never seen any of you guys play with, as well as the actual "resonant cavity" phenomenon... it's not just a name, it's a description of how you get that pulsing and get the water resonating back and forth like air between a tuning fork or something, a physical motion of the water matched to the electrical pulses, this is important too.
I think stan played with a lot of stuff before he came up with the VIC, which shows that we should be able to get some results with different configurations, but we really need to plan our experiments to achieve the things he was trying to do, restrict amps, simultaneous pulsing of positive and negative voltage, gating and pulsing...
I suggest you guys take a read thought some of his earlier patents and really try to visualize his set up and match that with other stuff we know about his set up. all the patents are cleanly posted in my section.
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The pulsing is probably some crude form of speed control , a PWM .
That is what is pwm eally , its not only used for pulsing water fuel cells lol
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you can PWM a DC motor for speed control, but not an AC motor, you need a VFD to control the speed of an AC motor.
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what ever speed stans alternator was spinning at was non variable so if any think he had from my perspective i would say no unless he had the ac style control to lower the speed.. most likely he had to take that set variable and equate all other variables to meet the spec.. im not sure if people are thinking maybe he was running a variable speed dc to the alternator.. but from what i see he had a ac motor running the alternator and the ac motor is being powered by what appears to be a single motor on the right side which is a old rotary style dc-ac inverter.. they used them on power trucks i used to have one.. when ever a load was applied to it, it would kick on and create power... 3 phase generators used comercialy that take 2 phase and make 3 they have to be turned on and turned off to use.. if they are left on without a load they can burn up. so i have herd from a welder i know that has one...
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I think the cheapest and easiest way for pulse width modulation or signal generation is just shelling out 150 dollars for a decent lab grade unit. If I had known this before I bought the Lawton circuit for the same price, I would have gone with a nice one with tons of options and an LED readout. I found one on eBay for 130 not too long ago. The Lawton circuit works great too, I just like the extra bells and whistles. Unless your replicating, how the signal is generated is really not an issue.
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I think the cheapest and easiest way for pulse width modulation or signal generation is just shelling out 150 dollars for a decent lab grade unit. If I had known this before I bought the Lawton circuit for the same price, I would have gone with a nice one with tons of options and an LED readout. I found one on eBay for 130 not too long ago. The Lawton circuit works great too, I just like the extra bells and whistles. Unless your replicating, how the signal is generated is really not an issue.
Unless you want to fit the unit in a car ;D