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Projects by members => Projects by members => Dynodon => Topic started by: Dynodon on November 19, 2009, 02:05:05 am
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In this post I will go into the resonant cell design.I will describe the set up that Stan used and how it all worked.
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This section will go into the details of the cell in the attached file at the end of this post.
Inside the cell was 11 tube sets.They were in a circular pattern,just like the demo cell.All of the tube sets were sunken down into the body of the case.The tubes were only three inches in length.The ouside tube was shorter than the inside,in order to keep them at the proper spacing.The water entered from the bottom of the tubes through a passage that fed all the tubes together.Water flows up through the tubes and into the water chamber above the tubes.Then there is a passage in the center of the cell that the water flows back down through,and out of the cell back to the tank.
More will follow.
Don
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Don this gives me the impression that the system is not under pressure when in operation, what do you think?
Where is the pump situated, is it pumping before the inlets of the tubes, or is it sucking from the outlets ?
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More details about the cell chamber.
The top of the chamber has a pressure relief valve set by spring pressure.There is also a 0-50 psi transducer to monitor said pressures.Also the gas output port is there as well.The outlet port has the quenching tube hooked to it.This tube has five sets of six holes in it.These holes are between .010-.015 inches each.It's about 5/16 inch dia.
At the base is where the water inlet and outlet are located.This cell is run under pressure.The water pump is the same as a late model fuel injection type of pump.Albiet with stainless internals.
On the inside wall there was five or six screws that went through to the outside in a single row going from the bottom up.These I would take to be a water level sensor.
So thats all there is to the cell itself.
The most important thing here is the tubes are completely covered in delrin.
Don
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More details about the cell chamber.
The top of the chamber has a pressure relief valve set by spring pressure.There is also a 0-50 psi transducer to monitor said pressures.Also the gas output port is there as well.The outlet port has the quenching tube hooked to it.This tube has five sets of six holes in it.These holes are between .010-.015 inches each.It's about 5/16 inch dia.
At the base is where the water inlet and outlet are located.This cell is run under pressure.The water pump is the same as a late model fuel injection type of pump.Albiet with stainless internals.
On the inside wall there was five or six screws that went through to the outside in a single row going from the bottom up.These I would take to be a water level sensor.
So thats all there is to the cell itself.
The most important thing here is the tubes are completely covered in delrin.
Don
Thanks Don.
The question is still how much flow of gas can one tube set handle. Brian and I made many tests with tubes. There is a limit on the flow of gas.
How much gas should one tube deliver?
Steve
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I don't think that anybody has even come close to finding out how much gas a tube can flow.You may have pumped alot of amps through a cee,and seen alot of gas and think that's all it will do,but I don't think your close.
If you pump water up through your tubes like Stan's cell,than you will be able to really make gas.That's only going to happen with resonace.Your not going to see it with straight electrolysis.
I don't have any idea on how much gas you can get.But if Stan's writings are for real,than he states 5 gallons of water per hour with one set of 3 inch tubes.
Don
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Lets do the math! :D
3 inch tube set, 1/8 inch gap, 5 gallons per hour, as per the control and driver patent
I know 1/16th inch gap is mentioned in other documents, but 5 gallons per hour is only mentioned with the 1/8th inch gap, as far as i know.
5 gallons per hour is 5.26 ml per second
1 US gallon = 3 785.41178 ml
((3 785.41178 x 5) / 60) / 60 = 5.25751636
5.26 ml of water is split per second
5.26 ml *1800 = 9460 ml of fuel gas per second (Hydrogen, Oxygen, Dissolved Air)
= 2.50 gallons of gas per second
What is the volume of the water gap?
V = A * L
L = 3 inch
A = Pi(1 inch)*2 - Pi(.5 inch)&2 = 2.356 inch^2
V = 2.356*3 = 7.0685 cubic inch
7.0685 (cubic inch) = 115.831962 ml
Basically, we have to have a flow rate equal (actually, GREATER than) to the gas production, which is 2.5 gallons at zero pressure, what pressure does this operate at? up to 50 psi?
Say at max pressure, 50 psi, and using the density of the gas as the same as air, you have 4.407 times the density, so at 50 psi we could have the flow rate 4.407 times less than 2.5 gallons per second, so that is 2.4/4.407 = 0.567 gallons per second, or ...
Water flow rate into tube set must be = 2147 ml per second or, 2.2 liter per second, or 129 liter per minute.
At pressures lower than 50 psi, you would need a higher flow rate than this... at 20 psi you would need... 4 liters per second, or 240 liters per minute
How fast is the water moving? (at 20 psi)
Flow rate = Area * Velocity
4000 ml = 0.0015199 square meters * Velocity
Velocity = 2.63 meters per second
That is not exceptionally fast...
so you would need to move about a gallon per second, to each tube set, now I assume the cell used in that patent was a single tube set
This cell Don is talking about with 11 tube sets (10 used) might have a 1/16th inch gap, i don't know. But I imagine he was not using a pump that big, and that he was not getting the same production.
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Donald,your math is wrong on the gap volume.
A=Pi*R^2
A= Area
Pi=3.14159...
R^2=Radius squared
V=A*L
V=volume
L=length
outside tube id = .750 inches (.375 inch radius)
inside tube od = .500 inches (.250 inch radius)
.375 * .375 = .140625 inches
.250 * .250 = .0625 inches
3.14159...* .140626 = .441786467 square inches, outside tube id
3.14159...* .0625 = .196349541 square inches, inside tube od
.441789609 * 3 = 1.325359401 cubic inches
.196349541 * 3 = .589048623 cubic inches
1.325359401 - .589048623 = .736310778 cubic inches area
Those are the numbers I get
Don
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Ah... I used Diameter instead of Radius... that changes everything!
I'll redo the math tomorrow...
V=Pi*R^2
V= volume
Pi=3.14159...
R^2=Radius squared
And your V for Volume, should be A for Area, for that formula.
Otherwise... V=Pi*R^2*L, Where L is length
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tuning into the dielectric properties of water... what does stan mean by this... to tune into a insulator?.. the best way i see it is he means one must tune into waters breakdown point... like for instance lets say we have a fuel cell and we were able to calculate how long it took for the cavity to cap 1 volt of potential.. if we measure the time then we know the speed at which displacment is occuring in a meduim... now what if were were to use that basic formula to calculate break down points at higher voltages.. for example if it takes 1 second for the resonant cavity to take on a difference of 1 volt then whouldnt that same medium take one 600 volts in 1/600 of a second and if you were to pulse that as a 50 percent duty you would have 300 pulses a second haveing the 1/600 of a second to dissapate the pulse fully and allow for the lax time as well
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Hi Dynodon,
Did you happen to come across the electrostatic water filter during your visits? I appreciate your topics thanks.
Andy
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I haven't seen the electrostatic filter,but I wasn't looking.It may be on the buggy,I'll look for it the next time I go down there.
Don
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Stans water capacitor
Please read about the 2 different vic's.
One with SS resistance wire and 1 with copper wire.
This means:
setup 1 = 1 stepup transformer with separated chokes = copper = picture 3-22
setup 2 = 1 pulsingcore with all coils on it, from primairy, secondairy and chokes = picture 3-23
Here the explanation of the copper wire VIC.....
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Figure 3-23 is not SS wire, it's Copper wire, as Dynodon has described previously, he has seen this VIC.
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Hi Dynodon,
Haven't seen anything added here lately. I was wondering you said that the resonant cell had 11 tubes but only 10 were connected to individual vics if I remember correctly. I'm wondering how was that one resonant cell being used in the circuit. I can't imagine it would be sitting there doing nothing. Maybe a little asymmetric thinking is in order.
Another thing to note I came across something about a unipolar transformer that the inventor decided he wasn't going to patent and was going to free source yet I can't find any information regarding this except it keeps bringing me back to a company selling transformers. Puzzling.
Andy
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I have been very busy working with my own project and haven't had time to add to my topics.
The resonance cell had only 10 tubes working.The last tube wasn't even hooked up to anything.I think that was because the control panel was built with the 11 channels,but one slot was used to run the steam resonator.
Don't know anything about the transformer you mentioned
Don
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Visualization of the resonance cell.
br,
webmug
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coils on the left side are top to bottom
primary
feedback
secondary
chokes on the right side
Don
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WEBMUG "(11VICs PLLs) 1 missing. I'm not sure here?"
I couldn't resist!
This is the 11th card, you are looking at it. They all appear the same card.
So it seems this card is pretty slim and maybe we can figure the actual size of the coils has to be fairly small, not robust.
Maybe part of a cards behind it...
br,
webmug
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that vic coil pack sitting on the floor plugs into the back side of each one of those cards in the control panel.One coil pack per control card for 10 cells.The last card controlled the water feed.Only 10 cells were used.The eleveth one wasn't hooked up.
Don
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Dyno, thanks for all the efforts.
Do you think you can find out the winding directions of the 3-23 VIC from the real assembly?
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Don,
Before we are all gonna start guessing about how much windings, can you provide that here?
I also wanna know if you have tried to make one setup running of the resonant cavity.
Steve
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The exhaust air reclaimer is another system all together,haven't seen it.
Never know an EPG to be used on the buggy.
The winding directions are in the tech brief,all clockwise,and in the same direction around the core.
I don't know the number of windings,but I know that I described the bobbin and core sizes on this site somewhere else.You'll have to look for them.
No no one has tried to put anything together to test.It's not that easy to just through it together.
The owner doesn't understand the tech,so he won't try anything that might damage it.
Thats why he needs funds,to put together a team to do just that.It will take money for that alone.
Don
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I don't know what rcc2 your talking about,All coils were clockwise,and the same way around the core.
Don
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RCC2 = resonant charging choke (62)
Not clockwise wound according to this picture.
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Alan,that picture is still wound in the same direction,just wired in a different phase,ends hooked oppisite to the other choke.
webmug,I don't know what that sytem is doing on the buggy.I still haven'r read anything on it.
It's not there with the rest of Stan's stuff.
Don
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Don, do you think this will make a good/worthwhile core for a resonant VIC? It is out of a big old TV flyback.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture87.png)
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I think that just about anything will work,I've wound many types and sizes,and they all work.It just comes down to what size Henries your after.That core won't need as many turns to get to your target as would an iron core material.
As you start tuning ,you'll see the differences really quick.
That's alot like the core I'm using
Don
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I think that just about anything will work,I've wound many types and sizes,and they all work.It just comes down to what size Henries your after.That core won't need as many turns to get to your target as would an iron core material.
As you start tuning ,you'll see the differences really quick.
That's alot like the core I'm using
Don
Don,
How do they work and what do they do? Right? :D
What are you tuning onto and what do you see? I guess none of the below setups.
-Resonance LCR series/parallel
-Parasitic Resonance
-Resonance Cavity
-Parametric Resonance
-Resonance Waveguide
I assume you are targeting (first) only on the demo WFC (tubes/plates) setups and that these setups don't do more gas output then electrolysis.
Only a different method :D
My understanding is when one of the above method's are incorporated, we can see more gas output.
That's what Stan did, incorporating more effective methods creating higher powerful pulling static fields... (voltage amplitude)
br,
webmug