A green and clean environment is a human right!
Projects by members => Projects by members => Steve => Topic started by: Steve on November 12, 2009, 14:47:41 pm
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Hi,
After rebuilding my wfc, i went for test on my 600cc 4cylinder Yamaha motorbike.
In the last test, i was able to idle this bike, but now i could even rev it up to 3500 rpm.
And that with a 1300watt powerconsumtion of my wfc.
Here a picture and a video.
Steve
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Great steve!! Nice work!!
That's a lot better than a lawnmower set-up! ;D
And it sounds great!
Did you adjust the spark timing on your bike for this?
Webmug
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Great steve!! Nice work!!
That's a lot better than a lawnmower setup! ;D
And it sounds great!
Did you adjust the spark timing on your bike for this?
Webmug
Thank you.
No, i didn't adjust any timing. Its all standard setup.
There is some gain in adjusting the timing, i ll guess.
Maybe laters when i am going to run my car on it.
It would have been possible to run this bike on the road, if i had big suitcases...
Steve
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Nice going, Steve. Using gasoline in the GEET ??
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Nice going, Steve. Using gasoline in the GEET ??
No geet , yet, on the bike.
So, its all just 1 waterfuelcell powering the bike.
Steve
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just one fuel cell huh.. as in one tube or as in array? lol congrats man keep it up buddy i wanna see a 6 cylinder up in reving by next week.
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just one fuel cell huh.. as in one tube or as in array? lol congrats man keep it up buddy i wanna see a 6 cylinder up in reving by next week.
1 tube of 3 inch.....Wohaaaaa.....
Its more like a 60 plate serie drycell......... ;)
Steve
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my bad i didnt watch the video until after i posted the last message.. had me a dumb moment of not fully observating
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can you use it on an electrical generator instead of a motorbike?
or calculate how much power the bike draws at 3500rpm?
it's all about the numbers ;)
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can you use it on an electrical generator instead of a motorbike?
or calculate how much power the bike draws at 3500rpm?
it's all about the numbers ;)
Good questions.
I start to hate my power generator a little bit. Thats mostly because its a 1 cylinder engine and has a waistspark. My bike doesnt.
Its also clear to me that a bigger engine works better then a smaller one, in my case.
My bike has around 85bhp at high revs..... I will look up to see what how much power it has at 3500rpm...
Steve
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i'm no expert but could there be a difference to power when you drive at 3500rpm or when you idle at 3500rpm? so that the power consumption of your bike in idle is below this 1300W?
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i'm no expert but could there be a difference to power when you drive at 3500rpm or when you idle at 3500rpm? so that the power consumption of your bike in idle is below this 1300W?
Of course, you need more power to drive then to idle. You can hear the power when i rev the engine. Its absolutly not without power.
Well, i hope it inspires you all! It did to me :)
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Stevie
This is EXCELLENT!! Well done!!!
Did you make any important changes to your 60 series cell, I assume it is a 5 series x 12 in parallel, or 6 x 10?
Are you using NaOH/KOH?
Wouter
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Stevie
This is EXCELLENT!! Well done!!!
Did you make any important changes to your 60 series cell, I assume it is a 5 series x 12 in parallel, or 6 x 10?
Are you using NaOH/KOH?
Wouter
Wouter, i changed my view on things a bit.
As you know, i ran always on tapwater without naoh or koh.
But there are 2 big issues with that.
1. its less efficient
2. The brown scum is terrible, even with all the filters in the world.
The only way to get a reasonable production with tapwater is with a tiny gap and the brown scum likes it there very much. So, my plates have been sanded for the third time in half a year now.
So, current cell is with the same plates of 30cm by 10cm. But it has now a gap of 1mm in stead of 0.5mm.
I was advised to go to 3mm, but with my low height of 10cm, it can be reduced to 1mm.
Thanks to Ausepom, i switched the holes per plate, meaning, not 1 hole is in a strait line with the next one.
I also played now for first time with KOH and NAOH. It seems my cell like NAOH a fraction better.
Its not the best cell in the world, but for the plates i have, it does a good job.
All 60 plates are in serie. Accoording to Faraday it does a 87%.
I tried other options, like 5 series of 12, but what i try, i always end up with one big seriecell.
To be honest, 50 plates would be the best, but i needed more gas, so i added 10 extra.
I have some plates left, so maybe i will make me a 13.8V version as extra.
Does your tubecells still doing 95% efficiency?
Steve
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Steve
Very nice!
The "WaterfuelForAll" 6 series tubular design does 2 liter per minute @ 20 amps, 13.8VDC. At room temperature this converts to 2.16W/lph which is 93.9% Faraday efficiency.
How many Volts are you supplying to your 60 plate cell? (My guess would be around 140V)
So are you saying that with a "normal" series cell consuming +-1300W you are able to run your 600c bike at 3500 rpm? Do I understand you correct?
Wouter
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Steve
Very nice!
The "WaterfuelForAll" 6 series tubular design does 2 liter per minute @ 20 amps, 13.8VDC. At room temperature this converts to 2.16W/lph which is 93.9% Faraday efficiency.
How many Volts are you supplying to your 60 plate cell? (My guess would be around 140V)
So are you saying that with a "normal" series cell consuming +-1300W you are able to run your 600c bike at 3500 rpm? Do I understand you correct?
Wouter
Hi Wouter,
60 plates = 59 cells
Volts/amps needed to run the bike on 3500 rpms = 124V by 11A = 2,10V per cell
Volts/amps needed to idle the bike on 1000 rpms = 122V by 9A = 2,06V per cell
The amount of litres HHO is very difficult to measure. This, because i use a 1,5ltr bottle and it filled in seconds....At 9 amps its like 6/7 litres a minute...At 11A it does like 8/9 litres a minute.
If you send me 10 of your 2 litres a minute cells, i will demo for you a running car!
Steve
Ps.
I will try tomorrow a 1.4 litre Renault Clio. See if it will idle..... ;)
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I'm guessing you may be heating the gas Steve? :)
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I'm guessing you may be heating the gas Steve? :)
For sure, it will not work on a cold engine......
Steve
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...For sure, it will not work on a cold engine......
Steve
So you start on petrol and then change over to HHO when the engine is hot?
Are you relying on the waste heat in the inlet tract and chamber to expand the gas volume?
Do you have any sort of heat exchanger to heat the gas?
Heat should increase the amount of orthohydrogen.
Have you done any research on producing monatomic H?
This should "double" the volume of H gas with a far more reactive form of H, said to give off more energy than that reqd to split H2 into H.
UV Light is one of the methods and will also affect the O2...
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I'm guessing you may be heating the gas Steve? :)
For sure, it will not work on a cold engine......
Steve
Hello steve
1° congratulations great job
2° could you enlighten me explaining why wouldn't work on a cold engine?
thanks
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...For sure, it will not work on a cold engine......
Steve
So you start on petrol and then change over to HHO when the engine is hot?
Are you relying on the waste heat in the inlet tract and chamber to expand the gas volume?
Do you have any sort of heat exchanger to heat the gas?
Heat should increase the amount of orthohydrogen.
Have you done any research on producing monatomic H?
This should "double" the volume of H gas with a far more reactive form of H, said to give off more energy than that reqd to split H2 into H.
UV Light is one of the methods and will also affect the O2...
Yes, thats correct. First run the engine hot and then switch to HHO.
I am pretty sure that the hot carbs function as gas expander, yes.
I am making plans to make a big spiral around my double exhaust as heat exchanger and see if i ll get a big raise in temp and then see what that brings.. :)
I know the theory about the balance between ortho and para. That sad things is that nobody can measure such fenomenon....At least, i cant. I only can act on what i see is working.
The other thing to test is HV on the gas and try to get more energy into the gas..Maybe even with an EEC after that. The truth about using HV with oxygen is that you will get ozon.
And that i maybe blow up my stuff as well....So that will be the next step, after making that heat exchanger.
The UV story is nice, but i tried a great bundle of LEDS in many waveforms. Nothing happend to the flame which i used for my tests.So, thats for me a myth.
At least, i have a working setup with my Bike, on which i can develop now. Its much more realistic then my grasmower and less dangerous (waist spark).....
Steve
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If you heat the gas it will expand,
wont the gas be to much big for a good power equalization??, i mean wont you have too much lower power than the engine than gasoline ?
I knew a brazilian who told me he was able to run a 4.1liters car on h2 from water and he told me that if you make a heat exchanger the way you described you have more powerful explosion from the same gas. I didn't prove that yet as i believe you would need at least 1 liter h2 02 per second to run a car well. He also used a heat exchanger that heat up the cell up to about 90° celsius. Than the reaction would occur.
;)
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Question,
Your limited to 3500 rpm is that because of production or delivery? in otherwords could you increase how far the gas stretches by diluting it with atmosphere? If your engine is running lean on the HHO you could increase the "amount" of gas by mixing it with air. Like adjusting the fuel to air ratio on a car normally.
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Steve I am going to do this when I start trying to run engines, you may find this a useful idea too:
Set up three identical carburetors attached to the single intake manifold, where:
The first carburetor is for the gasses from the cell (hydrogen, oxygen, and dissolved air gasses)
The second carburetor is for the exhaust gasses from the engine, which may have to be cooled
The third carburetor is for ambient air, and eventually ionized ambient air
Then you have complete control over the fuel mixture, and can set up each carburetor as needed, tune it, and set up the throttle so they all work together as required.
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Question,
Your limited to 3500 rpm is that because of production or delivery? in otherwords could you increase how far the gas stretches by diluting it with atmosphere? If your engine is running lean on the HHO you could increase the "amount" of gas by mixing it with air. Like adjusting the fuel to air ratio on a car normally.
Its already a mix with ambient air and HHO.
Steve
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Steve I am going to do this when I start trying to run engines, you may find this a useful idea too:
Set up three identical carburetors attached to the single intake manifold, where:
The first carburetor is for the gasses from the cell (hydrogen, oxygen, and dissolved air gasses)
The second carburetor is for the exhaust gasses from the engine, which may have to be cooled
The third carburetor is for ambient air, and eventually ionized ambient air
Then you have complete control over the fuel mixture, and can set up each carburetor as needed, tune it, and set up the throttle so they all work together as required.
Nice ideas.
Not sure on the exhaust gasses, btw. In my tests, they didnt improve anything.
Steve
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Steve I am going to do this when I start trying to run engines, you may find this a useful idea too:
Set up three identical carburetors attached to the single intake manifold, where:
The first carburetor is for the gasses from the cell (hydrogen, oxygen, and dissolved air gasses)
The second carburetor is for the exhaust gasses from the engine, which may have to be cooled
The third carburetor is for ambient air, and eventually ionized ambient air
Then you have complete control over the fuel mixture, and can set up each carburetor as needed, tune it, and set up the throttle so they all work together as required.
Nice ideas.
Not sure on the exhaust gasses, btw. In my tests, they didnt improve anything.
Steve
The Exhaust didn't improve anything for me either, However, Stan Clearly States that the Exhaust Gases Must be Cooled Down before it is mixed, Or Mixed than Cooled down, I forget. But the gas can not be Hot exhaust.
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I am making plans to make a big spiral around my double exhaust as heat exchanger and see if i ll get a big raise in temp and then see what that brings.. :)
Remenber tyhat the autoignition temp of H is 500C.
The compression stroke will also increase the temp of the mixture; so the gas mixture entering the engine will have to be well below 500C.
If not; the the mixture will ignite during the compression stroke, try to drive the piston back and bye-bye engine.
The UV story is nice, but i tried a great bundle of LEDS in many waveforms. Nothing happend to the flame which i used for my tests.So, thats for me a myth.
Dont throw the LED's away yet; it seems that high temp helps.
(The link I have wont post. :( )
What frequencies of light are said to be best for this?
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LEDs in the ranges Stan specifies (visual range, and specifically red) do not have small enough wavelengths to ionize anything individually, however they do add energy to the atoms, as photon/light/laser energy, and move the electrons farther from the nucleus, up to the maximum absorbed rate, this makes it *easier* for the voltage to pull off the electrons, but the LEDs themselves are not powerful enough to do anything. (To ionize with LEDs alone you would need to go into the deep-ultra-violet range with a wavelength of around 100 nm or so, and these things are expensive to rare to non-existent)
Get a working VIC then you can add LEDs to make the process more efficient!
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LEDs in the ranges Stan specifies (visual range, and specifically red) do not have small enough wavelengths to ionize anything individually, however they do add energy to the atoms, as photon/light/laser energy, and move the electrons farther from the nucleus, up to the maximum absorbed rate, this makes it *easier* for the voltage to pull off the electrons, but the LEDs themselves are not powerful enough to do anything. (To ionize with LEDs alone you would need to go into the deep-ultra-violet range with a wavelength of around 100 nm or so, and these things are expensive to rare to non-existent)
Get a working VIC then you can add LEDs to make the process more efficient!
Heating Hydroen with the right Wave Length... Hrm...
How about Heating Air with the correct wave length... What leds would be good use for heating Air? LOL, Well, its quite like this,, You can put air in a metal cylinder and heat that cylinder, That air will become heated just as hydrogen would become heated. When an atom becomes ionized, Talking on the atomic level the electron moves away from the nucleus! Just as the Oxygen electron moved away from the nucleus when the oxygen was placed in the metal heated cylinder. Heat causes this effect. You can simply use the right "Wave Length" of led to move the hydrogens electron away from its nuc, Or, you can do it the simple way and use a heat source. Both techniquies will cause the electron to move and both will move the electron. In Fact, When you say use a led to cause ionization of an atom instead of using heat, "Its like you're reinventing the wheel." Lots of folks Simply Can not compute those facts, But its very basic knowledge that can be very easily understood.
Heated Atoms get bigger in mass, Causing the electrons to move outward. Depending on how far the electron moved outward determins that atoms Nanameter wavelength due to the Frequency at which the electron orbits the nucleus. Use the proper led, or heat source the atom will react the same no matter the source used. However, (If you are trying to use a Led Photo,) You had better hit that resonate freq which causes the electron to move outward.. Or Simply put... Chunk the led in the garbadge an heat it some other way and forget all about the nanometer. Thats way to technical and it is by no means neccaserry required to get the job done. Google how the electrons Distance from the nucleus is used to Determine how hot the atom is. There comes a time of ionization. Learn exactly what that means when it comes to the electron. Its simple. To Create Water Gas using water and coal ionization is also a must. Look in that area as well.
Thats just my off topic post, Hopefully stevie want get to angry with me. I'll send him a beer, Cheers.
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LEDs in the ranges Stan specifies (visual range, and specifically red) do not have small enough wavelengths to ionize anything individually, however they do add energy to the atoms, as photon/light/laser energy, and move the electrons farther from the nucleus, up to the maximum absorbed rate, this makes it *easier* for the voltage to pull off the electrons, but the LEDs themselves are not powerful enough to do anything. (To ionize with LEDs alone you would need to go into the deep-ultra-violet range with a wavelength of around 100 nm or so, and these things are expensive to rare to non-existent)
Get a working VIC then you can add LEDs to make the process more efficient!
Heating Hydroen with the right Wave Length... Hrm...
How about Heating Air with the correct wave length... What leds would be good use for heating Air? LOL, Well, its quite like this,, You can put air in a metal cylinder and heat that cylinder, That air will become heated just as hydrogen would become heated. When an atom becomes ionized, Talking on the atomic level the electron moves away from the nucleus! Just as the Oxygen electron moved away from the nucleus when the oxygen was placed in the metal heated cylinder. Heat causes this effect. You can simply use the right "Wave Length" of led to move the hydrogens electron away from its nuc, Or, you can do it the simple way and use a heat source. Both techniquies will cause the electron to move and both will move the electron. In Fact, When you say use a led to cause ionization of an atom instead of using heat, "Its like you're reinventing the wheel." Lots of folks Simply Can not compute those facts, But its very basic knowledge that can be very easily understood.
Heated Atoms get bigger in mass, Causing the electrons to move outward. Depending on how far the electron moved outward determins that atoms Nanameter wavelength due to the Frequency at which the electron orbits the nucleus. Use the proper led, or heat source the atom will react the same no matter the source used. However, (If you are trying to use a Led Photo,) You had better hit that resonate freq which causes the electron to move outward.. Or Simply put... Chunk the led in the garbadge an heat it some other way and forget all about the nanometer. Thats way to technical and it is by no means neccaserry required to get the job done. Google how the electrons Distance from the nucleus is used to Determine how hot the atom is. There comes a time of ionization. Learn exactly what that means when it comes to the electron. Its simple. To Create Water Gas using water and coal ionization is also a must. Look in that area as well.
Thats just my off topic post, Hopefully stevie want get to angry with me. I'll send him a beer, Cheers.
A beer is always welcome.. ;)
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Hey Steve,
I understand that this is targeted at straight HHO running an engine but you said you think that Mr Meyers ran his engine on fuel first then switched to HHO once hot to use the exhaust. If you ran the engine extremely ambient rich this would heat the engine up very quickly...
Also the exhaust would heat up far faster than the actual engine. As this is produced on demand there would need to be "some" HHO left in the system once the car is turned off. Using an idea similar to the choke of a car could you not throttle the amount of ambient air into the engine and simply quell the amount of fuel so that the engines exhaust is a lot warmer on start up? i think you could almost use the heat from the exhaust straight away meaning that there would be no need to start it up on petrol first.
Things to take into account would be the sudden heat stress on the exhaust valves, they are already pretty sturdy but from my understanding cars have been running reasonably ambient lean until the engine heats up at which point the mix changes.
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Hang on!?
Steve; cant you even start the engine on the cold output of your cell?
One would think it would idle on cold volumes?
Now; to double hydrogen volume! :)
http://www.pondtech.net/uv.html (http://www.pondtech.net/uv.html)
http://www.tootoo.com/buy-uv_water_sterilizer/ (http://www.tootoo.com/buy-uv_water_sterilizer/)
:)
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Hang on!?
Steve; cant you even start the engine on the cold output of your cell?
One would think it would idle on cold volumes?
Now; to double hydrogen volume! :)
http://www.pondtech.net/uv.html (http://www.pondtech.net/uv.html)
http://www.tootoo.com/buy-uv_water_sterilizer/ (http://www.tootoo.com/buy-uv_water_sterilizer/)
:)
There are some issues on the coldstart. First, you need more fuel.
I think i do not produce enough HHO to make it run cold.
At the top of my current tests, my cell produces around 9 ltres per minute....
Thats basically because otherwise i blow upmy variac. I already have mounted a fan on it, preventing it to burn up. Its a max 4 amp variac and i punish it with a load till around 11 at top.
At 9 amps, the engine idles. At 11 it revs up till up 3500rpm.
Second, the engineparts are having more tolerance and hydrogen goes anywhere.
I think i do not produce enough HHO to make it run cold.
At the top of my current tests, my cell produces around 9 ltres per minute....
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Hang on!?
Steve; cant you even start the engine on the cold output of your cell?
One would think it would idle on cold volumes?
Now; to double hydrogen volume! :)
http://www.pondtech.net/uv.html (http://www.pondtech.net/uv.html)
http://www.tootoo.com/buy-uv_water_sterilizer/ (http://www.tootoo.com/buy-uv_water_sterilizer/)
:)
It crossed my mint too. I have seen those UV lamps. They seem to have to right frequency.
I am now on the mindset to make the ambient air gasprocessor in comby with my current running bike setup.
I am a little scared to build me a HV tubeset with leds or other UV provider in comby with HHO.
After reading Stans doc, where he used HHO injector on the intake and a ambient air gasprcessor, i was thinking that that should be a good way to progress. So, stopping with the heatexchanger.
If i would get any reaction with such an airgasprocessor, lets say, i would get rocketfuell, then next step would be the waterspray injector in comy with that airporcessor.
Steve
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Cold water fog or super fine water mist might be something easy to try. Water to steam expansion is 1:1800 by volume. Also what Herman Anderson used. The finer the better.
Andy