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Projects by members => Projects by members => Radiant_1 => Topic started by: Radiant_1 on September 24, 2009, 09:52:12 am
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While studying possible "passive" oscillators, I stumbled upon the Multipactor effect...more precisely the "Farnsworth Multipactor".
It then dawned on me the significance of "matching the electrode gap (in respect to the time it takes a water molecule to traverse it) to the frequency of the physical pulse applied to the electrodes" as stated by Stanl Meyer
Let me first describe the "Multipactor" effect...
It was noticed by the "Father of Television" P. Farnsworth, that at certain modes of operation there was a faint blueish glow in a region between the cathode filament and the anode plate of simple diode tube rectifiers . This observation led to the discovery of the "Multipactor" effect, which is very similar to the "Photoelectric effect" in nature. This being that high velocity electrons will slam back into the cathode under very controlled conditions, and release 2-8 more electrons per impact.
Two-surface multipactor on metals
This is a multipactor that occurs in the gap between metallic electrodes. Often, an RF electric field is normal to the surface. A resonance between electron flight time and rf field cycle is a mechanism for multipactor development.
The existence of multipactor is dependent on the following three conditions being met: The average number of electrons released is greater than or equal to one per incident electron (this is dependent on the secondary electron yield of the surface) and the time taken by the electron to travel from the surface from which it was released to the surface it impacts with is an integer multiple of one half of the RF period and the average secondary electron yield is greater than or equal to one.
Single-surface multipactor on dielectrics
This is a multipactor that occurs on a dielectric surface. Often, an RF electric field is parallel to the surface. The positive charge accumulated on the dielectric surface returns electrons back to the surface. A single surface multipactor event is also possible on a metallic surface in the presence of a crossed static magnetic field.
With that being said let me show you now why I believe this effect is paralleled in Meyer's process
As per European patent EP0103656A2
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/Jdub6d9/Untitled-2-1.jpg)
The statement "As understood in resonant cavities of an electron nature..." is a direct reference to "Multipactor" action...if that isn't enough this blatantly spells it out for us.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/Jdub6d9/Untitled-3.jpg)
This explains the "Physical" aspect Meyer was talking about...it explains why he states the gap distance is critical...and it explains this image
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/Jdub6d9/Untitled-4.jpg)
And all other waveguide pictures in Stan's patents...it is showing the back and fourth nature of electrons/ions in a precisely timed resonant pulse/cavity interaction
To figure this out we need to figure out how fast the water molecule/water ions (Hydrogen and Oxygen BEFORE neutralizing) move towards the electrodes (I suspect this variable depending on the electrode potential). Then we must figure out how to supliment extra energy into the system (as the atomic collisions lose some energy during their collisions). I suspect the VIC being wound around the cell and the extra photon energy does exactly this in the Meyer system (that's why the LED array is pulsed at the same resonant frequency).
Anyway, I strongly encourage all readers to research the Multipactor effect and the Farnsworth Multipactor called the "Fusor" to come to a conclusion of their own.
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One more thought............
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/Jdub6d9/Missinglink.jpg)
The transformer puts out an AC output...being only one single diode is being used in conjunction with a choke coil means that the pulse would create a magnetic field in the coil as it conducts to ground. As the pulse shuts down the diode shuts down too...as the sustaining electron flow shuts off the field in the inductor(s) collapses and reverses (sending reverse voltage to electrodes)...this would (if properly timed) repel the incoming ions back to their source.
I think I have really stumbled onto it this time...please tell me what you all think
P.S. I do not claim any one effect is responsible for Meyer's OU claims...instead it is a cumulative effect...we must keep an open mind and realize that Meyer brought many specialized fields together in one application (not at once...his efforts evolved into a pinnacle of perfection, on paper or otherwise)
As Leonardo Da Vinci put it....
"IF YOU GET IT RIGHT ON PAPER, IT WILL WORK."
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One more thought............
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/Jdub6d9/Missinglink.jpg)
The transformer puts out an AC output...being only one single diode is being used in conjunction with a choke coil means that the pulse would create a magnetic field in the coil as it conducts to ground. As the pulse shuts down the diode shuts down too...as the sustaining electron flow shuts off the field in the inductor(s) collapses and reverses (sending reverse voltage to electrodes)...this would (if properly timed) repel the incoming ions back to their source.
I think I have really stumbled onto it this time...please tell me what you all think
P.S. I do not claim any one effect is responsible for Meyer's OU claims...instead it is a cumulative effect...we must keep an open mind and realize that Meyer brought many specialized fields together in one application (not at once...his efforts evolved into a pinnacle of perfection, on paper or otherwise)
As Leonardo Da Vinci put it....
"IF YOU GET IT RIGHT ON PAPER, IT WILL WORK."
You talk about changing polarity on the wfc? Thats not gonna work, i think. Stan talks about always keeping the same polarity. My tests say the same.
But we dont know it all for sure, so, give it a try, i would say.
The question on how quick electrons travel, well, look at yr wfc when you start it up.
Most cells take like 3 seconds before anything happen.
Steve
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I'm not saying that we change the polarity...anytime you turn off power to an inductor the collapsing field produces a reversed voltage.
Our pulses are constant polarity...but every time we shut the pulse off, the polarity will reverse across ALL inductors. Not my opinion...BEMF fact.
A diode can't stop it from happening...it can only influence where this reverse back rush goes (in this case back through the tube set)
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Very interesting Radiant_1
This ties in with the thoughts in this thread:
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1166.0.html (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1166.0.html)
Page saved to HDD and looking into the Multipactor effect now.
Thx
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@Logic
Yeah I was thinking about that when it clicked for me...here is a page about Farnsworth's Multipactor tubes
http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/multipact.htm (http://www.borderlands.com/archives/arch/multipact.htm)
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Gauss, if you want to debate piezo....you can PM me. I will try and respond to you in a timely manner. This thread however, has nothing to do with piezo (it may however, be a good way to add extra energy to the molecules??)...anyway, I am going to remove the piezo stuff. Please refrain from digressing from the point of this thread ;)
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@Logic
Yeah I was thinking about that when it clicked for me...here is a page about Farnsworth's Multipactor tubes...
Hope it was my posts that 'clicked' it for you! LOL! :)
Do you think perhaps Steves Pulsed Signal may be a small bit of this effect?
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1182.0.html (http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,1182.0.html)
There is simulation software out there for predicting this effect!
http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~alfonsec/docs/confint/mc139871.pdf (http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~alfonsec/docs/confint/mc139871.pdf)
It would seem that CEST is actually the software we want:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X3C-4T72WXH-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1023691932&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c3315adf670791964cf289315b0ed9d3 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X3C-4T72WXH-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1023691932&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c3315adf670791964cf289315b0ed9d3)
I think the best chance of getting our grubby mits on this software is through this guy:
http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~jlara/investigacion/ (http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~jlara/investigacion/)
http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~jlara/ (http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~jlara/)
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Very nice Logic!
I cannot say for sure, but, if Steve had an accurate meter reading true RMS, then it is possible that the extra wattage discrepancy despite lower duty cycle could be from electron collisions.
I doubt I will ever see the MEST or CEST software (as they are NASA tools, and carry a hefty price tag)....but I did find this.
http://repositorio.bib.upct.es/dspace/bitstream/10317/659/1/ame.pdf (http://repositorio.bib.upct.es/dspace/bitstream/10317/659/1/ame.pdf)
Going over the document now, but it looks like it could help out.
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Very nice Logic!
I cannot say for sure, but, if Steve had an accurate meter reading true RMS, then it is possible that the extra wattage discrepancy despite lower duty cycle could be from electron collisions.
I doubt I will ever see the MEST or CEST software (as they are NASA tools, and carry a hefty price tag)....but I did find this.
http://repositorio.bib.upct.es/dspace/bitstream/10317/659/1/ame.pdf (http://repositorio.bib.upct.es/dspace/bitstream/10317/659/1/ame.pdf)
Going over the document now, but it looks like it could help out.
Steve has a true rms meter... ;)
Nice topic!
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Thx Radiant_1 :)
I also remember Bob B saying the bubbles form between the plates, not on them, just before his and Watkykjy's stuff burned out.
The document you linked to seems to be the same guys with the software.
I think the software could be invaluble in predicting and controlling this phenomenon.
I will keep looking.
http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~alfonsec/artint/mestcest.pdf (http://arantxa.ii.uam.es/~alfonsec/artint/mestcest.pdf)
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I believe this Multipactor effect explains a mysterious glow observed by WFC replicator Ravi....he sent me an email describing a faint glow in between the tubes.
Imagine that the water is the neutral gas atoms in this example of CR (or Corona effect)
In MP, the discharge occurs at vacuum, and is caused by the collision of electrons with the walls. In CR, the discharge occurs
at low pressures, with the presence of a gas in the waveguide and is produced by ionization of the gas neutral atoms. For
certain pressure ranges, we may find both kind of processes (ionization and wall collisions) contributing to the discharge.
This region is known as Multipactor plasma
I believe he was witnessing Multipactor Plasma
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I believe this Multipactor effect explains a mysterious glow observed by WFC replicator Ravi....he sent me an email describing a faint glow in between the tubes.
Imagine that the water is the neutral gas atoms in this example of CR (or Corona effect)
In MP, the discharge occurs at vacuum, and is caused by the collision of electrons with the walls. In CR, the discharge occurs
at low pressures, with the presence of a gas in the waveguide and is produced by ionization of the gas neutral atoms. For
certain pressure ranges, we may find both kind of processes (ionization and wall collisions) contributing to the discharge.
This region is known as Multipactor plasma
I believe he was witnessing Multipactor Plasma
I believe Warp (hydrocars) also seen glows in his wfc replication.
Steve
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I was given these two links...haven't downloaded the programs yet because I am out and about....will try them out when I get home.
http://multipactor.esa.int/whatis.html (http://multipactor.esa.int/whatis.html)
http://multipactor.esa.int/downloads.html (http://multipactor.esa.int/downloads.html)
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Fastimports sent me this link , I dunno if he has a real replication thi
here the message
You are exactly on the money. When this is pulsed to Mod Transformer there is a standing square wave that looks like Stans ramp charging affect he often shows. It would be nice to be able to push this signal @ about 200volts for experimenting purposes. I can only get up to about 40volts with audio amplifier.
THE ELECTRON PHASE SHIFT
http://www.glafreniere.com/sa_phaseshift.htm
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Just a note on changing the polarity. Does anyone else recall what Stan designed for the ...water holding tank for the car application? It was a circuit that changed polarity constantly at a very fast rate. This would Oscillate the water molecules causing friction in turn heating the water keeping it from freezing. Theoretically it could even super heat the water instantaneously if designed correctly. I know that this doesent really apply to what you are talking about here but it does show that "VIC" idea was applied to almost everything and everything would require a different configuration. I think it would benefit people to get a final goal in mind. Something like running a car or getting a torch so stay light solely on a WFC. Then you will have something to design toward. Otherwise you are just trying to make a random VIC or a random resonant cavity with an infinite amount of variables. Make a bullseye and shoot for it. So you want an electron extraction circuit to power a lightbulb OK great! but what are you extracting electrons from? Water? Ambient Air? are you going to use laser injection? are you going to try something more basic without lasers? This isn't really aimed at anyone particular its just the questions i ask myself. Any way I have made a stepping stone goal system for myself and I'm working on it as we speak. Stone 1: Rotary Pulse Voltage Frequency Generator-------Check
I found that it will not produce enough fast enough to sustain even the smallest flame. Thats the problem with a Proof of Concept, it only proves a concept!
Stone 2: Ill let you know when I'm standing on it!
I guess all im saying is that it seems like people are doing alot of trying to figure out one small component of a very large system. To me it seems like we need the whole sywstem in place and then mess with the variables like the # of winds on the VIC or what type of wire its made out of or what configuration works the best. In other words built the entire electron extraction circuit conplete with a resonant cavity and then if it doesent work right change something.
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@Bluesky
I know you said you aren't focusing your comment at anyone in particular....but, as it's my thread I feel I must address your comment ;)
I agree we need stepping stones...but, I am concerned with the ultimate goal of what we are trying to achieve, otherwise, we are building in the dark!
We must understand (or at least grasp the concept of) the physical concepts we are aiming for.
I definitely have a goal...yet my steps are incremental, and methodical. See, I have many resources and have built many things. They are however, small proofs of concepts and investigative tools...I haven't put all my collected materials together in some ultimate machine because I cannot afford such a pricey failure.
"Slow and steady wins the race"
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For sure! And I really didnt aim my comment at anyone in fact i wasnt even paying attention to who started this thread!
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Update , this guy was pretty smart . I am 99% sure this is related to the waveguide matching talked about in the Stephen patent .
On skype he really impressed me with his chemistry knowledge and I have a gift @ knowing whos smart , this guy was smart , the guy read alot of books .
Quote:
As understood in resonant cavities of an electron nature...
What is a resonant cavity of an electron nature ? What is the nature of a resonant cavity usually ?
Tutanka you know this guy right ? In fact I found your theory ( vague as it may be ) to be quite similar to what Radiant thinks .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect
I find this rather amazing ,
Quote: "An undistorted output of 25 watts was obtained from an input of 25 watts" ...
http://journal.borderlands.com/1988/the-farnsworth-multipactor-tube/
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it's nobody's theory
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It has been some time...I needed a break, both mentally and physically. Before I post anything else at all, please, please, please heed my warning. If you are seriously experimenting with high energy physics TAKE ALL NECESARRY PRECAUTIONS. I gave myself radiation sickness, lost hair (just starting to grow back), had several medical issues, and radiation isn't the only issue, be wary of heavy metals anytime you create an open air spark. I learned the hard way :(