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Projects by members => Projects by members => Donaldwfc => Topic started by: Donaldwfc on September 14, 2009, 21:54:17 pm
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I have built a Tubular Cluster Array from Stan's drawing, with four 3" tubes.
I have built a power source, consisting of a Variac, Diode Bridge, fuses, a 1/2 horse power motor @ 1725 rpm, pulley a bit greater than 2:1, and a de-regulated Delco Remy Alternator.
It is not finished, but it runs.
First Run (last night)
Tap Water
0-5 psi in about a minute, max on my gauge
Lots of scum, deposits and cloudy water
Up to 30 volts on the Variac, then blew a 5 amp fuse
Second Run (today)
Distilled Water
0-1 psi in a few minutes, extremely reduced production
No scum, no deposits, clear water
Up to ~50 Volts on the Variac, then blew 7.5 amp fuse
Motor can handle it
Alternator gets hot
Cell stays cool
Pretty much as you see in these diagrams.
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Third Run
Distilled Water
30 Volts on Variac
Timed to get to 5 psi... 20 minutes...
Forth Run
Distilled Water + Sea Salt (Bath Salt)
30 Volts on Variac...
Crazy Production, 0-5 psi in a second or two, salt water spitting out the top when I opened the valve
Not really set up to go over ~10 volts on the Variac
Makes yellowish cloudy water
Cell cleans up easily
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becarefull with salt, donald.
This way you also create toxic gasses.
Steve
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Thanks, yes, I was thinking about the Chlorine gas that would be produced. I won't be using any salt or electrolyte, mostly distilled water until I have that working as desired, with higher voltage, then preferably rainwater, I'll have to start collecting :).
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Fifth Run
Tap Water
30 Volts on Variac
Testing Quenching Circuit
-Supposedly 0.023" copper welding nozzles, one inch long,
-First attached in cap of plastic jug bubbler, second attached at end of 12" long 3/16 nylon tube
-Did not stop flash back, note: keep water level as high in bubbler to the cap as possible
-Inserted steel bristle from Wire Brush, measuring 0.013", tried again, did not stop flashback
-Inserted second steel bristle from Wire Brush, also 0.013", proving actual size of hole was greater than 0.026"
-This sustained a tiny hydrogen flame from the tip, extremely tiny, but it works!
-Low production means flame is not 'suspended' above nozzle, so it does get warm/hot.
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The Alternators Rotor is designed to consume a Maximum amount of 6 amps at 12 volts only at short periodes, That is, until the battery becomes charged enough to regulate the current and voltage at the rotor down.
Here is what i mean, The Alternator Monitors the Voltage coming from its stator. Once the stator is connected to the Load, "Battery" Which is sometimes Weak will cause a Drop of voltage at the Stator due to charging of the battery. Once the Internal circuit of the atlernator detects this Load drop more amps is directed to the Rotor, in most cases between 12, or 15 volts is maintained at all times. Once the battery starts to take a charge the internal circuit reduces the voltage and amperage to the rotor, At some point in time there will be low voltage and low current flow to the stator. 5 volts at 2 amps to the rotor at 3500 rpm's is capable of putting out 12.5 volts at well over 35 amps.
The smaller alternators Such as a 50, 55 to 60 and 75 amp alternators will only consume 3 amps of current at 12 volts. This means when you apply 12.5 volts to the rotor at 3 amps, the maximum number of amps that is allowed to flow threw the rotor you will only get out 55 amps of current at 12 to 15 volts. So a 55 amp alternator will Never operate with more than 3 amps consumed at its rotor, and higher output alternators will Never consume more than 6, to 7 amps depending on its rotors resistance.
At 12.5 volts on smaller alternators we know 3 amps is what is consumed. At 12.5 volts on the bigger alternators we know 6 to 7 amps can be consumed. The alternator has a built in fan to help cool its rotor coil. When you go above the threashold of 12.5 volts on any alternator you are forcing more current into a rotor. For example; If you apply 30 volts DC to the rotor of a 55 amp alternator normally designed for 3 amps, you can push in anywhere from 6 to 15 amps Causing the rotor to become hot and frying it. Over time your alternator will become a Dead short and the rotor will become so hot it crystalizes and becomes brittle.
Also, Pulsing the rotor helps to keep the temperature of the rotor down to a minimal, During the Pulse off time current flow and voltage to the fuel cell is not effected because of the 3 phase wiring. Also the Hp "Driver motor" and alternator is in Tune with each other allowing a smooth clean run.
If you have applied 30 volts to your rotor of DC, i am most certain you either smoked your rotor, Or you are going to smoke it. You can read the Cold ohms of your rotor to help determin if it is becomming fried, assuming you know what the value should be. You can also measure amp flow to a Cold rotor using a car battery to determine if the rotor has been abused. And abused rotor will always consume more amps and can never be restored, it keeps getting worse and worse.
It is possible that an alternating current to the rotor could be affective, A variac powering a alternator rotor is never a good ideal "unless you keep the rotor under 12 volts." A pwm using a 12 volt battery to the rotor, Even if you are pulsing 5 volts at 2 amps is better recommended than using a variac. "A variacs Signal is too clean, and is not high in freq "700 hertz"
This is just my comment, by no means be affended by it. Test and research what you can and you can determine what should and should not be done.
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Thank you for your advice, I did notice the alternator getting warm and figured it was because I was using higher voltage across the field windings, It took me a few runs to actually think about it, but now i'll be careful not to push it too far. I plan on testing a rewound alternator for higher voltage, as soon as I can get the time to get another one and modify it. Have you tried a high voltage alternator?
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Has anyone here tried a modified Alt, using Permanent magnets in the rotor claws ?
I have read where alternators are being used as MOTORS, by using magnets on the rotor shaft, and the power is in the KW ratings.
One guy uses this without the regulator, and he lets the battery regulate the amperage-voltage ?
Claims he gets enough to run engines on the HHO produced ??
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If you use Permanent Magnets then you can not control the output of the alternator, and thus not control the gas production. It will be a fixed value. Unless of course you did something else as well, like duty the output.
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I have built a Tubular Cluster Array from Stan's drawing, with four 3" tubes.
I have built a power source, consisting of a Variac, Diode Bridge, fuses, a 1/2 horse power motor @ 1725 rpm, pulley a bit greater than 2:1, and a de-regulated Delco Remy Alternator.
Very cool when can we expect you yourtube?
Thanks,
BW
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How much electrical energy does it take to mechanically turn that alternator shaft with your motor @ 1700 rpm ?
At least the power consumed by your cell circuit + the losses , I know that ...
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Burnt Wire, I'll make some videos when I get the cell finished and producing better. I've pretty much run through all the basic experiments I can do right now, I need to make some modifications now.
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How much electrical energy does it take to mechanically turn that alternator shaft with your motor @ 1700 rpm ?
At least the power consumed by your cell circuit + the losses , I know that ...
One HP is equal to 746 watts, You can google that! That equation is not perfect.
Your question was based on Rpm's and not wattage, The Rpm is not as important as friction, the reason the equation is not perfect. If the alternator is being driving at 1700 Rpm's with No load, you only have Friction, If the alternator is at 1700 Rpm's and it is producing 500 watts, then you can usually use math on the system, Transformers have losses.
If the Equation is not perfect, and you know 1 hp is 746 watts, you know the driver motor is 120 volts and consumes 10 amps then 120 * 10, 1200 watts. So based on that 746 "1 HP" Divided into 1200 watts is 1.6 HP. Thats an example thats a bit misleading But you get the ideal..
Tip! Your cars alternator was clocked at Producing 12.5 volts 15 amps. How much HP Was the alternator taking from the car? You was using 187 watts, so a small portion of 1 HP ;)
1 watt = 0.00134102209 HP
so, 187 watts * 0.00134102209 = 0.25077113083 HP
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Sixth Run
Tap water
~12 volts on variac
Testing the nozzle again, sustaining a flame, maintains about 1/2 psi with flame, probably due to back pressure of the bubbler.
nozzle got hot and melted out of the nylon hose... no new results, but it's neat.
Been looking into tiny drill-bits and alumina tubes, should get something ordered soon...
Few other things that need to be done... have a multi-meter, so I'll be measuring a few things to get more familiar with the system.
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Ok Hydro, I've been thinking, and this is what I'm going to try next chance I get, and I'm also posting it here hoping someone else with a similar set up will try it too. (probably mid week I will get a chance)
Procedure:
1. Fill cell right to the top with water.
2. Siphon out 500 mL of water to create 500 mL cavity.
3. Start Cell, record psi after 1 minute. If cell maxes at 5 psi before 1 minute, then try 30 seconds...
4. Release gas pressure into inverted bottle full of water, let it rise up to release pressure, measure expanded volume now that psi is at 0.
This will provide a relationship between psi/min and cc/min. However we would not be considering the fact that hydrogen gas is less dense at atmospheric pressure, therefore in this test we will have some error that may or may not be significant, but it should still give a result that we can compare directly with Stan's result.
Stan says 7000 cc/min, my cell is 7% the size of his, assuming gas production is directly proportional to cell size, I might expect 490 cc/min.
I will perform this test with Rain Water. If I feel like it would be useful, I will repeat it again with Tap Water, Distilled Water, and maybe Well Water, and Salt Water...
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You're going to be very disappointed, It took me 12 tubes to make 600 cc's a min, This was at around 25 volts 30 amps.
Clearly from the information I just provided, You can Pinpoint that I used 6 diodes because the voltage across my 12 tubes was 25 volts. If i would have only used 2 diodes to full wave then the voltage would have been much lower.
Keep in mind, stan full waved at a lower voltage, Do you understand what I am pointing out, Or do you understand you can Full wave 2 different ways? If this seams a but fuzzy to you, I can provide a normal transformer schematic showing 2 ways to do this. That would clear that part up. Also note his voltage was 12, and not 12,000, His amperage was not small. When I hit resonance using 6 tubes, I had about 8 to 10 volts across the 6, about 15 amps, I produced about 275 cc's of gas per min with that setup using only about 120 watts, Which is why at resonance this did not bother the 2k watt motor. Thats The best setup to see on a scope.
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No I don't see what you mean about the diodes, I have all six diodes in my alternator but i am not using the negative from the diodes, i am just going straight from the center of the stator to the cell like in the diagram, so i bypass the negative diodes.
I did the test, here are the results:
Cavity = 1 in * 4 inch * 3.14 = 12.56 Cubic Inch = 205.8 Cubic Centimeters
Salt Water
5 psi in 16 seconds
Rain Water
1.3 psi in 30 seconds
2.6 psi in 60 seconds
4 psi in 90 seconds
5 psi in 113 seconds
Tap Water
1.9 psi in 30 seconds
3.7 psi in 60 seconds
5 psi in 81 seconds
5 psi @ 205.8 cc Cavity = 115 cc of gas produced
Salt Water = 431 cc/min
Rain Water = 61 cc/min
Tap Water = 85 cc/min
All tests performed with 10 volts on the Variac, no other electrical measurements taken.
This is with Four 3" Tubes
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From Internet;
Imagine a cylinder 20 inches high with a radius of 5 inches. To find the radius squared, multiply that number by itself, so 5 times 5 equals 25. Now multiply Pi by the radius squared: 3.14 times 25 inches equals 78.5 inches. Next, multiply 78.5 by the height (20 inches). The product is 1,570. Therefore, the volume of this cylinder equals 1,570 cubic inches.
(1 * 3.75 * 3.14 = 11.775)
Your Radius Squared, 1.875 * 1.875 = 3.515625
3.14 * 3.515625 = 11.0390625
11.0390625 * 1" = a volume of 11.0390625
The Volume of the Above cylinder is 11 Cubic Inches. 11 Cubic inches is 180.2 Ml or CC.
You need 1k cc for a 1 liter cavity, not 180 cc's.
Converting Cubic inches into Milliliters, Example. (Volume Multiplied by 16.387064.)
11 Cubic inches * 16.387064 is 180.257704 cc's of volume.
61 Cubic inches * 16.387064 is 999.610904 cc's or ML of volume.
Assuming your Container is 4" in Od, this would leave you with 3.75 ID, If your wall was 1/8th Thick. Just take your time to find your 1 liter cavity.
I'll post a schematic.
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Crayola Schematic
You guy's are onto stan like Flys on Stank! Proud to see this being deeply looked into.
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Hrm,,, I wish everything back then was as Clear to me as it is clear to me now. Keep testing, id like to play with my tubes and alternator again just for fun but I cant.
I used 6 diodes to get 7 Psi in one minute, stan used 3, Now that brings out some questions also, But, if you remember in his video, He did say he Made a Tweak, i wonder what that tweak was, it was also recorded to have 12 volts across his cell, Hrm, something Does not sound right about this at all. ???
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My Inside Radius is 2 inch
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what i dont get is why would stan say that as voltage continues to rise amps drop when hitting resonance.. he also emphasized on how more winds on the choke would allow for a higher production.. so you say you are only hitting 12.5 volts how much gas will 30 volts at 4.4 amps produce?
when he says more winds more volts does he mean that you have more resistance and the power supply can be of higher potential to supply the load? so there for your intial power generation can be like 20,000 volts and the choke has the resistivity to only allow 12.5 volts at 4.4 amps into the cell? almost like making a minature power grid.. the primary and secondary wires are cosidered the high end like line power, while the chokes are minature step down?
but this observation wouldnt conclude with stans statement of being able to have a cavity in such a resonant that it would turn water into gases faster then water could enter the tube. stated in one of his videos.
@ warp.
i like your perspective brought forward about how a pressurized gas reacts to gating..
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Here are some pictures of my cell taken with the camera on my laptop.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo61.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo62.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo63.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo64.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo65.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo66.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo67.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Photo68.jpg)
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Alumina Quenching Circuits - 0.016"
1 hole
2 holes
4 holes
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture13-1.png)
The one I'm holding is a 4 hole, but it's too hard to get it to focus, the holes are so tiny!
I got these a while ago, but have been too busy to build the nozzles and test them, and then equip the cell at both outputs. Within 2 weeks I will do this.
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We have to give you a new name, like Donaldwfc Meyer?
Great stuff, man. ;)
Steve
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Yep, great..
If i remember correct, the "quencing circuit" made to prevent backfire?..
Be careful with that backfire....
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heres a close up of Stan tube
Don
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Thank Don!
So this is the flow needed for running the dune buggy, 30 quenching holes. Great to have this picture :) Have you any clues to where he might have ordered these from to get them made?
Thanks Steve haha
WaytoGo, yes I've had one backfire into my bubbler that **surprised** me, then i filled the bubbler up with water as close to the top as i could, now when it backfires the plastic cap wont even blow off. This was when testing supposedly 0.023" welding nozzles, but they were not actually 0.023" ... they were at least greater than 0.026", and didn't stop the flashback...
rigorous testing will be performed with the alumina tubes for sure!
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I have no idea where Stan got this stuff.Someone said that it looked like a hose he seen for navy very deep sea welding work.Maybe start looking there.
Don
The tubing were looking for is capillary tubing.
Here's a link to one such place that makes it scroll to the bottom of the page
http://www.paradigmoptics.com/structures/fiberstructures.html
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is that twin cam cylinder on your bench
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Awesome Don, I will have to contact those guys... sometime in the future.
Dudley, That engine is from my Dads Harley Davidson Road King, I don't know much more about it, he is rebuilding it.
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Maybe Stan got the quenching circuit idea, when he was eating pasta wagon wheels at the Taco Bell... ;D
...You may do a google search ( picture search is somtimes better ) on ceramic membrane or alumina membrane...
And you can also search for a company : LASER-TECH-INC (was impossible to post that link)