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Projects by members => Projects by members => Haithar => Topic started by: haithar on August 09, 2009, 22:19:57 pm
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Hello there, i'm currently trying to replicate the simple patent i attached as a pdf file to determine if the voltage-only science is valid. As many people have concluded the key is having nearly no amps and a great amplitude of voltage at a higher frequency (usually up to some khz).
Stan Meyers patent which we all know has one difficulty: getting high voltage and inhibiting amps over a greater amount of time. He is using a variable power supply or a car battery, steps the voltage up by the factor 3 and then seeks resonant condition in a lc-series-circuit. Without resonance the voltage won't be high enough and the amps would be too high. But the capacitance which is determined by the water itself and changes when you use other water or if it heats up over time or if there is gas in it makes it hard to tune the circuit so that he is always oscilating at its resonant frequency.
I found an interesting text in the Chapter 10 pdf about this: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0414/excerpt.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0414/excerpt)
Anyway, so the problem is current inhibiting, the tube cost is also high because grade 316L stainless steel is used, well, some people tried insulating their tubes but would it not be easier to use a concept in which the capacitor plates are not in contact with water? the problem of amp inhibiting is no more, because the electrodes are insulated via 2mm plexiglass on both sides! also you don't need a resonating circuit because you can easily use a hv transformer to get high voltage without current.
here the measurements by which i build the thing:
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0948/measurements.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0948/measurements)
the electronics are also very simple, some nand-gates, some and-gates, a constant 555 circuit and i use my mikrocontroller pwm for the other pwm. i also bought high voltage cable, although i now think it isn't necessary because of the extremely low amps. i plan to use two flyback-transformers from old televisions.
and last but not least the pdf itself, posted here on the forums as well:
WO9846349A1.pdf (709 KB) (http://h.imagehost.org/download/0532/WO9846349A1) or as a text-scan: WFCNewProcess.pdf (63 KB) (http://a.imagehost.org/download/0037/WFCNewProcess)
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Hello there, i'm currently trying to replicate the simple patent i attached as a pdf file to determine if the voltage-only science is valid. As many people have concluded the key is having nearly no amps and a great amplitude of voltage at a higher frequency (usually up to some khz).
Stan Meyers patent which we all know has one difficulty: getting high voltage and inhibiting amps over a greater amount of time. He is using a variable power supply or a car battery, steps the voltage up by the factor 3 and then seeks resonant condition in a lc-series-circuit. Without resonance the voltage won't be high enough and the amps would be too high. But the capacitance which is determined by the water itself and changes when you use other water or if it heats up over time or if there is gas in it makes it hard to tune the circuit so that he is always oscilating at its resonant frequency.
I found an interesting text in the Chapter 10 pdf about this: http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0414/excerpt.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0414/excerpt)
Anyway, so the problem is current inhibiting, the tube cost is also high because grade 316L stainless steel is used, well, some people tried insulating their tubes but would it not be easier to use a concept in which the capacitor plates are not in contact with water? the problem of amp inhibiting is no more, because the electrodes are insulated via 2mm plexiglass on both sides! also you don't need a resonating circuit because you can easily use a hv transformer to get high voltage without current.
here the measurements by which i build the thing:
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0948/measurements.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0948/measurements)
the electronics are also very simple, some nand-gates, some and-gates, a constant 555 circuit and i use my mikrocontroller pwm for the other pwm. i also bought high voltage cable, although i now think it isn't necessary because of the extremely low amps. i plan to use two flyback-transformers from old televisions.
and last but not least the pdf itself, posted here on the forums as well:
WO9846349A1.pdf (709 KB) (http://h.imagehost.org/download/0532/WO9846349A1) or as a text-scan: WFCNewProcess.pdf (63 KB) (http://a.imagehost.org/download/0037/WFCNewProcess)
Well, if you have questions for Tad, he is a member here....
And keep us up to date with it. If you manage to get that working, you would be the first with a working replica.
Best regards
Steve
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Well, if you have questions for Tad, he is a member here....
And keep us up to date with it. If you manage to get that working, you would be the first with a working replica.
Best regards
Steve
i think this one is especially interesting because the patent refers to the Tay-Hee Han-, to the Meyer and another patent, and it's also an international patent. I guess if they have an international patent he must have had a working device, at least patents here in germany require that.
i have found a thread on the wfc forum, but no one seemed to care about this one really. do you know anyone who tried to replicate this?
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Well, if you have questions for Tad, he is a member here....
And keep us up to date with it. If you manage to get that working, you would be the first with a working replica.
Best regards
Steve
i think this one is especially interesting because the patent refers to the Tay-Hee Han-, to the Meyer and another patent, and it's also an international patent. I guess if they have an international patent he must have had a working device, at least patents here in germany require that.
i have found a thread on the wfc forum, but no one seemed to care about this one really. do you know anyone who tried to replicate this?
Hallo nachbar,
Well, i did some tests on that, some time ago.
I went up to 8kV and i didnt see 1 bubble.
The test was done with tapwater.
I stopped there.
But dont let that stop you.
Steve
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who says high voltage is necessary ? Most transformers are not quick enough DC pulsing , it becomes expensive for exotic transformers , not really an isue tho if you are serious .
Im thinking medium voltage 24 to 600 with proper impedance matching . Now that is something new and workable .
And when the impedance changes , you tune your setup or your frequency . PLL controlled . This is where I think most people fail also , these 2 key systems is where the complexity lies . That sputtering Kinesisfilms was probably right .
Low voltage = easy to find caps .
Stephen Meyers said is was about the phasing of current and voltage is important , not just high voltage .
The VIC cell is dificult to get phasing with , its not reactive at all , its just crappy water , that is the big mystery to me .
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yeah i agree with you dankie, that's the complexity of the (rather simple) meyer-circuit.
anyway i'm concentrating on this now, the frequency range is rather low (200Hz to 400Hz), which should give the capacitor a high impedance and allow the flyback transformer to step up the voltage correctly. (i guess they can be used for higher frequencies too, because they are driven by 15,600Hz (don't know exactly but it was in that range) voltage in a tv anyway.
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Hi
For the record, the Eccles patent is only a patent application and it was abandoned prior to review. No patent was ever issued. That may nor may not be relevant.
A TV flyback will not work well at 400hz. The duty cycle will have to be extremely low to prevent core saturation and over current. This means the dead time will be huge compared to the on time. TV flybacks typically run at 15Khz with an applied pulse width of a few microseconds.
Linear Tech makes some interesting IC, several of which are Capacitor Charger Controllers. These are basically PWM flyback controllers that can be configured to give an HV output. The pwm is automagically generated based upon feedback from a current sense resistor. So there is current limiting. The output voltage is determined by the winding ratio.
Attached is a schematic and a zip file that includes a Spice simuation of that schematic. The values I used give an output of about 2.7 KV. I used a small capacitor to speed up the simulation.
A TV flyback could possibly work with this IC as long as the primary inductance is around 10 uh. But I imagine that the current will have to be reduced from the 8 amps peak I have set here. Current is set with R5. The wire size used on the primary should give a good clue as the the primary current the transformer can handle. Alternatively, a custom transformer could be wound. I would try a gapped E-Core that has a saturation current above 10 amps.
I am putting this here mainly to show that there are much better IC's for doing PWM than the outdated and unstable 555 timer.
To run the simulation and experiment with component values you will need to download LTSpice from Linear Tech. It is free and quite good.
http://www.linear.com (http://www.linear.com/)
LT3750 Datasheet: http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/3750fa.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/3750fa.pdf)
Goey
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Hi
For the record, the Eccles patent is only a patent application and it was abandoned prior to review. No patent was ever issued. That may nor may not be relevant.
A TV flyback will not work well at 400hz. The duty cycle will have to be extremely low to prevent core saturation and over current. This means the dead time will be huge compared to the on time. TV flybacks typically run at 15Khz with an applied pulse width of a few microseconds.
Linear Tech makes some interesting IC, several of which are Capacitor Charger Controllers. These are basically PWM flyback controllers that can be configured to give an HV output. The pwm is automagically generated based upon feedback from a current sense resistor. So there is current limiting. The output voltage is determined by the winding ratio.
Attached is a schematic and a zip file that includes a Spice simuation of that schematic. The values I used give an output of about 2.7 KV. I used a small capacitor to speed up the simulation.
A TV flyback could possibly work with this IC as long as the primary inductance is around 10 uh. But I imagine that the current will have to be reduced from the 8 amps peak I have set here. Current is set with R5. The wire size used on the primary should give a good clue as the the primary current the transformer can handle. Alternatively, a custom transformer could be wound. I would try a gapped E-Core that has a saturation current above 10 amps.
I am putting this here mainly to show that there are much better IC's for doing PWM than the outdated and unstable 555 timer.
To run the simulation and experiment with component values you will need to download LTSpice from Linear Tech. It is free and quite good.
http://www.linear.com (http://www.linear.com/)
LT3750 Datasheet: http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/3750fa.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/3750fa.pdf)
Goey
I disagreee ,
the lmc555 is very stable and good for any voltage lvl , it has a very decent 15 ns rise time .
It is like 3 time smore expensive than a regular 555 but worth it .
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Disagree all you want Dankie. You are wrong.
Look at several decent SMPS's. How many 555 timers do you see providing the PWM ? I'll tell you how many . NONE !
You do not understand the meaning of "stable" when it comes to advanced analog electronics. When the frequency lf a 555 is changed the duty cycle changes ..... and vice versa. That is very essence of "unstable". That includes the LMC555. Fast does not mean stable.
Anyone can make an oscillator from a Schmitt inverter and a couple of external parts that is more "stable" than any 555 timer.
It may make little difference in simple hobby circuits like you are used to. But stability makes a huge difference in SMPS design.
So let's see your "stable" flyback controller circuit that uses a 555 timer. I want to see how you implement current limiting, how you detect discontinuous mode, and how you adjust pulse width without affecting frequency.
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For the record, the Eccles patent is only a patent application and it was abandoned prior to review. No patent was ever issued. That may nor may not be relevant.
Thanks Goeytex, that information is indeed important to me, does this mean the patent was never reviewed by a patent office? If it was and not issued the case is clear, but if they just denied the review because of the impossibility of the thing i'd try it.
thanks for the information on the flyback drivers. i'll take that into account, i just used a 555 because i had one here, i'll give your circuit a try. I also have LTSpice.
A TV flyback will not work well at 400hz. The duty cycle will have to be extremely low to prevent core saturation and over current. This means the dead time will be huge compared to the on time. TV flybacks typically run at 15Khz with an applied pulse width of a few microseconds.
Yeah i haven't thought about that. The duty cycle will be around 40% of 400Hz, i'll have to check the patent application again to see if the frequency is important (i guess not).
A TV flyback could possibly work with this IC as long as the primary inductance is around 10 uh. But I imagine that the current will have to be reduced from the 8 amps peak I have set here. Current is set with R5. The wire size used on the primary should give a good clue as the the primary current the transformer can handle. Alternatively, a custom transformer could be wound. I would try a gapped E-Core that has a saturation current above 10 amps.
I'd rather avoid making a custom transformer too test a patent which has a good chance of not working.
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Hi Haither
According to WIPO the patent was abandoned by Eccles, Davies et al, when they failed to pay the required fees prior to review. Therefore it was never reviewed. It was not denied upon principle of operation.
For a simple test a 555 may be adequate, but implementing any kind of current control, feedback etc will be more than challenging. I would set the 555 frequency at 15 Khz or so and the pulse width at 1 us. Then gradually increase the pulse width while looking at a scope reading of primary current. The primary current signal should look similar to what you see in the Spice simulation. Operation should be in discontinuous mode, meaning the current should rise to Ipeak and then fall to zero, with some dead time in between current pulses. A CMOS 555 cannot adequately drive a Power Mosfet so some kind of driver circuit will be needed. A non CMOS 555 can source and sink about 200 ma, and while not ideal, should be able to directly drive a FET.
If you go to National Semiconductors web site and get the datasheet for the LMC555, there is one example circuit in figure 8 that might work ok. A voltage level input to pin 5 controls the pulse width. This circuit will require an external oscillator or another 555 to provide the pulse train to Pin 2. I may simulate it in Spice and see how it does.
Goey
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Well, if you have questions for Tad, he is a member here....
wait, i have skipped this.
tad got meyers fully replicated, is a member of this forum? and regardless no one else has figured it out?
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Well, if you have questions for Tad, he is a member here....
wait, i have skipped this.
tad got meyers fully replicated, is a member of this forum? and regardless no one else has figured it out?
Hi Haithar,
We have more famous members here, then you know... ;)
Tad is known here as " Unclefester "
We asked him a lot of questions on his replication:
Go have a look: http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=721
Regards
Steve
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Well Tad should have investigated this computer control thing .
The difficulty of it is only superficial , there isonly a few complicated IC's there , the pll concept is pretty rough .
Most noobie electronics students at my school will have a good portion of the semester dedicated to this , if bored unmotivated students can get it so can everybody here .
I dont even study small electronics , this is all new to me , I study routines and logic gates . This is a routine , a complicated routine but still a routine .
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weren't you once talking about studying agriculture or something like that? anyway there are pll ic's, i have found a nice website on this topic, which i included a download of, because it is not online anymore. (see attachment) the state-of-art way would of course be a microcontroller.
edit: i found a link on archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20080214161414/http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/pll/pll.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20080214161414/http://www.uoguelph.ca/%7Eantoon/gadgets/pll/pll.html)
thanks stevie i'll read through the topic you mentioned where unclefester posted in regularly.
also i finished building the "cell" today, i begin to wonder if the inventors ever built this thing, 5mm is a large gap for an electrical field but a small gap to see if there's any production going on. my high voltage wire arrived too. will post some photos soon.
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weren't you once talking about studying agriculture or something like that? anyway there are pll ic's, i have found a nice website on this topic, which i included a download of, because it is not online anymore. (see attachment) the state-of-art way would of course be a microcontroller.
edit: i found a link on archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20080214161414/http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/pll/pll.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20080214161414/http://www.uoguelph.ca/%7Eantoon/gadgets/pll/pll.html)
thanks stevie i'll read through the topic you mentioned where unclefester posted in regularly.
also i finished building the "cell" today, i begin to wonder if the inventors ever built this thing, 5mm is a large gap for an electrical field but a small gap to see if there's any production going on. my high voltage wire arrived too. will post some photos soon.
Ya I was studying in construction plan designing
But I dropped that , too boring .
Im better in electronics , and I think it suits my passion better lol .
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weren't you once talking about studying agriculture or something like that? anyway there are pll ic's, i have found a nice website on this topic, which i included a download of, because it is not online anymore. (see attachment) the state-of-art way would of course be a microcontroller.
edit: i found a link on archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/20080214161414/http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/pll/pll.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20080214161414/http://www.uoguelph.ca/%7Eantoon/gadgets/pll/pll.html)
thanks stevie i'll read through the topic you mentioned where unclefester posted in regularly.
also i finished building the "cell" today, i begin to wonder if the inventors ever built this thing, 5mm is a large gap for an electrical field but a small gap to see if there's any production going on. my high voltage wire arrived too. will post some photos soon.
Ya I was studying in construction plan designing
But I dropped that , too boring .
Im better in electronics , and I think it suits my passion better lol .
Ok Dankie.
Thats the way to go. Just followe your hart and passion. Then only, you can be succesfull.
br
steve
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Well my cell is assembled and when filled with water it has a capacitance of ~500pF (0,5nF), depending on which electrodes i use (from 480 with the largest spacing to 540 with the smallest). With a little light it's possible to look through the side-walls and see exactly what's going on. Will be awesome if the whole thing works.
I put water in for half an hour, seems to be water-proof except for one side, where slowly tiny amounts of water pour out of the container into the plastic sheet - electrode gap. It's not much, but water at a high voltage electrode doesn't seem like the best thing to me. Unfortunately it's all sealed with plastic glue, cannot change it without destroying.
Electronics will be assembled when the parts arrive here ..
For a simple test a 555 may be adequate, but implementing any kind of current control, feedback etc will be more than challenging. I would set the 555 frequency at 15 Khz or so and the pulse width at 1 us. Then gradually increase the pulse width while looking at a scope reading of primary current. The primary current signal should look similar to what you see in the Spice simulation. Operation should be in discontinuous mode, meaning the current should rise to Ipeak and then fall to zero, with some dead time in between current pulses. A CMOS 555 cannot adequately drive a Power Mosfet so some kind of driver circuit will be needed. A non CMOS 555 can source and sink about 200 ma, and while not ideal, should be able to directly drive a FET.
Skipped this one too ;)
I'm mainly using my mikrocontroller pwm to give the pulsed dc. Driver circuits are included in the patent, also descriptions of duty cycle and frequency range.
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skipped a party for this yesterday ;)
I built a circuit that matches the description in the patent, it's two pwm's with gating where the gating time is set by a 555 and the actual frequency is adjustable by my pwm box which i made. Also you can see they are turned on and of in a flip-flop style, with a little pause between the pulses. photos done with mobile phone, quality sucks.
one channel is the upper pulses, the second the lower:
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0403/photo001.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0403/photo001)
pwm box powered by an atmega8 mikrocontroller:
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0098/photo003.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0098/photo003)
the actual circuit on a breadboard:
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0068/photo004.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0068/photo004)
and last but not least the cell, i know it looks like a piece of shit, i'm not exactly a skilled craftsman, there's also already some aluminum-oxide because of the few water drops. :(
(http://a.imagehost.org/t/0211/photo005.jpg) (http://a.imagehost.org/view/0211/photo005)
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thats a nice clean layout there .
Nice box too.
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finished the driver circuit, identified the pins of my two flyback transformers. just have to cut and connect the high voltage cable and hope that everything works ;)
the aluminum oxide layer on my aluminum foil got pretty large. i hope it is conducting now.. and of course after some time water will get through it, probably short out the whole thing.. i'll see how this can be solved.
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my plan to disassemble the thing went horribly wrong. don't use pattex plastic extreme glue if you want to get something loose again ;D
anyway, have to order the parts again. now i know why research costs are so high if half of the stuff gets destroyed in the process..
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my plan to disassemble the thing went horribly wrong. don't use pattex plastic extreme glue if you want to get something loose again ;D
anyway, have to order the parts again. now i know why research costs are so high if half of the stuff gets destroyed in the process..
Thats that dark site of the force...i mean, hobby..
Steve
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alright, i got my new parts,assembled it. fixed it around 20 times so that it wont leak and then finished the circuit.
i got high voltage at ~15W input. 15Volts / 1 Amp. Every minute or so the capacitor would discharge/spark through the air, i have to isolate the connector panels better. but anyway, i should have had over 10.000Volts, because the gap it sparked over was around 1cm. No gas...
In the future I'll try to regulate the voltage to the 18V needed for Full HV with the flybacks, well i'll see. i also cannot know if both sides charge right, because i do not own a hv probe. i'll play around with voltage and frequency tomorrow.
so far disappointing
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So sorry for your loss Haithar .
On a happier note , I FINALLY am dreaming it , a Meyers device . In my dream I was frustrated and happy , there was a "special result" thing that I felt excited about . It was a wonderful dream filled with positive emotion over something . I usually never feel good when I dream about this , always the feeling of total loss and confusion .
Usually , these dreams usually only go bad and always the feeling of being totally lost and frustrated , but not this one . Wish I could remember exactly what I saw , there was definitly some high-tech gadgets in my room with my scope and stuff and experimenting in my dream , good successful feeling of excitement is all I really remember .
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Place RTV silicone around the edges of each plate , left and right outside. Take saran wrap and wrap the entire system several times - be sure the first wrap seals with the silicone.
You need to seal off the sharp edges on the cut foil, secondly provide a barrier to prevent the air breakdown.
Give it 24 hours to dry.
That should get you past the 10kv mark.
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thanks warj. i'm also going to make the electrodes more tiny, so that a spark would have to go around the plexiglass plates to reach the other electrode.
i tried the 42kHz range, at this frequency it's more like a spark gap than a capacitor ;) anyway.. i hold you up to date
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alright, i got my new parts,assembled it. fixed it around 20 times so that it wont leak and then finished the circuit.
i got high voltage at ~15W input. 15Volts / 1 Amp. Every minute or so the capacitor would discharge/spark through the air, i have to isolate the connector panels better. but anyway, i should have had over 10.000Volts, because the gap it sparked over was around 1cm. No gas...
In the future I'll try to regulate the voltage to the 18V needed for Full HV with the flybacks, well i'll see. i also cannot know if both sides charge right, because i do not own a hv probe. i'll play around with voltage and frequency tomorrow.
so far disappointing
" We are no loosers, we just happen to figure millions things out that doesnt work..... ;) "
Keep up the good work, Haithar.
Steve
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alright i made the electrodes smaller today and used isolating tapes on the edges. apparently now it sparked through 4mm plexiglass + 1mm pvc + 4mm water/air. power is around 8watts for both flybacks.
i'm wondering if the spark discharge is the thing that prevents the water from disassociating or if it's the theory itself. i'll probably do a third try and isolate even better, but i don't have high hopes and free time is running out..
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if anyone cares how this thing looked like. that were already the small aluminum foil electrodes. it wouldnt spark over through the cell anymore but it to the nearby electrodes although they were turned on alternately with a delay like described in the patent.
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so after abandoning this thing and acing my electrical engineering test ( 8)) i might try out a new idea which is regarding conventional electrolysis with alternating current.