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Electrolysis => Electrolysis => Other => Topic started by: handyandy on July 20, 2009, 21:49:45 pm
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I built a wfc, bought a dc gated pulse generator ala dave lawton, added distilled water and got pretty much nothing. I next bought a dimmer switch (poor boy's variac) hooked to a fwbr with floating ground and got bubbles and heat. Burned out 2 dimmer switches and for giggles hooked up 12 volts dc straight to the wfc wired parallel and got not as much bubbles but less heat. Water bath is about 2 degrees F above ambient.
Construction:
7 - 5/16 inch 316L allthread rod cut to length
7 - 1/2 inch od 0.035 wall T304 pipe 100 mm approx 4 inches in length
42 - zip ties superglued 120 degrees as spacers gap approx 1.5 mm
hardware ss nuts, washers and hose clamps for electrical connections
hoseclamps attached approx 0.25 mm from bottom
silver plated copper wire seems to hold up in the water bath wired as per figure 2 in the patent
With tap water it seems no problem producing bubbles and steam at 12 vdc unrectified. Puzzled and surprised...
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put the dimmer on the negative and see what happens
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tried both ways and same results. burnt out 2 dimmer switches. hooked up straight 12vdc and got gas also. am increasing number of tubes by 6 and going to modify an inverter to see how it handles half rectified ac as in the patent. with straight dc temp rose 2-5 degrees F. with dimmer switch temp rose more depending on voltage 100F+
Regards and thanks,
Andy
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I attached a short video dissociation of distilled water 12 volts dc ambient temperature rise 2-5 degrees F. Am adding more "wave guides" and have an inverter to hack and test with half rectification.
Regards,
Andy
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I attached a short video dissociation of distilled water 12 volts dc ambient temperature rise 2-5 degrees F. Am adding more "wave guides" and have an inverter to hack and test with half rectification.
Regards,
Andy
Nice video Andy. Production seems very little.
How much mA does the circuit pull here?
Steve
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HI Steve,
No circuit just a 12 volt automotive battery connected and tubes/rod wired parallel w/distilled water from a supermarket. Tubes are 100 mm/4 inches long and connected at 25 mm mark. Filtered tap water produces more with addition of steam and more heat. The gated pulse generator I purchased did nothing so I assume doa and am stuck with it.
Wire was 16 gauge silver plated copper wire I had gotten for a bb toroid. It holds up well in the water bath. Just starting out...
Andy
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I've added 6 more "wave guides". Had trouble with the last tube's spacers. The somewhat transparent tube I had originally is now too small so I'm going to have to go with white pvc coupling and pipe unless I can acquire some clear pvc 4" pipe without having to buy an entire length. So the total now is 13. Any assistance in modifying an inverter to half rectify 2 sets of pipes @ 12-13volts appreciated. I've got a husky 300 watt inverter to hack.
Andy
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Update:
As tap water is cheaper than store bought distilled water I've been exploring that option among other things.
I tried wiring tubes in series and only one tube is working. Series wiring for 6 volts rather than parallel wiring for 12 volts. Switched connections and same pipe. Strange.
With tap water I was getting a lot of production but also a lot of heat as well as gunk. I at first thought it was coming from my pipes (T-304) but on talking it out with someone I filtered the water and on reprocessing in electrolyser gunk is minimal. So this is what comes out of the faucet. Fascinating. So the water fuel cell does work with impurities in tap water as Stan says. And I got the biggest bang using tap water as opposed to distilled water.
I've now tried 6 or 7 tubes and 12 or 13 tubes. I'd like to still simulate the effect of pulse width 1/2 or 1/3 as according to the topic patent. Bakatronics has some interesting stuff and made in the USA. Fun stuff and better than using NaOH and low voltage/high amps in my book.
Regards,
Andy
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The gated pulse generator I purchased did nothing so I assume doa and am stuck with it.
Bummer.
If you live in the States, Ill be glad to repair it for you. No Charge, Just take care of the shipping.
Send me a PM
Goey
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Update:
As tap water is cheaper than store bought distilled water I've been exploring that option among other things.
I tried wiring tubes in series and only one tube is working. Series wiring for 6 volts rather than parallel wiring for 12 volts. Switched connections and same pipe. Strange.
With tap water I was getting a lot of production but also a lot of heat as well as gunk. I at first thought it was coming from my pipes (T-304) but on talking it out with someone I filtered the water and on reprocessing in electrolyser gunk is minimal. So this is what comes out of the faucet. Fascinating. So the water fuel cell does work with impurities in tap water as Stan says. And I got the biggest bang using tap water as opposed to distilled water.
I've now tried 6 or 7 tubes and 12 or 13 tubes. I'd like to still simulate the effect of pulse width 1/2 or 1/3 as according to the topic patent. Bakatronics has some interesting stuff and made in the USA. Fun stuff and better than using NaOH and low voltage/high amps in my book.
Regards,
Andy
Hi Andy,
Nice cell. Nice to read that you try many options in wiring the thing.
Can you try 1 setup for me? This setup gave me over 100% Faraday...
Use 2 tubesets. Wire them in series. Like + goes to outertube 1. Then from innertube 1 you hook up to outertube 2.
So i had 5 sets of 2 tubesets in parallel.
Hooked that up to a 5V powersupply = ca. 2.5V per tube
Gas production over 100% faraday.
If you need a calculation on that, just pm me the gasoutput per time unit, amps and volts.
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Yes, I've wired in series and in parallel. In series as you said, wired inner rod of set one, outer pipe of set one to outer pipe of set two, inner rod of set two to inner rod of set three, etc. with six sets at 12-14 vdc would give 2-2.3 vdc per tube set. Yet, only one tube set is producing. Likewise any parallel/series wiring results in just one tube set producing weird. Either there's a shorted tube set or loose connection somewhere not sure will check. Parallel definitely all tube sets producing. In your example were you using tap water? Thanks,
Andy
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Hi Steve,
Yes, I've wired in series and in parallel. In series as you said, wired inner rod of set one, outer pipe of set one to outer pipe of set two, inner rod of set two to inner rod of set three, etc. with six sets at 12-14 vdc would give 2-2.3 vdc per tube set. Yet, only one tube set is producing. Likewise any parallel/series wiring results in just one tube set producing weird. Either there's a shorted tube set or loose connection somewhere not sure will check. Parallel definitely all tube sets producing. In your example were you using tap water? Thanks,
Andy
I see what you did. However, when you just have 2 sets in serie, then you see a bit different reaction.
So, 2 tubesets are the max to put in serie.
In my example, i used tapwater with Naoh.
To be honest, the whole setup was just me playing with Naoh for the first time in my life.
The rest of the 2 tubes in serie and some of those in parallel, was know by me.
Because those tubes of me had a gapspace of 2mm, the Naoh did very well in there.
I had like 110% over Faraday.
regards
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for that.
I ordered some parts will get them next week I guess and will have more to share then regarding claims of the patent. Btw, the pipe I cut up with a tubing cutter. There was a small burr that I thought might be shorting out so I reamed them to make sure. Gap is now definitely 1.5 mm as calculated. Doing that the zip tie spacers were then too small so had to get larger ones. The allthread rod may be contributing to a vortex effect I read here somewhere. Moving along...
Andy
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I received a motor controller with variable frequency & pulse width and a 200 watt inverter circuit yesterday. To check claim of the patent that 50% duty cycle increased efficiency I hooked up the motor controller and did several runs with 1/3 and 1/2 duty cycles and frequencies of 100 hz, 400 hz, approx 1 khz and 2 khz with 6 "wave guide" configuration.
Previously with tubes wired in parallel and tap water there was good production as compared to distilled water but also much more heat as would be expected with classic electrolysis of water/electrolyte mix.
With the motor controller, production is regulated via pulse width i.e. as duty cycle increases from 0% to 100% production approaches straight dc. At 1/2 and 1/3 duty cycle heat build up over time is reduced but still increases with time.
Allthread and tubing is developing a bronze color similar to what I observed with series plates.
As far as efficiency goes I'm not seeing it however the pulsing dc does seem to be producing a more energetic gas (as well as steam).
Motor controller is MX067 30 amps max duty cycle 0-100% 100 hz fixed or 400hz-2khz variable via jumper. Circuit and wires remain cool. Heat buildup is in the wfc. Heat never stabilizes but increases to boiling point..
The inverter is MX059 outputs 12 volts and switches between 2 grounds. I've been wanting to try this for a while feed 12 volts to center rods and switch ground circuit between 2 separate sets of tubes.
I'm not sure but removing the 3 spacers from the tops of the tubes may contribute to a cooling effect. All for now...
Andy
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To continue...
With tap water heat is controlled with a pulse width of between 1/4 and 1/3. Frequency doesn't seem to matter.
I went back to distilled water and production seems to be stimulated with pulsed dc but also some heat production but that might be due to contamination of previous tap water runs. Maximum temperature was around 100F. Ambient was around 80F. Frequency and pulse width 2khz@100%.
The inverter run is on hold for now. Inverter burst into flames due to one of the tubes shorting against allthread. I guess I need some volumetric readings to add.
Andy
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To continue...
With tap water heat is controlled with a pulse width of between 1/4 and 1/3. Frequency doesn't seem to matter.
I went back to distilled water and production seems to be stimulated with pulsed dc but also some heat production but that might be due to contamination of previous tap water runs. Maximum temperature was around 100F. Ambient was around 80F. Frequency and pulse width 2khz@100%.
The inverter run is on hold for now. Inverter burst into flames due to one of the tubes shorting against allthread. I guess I need some volumetric readings to add.
Andy
Ok, Andy. Thats nice info.
Shame yr inverter went down the drain....Maybe a fuse could be helpfull next test.
Steve
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Hi Steve,
At this point I agree some circuit protection would be advisable on positive and negative supply. My problems started with adding another set of 6 "wave guides" for a total of 12. I think I've seen as much as I can with following some aspects of this patent. I haven't seen a non-electrolysis process with tap or distilled water but I can see a utility of keeping down heat production with a pulse width of 50% or more which is a basis of Meyer's solid state and rotary controllers.
Problems begin to appear when one is in a rush and gets sloppy. Spacing of tubes is absolutely critical and restriction from top with spacers have an effect on production as well as heat buildup. Not so much worried about heat except for runaway effect as I see in classic electrolysers which seem to be solved with "dry" cells but I'm chasing Meyer's method otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Regards,
Andy
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Update I've gone a little beyond this patent now with the introduction of a diode and bifilar wrapped choke connected as Stan Meyer suggested in his later patents. With currents flowing anti-parallel in the choke, it's working as either a step-down transformer or zero vector scalar wave generator depending on who's theory you go by. Regardless, heat production is dramatically reduced with wave guides wired in parallel in conjunction with a cheap frequency and pulse width modulated motor controller circuit from bakatronics. Wire was wrapped bifilar around a piece of T-304 stainless steel pipe since it was left over and seemed like something to try as it's got some iron and it's air cored. Wire is 20 gauge silver plated copper PTFE covered and about 50 turns or 9 mm length of 1/2" OD pipe. The choke heats up a little but motor controller and other wires and connections are cool. Still running off a car battery.
Regards,
Andy
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if you are playing around with stans bifilar resonant charging chokes, then take note that they are wrapped in flat pancake spiral sections, you can tell this design comes from the alternator as he moved it over to solid state, where the windings in an alternator are done in about 13 loops per phase, the chokes are also done in numerous coil sections connected in series, as you see in the vic coil where there are 14 coil sections.
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Hi Donald,
That might be so. I'm just going thru things trying to see what Stan saw. Explain if you can how a bifilar coil with anti-parallel currents is similar to an alternator.
As an aside looking at Jeff Behary's website electrotherapymuseum.com (I think) there were some interesting circuits and something called an impedance coil for controlling the spark of a spark gap and I suppose impedance matching which looked similar to Stan's adjustable tuned charging choke. My bifilar choke is the same as that described by Dave Lawton, Dr, Scott Cramton and early on by Stan Meyer in for example the circuit drawing for the demonstration wfc that's found in independent.pdf. Thanks for the heads up.
Regards,
Andy
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well at first thought it seems odd that an alternator can do the same thing as the vic, but since the vic was built as a solid state version of the alternator (to a specific purpose of a pulse voltage frequency source), there is much to learn between them.
there i just meant to draw extra attention to the fact that they both use numerous coils in series in the secondary/choke coils, and they both also have an interesting coil orientation with respect to the core, if you look at the stator, it is a ring and the coils point away from it, if you look at the vic, the coils are wound from close to the core to far away from the core, like a pancake. I am able to see some interesting characteristics and maybe some resemblance in the design.
here are a few pictures, notice the little circle/loop he draws between the coil sections to indicate the shared inductance, and also the distributed capacitance, if you think about a stator, i assume you would also get a similar effect from all the spaced out coils
i'd also like to point out, in an electrical diagram of the alternator it shows one inductor for each phase, and not 13 inductors in series, likewise, in the vic diagram, it shows one inductor for the secondary and each choke, and not 14 inductors in series, however we know beyond the simple diagram how that is actually built.
also here is my amp inhibitor coil/resonant charging choke coil i will be using when i get to that stage
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Hi Donald,
I never said I was replicating a VIC only that I was curious what the effect of a diode and a bifilar choke would have on my setup. In point of fact I've noticed a dramatic effect on temperature stable at 105 degrees F with a pulse width of 50-100%. As far as the alternator design what I see is early on using a variac to study voltage along with bifilar choke and the alternator 1/3 pulse width on 3 sets of wave guides. The VIC is much later and not many folks that I've read have had much success in replicating a VIC. I'm going thru the process of learning not jumping to graduation. I have not seen resonance so to speak. It is an interesting effect nonetheless.
Regards,
Andy
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You said you were playing around with bifilar chokes, I just wanted to point out that linear chokes, that look like this, or similar are not stans design, and they wont provide the results stan is intending. I only drew the connection to the vic because the chokes are part of the vic as well.
Cheers
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Hi Donald,
I'm going by Stan's design bifilar wound bifilar choke current running anti-parallel and linear. As far as I know Ravi, Lawton and Dr. Scramton use the same bifilar choke in their setups. Dave Lawton tried different chokes as did Ravi shown in his pdf available at panaceauniversity.org. I would tend to agree that a series of bifilar pancake chokes ala Tesla would be very effective. There's a few ways of wrapping bifilar chokes that I've come across and different ways to connect them with different results. I'll stick with what works for me. Just sharing my results. As far as emulating an alternator in solid state as far as I see it you have 3 phases each phase has a pulse width of 1/3; frequency is based on rotation of rotor. Voltage is based on voltage of stator in an EM design or strength of permanent magnets in a PM design. Alternating current -> pulsing direct current via diodes. Just keeping it simple life is complicated enough.
Regards,
Andy
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that's great, just a suggestion that when you are done with the linear choke, you may wish to try it the way stan describes everywhere else. as far as i can tell most researches don't clue into the details regarding the chokes, if they did then i'm sure lawton and ravi would have done it stans way too
Cheers
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Hi Donald,
Stan Meyer if you look at various patents and analyse the evolution of design went from linear to toroid to EI-frame transformer. Early experimenters (and Meyer) tried different things but ultimately the results point in the same direction. I'm more interested if others can collaborate with the results I've seen rather than nitpick over design issues of this or that. A bifilar choke ultimately is constructed in one way but can be connected in circuit 2 ways.
Not sure if it was here or somewhere else where someone reported negative results using allthread/pipe rather than inner pipe/outer pipe combination. I was just going by a suggestion by Meyer in one of his patents. I can see the utility of inner/outer pipe combination giving each wave guide 2 sources for input of water fuel rather than one.
I included photos of my crude setup of diode/bifilar choke.
Regards,
Andy
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This will probably be my last post on this topic as I have explored most of what I thought were the key aspects of this patent. I believe the main innovation this patent claims is that of using tubes in an electrolyser either one inside the other like a joe cell or wouter's tubular electrolyser or as a series of tubular arrays. I was not successful (yet) in wiring a tubular array serially Wired in parallel resulted in over voltage and excess heat production with straight dc. Stan's claim that a 50% duty cycle was more efficient... I don't know about efficient but excess heat was minimized at a 1/4-1/3 duty cycle which resulted in more energetic gas and less steam. I did not find a magical resonant frequency. I used a cheap motor controller circuit with a variable duty cycle of 0-100% and variable frequency of 100 hz - 2 khz. The jury is still out on whether this is a non-electrolysis process for me. There certainly is something here. This fall should be interesting.
Regards,
Andy
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A bifilar choke ultimately is constructed in one way
This is not true.
Good luck.
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Hi Donald,
Maybe ultimately was too strong of a word.
I took two wires (bifilar) and wrapped them unidirectionally on a linear coil form. I connected them anti-parallel to a series of rods and tubes i.e. positive and ground were travelling against each other. My personal preference is to connect the positive to the inner tube or in my case the allthread rod. I connected a diode to the positive before the bifilar coil. I achieved positive results regarding temperature of the cell stabilizing at around 105 degrees F. Not luck but results.
Regards,
Andy
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I meant to report back earlier than this. Max gas production has been around 50 ml./minute for 6 1/2 tubes 4 inches long. I'm looking into eliminating zip tie spacers to increase flow through the tubes. Mintaining that 1.5 mm clearance is difficult though.
I have not been able to replicate my previous finding of temperature stabilizing at 110-120F. Although it takes longer with a coil and diode temperature continues to rise. It takes a long time for the water to cool given water's heat capacity.
Regards,
Andy
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I have continued to work on the design. Latest iteration was an attempt to eliminate zip tie spacers with tube holders. Basically tried to suspend the tube from the top by flanging the top of the tube. Increase of production was miniscule still around 50 ml/min with tap water and 25 ml/min with distilled water. I also tried bifilar coils using ferrite toroids and connecting in parallel and anti-parallel. Windings were 50 turns and 100 turns. As far as production didn't seem to matter either way but the coil buzzes in parallel configuration. Heating of the cell still builds slowly in a few hours temp is around 120F at which point I stop as there's steam obviously being evolved. Next is to grind the threads from the rods so the rods are smooth. As in the patent I will see if circulating the water via a water pump has any beneficial effect. In the patent there's a graph remarking on water temperature so Stan wasn't hiding anything in his research.
Andy
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I finally got around to grinding the threads from a set of allthread 316L SS rods 5/16". I also ground the tip to a blunt point or semi-circle since I've been reading up on Schauberger and actually got the idea from one of Stan's diagrams describing a non-linear wave guide where the outer tube is flared and the inner tube is constricted leading to a negative pressure zone or vacuum (my understanding) which might increase the pumping action of the tube sets water entering from the bottom and exiting out top. The rods were nice and shiny after grinding. I was disappointed that production seemed to be less but the battery voltage was low and after charging production popped back up. Had an accident with the pvc piping so until I repair it no volumetric measurements yet. No circulating water yet either.
The rods had a bronzing after running numerous hours so that's all been ground off so I expect the rods will get bronzed again after a burn in. The inside of the t-304 ss tubes are still the same color but the outside is a little bronzed. Looks like a catalytic layer. Tubes do not appear to be eroding.
When I use the bifilar coil in vibrating mode and hold it to the container it seems that bubbles are knocked off the tubes and more gas is evolved. Just something I tried to see what would happen.
After grinding the gap is larger where previously it was about 1.5 mm now it's almost 3 mm. Zip tie spacers are eliminated from the bottom of tubes but some of the tubes need a spacer up top. The tubes without spacers appear to produce more gas.
All for now...
Andy