Author Topic: My new approach  (Read 62534 times)

Login to see usernames, Login to see usernames and 38 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 625
Re: My new approach
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2022, 18:20:56 pm »
May be reaching far but does it matter if it takes 1T or 3T to saturate a core?

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
Re: My new approach
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2022, 21:12:12 pm »
It tells you how much power you can get for a given core at a given frequency…

Ferrite work around 300mT while silicon steel up to 1.3T

Than there is the gap… the more you increase the gap the more current you get before saturation arrive but also that has a limit

The gap reduce the effective inductance of the coil making it able to get more amps for the same voltage and time… works like reducing the turns but also the coupling especially depending on the coils configuration….

To increase  the coupling a foil of copper can be wound around the whole transformer! Including the legs..

I used this to calculate how many ferrite cores I would need to give 3kw for the cell

This mean 200v 15 amps or so.. so the coil need to survive this current and the ferrite must survive this field so I don’t end up with a sharp rise in current if saturation was reached…

Another thing that need to be considered is the voltage drop at primary and secondary and components… this limit the power also.. if 15 amps cause a voltage drop of 15 volts in the primary and you loose another volts in the switch and diodes now you get 180v not 200 for example… secondary also going have a drop must be accounted for to see exactly how much power come out of the supply in comparison with how much got in… this would be already 10% losses … 300watts dissipated in the form or heat… all this need to be addressed or reduced… thicker primaries, and secondary is the most impacting after diodes…

I’m using two sides of a core so it’s like staking 6CI cores … in shape of a big EE core

Than I’m pulsing both legs with a different circuit and the unipolar pulse wave should come from the coil in the middle leg… receiving one positive from each leg having a collapse at the end of each … doubling the frequency and providing distributed capacitance and inductance to be used…


« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 19:38:58 pm by sebosfato »

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
Measurements and protection
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2022, 23:19:51 pm »
I’m planning to have some means to measure the current in the oscilloscope with a small resistor

Also I think I could add a high watts resistor in series with the tvs to hold the current a little and protect the tvs too…

I’m planing to use 1600 volts igbt having 20 sets of 2 tvs of 400 v in series in parallel with the primary to protect it… I think adding resistors in series with the tvs may help to distribute the current more evenly and also limit the current… so after subtracting the supply there’s at least 400v to be absorbed by the resistors must be a power resistor otherwise would burn by the high current… if considering 20 amps limit it would be possible to use a 20ohm resistor at maximum… 
Ideally two 200ohm resistor in each series of  tvs capable of at least 3 amps peak current if it exists

On top of that I’m going to place a clamp coil to limit the voltage to 1200v

In parallel with the igbt is good to have a snubber too having a small capacitor and a resistor in series with it…

From my recent developing technologies switching valves on and off o found that a circuit board well designed will be much better at dissipating the excess heat from the components and also reduce impedance and reduce interference and bad contacts… so I’m inclined to make or buy a igbt driver for this tests…

Also the Vic may have a case, the circuit must have a case too for having low noise from whatever souce

The heat syncs are going to have forced air cooling but each must be electrically isolated from the case

And I wonder if Meyer may have tried to mix a high current pulse with a a high voltage pulse…

All this energy in each side of the core must be addressed, having a coil in series with the primary subtracting would reduce the voltage and increase the amperage for sake of clarity…

After a lot of consideration I found a better solution is going to use the clamp coil but also a regenerative capacitor and a extra diode per primary…

It goes as follows

The Vic power supply is going to have 4 heat syncs a dc capacitor and a regenerative capacitor per primary
One with two diodes at ground level… with anode on screw
two with a igbt and a diode floating from zero to 1600v cathode on screw
And one with 10 or more diodes at dc level voltage… being 8 of them with cathode to the screw and if desired a full wave (I’m considering half wave)
Two primary coils L1a and L1b
Each primary must have a clamping coil under it, it serves also as regenerative coil 1/4 of L1 turns..
The two diodes that goes to the primary from dc must be high voltage and current to survive
All other diodes must be high current but 1600v is ok
Across the regeneraTive capacitors Cx there’s is going to sit the tvs or vrs to limit its voltage to 1200v

The main secret here is that the regenerative snubber is going to create a 5kv very short wave on the primary that is going into a transmission line like bifilar coil and this follow the pulse… adjusting this capacitor and coil will determine the frequency of that wave

Meyer gave us the repetition rate… he didn’t have this wave length in his papers… somehow I think this wave may be read from the cell measuring it’s voltage longitudinally… or with a loop of wire around the cell… if this wave spear it may show like this

I’m closer than ever to make it work

Wish I could have some employees to help me build this stuff… and test it..  hope some of you get to test it too

When we Discharge a capacitor into a coil and this energy come out on another coil this energy traveled space time

Great info about transmission lines

Basically the higher is the inductance in relation to the capacitance the greater will be the impedance of the line…

If we were to consider water resistance as the impedance to match than current would be in phase with voltage and that don’t seem to be what Stanley meant

He indeed said it could be arranged in a all in one or at least two assembled coils one the Vic and the other the amp inhibitor coil…

I believe he does that separation because of one thing:

Depending on the dc current on this coil the inductance will vary so it’s a way to actually electronically match the impedance! Also a permanent magnet could be used to saturate the core varying the impedance… but this would hurt the Vic operation… so I guess is better to think of things a little separated for a while…

So at the Vic the dc must go thru the bifilar to no get saturation effect… this modulates the cell voltage at twice the frequency because of the two transformers in one action… 

« Last Edit: December 25, 2022, 14:54:29 pm by sebosfato »

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
Measuring water response
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2022, 15:39:25 pm »
In the university there was an exercise to map electric fields using a multimeter and a oil capacitor…

I wonder if we could detect the lag in time response for ac signals on water at a distance..

The experiment should be a one meter water column where place a two electrodes on the sides and pulse it and use the oscilloscope triggering by the pulse source and measuring over the all distance

The idea is to find frequencies where waves arise or at least if create a lag in the signal as function of the distance…

This will tell what’s the hell is the frequency we should look for at the spike

Obs I will have to take some old prototypes apart so I’m posting some pics to keep in history… the prototypes are
Water coil … it has a tube with water forming a coil within those 3 CC cores closing it and pulsed all together… I didn’t tried phases at that time

Other is the spiral vector inverter was under oil on my acrylic cell

Others are flux direction tests I was doing having neodymium magnets saturating the cores in one direction and pulsing in the other to get the flux to swing more. Magnetic diode idea…

I found this incredibly interesting paper please read it is about twisted pair impedance transformer

Read the section about bifilar capacitance
« Last Edit: December 25, 2022, 16:45:30 pm by sebosfato »

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2023, 04:11:07 am »
Stan may have used a kind of configuration using a high amp high voltage scr module to absorb or block the collapsing voltage from the high side while his bipolar transistor or mosfet made the switching

this allow the collapse of the primary to be as high as possible… while protecting the switch

i bought some 1600v 30amps igbts to work with… not sure would be need to get even higher collapse.. . but this may be an option…

i found gtos to sell… on ebay and here in brasil on our kind of ebay but it cost like 500dollars 

this switches may have being used on the EEC for the same reason…

its better than a diode since you can choose if it will or not conduct while its capable of high amps and voltages (and was one of the only high power components available at his time)

the cell may resonate at 5 to 10MHz the pll catch this and divide by 10…

cell may have a high Q for very short pulses… allowing it to really resonate.. perhaps a coil in parallel with the cell could be useful for that tests…

generating a pulse to make it resonate imply that it should be like 1/4 of the period of this frequency to charge only during the correct timing…

question is how to make such 25ns to 50ns pulse inductively ?

first step is to have a switch that turn off this fast…. dont seem the biggest problem

to make a 25ns pulse out of a 2,5mh coil it would need to discharge into a 10kohm resistance (Cell) (line_ etc) or into a capacitance of few pico farads

or maybe how can we apply a very low dc voltage and let it collapse to produce such oscillation?

how to reduce the inductance during charging? having a secondary with a load?

capacitance in faraday is equal to 1 amp times 1 second to give one volt raise… so there is a relation between the dielectric and time and the reason meyer talk about 78,5 water value may have to do with it…

since permittivity is a measure of faraday per meter with a distance there should be a specific frequency that could be taken out of it somehow…

« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 09:41:16 am by sebosfato »

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
power vs small transformer
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2023, 14:57:19 pm »
if you try to light a lamp with a small transformer just rated for it and you open the circuit the lamp will flash and turn off

if you try to light a lamp with a power transformer over rated for it and you open the circuit the lamp will flash and burn

i think this is why the transformer must be somehow bigger than the cell

this diode DPJ50XS1800NA seems a good option for the feedback coil side… i try to get one for each transformer so it can handle 50 amps each 1800v

one of this could also be used after the regenerative capacitor… but since current is smaller there one could fit both transformers

so in the end 3 of this would be required…

i got a 3phase module 100amp 1600v for the bridge rectifier standard that is going to be able to give me 120v or 240v output connecting the center tap as one of the phases and adding a switch…

after this come a 1,5mf capacitor 450v to filter…

and before the transformer i need a high amp fast and above 6kv diode so it can survive the regenerative pulse.. may need to use few in a row to get this… was thinking about using the same DPJ50XS1800NA as it has two in the package so two of each for each transfomer conected in series should work.. however maybe useful to add external capacitance resistance network to balance the reverse voltage among the diodes…

another possibility would be to use many tvss in series and parallel so it would never die even if it would reach the limit sadly would need like 15 series of 10 in parallel to work for each transformer

im considering the lower cost safe possible solution

i found some disk diodes that are more powerfull but cost like 100 $ each


« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 15:32:37 pm by sebosfato »

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
Re: My new approach
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2023, 23:34:40 pm »
I decided to limit the collapse of the primary to 1kv so the clamping coil is going to have 5:1 with the primary coil… this way the primary will collapse with 1000v maximum for 200v source summing 1200v safe for the 1600v igbt

The regenerative capacitor connected to it will be charged to 1000v and so when it discharge on the clamp coil it forms a positive pulse on primary coil of 5kv so in series with the primary there must be a blocking diode of 7kv 30amps fast or ultra fast

I’m considering using 7 series of 14 parallel uf5008 diodes they can take 3 amps so must be safe to work up to 20 amps with this beast … lot of power will be dissipated however…  may go up to 200w  being dissipated in this diodes at full power !!

A high voltage diode may reduce this to half or one third of this…

I contacted a company specialist in diodes to see if they have a better option

It’s important to be a ultrafast or at least fast diode there so it allow the pulse to go to the secondary side and not dissipated on diode as losses

Across the capacitor I may put some tvs to limit the primary to 1,2kv so it should never get in action if the capacitor is well dimensions

But will protect the diodes and igbt  in case anything go wrong…

This regenerative capacitor may also get hot because of the high current needed… I’m considering making a bank of smaller capacitors to be able to switch… this will allow also changing the positive spike duration… manually…

Because of this regenerative designe I may use few turns more than designed as this high voltage coming from the capacitor grow the current faster reaching saturation before the planned time… maybe 10% more

Tô change the input voltage in going to use a dimmer before the rectifier capacitor so it should be able to work if I keep a 100w lamp connected to it to maintain it conducting… so it can vary up to 240v…

I’m using a 3 fase rectifier so I’m placing a switch after the lamp and before the rectifier on the other phase so I can use it at 120v input with the center tap connected to the rectifier… could be done electronically with a solid state relay… to be simple…

Got two of this diodes in the package sot227 it’s a two diodes in one case and already isolated from case… ufb200fa40p from AliExpress… it seem used but may work…

Also got a couple of igbt  sim this same package to test ixgn60n60c2d1 it’s 600v only however… I would need to use a factor of 1 to 1 on the clamp coil to protect it … also seems used because of the price very low …

The plan is to have the dimmer the full wave bridge rectifier and the diodes on this same heat sunk having 35 cm x 10cm… so they share the heat and improve efficiency… the igbts will have each a heat sink since the collector is not isolated from case… the one I choose already has a ultra fast freewheeling diode in parallel so no worry about that…

The high voltage diode on primary that I’m not sure yet… going to depend on the type of diode I choose

The guy from the diode company said probably is going to be assembled with those disc diodes… I’m starting to think that is getting to expensive…

I think that maybe adding a capacitor in parallel with this diode would help protecting than I realized that if it is 5 times smaller than the cx capacitor it will match and so all that voltage will be transferred with a delay but the voltage won’t get as high since the energy in one capacitor depends on voltage with the square function…

It will reduce the spike adding a shape to it… this capacitor will than be subsequently discharged thru the primary before the energy start to come from the dc source again…

The voltage in the other capacitor in disregard of being transferred by a 5:1 transformer ratio the peak must be calculated by the energy in the cx capacitor… without the cs capacitor herein called pulse shape capacitor the pulse seen in primary positive side would be direct proportion of that factor…

Assuming L1/Lc=Cx/Cs=5

We have that for a 1200 charged Cx being discharged on Lc causes the primary to charge the Cs capacitor to 2700v instead of a theoretic peak of  6kv… it will also delay the peak a little… the voltage across the capacitor and thereto seeing by the diode may reach 2,9kv  if it’s connected to ground… or 2700 if it’s across the diode…

To maintain the same voltage ratio the capacitance cs need to be 25 times smaller  so  the ratio 5squared

Seeing from that point of view the diode requirements could be lowered somewhat…

The cs capacitor start to be part of a pulse forming network formed by each primary side of the Vic

So the formula should be cx/cs=(L1/Lc)squared

« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 23:04:45 pm by sebosfato »

Online Login to see usernames

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4181
Vic coil ratios
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2023, 16:22:46 pm »
I was thinking about vic coil ratios and now with this pulse circuit I’m pretty confident that it will make huge voltage on water

As you seeing from the example before 3kv will exit the primary in each pulse!!! If we just had a 1:1 transformer would already give 3kv pulses to water… but adding. 3:1 factor makes it go up to 9kv!!!  I’m not talking about the  flyback pulse… it’s a further multiplication of that actually.. since it first charged the cx…

There is a sequence of actions during this pulse… current changes abruptly from one coil to the other during pulse on and I believe here is where the huge wave perturbance come from… for a fraction of second primary work as secondary charging the cs while cx is discharged very fast into Lc, after that cs discharge 3kv pulse on primary…

The higher the value of the capacitors the highest will be the current available… for the pulse…

I’m going to use 3 igbts in parallel for each side of the primary… I think will help get lower dissipation and less chance to break due to high current pulse..

« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 17:17:11 pm by sebosfato »