Author Topic: My new approach  (Read 60700 times)

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #232 on: July 18, 2023, 23:20:26 pm »
Today I’m going to share one conclusion I arrived at

If the bifilar coils place the same voltage on both electrodes being them common chokes

The current should be zero reference to ground however there is two things

One what is ground

Second the electrodes being different in size makes the current different

That brings to the secondary

If one electrode probably the inner has a better contact with ground because of its construction and water contacts

The other will need a little bit higher voltage to have the same current to flow

Second point

High voltage vs capacitance vs charge

In an electronic ckt force is given by the charge and it depends on voltage and capacitance

If you have very small capacitance and milion volts the force is smaller than if you have milion charges and high capacitance

So the ground may be the way to increase this capacitance to a maximum in order to place charge on those electrodes

In the 11 cell I imagine the ground could be an aluminum plate siting in the ring below water input of the cells

Ideally could be some material with very high surface area to reduce the joules required to place the required charge that will cause the force that will flex the water..

If the secondary is just to zero the current than it makes some sense that current drops to zero

The current will be only between ground and electrodes

High current

But across the ckt it will be minimum

Think of water as a dielectric if the plates are charged the same they will ? Repel

If you add a dielectric in between, the force ? Increases

What this force wants?

To return the charges to where they came from

So we get a returning force

When a capacitor is charged the opposite charges attracts so they really want to stay in the capacitor

They only discharge of a better path is given

In charging both with same charge make it harder to charge each plate since each plate wants to suck opposite charges near the other electrode next to it kind of cancelling out the inside charges

However the work done by the electromagnetic field on the coils supposedly is able to keep that opposite charges away

So the only way to increase the force is to indeed zero up the current flow by perfect balancing the current that flows in the two coils

So if the current flow in one direction in both coils and exact same quantity a very high force may be achievable

Basically any difference in voltage would lead the opposite electrode to charge with opposite charge and basically discharge the charge on the electrode

A manner to know the exact secondary voltage needed is to apply a voltage to each coil and than measure the current

Than adjust the voltage to make the currents the same

This way is easy to determine what the secondary voltage according to the turn ratio

I consider that could even be two grounds one for each coil one up and one below the cells

This way the secondary can be thin wire since there will be no real current flow there

Imagine two vandegraff generators side by side

Would work the same?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 00:32:13 am by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #233 on: July 19, 2023, 00:40:14 am »
The secondary can be that few turns with wiper arm

As you see if v1-v2 =0 v3 is zero meaning zero current

Also the voltage of each cell should be the same if same voltage is applied to them reference to ground

The trick is adding resistance

It will allow a measurable voltGe drop

Remember the objective is have zero current between the electrodes

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #234 on: July 19, 2023, 02:45:33 am »
In this example I try to show the ground rings and how are connected to maximize the charge

Just to clear up for you a capacitance would also restrict the amp and bring charge to the electrodes but it would block the electric field so much that actually the charge on the electrode would vanish rapidly

So having the ground inside the water is the only way to actually maintain a charge applied to the electrode

Ah another thing the diode may also cause some drop so the secondary may also compensate for it too

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #235 on: July 20, 2023, 00:56:59 am »
Adding resistance in series

This will allow a greater voltage drop in a manner that we can balance the voltage more precisely

For example 1ohm will give one volt per 1ma difference so is a good idea to use two resistors with 1% precision

After it’s zero current flowing or zero voltage at the bridge the resistance can be taken out to maximize power

A transformer with a bifilar secondary would be ideal to test it…

I believe different frequencies will give different results since the capacitance reactance will change so is better to find the resonance first than test at that frequency for balance

In that case the resistors may be connected at one side of the secondary to ground forming a bridge so having the oscilloscope on the bifilar connection to this resistors will show the diferential current

Adding secondary turns on one side only will balance that

Here I think the core size may come into play since too big of a core will have less precision as it need less turns

So maybe the higher number of turns may be handy in this balance

Maybe is not needed maybe it can be compensated with a resistor capacitor or inductor depending if there is some phase for example

I’m very anxious to see it working but I’m kind of confident it may give some result because of the test I mentioned with the acrylic cup with the copper foil around that was the ground

Moving the ground into water having the channel only as a connection of the plates being them isolated around

Make the capacitance many times greater and also it allow some conductance

So here applying 1000v is not 1 v on water and 999 on plastic

It will be basically 2000v with some 20ma making 40watts waste power

And at resonance the power may increase

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The bifilar secondary
« Reply #236 on: July 20, 2023, 01:53:23 am »
What are the implications of a secondary with two bifilar outputs

If you ground one side the other side will be two positives

If we than place this two positive pulse in a transmission line formed by a second set of bifilar chokes what will happen?

Well positive and positive will repel so it will drop a positive wave thru both lines

The waves are therefore repealing each other and travel in reference to the core ground to the cell

Being a positive or negative pulse the effect is the same it will have a repealing force

It’s something I never tried this way…

may be related as it can be propagated if in equilibrium like I described

As I said before force is the product of charges so the more charge you get in electrode the more force will have against the other… the point is that adding opposite charges will attract and so will cause current to flow

And if they are equal they will not be able to cause movement or current but will create very high field of force specially in the inner electrode in the case of tube cell

The inner electrode when charged will cause a potential gradient over the dielectric even if the other electrode is charged to the same potential

That’s because inside a hollow conductor the potential is zero! As was demonstrated by Van de graff

There’s going to be a potential difference inside the electrode set up by the charge at it

If is positive charge it will be decreasing field so at the outside electrode must be set a voltage a little bit smaller than at the inner

Is important to note that this is just some ideas i write here for me to read later. Don’t worry

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Dual coil assembly
« Reply #237 on: July 20, 2023, 07:34:54 am »
The dual coil assembly makes the bifilar split into two coils

The force will be acting most at the secondary bifilar tips

And the coils will transmit the two positive pulses relative to ground straight to the cell

As I tried to explain before the charges in the wires will be rearranged by the charges on the other wire in the bifilar case

Now come the interesting part

Now imagine that this two positive pulses are free to be transmitted along the wire by displacing charges but the chokes also have its electric field going so the pulse can be accelerated by the electric field

Atoms don’t move in the wire only the electrons and so we must analyse it from the electrons perspective

The electrons will attracted to the tipos or the chokes when the secondary apply the positive pulses

So causing a wave of electrons to be pulled along the wires or push if it is negative pulses

In a normal action the transmission line will charge the capacitance thru the inductance and the pulse goes on

In this case is the same but as the choke is subjected to also an electric field along its way

This de localized electrons wave can be accelerated or even maybe retarded by the field

Stan talk about amp restriction so at first glance it may seem it’s likely to be retarding but may be contraintuitive

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Flat pancake coils as electrostatic field sources
« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2023, 15:49:34 pm »
The the inter coil capacitance makes a current to flow when a voltage is applied in this coil

This current is the redistribution of charges and it neutralizes the electric field of the coil

And that’s why transformers are known to have low electric charges on the tips

The current start to flow when we connect to a ckt because this balance is disrupted and the electric field flows thru the ckt

The tips of the copper coil having 100turns per layer won’t have same electrostatic field of a coil having 3 turns per layer

A flat pancake coil would have the most electrostatic field output

Also using thick isolation or the wire or spacing it also reduce the capacitance and so the amount of charge that will be displaced to neutralize the field

Independent of how small the capacitance will cause this current and will always seek neutralizing the charges on the wires the smaller is the capacitance therefore the greater will be the remaining electrostatic field on tips of the wire…

For example a copper wire used for transformers have a dielectric very very thin giving a lot of capacitance between windings turns and layers

It seem to me that if we want to use the electrostatic force available on this coil we must think we’ll how to make it

The inductance of the coil allow a delay on the displacement or this currents

Tesla had this pancake coils but was bifilar in his case

I believe this is why Stan made that drawing of the coils former with separation between them and multiple segments

So after all maybe the best way would be to have all this in extreme high vacuum to have the lowest possible capacitance and no source of current to discharge by corona inside

The other option is encapsulamento or work under oil

One guy in Italy who told me have got this working told me he was using this kind of coils bifilar pancakes made with speaker wire

But he actually neve showed it to me not to anyone so I can’t confirm his story he was a member of this forum Tutanka

I helped him to buy some rocks for his heating stove from Brazil he told me he was using the hydrogen if I remember well to heat it so the rocks would retain the heat

So pancakes makes sense in this way…

I remember I was using two acrylic 3mm thick disks to contain the pancakes

Perhaps the best way to do it would be to have one in one direction and the other reversed and stack them sequentially than imerge in oil or epoxy

This last step is important since high voltage jumps anywhere if air is there because it’s easily ionized and so arcs are possible

With my experiences canola oil proved to be good enough to provide enough isolation to pass beyond 30kv with no problems

I Made some acrílic boxes for it and made a vacuum treatment of the coils to take the air out from them inside oil is increadible how much air get inside a dense windowed coil

With the case of the pancakes vacum  may not be so necessary but will still be easier to get air out … it’s just important to keep in mind that the space of the core must be considered… so the best form factor would be maybe 2mm isolator and just those nice transparent speaker wires forming pancakes

The good thing about oil is you can use the core better since few mm will already be enough to block the high voltage

The bad thing is that is very complex

The best wires for it would be silicon wires this are made of multi stranded thin copper wires glued with silicon cover

Easy to rol perfect isolation but very expensive at least here in Brazil and for my pocket


« Last Edit: July 22, 2023, 16:57:13 pm by sebosfato »

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Best theory I ever thought about the Vic
« Reply #239 on: July 25, 2023, 12:11:58 pm »
Setting up a positive field on the cell make the water produce a current

As I have already pointed the configuration of the ground on the water will tell how much current will flow on the high voltage bifilar side

This current is not the current flowing to ground is the differential current flowing in the bifilar

Adding two resistors is possible to individualize these currents and differentiate them in respect to the current flowing to ground

Water ground may be a simple piece of metal inside water but it must form a high resistance in the way to the electrodes

I would guess the best place to make it would be inside the water filter or even make the polímero filter inside a stainless steel pipe and just connect it to ground…

Voltage is important because we are dealing with charging the self capacitance of the inside electrode actually both

The secondary is set to zero up this current and so it must sum its voltage to the choke going to the inner electrode

Now comes the nice thing I was thinking

Stan was not dumb so he thought of a way to mechanically or electromechanicaly or even electronically create this condition instead of a wiper arm

That was probably a patent over simplification drawing

Stan had some pulsing ckts showing two variac and now I’m going to try to explain why

First Stan used a wave form that seem like a high duty cycle I think this charge the chokes for flyback discharge

I believe The opposite duty cycle is what fires the secondary during the chokes flyback discharge

This way will be easier to determine the exact voltage ratio the secondary must have for a given voltage collapsing or the coils to make the current zero at least at that very instant after it may have a a inevitable flow as the pulse shapes are not going to be equal but the point is to find the voltage where current starts at zero

So it’s a combination of a pulse in the secondary and the collapse of the chokes so it would really double the frequency

We need to create a voltage on the secondary variable to be able to find the correct ratio

It’s going to depend on may things

First the construction of the cavity and the resistance of both electrodes to ground this is the most important parameter

I think a variable choke resistor coil could be useful in a real world usage and that may be why he patented exactly it

A wiper arm imply a kind of short ckt on the contacts

If you ever took your variac apart you see that the contact is a sort of medium resistance graphite to be able to not short the two turns it touches

Also a variac has more turns normally to keep the voltages per turn low

 … a resistive wire won’t pose that problem of shorting between turns with the wiper arm

and being it under effect of the electromagnetic induced voltage it will have less losses than a actual resistor outside of the coil

This could actually be the closest possible theory of this thing I ever had!

So determining the correct voltage drop needed on the negative side can lead to the design of a coil that is simpler and all in one

Another method to change the secondary to choke ratio voltage would be to use coupling

For example having a movable core that cuts the field to the secondary for example

I think im staring to understand why Meyer care so much about the resistances not only on the Vic but also the water

The resistance will tell how much power will be needed to maintain a certain voltage on water respect to ground

And this is important because voltage is equivalent to charge and charge to force

So the geometric configuration is essencial to minimize the current flow to capacitance ratio

Ps when I talk about collapse etc don’t forget there is also resonance going on I just simplify the analysis to tell what is going at moment of switching

The cell and chokes at this point would be operating in resonance to the water capacitance ground

Another way to go for it ia to have two resistor at the choke starts to ground the resistor will give the diferential voltage

So adding more turns on the positive choke would equilibra-te the voltage on the resistors

When they read zero you have supposedly achieved the goal

Seems the simplest method with no fancy equipment just a voltmeter a couple of high precision and maybe power resistors

The proportionality of secondary to choke voltage may work if cell parameters are fixed

We have doing a blind dumb work building stuff

With some eye on this concepts I expect being less dumb
« Last Edit: July 25, 2023, 12:27:20 pm by sebosfato »