Author Topic: My new approach  (Read 60693 times)

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #152 on: May 23, 2023, 17:34:52 pm »
Somehow hydroxide leaked and destroyed the coil insulation maybe the 18awg wire is old or maybe the potash reacted with it

Probably the second

Now I need to design a better way to prevent water leaking

Fdm 3d printers are not very good making it water tight

The options should be epoxy painting it

Or make another version where I can pour epoxy inside

Both temporary solutions

This lead to two question for me

Is water capable of acting like a conductor

How much voltage drop should be expected where and why

By obvious reason the greater is the volume water occupies more field it receives

As it’s only a single turn is possible that one cell can be substituted by a turn although the resistance and característica will differ a lot

The voltage induced would be the same?

If we get a primary and secondary made with copper the electric field will pass thru being the same

The current will be dependendo on the xl and resistance of wire and load

Likewise water will also have a xl and a resistance

This need to be low or won’t work

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #153 on: May 24, 2023, 09:58:57 am »
A liquid rubber might work for you...

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #154 on: May 27, 2023, 15:50:05 pm »
Below in the attached picture, you see the anti-resonant behaviour of the coils.

In this setup, I have a bifilar coil with a doide in series connected to 2 series tubes.

The resonant frequency is about 600khz, and the real part of the impedance is about 16kOhm, the imaginary is 0 at resonance.

The coils have about 30ohms each, wounded in a C flyback core. The E core shown in the picture is the step up transformer.

The measurement is made at the input of the bifilar coils, so, at resonance, the circuit sees only a resistive component, not an inductive or capacitive. And, at resonance, you`ll have the lowest current at the cell, as well as the lowest voltage.

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #155 on: May 28, 2023, 05:38:22 am »
Hi Uziao Very nice graph!!!

Also very nice equipment you are using!

You seem to be hitting the parallel resonance between the coils so it gives maximum impedance and as you found the lowest voltage on the cell!!  As the energy is accumulated in the coil and water only participate as the charging resistor

The frequency seeem to be very high… is it air coil?

I have a question when you say the real part is 1,6kohm that would be the impedance of the resonant tank in parallel?

I believe the cell when in generator mode (having magnetic fields present) will have a restoring force for any given input of voltage

That’s because the combination of magnetic and electric will cause the water to move or cause a pressure in one direction

I believe when this restoring force forces the water to cut the fields it will generate than a back emf that is in proportion with the velocity of the particles and the strength of the fields  causing an impedance to be high as you are accumulating energy in the cell in this case ultrasonic energy of vibration

I found this anti resonance idea looking at welding ultrasonics because they operate by fixed voltage it reduces the power consumption when there is no load for example but as the load comes in the impedance drops as the energy is being transfered

The ultrasonic transducer generate a voltage if you simply press it that’s why water would require a external field to be able to convert movement to electric energy and vice versa…

I was able to calculate with chattpt that it would be possible to generate some few volts from the cell if a field of 1tesla was present and the Q factor of the cavity is high… the Q factor from the electric perspectiveq will tell how much energy it can convert from kinetic to electric and vice versa

In my recent point of view about it seem like this is one of the ways of making water sing

However obtaining the fields is not an easy task

I bought a gauss meter to play with and have a better idea of it however

I found is little hard to have such high fields

Even with neodimium super power magnets I could get around 300mt only very close to the magnet

Basically water cell should be like a transducer you must cause físicas movement and this movement gives back a bemf that causes the impedance as the bemf approach the input voltage current drops to zero.. antiresonant

That’s why I started thinking perhaps we could directly send fields thru water that can induce this voltage directly and with that I realized that if the water is the wire in the transformer and the electrodes just the electrical connection the reaction should be reversed

Like I explained hydrogen being generated in the positive if current is allowed to flow

Meyer seem to have got to this point and than instead of discharging he simply charge even more till it break a part

In the same manner I believe it can still resonate with the ultrasonics although it appear to me that is not needed but could be a coumpound effect on output

My básica idea is that if we apply ultrasonic energy at right frequency in a resonant cavity with water it will make water shake

If the fields are placed like I explained the movement will induce a voltage by its own so the cell could be simply discharged to generate the hydrogen

It seems to me this is what horvath did

Meyer says horvath made the best electrolysis ever made maybe because of that

And that’s why I still believe Meyer found an even better way of doing it

What are your thought on this method és I tried to talk about..

1 by converting the kinetic into electric ? Using ultrasonic piezo


2 by inducing the voltage into the cell directly and extracting just the current output

Also would like to know what you think about using the resonant tank as a load to the cell in this perspective where the coils induce directly the voltage on water while gets this energy back from the reaction

If I could propose you an experiment would be to try adding a magnet to the cell and pulse it with no coils just to see if you get it to create a kind of impedance of this kind I tried to explain

The magnetic fields considering a tube inside the other would have to be toroidal like to give a up or down force

Not a simple field to generated

The second way I see it is having a ruber forming a spiral on the inner electrode (like a solenoid made of oring) forming a spiral channel… than you can wind a normal coil around the electrodes and the force will again be up or down ( the force in this case is actually circular but the spiral forces it up or down depending on the direction of course… )

Having water below and or above this will form a resonant cavity that should resonate

The cell would be just the transducer (like I tried to explain recently as a subwoofer)

You own that equipment or is it from university or something!

Thanks for sharing your results!!!

« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 06:13:57 am by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #156 on: May 28, 2023, 11:56:23 am »
16kOhm (not 1,6kOhm) is the impedance seen by the driver. If I apply 100v pulse, the current drawn from the power supply (and consequently flowing to the cell, because all components are in series) will be 100/16000 = aprox 6,25mA. At resonance, you have current restriction at cell, same effect if you use stainless stell coils instead of copper.

And, as I stated before, less current in the cell means less voltage in the cell, you cannot violate ohms law applying more voltage and having less current, IT WILL ALWAYS BE A LINEAR RELATIONSHIP between voltage and current.

It is the impedance of the self resonance of the coils, or anti-resonance, or parallel resonance, you can call it many names.

Im using a ferrite C core from a TV flyback, the frequency is right, as I`m using only the coils capacitance and inductance to resonante. If you want lower freuquencies, increase the number of turns or use a higher permeability core.

I bought this equpment at a junkyard, they were ready to crush it, and I save it. It worked fine for many years, but last year it stopped working and I didnt had time to open to fix it. It was from a siemens lab as you can see in the front tag.

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2023, 13:12:31 pm »
Ohh sorry to hear it’s broken

Hope you find a way to fix it is very nice equipment could be very handy

Do you know how to fix it?  Seems with it!  Maybe you can bring to a place where they can fix for you would be very nice!

Anyway the same can be done with some multimeters and or scope and a table with values

I use to plot some graphs of impedance vs frequency with labview by measuring the current and voltages as function of frequency

However is limited somehow by the sampling rate

To measure the frequencies higher I used the dividers from Meyer so the counter from labview could get read of it

I’m going to make a video of the test today if I make in time

« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 15:32:25 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2023, 16:04:55 pm »
The big cell I builded was a big failure since it leaked

So I’m trying to think a better way to do this without losing more material…

One thing I considered is that the cell had uneven configuration so would not be good for resonating

So I’m trying to think a way to make the thing in a better and maybe simpler way

So instead of having 4 cells I’m thinking of having two isolated cells so they can work together in the same assembly

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How to put voltage to perform work in a dead short condition
« Reply #159 on: May 29, 2023, 11:21:32 am »
I think I found the solution

I may use simply maybe silicon tubes like the water coil but having only one turn per cell

With That I’ll be able to stack the cells in series

The important is to try keep the distances small and have the most of the field on the water

It would be good if in between the output plates could be a high dielectric constant material to form a capacitance that could perhaps resonate with the turn

Maybe with the kind of voltages involved in resonance the distances resistance become irrelevant

I’m thinking how I’m going to make a huge current capacitor for resonating with it

I’m thinking about buying some copper foil and try getting the polietileno foil I have here and make a high voltage high current capacitor for it…

We should desire the most possible voltage to current ratio since it will have less resistance by one side

By the other frequency increase will increase the resistance of the coils because of skin effect so the optimal frequency may be around what Stan talked 5 to 10khz

and yet current must also be allowed to grow some…

As the cell is the load of the resonant tank and it feedback directly in the tank part of the energy it’s consuming it’s possible that the current needed to disrupt a certain amount of water may be different than usual

1nf resonating at 5khz would have 31kohms reactance so it would give 31kv for one amp

So maybe a 100nf would be a good starting point with a 10mh inductor

To increase the power will have a higher capacitor and lower turns with thicker coils to maintain the same frequency

When I did those tests with resonant tanks in 2008 I used a 30meter coil I made with mutistrand wire I made with 8x 18 awg in parallel

It had around 30mh and I remember having 20amps on it using bunch of capacitors and diodes connected to the cells

What was wrong with that design was that the cells were far apart and the water tubes had no connection between them so I could never catch the resonant voltage on water as the cells were not water connected

But that basically is the idea

So How to put voltage to perform work in a dead short condition

The resonant tank in series can be considered as a dead short condition for me!!!

Using is as a primary coil to the water cell for inducing the voltage there in continuous feedback such that the water provides the electrons and the tank consume them and feedback their excess energy into the loop itself

So having a good resonant capacitor is vital and also a coil with a Millie ohms range

Another way would be to resonate a section of transmission line as it will behave like a short if the other side is open circuit the open circuit could than be connected to a primary that induce the power in water

Much more complex or maybe not

I think I just found a good solution

I’m goin to use one of this wire bobbins pic in attachment

Cut one of the sides and place a set of electrodes inside closing half the space to capture the upfront field

Maybe two electrodes can be placed on each side to catch the fields in bipolar way this will load the resonant tank in both ways if just one electrode on each side only one phase of the tank will be loaded

The important is to have the output having a diode to keep the electrode polarized and in the second case of last sentence  to have a antiparalela diode to allow the tank to resonate and so on

Some very high power diodes arrived 1200v 90 amps

Somehow some info I’m posting is getting hacked and edited don’t know what they fear

Anyway the coil has around 33 turns and 25mm2 crossection with an isolation of at least 450/750 volts isolation between layers being 6 turns each layer

If we consider 1000v it would have survive

If I want it to be able to go over it I need to add some polyester between the layers

I made just a single coil for this test now I’m buying some capacitors from Ali to make up to 100 amps flow in this coil

With a total of 103uH I would need a 10uf capacitance to resonate with for getting 5khz for example

The reactance  at this configuration is 3,2ohm or so

The resistance of the coil need to be measured with a dc current flowing into it… But seems to be very small

With this low reactance it would need 60 amps to get 200v

Reducing the capacitor will raise the frequency and reactance

Other way is adding core outside like if it was a pot core and also inside where possible

This would increase the reactance some

« Last Edit: June 04, 2023, 15:43:15 pm by sebosfato »