Author Topic: My new approach  (Read 62554 times)

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My new approach
« on: December 15, 2022, 16:32:31 pm »
Hello, I’m going to post here some of my ideas in a manner to keep things organized for my own… feel free to comment

In resume the plan is to have a power supply capable of really getting water molecules in a bad situation

To achieve that the main points are

Would be good if it was a isolated from ground power supply… well I have a 6kva 220v x 220v 30amps maybe it has output for 110v 60 amps too it’s a  transformer on my back yard may be possible to use

Second the inductor chokes must have the ability to hold all this power

Third the switches capable of it and must be protected

For an inductor to have such a power it must operate at high frequency high current have a huge core and a gap

I plan to use copper foil immersed in oil for it with all ferrite I can get

I want to arrange it like two coils in two cores having another coil that couple the first two…

For the frequency generator im goin to use my pll board under development

I hope to be able to put at least 2kw of power in a single cell and see what happens

The thing I lack most is time and help to build stuff

Now let’s get to it

The pulsing ckt is going to be isolated by optocoupler necessarily to be able to safely ground  the operator part of the ckt

The switch’s are going to be igbt of 30 amp 1,2kv

To let it colapse but protect tvs will limit to 800v peak at this point

I plan to pulse each choke with a primary coil…but they are coupled by a secondary that couple both

So during pulse on a pulse will already come out and when the next pulse come it combine with the collapsing pulse of the other that terminated… this will create a sort of push pull that will have the ability to limit the output voltage by changing the coupling
Adjust to tune in to the dielectric proprieties

Another coil in another core is going to work as the amp inhibiting coil I think this coil connect a ground in the cell to Allow other chokes to make more effect on the cell… one thing I notice during this years is that when we apply voltage to the cell high relative to the capacitance of the cell it generates ionized gas… or at least it seem that the gas bubbles want to move vigorously to the border when rise… I believe perhaps the electron extraction has a function that is time dependent… looking at older drawings from Meyer it he is applying around 20 hz  since he was using 60hz ac source rectified on top

I mean that to be able to actually capture the electrons from water it needed to be first stored in the form of amps in a shorted coil and than liberated into a exhaust heated element

When we take an electron out of water bath it gets positive relative to ground… actually charging it while ejecting electrons you are charging mostly the capacitance of the plastic holding the water… so inside will have a positive charge and outside a negative charge… if it’s thing enough or high dielectric will have high capacitance meaning more amps are required to rise its voltage

Depending on the shape of the plates foils bath etc the electric fields can be maximized to Remain inside water

Electric fields are restricted to outside of conductors and inside of dielectrics… however stray fields will seats on top of that also waves can get anywhere… guess what happens with a electric field of a charged capacitor that is shorted?

Well this is what the fracture cell was actually doing

Two wave interacting

I believe I’m going to get surprised!

« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 20:25:53 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2022, 17:58:03 pm »

I believe surface]waves was what Meyer was trying to create… waves are mostly potential energy

Hope it help your Christmas to be more productive haha

Meyer differently than Eccles or tayhehan seems to concentrate the generation of the waves on the Vic letting the tubes to be only an antena like instead of generating the waves and restricting to there… that may be why he discovered the electron extraction

Is important to notice that for it to work it just need both waves to be opposite in direction but need to be connected thru a high resistance to make effect… the secondary bifilar… basically only capacitive coupling wins propably

When waves change medium it reflects so the main goals is to develop two spiral vector inverter generator that has an impedance match to the cell… this should be simply to have the same linear capacitance so the wave can go back and forth at maximum

Water capacitance is 30 times bigger than plastics so I think foil is the only way to go… it’s width and thickness of dielectric should compensate those factors to give same linear capacitance…
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 15:48:03 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2022, 21:33:31 pm »
From 220v to apply 3kw with a single transformer it must be 1,5 mh to take 30 amos of charge each pulse

The cores have an area of  625mm2 so stacking many together and having a 2,5 mm gap it’s going to be possible to have 42 turns for a 3mh coil…

 to be able to not satura-te  for a bmax of ferrite ,3 ou iron 1,2 Tesla the number of turns can be 4 times smaller

I found this calculator
It calculates the secondary to get the right values for dissipation go to the end than insert the primary inductance…

I have 5 CC cores pairs from Thornton model nc100 also have 8 ni100 and 8 ni99 all ip12e material

I plan to use 3 cores as stack with another 6 ni100 and a gap around 2,5mm

I’m building a bobbin made with abs and I plan to harden it after with epoxy… and use under oil probably

Primary may be copper foi wound on top of secondary having around 2mm

I’m still planing how to come to it exactly

For the power supply there is going to be two 50amp fwbr in parallel with a heat sync with 50 amp fuse to try keeping dissipation low

Considering a 1,5 voltage drop it should dissipate 45 watts for 30 amps at least so it must be think of

After it I’m placing a very short coil of few turns before a 450v 1,5mf capacitor that should hold decent ripple at 5khz

The core also heats up at very high power usage and it’s inductance increases with heat up to a point so is to be in mind it’s heat stability during operation if the resonant frequency is important

For the switches I’m using igbt of 30 amps and 1,2 kv and a bunch of tvs to keep any thing going over 800v under control… they go with a diode in parallel with the primaries… a 30 amps diode… each tvs takes 4 amps so is important to have like at least two sets of 20 in series… to be able to work cool with just a cooler fan over it… I plan using this point of junction to apply two positive pulses at colapse to the cell having  the positive at the center of the pushpull connected where Meyer show the isolated ground stuf

The amp inhibitor coil is going to be wound on a iron core because it will have more saturation and it may be receiving only dc anyway pulsed

It may be connected to a center tap thru a diode maybe the only one…

The cell may have a top over to serve as a virtual ground.. this is how the waves may be directed or perhaps increased

So basically there’s resonance induced in the resonant charging chokes that may be of the same z or close to the cell z in order to not having reflection… I mean in the sense of a transmission line… The distributed inductance and capacitance must be compensated to match water impedance… I’m not sure if it’s water resistance only or the capacitance inductance only or a complex impedance that’s one of the points need to investigate

Water impedance may be easier to manipulate thru contaminants and filtering

The peak load voltage of a full wave bridge rectifier Vm =Vrms* sqrt(2) so for 240v it will be 340v

The dc voltage across the load Vavg = vpeak *.636 = 216v

At 15 amps per coil it serve maybe 180v avg considering voltage drops and ripple at capacitor

I think this is my starting point…

Next the cell must be able to receive this and not melt

« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 16:29:18 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2022, 08:35:57 am »
Right now I have some design ideas

One is a push pull using a transformer

Other is a two transformers pulsed half wave I believe this would give the most of the collapsing fields but perhaps in a uncontrolled way

Another is having two transformers coupled by a variable coil that is wound holding the two transformers together (to adjust the coupling between the two transformers) this would limit the field collapse according to the number of turns on this coil…

I think maybe this could be the choke that has a wiper arm … the shorter the coil the higher will be the coupling also the current in this coil because it makes the two transformers work like one being wound in two parts with a gap what is the better way? I don’t know maybe the gap however the idea of the coil is good for limiting the problem with the switching

I think one of the problems is that usually coils are wound in bobins that sits in the middle of the two cores over the gap… this makes all couple together… however if the coils are wound over the core the two sets will have a adjustable coupling however the phasing may be different to work with… a coil over the two cores would couple them… of corse it must be shorted into itself somehow or made resonant by connecting a capacitor

Let’s talk about waves… how do you make a wave in a chain? In water? In a guitar string? You need to pluck it with a short pulse and it just get going back and forth until vanishes… we know that if we give the right timing it can become very vigorous wave adding and adding… however how to detect this wave? Is it possible? How fast it is? We need to get that fast? Or can be hit sub harmonically?

Well a spike in a coax cable is the answer some of this questions

However a coax cable has very little capacitance so it’s impedance is very different from a water coax cable made of inox steel

Basically the lower is the impedance of the transmission line resonant charging choke the greater will be the Current to voltage ratio

When a wave change impedance it reflects inverted if is a short or the chain is fixed on the End and it canes back non inverted in the opposite case

Another thought is a chain lying on the ground can only have a wave if you do a lot of work and when it drops again it stops for clearing the sistem we are making also may behave this way it need a tensioning on the string so it can vibrate at the right frequency

The point is the pulse must be powerful enough and the chokes must have enough capacitance to absorb it and be able to make it resonate with water…

One way of having a transmission line with a characteristic impedance similar to water would be the have a wet coil having very thin dielectric and immersed in water in a manner as to not allow conduction…

Many new ideas are coming… but I think getting foil and thin layer of oil or plastic may be just enough to match

Another way could be increase the inductance of the water cell having a ferrite core for example or ferritic stainless steel but may not be the case

Meyer used a 40 amp diode for a reason too

I’m going to have it from the primaries to the line so it will receive two collapses doubling the “frequency”

The manipulation of fields go this way

The amp inhibitor coil will shape the pulse relative to ground… both electrodes receives positive pulses but one is inside and I think this will make the magic happen creating a differential in the circuit lot to do

Perhaps the secondary could be the coupling coil among the two transformers too.. this way it get a spike up a one down hummm maybe the amp inhibitor coil but maybe not because it will have dc and it would saturate the core…

This I’m describing is somewhat based on the Vic sync pulse ckt I believe it is bi phase

Stan than show the 3 phase drawings and I believe is just the same idea as you see the amp inhibitor coil is connected to the center tap of each “ secondary “  this mean that the cell is charged relative to ground and that it receives both waves positive and negative in sync but actually maybe is two inverted sine waves superimposed…

I think is a resonance just like the one I did back in 2009 the positive goes to one electrode and negative to the other electrode…but this time resonating relative to the water bath capacitance

I’m saying that there necessarily be some Third electrode perhaps inside the cell (most likely) this Standish a capacitance in the water of infinite distance for saying… water has wavelength inside of it … have you ever placed your hands inside a cell doing electrolysis? Is very strange !  The electric fields can be measured an seeing is possible mapping the equipotencial curves

Mind note if switched from positive side it can generate a negative pulse! So may be interesting to switch one transformer from each side such as to alternate the pulses …
 one interesting thing is that if the secondary is part of both transformer it will naturally have a sort of restricted current output since it’s combining the inductance of a transformer that is collapsing with the other having a regular pulse… may give a interesting result

« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:59:42 am by sebosfato »

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The alternator
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2022, 01:07:29 am »
The alternator is a 3 phase source I believe Meyer used as a pulse source for a 3 phase Vic… is a good way to have a variable source of frequency and amplitude…

I’m trying to think a good way to protect the pulsing ckt and by the way in the past I tried many different solutions like regenerative feedback and simply clamping with a coil and a diode… this are manners I found to allow the field to collapse but not having much loss of transistors… by using this regenerative options is possible to limit the maximum colapse voltage of the transformer and maybe also monitor where the energy is going if we get an Ameter there..

It requires a second coil under the primary with a ratio little smaller than the max voltage of the transistor and the applied voltage input peak so that when the field collapse this voltage will rise only until the voltage reach supply voltage and limit to thatzzz along with this is important to have some other protection snubber of some kind and or tvs across the primary specially at the power levels involved here.

When energy is absorbed by the water this collapse should get under control since it will not be reflecting back.. maybe get even worst who knows

So the alternator was indeed a nice solution for cutting all this problem all at once… how powerful can be an alternator?

I found some 1600v 30amps igbt to work with and need to get some more diodes to get everything like I want…

Step by step I get there! For the pulsing ckt I think would be nice to design a good iron box to get rid of interference… also would be nice to design a very well designed pll ckt and make in china… it takes 15 days to get here… I plan to do it. If I have the time..
I have to find my diagrams…

I have think a lot this days about it and perhaps I understood of the meaning of the distributed inductance and capacitance Meyer talks about…

This two core ideas actually create a situation where the impedance of the coil get much higher because during the pulse off of the other transformer it’s going to allow the coil to have a secondary and primary action so every turn will have like an inductor in series…

From what I read a transmission line must have the impedance matched To the load antena such as to be able to transmit power Because reflections impede the power to get in…

I’m targeting 2kohm impedance because this is how pure my water can get here in my filters…

I just found that 2,5mh has exactly 78,5375 ohms of impedance xl at 5khz maybe a magic number

I haven’t test it yet but apear to me that the output of the pulses is going to be mostly dc since it gets a positive pulse from both cores…

Now come the nice part… I think this distributed inductance capacitance is what will make the coils resonate at much lower frequency even if low in value…

I believe that it needs a dc current in the cell and coil such that the wave can go up and down… probably half… I think the gap will allow the transformer to work as required even having a saturation currrent going… but that’s maybe why meyer uses a separated core for the amp inhibitor coil also the use of resistance in his drawings early..

I think this along with pulsing the water coil in reference to ground the electron extraction could work…

What if there was just water in those epgs?

What if we could apply this field right thru the water too?  Wtf

Don’t know who remember the water coil idea… water is a sort of moving conductor I remember I could not directly take current out of it… may depend on the frequency but now with this idea of pulsing in one direction by alternating the primaries enlightened me.

The way to go maybe is with 3 phase in this case to maintain the polarization most of the time… I would use iron core for this case I guess so the frequency can be lower and more magnetic flux possible…

I believe movement may be important for it to happen and more than that it must have a nice conduction to get a Nicer capacitance….

I believe to resonate the cell must be at a certain minimum dc current because is like having a little tension on a string.. also the coil need to be somewhat charged because of that too..

The capacitance to resonate with only that 2,5mH coil would need to be 31,8uF so that how the distributed inductance and capacitance may get into play the impedance is very low it means in resonance would require 20 amps to get 1,5kv …

« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 23:55:55 pm by sebosfato »

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The EECkt
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2022, 01:20:13 am »
The electron extraction ckt seem to me as manner to take advantage of the physical transformation of water into gas and the fact that it will create movement out of the cell…

If the gas come out of the surface of the water with the same charge as the water it will repel and be forced away from water this mean it has created energy somehow but consumed too

The only way I see it happening is this electrons going elsewhere somehow… I believe in the case of the car they would need to go to the exhaust or maybe a antena

Stan talk about “consuming” them on a heating element… I think he used a kind of valve diode for this or perhaps something with photoelectric trigger because of his drawings… anyway the electrons must go out otherwise it won’t ionize anything… but to ionize lot of gas with mili amperes won’t give much…  maybe it will only show when the reaction really happen?

The interaction of ligh could create a trigger so is to be investigated too…

The surface of water have a important role in this I think it could be increased having another electric field right above the water level

Or at just the water level again a pump forcing the ions away from the electrodes also is doing work

When you get charged particle moving against an electric field you are gaining energy so this electron extraction screen being more positive than the electrodes on water and ionized gas being generated theoretically than the positive ions would attract electrons so it would actually work as a energy source of a kind just like Meyer said…

Adding more stages voltage can be increased and the gas can get even more destabilized… if it were discharged the gas would get stable again… according to him…

If subsequent levels are connected to a common place electron excess will be there but to extract this energy it would need to get discharged still even if it must go to simply ground. This mean the cell would get load of negative charge relative to ground.

Would have Meyer lied about if the cell is positive or negative?

Could we try all this with maybe air? Co2 ? Sure!

« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 02:19:50 am by sebosfato »

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2022, 09:53:14 am »
Nice link !
I've ask my self several times "why was Tesla given a unit measurement with magnetism"
A quick glance at the link says it core saturation... to me???
What magic happens at core saturation?

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Re: My new approach
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2022, 16:31:57 pm »
That’s a lot of info in that link! Glad you appreciated! Tesla was important part of science I believe he was given the unity name because of his work on alternating current and development of transformers….

The saturation makes the inductance drops to what’s would it should be with only air in it… it’s useful in magnet amplifiers where you want a coil to behave like a short when you apply dc to the primary coil for example…