Author Topic: Back to Basics  (Read 16084 times)

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2023, 08:36:20 am »
Ronie says the thing was drived like an antenna

An antenna has basicaly two parts

A ground plane and the antenna itself

If the ground was around the antenna it would not emit

Actually become a very low impedance... if you calculate based on the diameters and the dielectric value of water it gives a low value like 3

So it does not matter how pure the water is it will behave like if indeed had 3 or less ohms

If we want to place 1500 volts we need a discharge capable of 500 amps surge

A manner to increase water cell impedance is to increase its linear inductance!!! Remember that... adding a core to the cell directly change its impedance! Raise it a lot

What I'm trying to point is that when we want a impedance transformation the impedance of the load must be higher than the impedance transformer otherwise is like want to ligh a 220v h 1kw bulb with a 50w transformer

Most the voltage drop will be on the transformer and lost as heat... the bulb may not even get red hot

That's what I'm talking about kick in

The real complicated  part is that this impedance transformation is frequency dependent and without knowing the water frequency vs ppm will be hard to get there....

Another reason to get it low as possible impedance is that we want to apply a lower voltage and according to stan it must step up this way more current can flow allowing it to resonate easier...

The objective is to have a 200v transformer output that if connected to this chokes will burn the 200v bulb when connected thru it

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2023, 09:55:06 am »
With a 220v bulb example how low z would need go to burn it

Let's say it burn with 250v 2kw of power that is 8amps

So if we are applying the correct frequency for the impedance transformation it would require a impedance of 27 ,5 ohms

So even applying 220v it will consume 8 amps and burn the lamp

This is just an example of how the transmission line can transform the impedance

The interesting about impedance calculator is that if the diameter is equal to the distance the impedance is zero...

I believe is because it become like a short So to increase impedance we need small separation

The separation between the wires tells the impedance they will have...

My best guess as I said to reduce the length we could increase the capacitance of the line and capacitance accordingly... this would have the effect to reduce the length required for the frequency used

How to increase cell impedance? Ferrite
Pot core

The cell in this case is like the continuation of the wire...

To get the results of what is happening I believe the only way is getting the readings of current input vs output of the coils with analog isolated meters... it will affect impedance but anyway is the only possible manner to read current transformation specialy if load is not a resistor

The voltages also can be compared on input and output using an isolated probe on the end side for example

If we manage to make a transmission line with 3ohms or so with enough meters to resonate at low frequency than we gona see some nice action...

Otherwise I could be wrong in this analysis and the cells were referential to one or two isolated grounds inside the water bath maybe outside the cell making is impedance higher perhaps

But anyways the lower is the impedance of the tl the higher will be the power it can deliver to a load...

The power is not limited to the input impedance vs the input voltage in this little thing because of the reflections

And that's why I'm saying if the impedance of the load is too low vs the impedance of the line the line will not be able to do much with the load since the power is limited

The current input will be reduced by the reflections

You see?

To get the power to real kick in the impedance must lower than the load

Anyway those are only thoughts and words...

This is a calculator you can take a look

To find the z of the chokes we just need some experiments with different values of resistors

And reverse engineering it measuring the input current vs output current and hitting with 1/4 wave length

Ah dip the coil in a liquid will decrease the impedance

And if is pure water it reduces more!

« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 10:16:25 am by sebosfato2 »

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2023, 10:08:00 am »
And that's why I'm saying if the impedance of the load is too low vs the impedance of the line the line will not be able to do much with the load since the power is limited

At resonance, the impedance of the circuit becomes purely resistive, and its value equals the resistance in the circuit. This results in the circuit being in a state of minimum impedance.

This is why impedance matching the water's resistivity to your coils is so important in order to maximize power transfer and minimize current flow through the WFC.

The water needs to be able to resist normal electrolysis by having an impedance just greater than or equal to the power source.

If the water impedance is slightly higher, then you can properly tune the choke coils to match resonance to the distinctively different capacitances of both sides of the water cell, due to differences in the cylindrical geometry, which results in the chokes having slightly different resistances.  This may also make up for the slight impedance difference between the water and the secondary.

That was what I already said here.

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2023, 10:22:40 am »
Yes it seems our analysis are aligned!

The thing is just that I believe the resistance only function is to limit the power in that case and not really have much to do with the impedance transformation.. those are only losses... and maybe may make the operation frequency little wider

As I tried to explain in the case the impedance of the cell Is higher than the line impedance the reflections will lead to an ever increasing power demand so the resistance limits how much power is possible to be feed...

Playing with the calculator it seems that to get a low impedance the wires must be as close as possible to each other…

a 1mm with 0.01 distance give 10ohms .. .still higher than water cell
however if you dive the coil in a very very pure water perhaps the impedance can be brought down to 3!!

this water need to be pure and the coating must be water resistance or wont last long…

also putting in oil will bring it down but not near as much as water would

having cables runing under water for comunication was big problem in the past because of this…

now it come to how we effectively bring the impedance up of a tube cell so we can apply like 10 amps and have 1500 volts across it ?

well for the part of the impedance is possible only if we somehow make the cell to fit inside a iron core or ferrite and feed from as a load from each side

this can increase the pulse delay 10ths of times  and also its impedance…

all is needed is to add magnetic material to it!

this will bring the impedance of the cell maybe up to the 130 ohms range!!!!! much much better than 3 ohm!!! anything will be better than those 3 ohms…

that impedance change of the water cell may be easily confirmable!!! it may be the restoring force needed…

i still think that my experiment to find the water resonance vs ppm is relevant because probably that will be the best frequency to tune…

 i have a some of 25x25mm I cores i may be able to put 6 around a cell and form a kind of square pot core..

inside the inner electrode there could also be some ferrite…

another solution would be to use some steel core for toroids and role around the cell… the pemeability is smaller than ferrite but the saturation much higher…

or maybe a set of toroidal magnets thin enough so they can be pressed agains each other with reverse polarities as to force some fields into water 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 17:21:01 pm by sebosfato »

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2023, 07:19:33 am »
The whole point having a matched impedance is to be able to keep the thing under control …. for that we have the gating

the returning mention of meyer to the resistance and using a resistive wire may be related to being able to control this reflections but it can be perfectly done adding a resistor externally to tune for the impedance such as to get it more under control… the fact that he needs a resistor is another thing that indicates that the line impedance is smaller than the cell!!!

so some mismatch is desirable if as we discussed the z is lower than loads..

I revisited the tech brief looking for ppm and stan clearly states he uses rain or natural water from 1ppm distilled 4ppm rain and 20ppm natural water… city water goes from 78 on summer to 150 on winter here in São Paulo due to water treatment i guess

So the cell will not be a small resistance at least … but will still be a small impedance if we don’t manage to increase its inductance somehow..

today i learned more about skin effect and why hollow conductors are often used for antenas.. i wonder if with an iron core the antena reception or transmission would get improved… somehow the linear inductance would change… or would only it give a different impedance?

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2023, 06:28:49 am »
I'm not sure I understand why you refer to the water cell as having an inductance.  Since the water cell is either a resistor or a capacitor, neither of these have an inductive property.

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2023, 07:41:49 am »
The cell is a coaxial capacitor

A coax, a parallel plate or a wire length will have inductance

Normaly is a factor of 1 ur but when you add iron goes to 100 and ferrite can go upper

I'm talking about it because impedance is calculate as the ratio of inductance and capacitance per unity length

So like a coaxial cable have a characteristic impedance when we plug the water cell sizes and water dielectric value you get the impedance

Now If we add iron or ferrite to a turn of wire it will increase its inductance

What I'm saying is that the way to raise the cell impedance is to give the cell an inductive property!!!

I calculated it to be  around 2.7 ohms

But if we add some crazy high ur ferrite it can go very much higher than that!

I wanted to point about this because is not really obvious

I took years to understand in this way I'm explaining to you..

I think on the cell all is needed to increase the impedance is feed one electrode from bottom and the other from up like the patent shows.. having a core around it

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Re: Back to Basics
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2023, 07:47:48 am »
I'm pretty sure Ronnie did not do this...