Example of Stan's VIC Transformer with 180* Phase Shift

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I did some testing today, the only time I can get that waveform is when I don't have the cell hooked to the vic.

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I have a question about inductors in series and voltage/current phase.  It seems to me that inductors in series shouldn't mean that the voltage would go out of phase an additional 90 degrees for each coil in series.  Case in point is a tapped transformer.  There really should be no reason for a single tapped transformer to put the phase out by 180 degrees.  Does this make sense?  If not, please explain or provide supporting links.

Thanks
 
TS

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You are right, If inductors are in series this wont mean they are 90° of each other...

I will try to explain to you...

If you have two coupled inductors with same inductance, and you connect them in series, there is two possibilities, or you connect them adding the fields, in this case the inductance value will be 4x greater, or you subtract and in this case you almost kill all the inductance of both coils, in this case it will not become zero because not aways all the fields are completely coupled.

-this means that in the first case the voltages of both coils adds up... In the second case the voltages cancel each other and sums to zero...

Your question, is the question of many here...

90° what it is?

An inductor is known as a mean to make voltage lead current... Now what this mean... If you apply a voltage in a circuit having an inductor in series, across the inductor initially there will be the applied volts as long as the current start flowing a voltage opposite to that applied appears across the inductor canceling the applied voltage.
If you apply this voltage across the inductor, first you will get zero current and when the current reach its maximum the voltage should become zero...

So Voltage leads current. Inductors have their higher voltage across its leads when there is a maximum rate of change in current...

The amount of phase° it will give to a signal will depends on how big is the inductor, the frequency and impedance of the circuit...

But if you get two coupled coils they can only have two configurations possible, or 0° (positive cosine) Adding, or 180° (negative cosine) subtracting...is scalar product...
 
At resonance at the inductor the voltage leads current by 90°... this is correct... and in the capacitor the current leads voltage 90°, because it will reach its maximum voltage when current is zero or finally stops in one direction. This is cross product...

If you have a tapped transformer, and you get the coils in the same direction, you get 0° between its output leads or maximum voltage... If the secondaries were subtracting than you get the signals 180° or zero volts out... This don't mean there is zero volts across the secondaries, the volts still there but both secondaries ends in this case are at the same time or positive or negative. so no volts between the leads... only alternating potential...

I could be confusing you on the phase stuff and i can be wrong in definition, so i tell you the definition its not even relevant, the important is to understand what is happening...

If i understood well tony was saying the 180 sums and 0° subtracts... not sure, for me depends on what you are talking about... hwr he might be right...

Try to get a book... you will see its not a 7 head beast.

To be able to understand what stan did you get to know more than he knew about this stuff so remains no doubt to you and you can go on further.

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Hello maybe this could help...

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/buck-xfmr.htm

This explain how a bucking transformer reduces the potential applied instead of simply transforming the voltage by transforming action... which makes the secondary load current to not pass thru the primary directly... This reduce the size, cost and weight of the transformer...
This reduction takes place when a negative voltage is added in series... so no power is consumed simply the potential is diminished....

 

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Fabio, let me explain to you why all this phase relation and stuff mean very little in the scheme of things. Consider the potential of a negative -12V in relation to a positive +12V. It will measure @ 24V. A potential of positive +24V in relation to a 0V or ground is still 24V and will measure again @ 24V. I could say the glass is half full, while, others may say it is half empty... Does it matter?

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Hi Bubz,

I agree with you... 24v=+12v+(-12v ) If you consider only difference of potential... This is a simple sum of the magnitudes of those vectors...and agree that the phases is the last of our problem here... I'm counting only adding or subtracting... assuming all the signals are synchronized...

What i'm insisting, is that if you take a +12 signal and in series with it you have a -12 signal at the end you get exactly 0, because this cancel out the potentials...

If you get two batteries and connect their negative sides together and try to measure the voltage across the positive leads, you get 0 volts if both batteries had the exact same voltage...

If this is not true all the electronics books are wrong, and there is no equilibrium.

Meyer had both chokes canceling each other so the only voltage difference applied to the cell is the secondary voltage... thats all i'm saying...

If you have a choke opposing the field of the other connected in series their voltages don't sum it up, you only subtract one signal from the other... I'm clearly saying what many already concluded before... meyer seems to not be applying high voltage across the water... only across the circuit components...

Thereto the chokes are there to only apply high voltage potential, which is not consumed in and electronic circuit if electrons are not allowed to flow... Charged voltage zones...

Can you see the difference?

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Chokes do what chokes do... They choke the current, keeping it from running away just as in certain light circuits. The chokes allow us to raise the voltage levels without the increase in current. and as current increases, voltage decreases. The chokes will not stop current so much as they keep it from increasing as fast without the coils.

Try running a typical electrolysis cell at 80V and then measure the cell during operation. You will notice a huge voltage drop and a rising current. Add any random sized choke or chokes to the circuit and measure again during operation. This time you will see a less drop in voltage, plus, the current will only rise to a certain level, lower than normal, and maintain that level rather than increase with a heating runaway effect.

One of the effects, due to the higher voltages, the gasses evolved from the process have more of a tendency to stay in a mono-atomic state and or ionized. It also takes much less energy to ionize mono-atomic particles than it is stable molecules in a ground state.

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Chokes choke certain peaks/changes in power.
Bubz, the bifilar chokes have also a capacitance, which work as a capacitor.
This capacitor can/must release its charge in a form of many amps at a very low voltage or vica versa.
If water has a resistance of 80ohms, you can do the math.