Hi Steve and Cowboyrx,
in the post above wouter
quote
The 101 plate cell together with Bob's Hex controller is said to produce up to 100lpm at low amps but we still could not verify this. end
Well as you know we here have not either, well here is some of the quotes that may be of interest, you can view them all at the
http://waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=531.0Now whether this will help I do not know, I doubt it, still I will try it again when the board is repaired, this is nearly done, and the 'new separate board' is partly done, one choke wound. I have to have both ready for the test as the 'cell' is some distance away from me at Ian's. I hope to do some tests here later.
well I would like to here some comments on the 'quotes'
aussepom
From Bob Boyce
I will top-post here due to the length of the quoted text below.
I simply do not have the time to read all of Patrick Kellys document(s) to see what is or is not disclosed. I have written so much over the years, at so many forums, that there is no way that I can tell you where every little bit of my information is published. But one thing is certain... I have disclosed everything related to my resonance drive systems, at least once, if not more, in the various sites that I post at. Patrick Kelly, after asking my permission of course, took it upon himself to attempt a compilation of my information. He did not ask for compensation from you or anyone else for this monumental task. As far as I am concerned, he did an excellent job. From time to time, it is brought to our attention that there is an error or omission, and that is corrected by Patrick, hence the continual updates he makes.
I can tell you this. The cell is not a capacitor, no matter how much you want it to be one. It is a load, one that we dissipate power into, in order to liberate a unique form of hydroxy gas. It may have some capacitance, as many loads do, but that has nothing to do with the sort of resonance that my system employs.
The resonance of the primaries has nothing to do with the frequencies (intervals) used. You are trying to compare sinewave (transverse) resonance at specific frequencies, to compression wave (longitudinal) energy. It cannot match due to the propagation velocity differences between the two types of energy. This is because compression wave energy flows at a much higher speed than that of transverse energy. Please try to ignore your traditional education when attempting to understand this technology. It has nothing to do with transverse electromagnetic waves, and everything to do with the compression waves of potential shock waves as they flow through the bi-metallic skin of the winding conductors. The behavior of the compression waves in the primary windings are directly related to the longitudinal wavelength of the wire vs the pulse widths of applied potential. Therefore, you will quickly discover that excess pulse width is a very bad thing when trying to get the maximum amount of energy gain from input power vs output power. At extremely short pulse widths, I have had input to output gains in excess of 200 X magnification. Tesla himself claimed to have reach 100 X gain in his magnifying transmitter at very low power levels as well. My improvements upon his technology should allow me to hit as much as 300 X magnification, but I have yet to see that much. I am still working at it of course.
The operating voltage of the 100 cell unit is typically in the 150 to 160 volt range. In a low leakage unit, the current SHOULD be about 200 mA, but yours may be higher or lower due to differences in leakage currents. We do NOT want electrolysis to occur, as this will interfere with the resonance. Primary current (all 3 combined) should not exceed 200 mA as well. In my own HexController unit, with very accurate windings, primary current does not exceed 10 mA. Of course the PWM3F or PWM3G will not offer the same performance levels (PWM3G is closest) as the HexController, but they are able to show gains of up to 3 X to 5 X if operated at minimum pulse width. By the way, minimum pulse width is determined by the minimum pulse width of channel 3 (10.7 khz repetition rate), and the other channels are to be set to exactly the same pulse width. Primary windings will require adjustment to match that pulse width. There was a reason I made a relatively simple calculation method for determining the number of turns for the primaries based upon secondary turns and cell idle current. It only takes 1 turn of error to make a big difference in performance, 2 turns of error will result in no joy. It's like tuning an antenna, if the VSWR is too high, the impedance mismatch will destroy the effectiveness of the antenna. This is no different, as it is an antenna array of sorts, just not electromagnetic in nature.
Bob Boyce
Quote from: aussepom on February 27, 2009, 02:50:40 PM
Hi Bob, Mr Rowland and others
Thankyou WouterFuel for creating this thread.
Yes the cell was set up and all the procedures was strictly followed
{ The only time 4 amps is used is during the cleansing phase, during which time the cells are not connected to the toroidal power system. After that, the conditioning phase, which is done for at least several days, running at about 1 amp, and again, the cells are not connected to the toroid power system.}
{ Only when operated during resonance, (after cleanse and conditioning are completed) is the toroidal power system connected. At that time, entraining potential current through the cell stack is in the few hundred milliamps range. }
How many hundreds?
Or do we follow Mr Rowland?
{ Now instead of the approx. 2vdc per cell the voltage is set at 1.5vdc per cell. With your 100 cell unit operating at 150vdc the amps will (or should be) be much lower.}
and what ever the current is at that stage would be ok??
None of this type of information is in the D9, that every one seems to take as 'the gospel'
Once the board is repaired and re-setup, will follow like to follow an option
{ The primary current to all three toroid primaries combined is no more than a few hundred milliamps TOTAL! }
Our coil
Toroid P1 = 996uH, 0.319 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance, at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 10.7khz Z = 66.96 ohms,
13.8 / 66.96 = 206mA
Toroid P2 = 992uH, 0.323 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance, at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 21.4khz Z = 133.38 ohms
13.8 / 133.38 = 103mA
Toroid P3 = 992uH, 0.323 ohms (DC resistance)
Impedance, at 100hz = 0.703. at the working 42.8khz Z = 267.57ohms
13.8 / 267.57 = 51.5mA
Total calculated milliamps by the three primaries = 360.5mA
Measured Total current after set up was 320mA this was as far as I was prepared to take it at that stage.
How I see things
So if at any time during the setting of the pulse widths this when any where near 500 to 800mA it was backed off. If you are not aware of this you can during this tuning you can send the Mosfets into 'full on mode', when this happens, the coil is no longer getting pulses just straight DC, and acts accordingly, the 'time on' period will 'see the DC resistance only' so do the sums
Max that could be draw in this 'period of on time' is 13.8 / 0.319 for P1 = 43.2 amps FOR THAT TIME DURATION THAT PULSE IT IS ON FOR. That for these 510's is too much and before you can blink it is blown.
This is why I have said to the 'learners' put the heavier Mosfets in with the coil open, so that you can get the 'feel' of the setting up procedure. You can then fit the 510's when you are happy with your results
Why was not something like this stated in the D9, or by you Bob?
Pin five will give you the out put of the oscillator, set this first, on all three 556's with the frequency pots. R24, R 26, R28
Show pic of this
You can monitor the 'with pulse' on pin nine of the 556, as you then adjust the pot you will see the pulse start to increase.
Show pic of this
You must have done this Bob, Or you Mr Roland, simple thing like this help us all understand.
{ the toroid windings ideally should be wound for opposite spin in the southern hemisphere. This would mean winding CCW going CW, and the 3 phases would be reversed in direction for CW clocking. This is to compensate for the reverse earths magnetic field south of the equator. Having it wound and connected for northern hemisphere will still work, but at a loss of production. }
This has not been mentioned any where to my knowledge, if it was posted some where then please point me to the post.
Mr Rowland quote
{ if you are using 204vdc@4amps to get only 4+ LPM I think you may have some leakage between cells. A well cleansed and conditioned pack (without the high end tronix) should do more LPM.}
Well I do not think that there is any leakage, however there is one thing that could account for this, and I will ask Ian to check this before we do the next test.
The 'elite mixture' percentage may be to low, but I am sure he has it correct but I will ask him, if this is lower than Bob used then it would account for the low output at 4amps.
What is the required percentage amount, or the grams per litre, that you used or recommend.?
I just want to double check this with you.
Our 'Cell' calculated at 100hz was 350uf, the measured at 390uf at 35 d C (95F) all our checks are done at this temperature.
The 'Natural resonance' of our series circuit is 102hz. With a total DC resistance at this Rof (resonance) of 1.23ohms.
I have not found that any one has posted a set of pic 'as it was tuned' similar to me, whether they are correct or not, there is even the part of a 'faulty connection with a Mosfet'.
I would like to compare our toroid coil information, that I have posted with the one that you have Bob, the results should be similar. Or if any one else has any info similar would be welcomed.
I hope to repair the board and re set it up for another test, any information is welcomed that will hell test this project.
sorry I would have like to do shading but not sure how.
aussepom
