Author Topic: Just trying to recreate the waveform  (Read 19784 times)

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Just trying to recreate the waveform
« on: January 26, 2008, 20:49:41 pm »
I have moved this to here as I realised it was in the wrong place. ;D

I was sitting watching the TV last night and this idea came to me as I said in the posting above to use duplication of some of the components so that you have more than one waveform hitting the cell out of phase with each other.
Also some people seem to think the choke in the negative is not so important.
Anyway here is a doodle I have put together this afternoon, I thought maybe try pulsing the positive instead of the negative all the time so maybe a P-channel FET.
I also had a look at DOG's posting about the inhibiting resistor.
"Electron Inhibiting resistor is simply any resistance that stops the flow to ground (As I understand it). I have used resistance values from 10 Mega Ohms to 1 Ohm. Simply stated, as you increase resistance on the negative side of the tube, the voltage across the tube increases. Of course, this only works when you have the blocking diode and choke on the positive side (driven by a transformer). "


You could have both of the 555 oscillators with the same frequency components and just set one at a harmonic of the other it could be worth an experiment just add a 6 position switch instead of the 3.
I have just guessed at the biasing resistors and used what Lawton had but adapted the set up for P-channel, the problem is to turn a P channel on may take a negative voltage I don't know if just 0V potential will turn it on. :-\
As you can change the mark space ratio on the Lawton 555 set up there should be no problem there.

As to the chokes maybe keep them separate and not bifilar at all. :-\

0 Volts will turn on the P channel FET so have ordered some for a play with.

Also when I used to make H-Bridge drivers I always used a 10K resistor to stop a FET from switching to an indeterminate state so have changed the 2 x 820R resistors that Lawton had to 10K, and many of the DATA SHEETS say feed these FET’s direct
From an IC so I have also removed the 220R from the 555 pin 3 to the FET gate.

See H-Bridge motor driver with N & P channel FET's

Maybe switching the supply ON and OFF on the positive side of the cell/capacitor and via 2 separate feeds and oscillators will give that voltage spike on the waveform you are after.


Anyway this afternoon I got my scope out and an old NAND gate oscillator I made for an other project a few years ago.
So hooked it up to the cell to see what it gave me, and here is the waveform.
It is just pulsing the 12v as does the lawton but only 1 oscillator.

It got me thinking the top part of your square wave has a ripple but it is only a slight ripple maybe a few volts compared to the 13.8 V or what ever you get from you rectified 3 phase.
So that means that this ripple frequency depends of the revs of the alternator and in turn the engine. The only constant thing is the square wave you are creating out of this rectified voltage, and that is different for each cell design am I right?

So this means that the lawton CCT fails because it still pulses the whole voltage during the top of the square wave.
So the idea I have above could be modified so the 2 waves are in sink but applied to each other at different voltages after being switched by separate FET's as I said.
So this means that both waves still need to be in sync to work.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 23:17:19 pm by hydrocars »

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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2008, 23:03:47 pm »
Hi oddball,

Nice out of the box thinking.
Are you gonna make a circuit and do some tests with it?
If so, please try to keep a bookkeeping of the resultsish them.

I can tell that Bob Boyce had positive results with multi frequency's.
The pulse that Hydro and I have is derived of the tests with the alternator setup.
This is where Stanley meyer started with. He had positive results and nothing indicates that your path is the right one. Do not understand me wrong here. I really like people thinking out of the box.
Why? Because all normal road are already walkd on.

So, build your setup and let us know. If we can help you, just ask.



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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2008, 00:25:30 am »
Yes I know what you mean Stevie thanks.

I have been looking over your stuff and can see were you are going with some of it now.
I can see the alternator is a hard thing to beat in terms of it's output but I thought I saw you are trying to make a solid-state version but are not yet showing your ideas.
I think I saw a decade counter but if you are just trying to re-create that wave there must be simpler ways.
However I see your plan is low volts and higher current as well so if you have an AC source with a lot of amps already in the car it is stupid not to use it. :D

However I have a few ideas that I would like to use the cell for besides to run a car so a way to do it from DC but without an alternator and get good gas for low power would be good. ::) 

Anyway both my cars are Suzuki one based on an old SJ413 so I believe the alternators are a favourite for conversion.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 00:32:40 am by oddball »


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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2008, 17:36:35 pm »
Here is a variation on the same theme using your 3 phase idea, I think I will give this one a go for fun ;D

I have ordered 4 x 11 amp  P-channel FETS on eBay and have a bag full of high power N-channels so the rest of it is just a few £'s worth, apart from the transformer I suppose you guys have found a source for that or are custom making them.
At a push I could just mess about with 3 standard transformers.
My thoughts were still try something different and see what happens, the idea is to set up harmonics of the 3 frequencies, then just PWM it at the end with an N-channel to make a square wave with a load of harmonics on the top. :-X

If the harmonic on the top of the square wave is from the RPM of the alternator and that is good at 3000 rpm then 3Khz for osc A, 3.5kHz for B and say 4khz for C but there is plenty of room to adjust each one.
I am opting to try with the NOR gate after comparing the Lawton 555 system with it on the scope, in my opinion the Lawton has too big a gap between pulses but it could have the components changed to fix the mark space (well that is how it looked to me).
Also there are 4 gates in each IC so only 2 chips are needed.
Much of the work is probably being done just by the higher current and the ripple may just be a bonus as may be the switching spike at the start of each pulse.

EDIT This CCT is being modified day to day and this diagram will update at this location!(
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 10:32:33 am by oddball »

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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2008, 22:45:26 pm »
Hi oddball,

There are many different theorys about making a 3 phase system. Yours is a good attempt. But not perfect , yet.
The trafo will be very important. Also the way you drive it.....(hint)

Also the volts is stil an issue ( for me).
In theory is 2 volts the best way to go, will not get enough amps in with 2 volts!
Unless you start to use chemicals.

Have you ever run tests with a WFC with different volt levels?
If not, please go and try this. Make notes of the volts and amps...
You will see that the resistance will be different, if you step up voltage.

So, what will do that to your theory?
You want amps? then you need volts as well......

Have fun!
Go run the test!



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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2008, 00:26:38 am »
oddball that circuit is great! get rid of the fet bewteen the transformer and the wfc, it serves no purpus.

Lets compare your circuit to the alternator oddball.

with the alternator you hook a fet between the output secondary and input primary, you do this to regulate the power driving primary side. if you was to use no regulator the alternators output would be to much.

but the alternator is spinning, wich you have replicated with a electronic chip. if you vary the amount of regulation just right DEPENDING ON WHAT FREQ YOU USE you will get HARMONICS.

so to get harmonics, you have to FIND THE RIGHT FREQUENCY, then you have to DRIVE WITH THE PROPER Amplitude. i know this is confusing and i am sorry, it even confuses me. if you still dont understand i will try to go into further detail.

Keep up the good work, thats the most effort i've seen with this circuit so far!


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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2008, 00:32:01 am »
if you have the alternator spinning, you can take its output and power the alternators rotor(input) with it, THIS IS ONLY TRUE BECAUSE THE ALTERNATOR SPINS.

however, ("you've replicated the Spinning part") with a circuit. ("IF") YOU USE THE PROPER TRANSFORMER, you can hook its ouput to its input to power the primary side of the transformer, but you have to find the ("right transformer") before it will work!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 00:43:49 am by hydrocars »


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Re: Just trying to recreate the waveform
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2008, 11:19:07 am »
Thanks guys all good points! :-*

I was just looking at the waveform and thinking how to replicate it, hence the last N-channel to add the pulse and spike. As I said I think the current seems to be your main winning point with this but on all the designs I have seen and heard about they always tend to have a sharp square wave as part of the system so I drew one in. :)

The other thing is I see that a coating of lime scale builds up on the cathode/ negative of the cell walls and this is an insulator so if you do not have a pulsing component you may lose your gas over time.

It is an easy step to take the last N-channel out with a switch if it serves no purpose but for a test set probably not much harder to have it there for a starting point.
In terms of the voltage I bow to your months of testing experience so if this means we need different windings on the transformer for one phase/ frequency so be it.
I may also have some ideas about having higher voltages out of phase with lower voltages.

Like all of us I just want to get results there are too many Ravi's etc keeping things to them selves but apparently doing nothing. :(

On a lighter note I have all the qualifications I need to do this, I have seen the film CHAIN REACTION 4 times and was born the same day and year as  Keanu Reeves so what more do I need DUDE? ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 11:35:13 am by oddball »