Author Topic: WFC VIC  (Read 290118 times)

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #248 on: March 11, 2011, 01:45:16 am »
here are some of the circuits that I have almost complete and ready for testing. Pictured below are the Resonant Scanning Circuit and Pulse Indicator Circuit.
(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Pulse_Indicator_Circuit_top.jpg)

(http://www.globalkast.com/images/tonywoodside/Resonant_Scanning_Circuit_top.jpg)

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #249 on: March 11, 2011, 03:51:31 am »
I also used a capacitor like that for my resonant scanning circuit =)

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #250 on: March 11, 2011, 03:53:13 am »
Quote
I made the core out of a microwave transformer core..
IMHO this core is not really usable for this application, for the laminations are way too thick (as it's designed for 60Hz). You will get too much eddy currents at the proposed frequencies and therefore will have too many losses, which will result in a small q-factor.
As I already mentioned before: If you wanna take a laminated steel core, the laminations have to be thin. Just look at Stans steel-core: There the laminations were also thin. But I think also, that a Ferrite-core is probably a simpler solution. The main difference is, that the steel-core has much higher saturation values, but a smaller permeability, whereas for ferrite, this is usually the opposite (high permeability, low saturation)


Quote
How much energy in watts  per hour (or joules) needed to spend to convert 1 liter of water in gas? I am interested in the efficiency of the cell.
Ahh, BTW. I just remembered, that Stan himself calculated the efficiency of his early cell in the independent evaluation report. There he calculated something like an efficiency factor of 300 times (input vs output).

Quote
I used 3 4007 diodes in parallel and work fine in the vic...
I absolutely wouldn't recommend using any 1N400X in any power switching supply. They are intended mainly as rectifier diodes for mains applications (60Hz). Their switching time is about 1000 times slower than that of a MUR.
Why not using UF400X diodes, if money is short. They are also quite cheap, and much faster. Or did you already use the UF-types?


EDIT:

I finally found now some time to have another short look at the original VIC-board.
A few things are interesting.
First, it is really exactly the circuit from the patent (WO9207861).
Second. The designer of the board made a layout error. The primary driving circuit, as it is in the patent is correct. But the board layout is wrong. The two resistors for the first transistor are connected the wrong way around. Therefore Stan had to wire the VCO-Out directly to the correct resistor.

I already thought it very strange, that Stan added these dividers for the PLL-Signal in the patent circuit. As this wouldn't make any sense, to divide the signal here, as the pickup-signal and the driving signal have the same frequency. But as can be seen on the original board, he didn't use them. He just used them to divide the signal down for display on the LED, for nothing else...
One thing is still strange. Namely that he wired the neg of the primary over an RC-damper to the comparator input.  First I thought he wired it to the VCO-out, but it only looks like that on first sight (quite hard to differentiate the two blue wires).
Finally one could say, that today, one would really just replace almost the complete board by just one microcontroller. Only the Pickup-Signal, and some driving circuitry would be additionally needed. The driving of the primary one would most probably do with a FET and some special FET-driver-IC (much simpler, than this cascade of transistors).

SIR,
from my analysis of the control circuits figs 2 thru 11, i have used multisim student edition to try and determine the component values that were in the circuits... i came up with some very interesting scope simulations at the WFC.

the figs 2, 3 &4 would take the variable duty cycle input from the accelerator and produce a variable voltage from a configurable low value for idle , say 3 volts to a maximum of say 12 volts across the range of the throttle pedal. this was done using a darlington pair at the high side of the primary

the clock cycle was the interesting part as to how it timed the high side of the coil as well as the low side thru the pll

the result was the q9 (tip120) would fire at the same time as the darlington pair on the positive side of the coil...made for some interesting waveforms...i have those files if anyone would like to view them...

could never really figure out the scanning circuit.... got a triangle waveform that would give a gradually increasing voltage fed to the vco of the 4046 to vary the lock in frequencies...

also the pickup circuit could be eiether a opamp or a comparator... i guess the comparator would stabilize the signal to something useable for pin 14 of the PLL chip

any thoughts?

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #251 on: March 11, 2011, 03:55:52 am »
here are some of the circuits that I have almost complete and ready for testing. Pictured below are the Resonant Scanning Circuit and Pulse Indicator Circuit.


would you mind posting the schematics for those boards??

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #252 on: March 11, 2011, 03:57:58 am »
yea look at this thread, i have the schematic posted for the pulse indicator circuit and the signal and how it works.
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?topic=1943.5

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #253 on: March 11, 2011, 09:59:37 am »
Quote
also the pickup circuit could be eiether a opamp or a comparator... i guess the comparator would stabilize the signal to something useable for pin 14 of the PLL chip
any thoughts?



The OpAmp is just used as a Schmitt-Trigger. If the voltage from the pickup-coil is positive, it will output a high signal. If it's negative, it will output a low signal for the PLL. With the 1M/100K feedback you adjust the hysteresis.

Edit:
It's interesting. As I looked again at the original VIC-PCB, I discovered, that not even the LED is connected to the dividers. The LED is directly connected to the signal (the orange/white wire on the bottom left). This actually means, that the 3 divider chips were not used at all.

It's also funny to note, that it seems the Inhibit signal, that's coming in from the external control, seems to have a different voltage level. Therefore he needed to add a level translator (Pullup with a germanium diode, in the lower left).

Edit2:
Seems like the server is having some real problems, the last few days, or is it just me?

I thought again about the strange feedback wiring into the comparator of the PLL, that Stan made (the second blue wire). IMHO there's only one good explanation for this workaround, and why he didn't connect the output of the VCO to the comparator input (like it is usally done, and like in the patent pic). He uses quite a transistor cascade. If the driving delay is too big, then the comparator would already see quite some phase differences between this signal and the pickup-signal. Like that e.g. the Lock-in detector could then detect a not locked-position, although the resonance frequency is hit. If you connect directly the driving voltage of the primary to the comparator, then you certainly get rid of this transistor driving signal delay.
But on the other hand, one must remember, that the voltage on the primary can get quite strongly negative if the VIC is in resonance (it can't get a high positive voltage, due to the freewheeling diode). So this voltage would somehow have to be clamped. Surely the CDs do have internal clamping diodes, but I'm not sure if they could withstand this amount of current, as there's only a quite small resistor in series.
So either the green thing, which looks like a capacitor is a capacitor and is just filtering the input a bit, or it is a varistor. In the first case, the CDs internal diode would have to clamp the signal, but the signal is filtered. in the other case the varistor would do the clamping, but there wouldn't be a filtering.
It's also to mention that this workaround is not really very proper, as it can in some circumstances yield quite some problems in the working of the comparator, as the voltage on the primary could also have some higher harmonics. If he really did it because of the delay, then an usual delay network would probably have been the better solution.


Edit3:
As I thought again about it, I came to the conclusion that it's most probably is a capacitor. For if he really wanted to clamp it additionally he would've taken a diode.


Edit4:
After having some more time to look at the VIC-PCB and do some power-routing coloring I finally realized, that there was no layout mistake. I just thought this at first, but it misled me, that Stan used to wire the gating signal over the connection port and not directly on the PCB. But not to have to wire it externally it seems, that he decided to wire it directly on the PCB by the blue wire.
I'm still asking myself, where exactly the red wire is connected (the one which is connected to the RC-Damper which is the input for the comparator). But it's now past midnight...I will look again at it tomorrow.
If anyone is interested, this is my "modified" version of the VIC-PCB-pic. I take no responsibility for any errors  ;D   (especially the power routing around the driving circuit and the analog voltage is a bit weird, there could well be some errors in my pic, and overall the coloring of the power routing is not yet complete!)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9059/meyerspics69powerroutin.jpg)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 00:36:22 am by Kali_ma_Amar »

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #254 on: March 14, 2011, 02:01:54 am »
Here is the complete figure 8 as verified by signal analysis in Multisim based on components from the photo
( it puts out the required sawtooth waveform... accept NO substitutes... this part is LOCKED DOWN folks!)
Yahoo !

working on a complete multisim circuit for Vic Card photo will post work in progress soon

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #255 on: March 14, 2011, 21:15:33 pm »
Ali,the VCC for Stans VIC circuit was 12 volts and VDD was 5 volts.The first two resistors are 220k and the cap is 10uF.
Don
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 22:09:17 pm by Dynodon »