WFC VIC

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Looking forward to scopeshots.
So the current induced in the chokes do counter the current from the secondary?

Kali, how did you obtain your SS wire? Can you miss some?

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So the current induced in the chokes do counter the current from the secondary?

This only looks like that on the first sight. But you have to remember the parasitic capacities. Therefore the current of the chokes can flow, no matter what the secondary does. The secondary can only help the resonant circuit, namely if its voltage is higher than the resonant voltage. Therefore it is so important, that the secondary will output a + on the diode side, when the resonant circuit will also have a + there. Then the secondary can charge the cap even more. If you would do it the other way round, you couldn't do that and would even discharge the resonant circuit.  Therefore in this arrangement both of their flow will add (into the parasitic capacity) and not subtract. And due to the subtraction of voltages (not current), there won't be a big "resistive" current flow through the WFC, which would only waste power and then counteract the current flow as you indicated. Hmm, doesn't make really sense, does it? Well, let's try it later. I go back experimenting...

Kali, how did you obtain your SS wire? Can you miss some?

Actually I got my wire, quite some time ago, from a guy from Canada, back in the overunity forum. He called himself Dankie. Why do you need some? It's actually pretty expensive. I paid several hundred dollars...
For the normal WFC circuit it is obviously not needed...


Edit:
So back from some more testing, with a bit more input voltage.  This time I used a separate core with a step up of 1:40 from 12V, which means about 500 volts on the coils.
Now I realized something, that I already saw before at 10volts, but was not certain what it was. Now, I realized what it was:
During the process the resonant frequency really changes all the time. Sometimes it does make some real jumps. At first I just observed, that the current sometimes just makes jumps. I had no idea why. This current jumping was even more extreme with the 500volts at the coils. But then I realized why the current jumps up and down: The resonant frequency changes and therefore the current goes up. Even at 500volts at the coils I can get to 0.xmA readings if the frequency is hit, but this is quite difficult doing manually, what I am still doing, as I still have this crude 8xA setup and don't use yet my special controller.


I also discovered another thing:
The gating does decrease the needed amperage extremely, and far beyond any logic. Just introducing some off gating reduced the needed current much more, than would be logical just by pure mathematics. E.g. if I have 6on and 2 off gating, it needs about 50times less current than the case, when I have no gating?!?
Does your circuit also behave like that Don?

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Kalli,


Maybe the jumps you mean happens cause of saturation of the core, therefore reducing the inductance and suddenly changing the resonant frequency.. could be other things too..

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@Sebosfato:
Yes, that would make really sense, thank you for this argument. It would also explain the gating current differences. But the strange thing is, in a minor version this also happened, when I had 10 volts on the core, where it surely didn't saturate the core.
And I could see clearly with the 500volts on it, that I can get down to almost no current, but then immediately the current again starts to drift slowly away. But if I then adjust the frequency I again get almost no current, and then again the current drifts away. IMHO this observation wouldn't really match the behaviour due to a core saturation.

Kali, yes the red dots you applied are the correct way.Thats just how all my testing of coils ended up,that gave me the highest output of voltage.I tried arranging the coils in every configuration possible,but that arrangement always gave the highest voltage output.
 
Stan showed several different drawings with different coil arrangements,so one of them was bound to be right.

Actually, now I'm a bit puzzled. Why did you test different configurations to look for which yields the highest voltage, if you saw how the real 5-coil-VIC was wired? As I understood, you looked on the real 5-coil-VIC, how exactly it was wired to everything. Or were these tests, before you saw the real VIC?


For as I already mentioned, there do exist 2 circuits which can yield high voltages: One with different polarities to the cell (the one from the patent pic posted before), and one with the same polarities to the cell. And before you mentioned that the real VIC was wired with different polarities, I would have been 90% sure, that it is wired with the same polarities to the cell. But in the setup with the same polarities to the cell it is much more difficult to get the resonant voltage rise, without needing a lot of current in the beginning.
IMHO 4 things would speak strongly for the second variant:
1.) In all available drawings where Stan actually showed the bifilars (only 3), they were wired with the same polarity to the cell.
2.) It would IMHO only make sense, if he really wound the 6-1 VIC bifilar, that then they had the same polarity to the cell. Otherwise the high voltage would have just ripped their isolation.
3.) The resistive wire for the choke coils IMHO only makes sense in this version. And this only, if the WFC itself has a high resistance (is small, like the injectors)
4.) You would actually see a pulse doubling over the cell.

But there surely also do speak things against this variant...(e.g. in this variant it would be beneficial if the circuit is grounded)

Just for better understanding: This is the wiring version which would also make sense:
(http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/3347/fullmeyerbriefsamepolar.gif)
But although both chokes are called here resonant charging chokes, actually only the second (62) would be resonating, not the top one, as they would have different resonant frequencies, due to different capacities seen. And one would be only interested in a resonance of the second choke, as this would then stop the current from flowing from the secondary through the cell.

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What would also makes sense is if the 56 or tx4 choke is made of resistive wire or at least a wire with smaller gauge so you can induce a higher voltage in it cause of the resonance of the tuned coil.


Maybe the jumps could be than related to what meyer said about inconsistencies of the water and called i think out of resonant conditions witch the pll should take over and correct the frequency immediately. Maybe is one of the reasons for the gating...


I think the 62 is a tuned "resonant" choke and 56 a charging choke. 

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Is your water temperature stable when you're having spikes? It has an impact on the dielectric properties of water and would change your resonant frequency, ... as would the type of water as Sebosfato indicated ...

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It's just a small bowl with 2 SS plates. I don't think there will be any such temperature changes.


@Sebosfato:
I already thought the same, that then, it could make sense, that only one coil is resistive. But I would have gone for the other one. For then, the DC charge from the secondary would fully drop across the lower choke, which would charge the resonant capacity. On the other hand, having a big resistance in a resonating circuit is not what you wanna have...
I made a few tests, back now, with the same polarity to the cell.
In this setup the voltage can already get higher than the input voltage (which is not the case, for the other configuration, which is limited by the input voltage). Here I get about +-50volt swings with an input of 10volts.
The problem with this setup is the strong DC current while the input voltage is coming in.
It is logical, that if you put a resistance in between the diode and the first choke, all the voltage will drop across it. Therefore there's almost no more voltage resonating on the coils. It just obviously lowers your current. Also if you have a high resistance in the upper part, then the circuit is hindered in feeding additionally your resonating capacity, therefore you won't get high resonating voltages anymore.
But it's interesting, that if you put a resistance in between  your neg input and the second coil, it will obviously again drop your DC current but it will not influence much your resonating voltage. If you go to the extreme, then you simply disconnect the second choke coil here (resistance infinity) and it will still resonate like a charm, but as no DC current can't flow anymore it needs almost no more current. Why is this possible?
The coil itself has a capacity to the environment, as the WFC has. Therefore the charge is always going from the WFC to the coil and vice versa. Without having the coil connected on the other side.
I would call this a top fed Tesla-coil  , in relation to the usually known bottom fed Tesla-coil. For in this example you feed the top, when the input voltage is coming in.

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Then you get something different from resonance, or the only possibility is if it was very very high frequency to be able to explore this kind of capacitances. I'm pretty sure it wont work if you don't use the resonance.

If the resonating coil is resistive you will only waste a lot of power. You know that. But the other as you only want voltage field benefits to have resistive wire..


I have good news i got my circuit now working properly now, the gate circuit is fine after some re-solderings didn't changed anything... It has from 1% to 100% duty cycle adjust and vary in a range of frequency witch i don't know what is cause i don't have a frequency meter.


Now the pulses are exactly what stan showed in the patent. The circuit in the patent connecting the nor gate to the inhibit of the pll makes that you can use the duty cycle to select the number of pulses, and the way it is provided you will never get a half pulse or just 1% of the pulse that could damage the components and specially the resonance. So Stan was really a genius. = )


Now i'm just trying to figure out why my driver is not being able to work at high frequencies, time ago use to work at 200khz, i'm not sure what is happening. maybe is partially broken...


For solving that maybe i'm going to try the ir4427 that i have here...

I did a first test here and from the battery i could get 33vac in the tx5 coil, i didn't added the series coil yet.. .


I need to buy some fuses to use my variac again..