Author Topic: WFC VIC  (Read 290060 times)

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2011, 14:30:01 pm »
Are you all using resistive wire?

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2011, 14:59:33 pm »
The coils must be in the same core cause they will together cause the frequency doubling that meyer talked about, at the resonant frequency the tuned coil tx5 as he always talked about it,  will perform the amp restriction by letting the voltage pulse to charge the cell as the coil has a inductive reactance the charge wants first to charge the capacitor of the resonant tank, reason is capacitive reactance witch is negative so current leads voltage. ...


So when the pulse ends the charge accumulated in the cell will discharge thru tx5 so tx5 become a kind of primary that will induce another pulse in the cell restricting the amp. This is the moment where the polarity will flip in the negative voltage zone.


I have just finished the pulsing circuit and i'm finishing the assembly of the vic in few hours i hope to make it to work.


I don't know why but still not very stable the pulsing circuit but may work. I have the gated pulse trains signal... now i just need to find the inductance of my coil and estimate the resonant frequency to adjust the pulsing circuit. The problem is that i don't have a frequency meter anymore its broken (was from the multimeter) while i was trying to fix the multimeter it don't show the numbers anymore.


Hum maybe i'm going to ask my neighbor if he have one to lend me.


really shitty doing this with no equip but the lrc meter  will be all that i will use.. and the sound card scope.-

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2011, 15:01:41 pm »
Are you all using resistive wire?


No i'm not, i do have some resistive wire but is bare and so bit hard to wind. At this moment i really think is not needed... But could be an improvement for the future..


Actually the coils must be coupled within them but does not actually need to be coupled with the transformer, but actually i think that is better...  thats why he put all them in the vic..


I think that a lose coupling between the primary and the resonant coil is more desirable and thats why i think the chokes are closer in his figs ...


In this patent of the vic tx5... you actually see very clearly that he shows the insulation around the cell and the wires going into the insulation being connected to the cell only after the insulation. Than you see the ground connection of the tuned coil. And think the cell must be placed somewhere close contact to the ground and it will already form the resonant cavity-"!!!!!


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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2011, 15:11:30 pm »
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So when the pulse ends the charge accumulated in the cell will discharge thru tx5 so tx5 become a kind of primary that will induce another pulse in the cell restricting the amp.


This sounds a very strange theory to me, as when you do not put anymore externally some energy in it. The core will simply try to get rid of the field, and as all are on the same core, one coil cannot act as a primary for another, for all are just on the same core which is getting rid of his field. Finally this will result in having a completely zero field, but a lot of charged capacitances on the core, which will now again discharge, and there, they act again like a primary which will then again induce a current in the opposite direction (a resonant circuit).
But yes, if you mean, that the stray inductances of the bifilars which are not shared by the secondary could act as a primary, then I understand waht you mean. But then they would have different resonance frequencies. Is that what you mean?
Edit:

Ah now I see, you mean the WFC capacity is discharging again. But this still is IMHO exactly the same situation, just with an external capacity. Did you already try a simulation of your idea?

Quote
really shitty doing this with no equip but the lrc meter  will be all that i will use.. and the sound card scope.-

Gee, I admire your efforts at these conditions. I have all I need: Scopes, Frequency Generator, etc. As this is needed for part of my profession...


About the resistive wire:
I made my 6-1 coil with SS chokes. But the usual testing cores are just copper. IMHO the resistive wire is only needed in special conditions, namely when the WFC has a very high resistance (is very small), like e.g. for the injectors. Or the SS wire is also handy for situations where you don't have a core, as the SS will act like a core. But this is just my current opinion.

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2011, 15:22:14 pm »
Hi kalli nice to know you work with this..


I'm saying that the tx5 coil form a resonant tank with the cell capacitance in relation to ground. BEing the cell made of insulating material, if its placed in the yard, it will form a capacitance... If you connect the point where secondary and tx5 coils converge to the ground you form a resonant tank. Than being this part of a transformer that is being pulsed with 50% square wave, and this coil having its north with the same orientation of the secondary and the other coil so being positive when the others are positive will provide that when the pulse ends the capacitance will discharge thru this coil letting it to act like a primary during the pulse off. This will create another pulse of the same polarity in the secondary and the positive choke. This is the frequency doubling. During the pulse on the cell charge during the pulse off it discharges but doing so it not only induce the second pulse in the secondary but also ends by flipping the polarity of the "negative" electrode allowing a gigantic field with no current and again at the same time of course inducing the second pulse in the secondary diode choke ....


 

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2011, 15:47:39 pm »
Kali,
the scope shot is correct the way it was.The unipolar pulses are the large humps,and the high frequencies are riding ontop of it,because both signals are meshed together.If you turn off the high frequencies,all you will see are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac coming out of the vari-ac.
 
sebosfato,
with all the different ways I've hooked up coils,I have nevr once seen the double pulses.I can find resonance with any set of coils and cell,but still have never seen the frequency doubling effect that Stan talks about.
 
The frequency doubling Stan talks about, is what he is trying to replicate from the 8xa circuit.The rectified ac from the vari-ac. 
 
Don

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #150 on: February 26, 2011, 16:00:45 pm »
When you fresearch Tesla's resonant charging circuit, you will see a doubling of frequency, or pulses.
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #151 on: February 26, 2011, 16:26:59 pm »
Quote
Kali,
the scope shot is correct the way it was.The unipolar pulses are the large humps,and the high frequencies are riding ontop of it,because both signals are meshed together.
I think you don't understand what I mean. It is obviously like I said, as the scope is indicating at the left side it's reference potential. Surely your pic is correct, how could it not be, one ist just not used to the fact, that the zero potential is just somewhere and not in the middle. And it is perhaps a bit unusual to see the voltage waveform in reverse. these 2 things I corrected just visually. It remains the same scope shot.
Quote
If you turn off the high frequencies,all you will see are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac coming out of the vari-ac.
Yes, if you turn off the gating, you will only see the rectified AC. But the gating pulses on the SCR are IMHO not the pulses you see additionally in the pic. But the pulses you can adjust simply either allow these SCR-pulses to happen or not. So the resonance voltage want's to switch the SCR on and off, but the gating is needed to allow this to happen or not.
This would at least be my current opinion. But I'm at replicating the circuit, so we'll see.


@Sebastof:
Now I start to understand what you mean.
It is funny. Already since a long time ago, I had almost the same idea, how the circuit worked. Just until Don trashed my idea, by saying he's sure it wasn't connected like that. But the other variant also makes sense, just in another way.
I got this idea when I first started my research on Stan and wrote my "History of the VIC" back at waterfuelcell.org.
At these times not so much facts were known as now, as in the meantime people like Don could see the real stuff.
Back then I came to the conclusion as you, that the bifilars have to be wired with the same polarity to the WFC.
At that time my thought was, that if you wanna have a high voltage, and if you wire them bifilar, you simply cannot have a high voltage in between the coils. It would just rupture your isolation.
As you I came to the conclusion, that the resonant chokes are just a tank circuit with the WFC, exactly like a Tesla coil.
If you want to go further in this direction, I can tell you some things I already discovered. The capacity of the WFC to ground is so small, in relation to the capacity of the coil, that it is almost completely neglectable. Sure you would still need a Delrin coating around the WFC, either way, as a high voltage is on it. And you would surely want to have an earthed metal around it, for without it, even after 2cm of delrin, you would have quite some static field outside without it.
One question for me, like you now, was: Should the primary be loosely coupled or not to the resonant chokes. As you can see from the SSTCs, if you are able to feed every cycle power into the coil, and if your isolation allows it, it is better to make the coupling as tight as possible. On the other hand, you don't additionally charge the capacity every time with an additionally secondary on a normal SSTC. The problem is certainly your primary driver. Namely how much voltage can it withstand. I think therefore Stand introduced the freewheeling diode in his patent driving circuit. Surely the diode will always eat up some energy, on the other hand it allows the voltage to go higher than the Transistor could withstand, and as it seems, Stans transistors could not withstand a lot of voltage. But the freewheeling loss would still be quite significant and definitely limit your Q-factor to quite a low value. But on ther other hand, I don't think you will get a high Q with such a coil arrangement anyway.
Therefore it could make sense to have a loose coupling between the chokes and the primary. But how can you achieve this, when you have a core? By using SS wire. This will drastically increase the seen "stray inductance" (uncoupled inductance).
Therefore I wound my SS chokes on the outside of the 6-1 coil, as there it would be outside the primary field. Another point, why I thought the chokes were on the outside was, that I thought, that it would be almost impossible to isolate them from the primary, if they were on the inside. And as the chokes are connected to the WFC, they should develop a very high voltage.
Well, let's say, quite some things changed since a few days...Always on the move...Again thanks to Don to share these pics and info with all of us. This is certainly not something everybody would have done!


Quote
When you fresearch Tesla's resonant charging circuit, you will see a doubling of frequency, or pulses.
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html
Actually this is one of my hate sites (no offense), when it goes about Stan. Surely everything is correct what Richie says, but it seems most people do not understand what he is explaining. I wouldn't call it a DC-resonance, as it is IMHO simply not a resonance, but rather a correct timing, but on the Tesla-sites this naming has become standard, so be it.  But this is just a matter of definition. It simply says, that by correct timing you can double your DC voltage output without any diode.
On the site he also states, that by introducing the diode, you actually get rid off all these timing problems. Nothing is there anymore of these problems. So, as Stan used a diode, you can forget about it, as having any timing relevance whatsoever. Or simply said: By introducing the diode, it is not a "DC resonant" circuit anymore.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 18:08:17 pm by Kali_ma_Amar »