WFC VIC

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would yall give us a referance to where the current should be 180 out of phase ? All i can remember Stan saying was 90.

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I mean 180° cause the pulse frequency will double thus i'm assuming that the voltage pulse will be in counter phases, however in the resonant part of the thing actually is 90°. Just like a normal inductor capacitor circuit.


180° is the angle of the electrode polarity flip in relation to the pulse frequency.

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Testing has been going pretty good. I just finished wrapping the 6-1 VIC coil, so hopefully I will be doing some testing with that this weekend.

Do you use SS wire for the 6-1 coil?
Can you post a pic of your 6-1 ?

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First about the WFC, and it's diode capabilities:
I thought it is due to an inhomogeneous E-Field. I realized after some experiments this is not the case. I realized it is due to the Helmholtz-Layer! And if you do some experiments you will realize how extremely it reacts as a diode!!! Absolutely no current in the other direction. And if you think about it, you realize it is even quite logical, it is btw extremely similar to the PN-junction of a conventional diode, but just with ions.
Ha, as I was out in the woods with my bike, I always thought about the scope pic Don sent. I always thought, this output just doesn't make sense, if it's wired like that, and then I  finally realized. that the wiring in the pic of the "8xA circuit" is probably wrong.
And as I thought about it, together with the diode fact above, I realized how it could work. And if it is like that, then both Don and I were right and wrong. I was right, when I presumed that the later VIC is just an extension of the "8xA circuit", but was wrong, when thinking that the wiring was like in the pic.


I don't know, if it is really like I think it is, but it would make perfect sense. It would easily explain all the following points:
* it explains why on some WFCs a VIC with resistive wire in the choke coils is needed, and for others not. And it would absolutely not work just to add a resistor in the circuit instead of the resistive wire!
*  It is said, that it was seen that Stan introduced some white powder in the cell, which he demonstrated for the experts in the court case. And this would perfectly made sense. It explains why the cells for the older circuits (8XA) need tap water or even sometimes some electrolyte in it (depending on the tap water).
* It easily explains why the 8XA circuit needs an adjustable WFC plate distance. But not to alter the capacitance...
* It explains why distilled water would work best, but only with the VIC. It wouldn't work with the earlier circuits.
*  it explains why he could change the voltage of the primary in the VIC. I always thought this is strange, as quite some circuitry is need for this and it wastes quite some electrical energy. As if you would like to change the amount of gas produced you would just switch it on and off with a certain duty cycle, so why change the amplitude?. But to be able to change this primary voltage amplitude is according to this theory an absolute must, for the VIC circuit to work correctly to split the water.


Final thought: It would split the water just with an E-field (just as Stan said), and really almost no current would flow in the circuitry. There surely wouldn't be any substantial conventional electrolysis happening...

Looks like I will have something to test this weekend...
Maybe there's something behind this idea, or not. I will see. Probably it's just another theory going down the grave...

@ sebosfato: How does your 6-1 coil look like? Here's a pic of mine:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6897/my61.jpg)


Edit:
Some tests later...

I realized that the faster waveform you see overlayed actually is the SCR switching frequency. IMHO it is only able to switch there, because the coils are resonating (an SCR can only switch off, if there's no current flowing). This actually means, it can be, that the actual original "8xA circuit", could be really wired like that, and not differently.


@sebosfato:
Up until know, I also always thought, that the two choke coils do have the same polarity to the cell, as this would be IMHO the only solution how you can get high voltages on the bifilars without destroying their insulation. But as Don described, he is sure this wasn't the case. And as can be seen in the 5-coil-vic he surely didn't always wind them bifilar.
Actually for me, both versions do make sense. But now, as I have now my theory, I know what kind of signal I would like to get (low voltage DC on the cell followed by a very short HV negative pulse). So first I will replicate the 8xA and see which coil wiring gives the pic as made by Don and from there on continue...
It is really annoying. To get this waveform would be such easy if there would be any FET which could withstand several KV (just one coil parallel to the WFC). But at about 1'500V is the upper limit for electric switches. If you want more, you need quite a complicated and expensive circuitry with stacked FETs. So IMHO we need a circuit which gets this waveform, in quite an easy way.

BTW: If you wire them with the same polarity to the cell, you actually get a circuit which works exactly as Dr Stiffler's electrolyser.

I realized that just by thinking about or simulating it, you can't get too far, as he obviously needed some parasitic values for the resonance of the coils, and here is the big question, which ones, to be able to really make the correct schemata of the real circuit. My experiments so far tend to show, that the distributed capacitance within the coils themselves is probably the major factor. It is IMHO definitively not the capacity of the WFC. And it is IMHO also not the capacitance between the choke coils, therefore it is not needed that they have to be wound bifilar. They just need to have exactly the same properties (L, R and C), so that they do have the same frequency and voltage (and wiring them bifilar is the easiest way of getting there). But it wouldn't be good to have a high coil capacity, as in a resonating circuit, the voltage gets higher the smaller the capacity. How can you make the capacity smaller? By wiring the coils in sections, like in the 6-1 coil. Surely this wiring in sections is also perfect for insulation purposes, so you get 2 for one...

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I was thinking about something else today with the VIC setup. What if the cell itself doesn't really play much of a role in the setup? What I mean by this is that maybe the cell just acts a resistive load in the circuit and the resonance that takes place in only between the chokes. This is something I noticed when I was testing my setup and when I got resonance I could disconnect my cell from the chokes and replace it with a larger plate cell with a higher capacitance (10.8nF) and it would still resonant at the same frequency as the smaller cell (1.6nF).

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Well, this is what as I said I also already discovered. The WFC capacitance is IMHO completely neglectable in relation to the resonance. It also wouldn't make sense in relation to the actual circuit, due to the diode. It would only make sense if the capacitance in between the bifilars would be important. But as I already yesterday wrote this is IMHO not the case, and as the 5-VIC-COIL shows, this is obviously not the case. This is why I wrote, that I think only the distributed (parasitic) capacitance of every coil itself is important.
First I thought that the capacity of the WFC in relation to the environment is important (single terminal capacity, like the topload of a tesla coil), but this capacity would be very small. And as experiments have shown is completely neglectable. The parasitic capacities of the coils are way much larger.

But hey, we won't find out, 'til we get a lotta gas for (almost) nothing...  
But to mention is, that IMHO the capacity of the WFC does play an important role, but not in the resonance part. It is IMHO important that the capacity gets charged, so that a thick ion layer can develop at the anode. Only then, the "diode" behaviour can occur. ANd this capacitance is btw quite big. Way much larger than what you get, if you look at the capacitor as a normal capacitor (2 electrode at distance d with the dielectric water in it). This is, because the WFC will behave like a super capacitor (EDLC=Electric Double Layer Capacitor).


BTW: Interestingly in his later Memo, he even writes in the text itself, that the important resonance capacity is this distributed capacity. E.g.:

While, the distributed capacitance (Cda xxx Cdn) of each coil experiencing
inductance coupling (619) elevates applied voltage level (Vn) to a higher voltage amplitude
(increasing voltage intensity)

IMHO this is the simple description of a coil resonance with it's own L and C.


Or from his "patent validation report":

Beyond amp restricting characteristics of said Amp Inhibiting Circuit, the spiral-wrapped coils being paired together, also, causes voltage level enhancement beyond applied voltage input since the "Distributed Capacitance"/"Distributed Inductance" of said bifilar wrapped coils encourages the compounding effect (increasing magnetic field-strength during each pulsing cycle) of electromagnetic field-strength when applied Pulse-voltage Frequency passes though the positive energized Resonant Charging choke.

BTW: in this "patent validation report" he also writes, that the VIC is actually nothing but an extension of the "8xA circuit" with an additional Step-Up transformer...
This would explain why he first just used the "Amp Inhibiting Circuit". Then later (see patents) he used a step-up transformer on a separate core, and finally he wrapped alltogether on one core (VIC).


IMHO if the coils are wrapped with the same orientation (different polarity to the WFC), then the secondary delivers the DC necessary to charge the WFC capacity and the coils are responsible for short HV neg pulse to split the water.
Or if the coils are wrapped with the same polarity to the WFC, then the secondary would probably be responsible for the splitting and the bifilars are responsible for developing a thick ion layer, with the Dr. Stiffler principle.


But, I think I write and theorize again too much...Let's go again experimenting. A hole weekend is awaiting
Unfortunately I cannot find my SCRs (I know, I have once bought some)...gee, my chaos...




Edit2:
I just realized why the scope pic of Don didn't make any sense to me: It is upside down. If you look at the left, you see, where the reference potential is. Now, the waveform does make sense...

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Man The capacitance and coupling of the chokes is important cause when in resonance, the tuned coil will induce the double frequency pulse in the secondary and the choke so they must have a good coupling, thats why a closed loop core.


I made my vic in such a way that i can charge the coupling changing the distance between the laminations. I described it in my thread...


The double layer is just a name, is the same thing we were talking about related to separation of the ions by the electric fields..

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Just for better understanding. This is the scope pic in the way one usually looks at it. The red line is zero reference.
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3618/dsc0107modified.jpg)
As you can see, it makes much more sense like that. As I again looked at the "8xA circuit" I realized that he didn't switch the gate as one usually does. This is very clever. As in his way, the SCR switches exactly synchronous with the resonating coils, you only have to do the gating.

the tuned coil will induce the double frequency pulse in the secondary and the choke so they must have a good coupling

I actually don't quite get, what you exactly mean here. From where should the secondary get a second pulse?
IMHO the resonant chokes themselves will do a pulsing. Therefore strictly speaking it would IMHO not be necessary to have the secondary and the chokes on the same core. But it is certainly a big advantage if you do, as like that you will be able to directly push the chokes with the primary, and can so transfer them much more energy every cycle (which will result in much higher voltages), than just by charging their capacity every cycle, like you do if you have them separate.
But as I said, everybody is welcome for his theory...The final outcome is what's important...