Author Topic: WFC VIC  (Read 276416 times)

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2011, 04:49:37 am »
Thank you very much.


I guess this is the voltage over the WFC? It seems a bit strange, as the top ripples, which should come from the AC-wave look more rectangular than tops of sines, but this could well be due to parasitics. It looks like the SS wasn't in such a good shape anymore, as the base electrode potential is quite high.
Interestingly I just woke up and thinking about why he isolated the circuit and came upon the idea, that in the "8xa circuit" he didn't made the switch on/off at the resonance frequency, but rather the rectified AC was already on the resonance frequency of the circuit.
For what I stated above is surely only true if the Ton/Toff is at the resonance frequency. But it surely also works, to have an unrectified AC to get the coils into resonance. To get them into resonance it is only important, that the input voltage gets higher and lower exactly at the resonant frequency. Surely a square wave would be best, but maybe too complicated for Stan to produce in this early stage.
But this would have been a total pain in the a s s  to make the circuit so, as to exactly hit the resonance frequency with a fixed frequency input.
Why did I come upon this?
I was lying in bed and asked myself: Why did he isolate the circuit. There must be a reason for this. The only reason I could get was, that the overall potential might change during a Ton-Gating sequence, but this you could only measure if you don't make any earth connection with your scope to the cell.


I came upon another functional Hypotheses:
Actually this one, I already had a long time ago, but threw it away as I just couldn't image how one could make the corresponding circuit (if it is doable at all), but it now resurfaced. It is interesting to note that in an electrolysis process the splitting of the water molecule needs a different amount of energy at the 2 electrodes. The final reaction at the cathode (Hydrogen production) needs almost no potential and is therefore actually very "cheap" to produce. But the anode-potential is the real bugger, the oxygen atom in the final OH- molecule just wont let go the last hydrogen atom. There a lot of energy is wasted. This is why in optimizing conventional electrolysis processes, one focuses a lot on minimizing this potential.
But what if one creates a process which just focuses on making an asymmetric electrolysis. Namely we just actively try to get a cathode reaction. But this would obviously result in a rise in potential of the water. And here's the problem. Usually if I still try to get even more cathode reaction, I need more and more voltage (which means more energy), as the water already has that voltage. But if there would be any way, that the actual circuit would also rise in potential together with the water bath, it would work. You would get very cheap hydrogen. But there surely would be a point, where the potential cannot be heightened anymore, due to losses to the environment (therefore with this process it would be extremely important to heavily insulate the WFC). When one then does finally Stop the process, the water potential would come down again, and the anode reaction could now take place (for free, as no energy is needed in this step). This could be the reason for gating.
But I don't think this is really a reasonable idea, as if it would be really possible to make such a circuit you would additionally easily be able to produce electricity out of it for free (at the final anode discharge). Strictly speaking this would be a charging of a capacitor with only a linear dependency to voltage, in relation to the actual energy in the capacitor itself which is square to the voltage. I wouldn't see where here the energy should come from, therefore I don't think it's a reasonable theory.


Sorry, this got a bit offtopic in here. But hey here it's now 5 o'clock in the morning...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 05:07:47 am by Kali_ma_Amar »

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2011, 05:00:41 am »
Kali, basically what Stan's input waveform to the cell is suppose to look like is a full-wave rectification of an AM signal like the 3rd image in the picture below.

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2011, 05:10:25 am »
Quote
Kali, basically what Stan's input waveform to the cell is suppose to look like is a full-wave rectification of an AM signal like the 3rd image in the picture below.
This is at least like that in the Puharich-Patent. The question remains, if Stans WFC worked the same way as Puharich's. I doubt that, as the amplitude modulation frequency from Puharich was very very low.
Puharich himself actually never claimed that his process has an overunity which defies current electrolysis laws. And, what maybe some people here might astonish it is theoretically possible even for conventional electrolysis to have more than 100% efficiency (related to electrical input). The remaining energy is coming from the heat of the water. the hotter the water the less electric energy I need for splitting the water. The extreme side to this is the thermolysis of water, where the water splits due to the high temperature without any electricity involved at all.
So as Puharich himself stated, his process is an extremely efficient electric electrolysis process, so that with the help of the additional heat energy one is able to get above 100% in relation to electric input at room temperature. I think he mentioned something like 110 or 120%, don't know exactly anymore.

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2011, 05:18:25 am »
All my research has lead me to the conclusion that Stan was doing the same as Puharich, except Stan refined the method and made it produce a lot more gas output.

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2011, 09:12:11 am »
quote:
I was lying in bed and asked myself: Why did he isolate the circuit. There must be a reason for this. The only reason I could get was, that the overall potential might change during a Ton-Gating sequence, but this you could only measure if you don't make any earth connection with your scope to the cell.


I came upon another functional Hypotheses:
Actually this one, I already had a long time ago, but threw it away as I just couldn't image how one could make the corresponding circuit (if it is doable at all), but it now resurfaced. It is interesting to note that in an electrolysis process the splitting of the water molecule needs a different amount of energy at the 2 electrodes. The final reaction at the cathode (Hydrogen production) needs almost no potential and is therefore actually very "cheap" to produce. But the anode-potential is the real bugger, the oxygen atom in the final OH- molecule just wont let go the last hydrogen atom. There a lot of energy is wasted. This is why in optimizing conventional electrolysis processes, one focuses a lot on minimizing this potential.
But what if one creates a process which just focuses on making an asymmetric electrolysis. Namely we just actively try to get a cathode reaction. But this would obviously result in a rise in potential of the water. And here's the problem. Usually if I still try to get even more cathode reaction, I need more and more voltage (which means more energy), as the water already has that voltage. But if there would be any way, that the actual circuit would also rise in potential together with the water bath, it would work. You would get very cheap hydrogen. But there surely would be a point, where the potential cannot be heightened anymore, due to losses to the environment (therefore with this process it would be extremely important to heavily insulate the WFC). When one then does finally Stop the process, the water potential would come down again, and the anode reaction could now take place (for free, as no energy is needed in this step). This could be the reason for gating.
But I don't think this is really a reasonable idea, as if it would be really possible to make such a circuit you would additionally easily be able to produce electricity out of it for free (at the final anode discharge). Strictly speaking this would be a charging of a capacitor with only a linear dependency to voltage, in relation to the actual energy in the capacitor itself which is square to the voltage. I wouldn't see where here the energy should come from, therefore I don't think it's a reasonable theory.
end quote

HI Kali
You are right about Your hypotheses. Stan also talked about water as source of electrical energy and calculated amount of electrons coming from wfc to 10 kw of electrical energy. I see it in one of stan's vid.  ( new zeland meting vid )He was speaking exakly like You .You are on the right track keep going. sorry for my english
Thank andy
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 09:29:19 am by andy »

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2011, 10:41:20 am »
@Tony:
As I see it the main differences between Puharich's circuit and Stan's is the diode, and the voltage (Puharich used very low voltages). Puharich does not use a diode for rectification. This is the very strange thing about Puharich's circuit, namely that he states, that the WFC starts to act like a diode if he connects it to his circuit and rectifies the applied AC-Waveform. The only idea I could have, why this rectification could take place would be the inhomogeneous E-Field in the WFC due to the tubular arrangement.
It would be interesting, if anyone was ever able to replicate this rectification by the WFC. For one thing could be interesting: If you somehow manage, that the WFC starts to act like a diode, then you could suddenly apply a very high voltage to the WFC in the blocking direction of the WFC "diode". In this way the water would suddenly see a very high E-field, but the current couldn't flow.
But my personal guess is, that this rectification only happens at very low voltages, as Puharich used. If the inhomogeneous E-Field is responsible for it, it could be, that the E-Field differences just make the final step if the anode-reaction-potential is reached or not. Which means, the anode reaction could take place at the inner tube wall, as there the E-Field is stronger, but not take place at the outside tubewall, as there the E-Field is smaller. If this is the way Puharich's rectification took place, it wouldn't be possible to use this principle to apply a short HV-burst.
BTW: At these low voltages (below the reaction  potential) the WFC actually really acts like an almost perfect capacitor with a very high resistance. This is actually the basic principle how the low-voltage Super-Caps do work. Therefore it was probably very easy for Puharich to get a resonant circuit, as the WFC really just acted like a capacitor, and if the voltage just reached the critical reaction-potential it started to also act like a diode in one direction.


@Andy:
Actually I don't think the last hypothesis is really reasonable. But it was early in the morning  ;D ...


Sorry again, to get that much Offtopic in this thread. I will again do the experiments with the "8xA circuit", but this time, with the AC waveform on resonance and not the Ton/Toff on resonance. But I will then start a new thread not to get anymore offtopic in here. Sorry!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 11:08:01 am by Kali_ma_Amar »

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #126 on: February 23, 2011, 15:25:12 pm »
Kali'
The large humps are the 120hz pulses from the rectified ac voltage from the vari-ac.Then the square wave pulses are the ones riding on top.The 120hz is fixed and is not adjustable.I'm not sure that you understand that part,based on your responces.
 
Only the pulses riding on top are adjustable.The large unipolar pulses never change.At some points when tuning this set up,you will get harmonics of the two signals where they will match.
 
ie: 120hz,240hz,480hz,960hz.....
 
Don

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Re: WFC VIC
« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2011, 16:28:03 pm »
I think that puharich was not over unity, yes he used his am amplitude modulated signal, and his device was the rectifier. but stan really got into the resonance in my view.