Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!

Projects by members => Projects by members => Steve => Topic started by: Steve on April 30, 2010, 22:36:49 pm

Title: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on April 30, 2010, 22:36:49 pm
Hi,

Here some pics of the new 102 plates drycell.
Its build in 2 stacks and hooked up in serie.
Its possible to connect both stacks in parallel if i want to.

Every stack has his own waterinlet and gasoutlet.
All come together in a new build SS reservoir/bubler which i hope will be deliverd next week.

The part for the powersupply are already in the house...


Steve


Title: Re: 102 plates drycell FINISHED!
Post by: Hidden on May 01, 2010, 16:14:31 pm
Man, this was a hugh job!

But the result is most promising!

A happy Steve   :D :D :D

Its totally leak free too....(of course, hehehehe)

You see the Steel endplates of 1cm thickness?
Indeed...one of them dropped on my foot vertically like an axe....
and broke my toe...

Well, keep you updated on the progress on the PS for this one.

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 01, 2010, 21:04:31 pm
Very Very nice steve!
 ;)

Its very nice, the design!

How many volts and amps you are going to apply?

I was guessing That if you could apply 120v at maybe 5,55 amps you would have like 555 amps that would dissociate almost 200ml of water in one hour! this would make about 400 liters of gas in one hour or 8 liters of gas per minute!
How about the gas output? you are going to keep a bubbler with the water level higher than the plates? I'm a bit confuse...
 
Be careful
and
Well done!

Regards
Fabio
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 01, 2010, 23:17:17 pm
Very Very nice steve!
 ;)

Its very nice, the design!

How many volts and amps you are going to apply?

I was guessing That if you could apply 120v at maybe 5,55 amps you would have like 555 amps that would dissociate almost 200ml of water in one hour! this would make about 400 liters of gas in one hour or 8 liters of gas per minute!
How about the gas output? you are going to keep a bubbler with the water level higher than the plates? I'm a bit confuse...
 
Be careful
and
Well done!

Regards
Fabio

Thanks Fabio  :)

The target voltage is around 1.5V per cell till 2V.0 volt max.
Gasoutput is estimated between 15 and 20 litres a minute.
Efficiency must be around 100% Faraday.

To take away your confusion, i can inform you that on top of this wfc will come indead a special made waterreservoir with 2 waterout pipes on the right and gasinlets on the left.
On top of the reservoir will be the gasoutput.
So, waterlevel is higher then the wfc.

Regards
Steve






Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 01, 2010, 23:19:57 pm
Very Nice in did. can't wait for the results my friend.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 03, 2010, 04:11:09 am
Hi steve

Its very nice design! So you are going to push 15 amps thru it, wow! I think that maybe you will find resonant useful to do this.
Are you going to use a pump? to force the water?

I have a good news

I learned the other day that atoms have holes that can be filled with electrons every atom have a different configuration.
Oxygen have 2 holes.

When oxygen burn together with h2 the output tend to be h2o because each H fill one of the holes.
If we could charge this oxygen negatively, we would fill this holes. If we was to burn this oxygen with the h2  than water molecule would not reform again. Meyer said that he was avoiding the water to recombine.


Regards

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 03, 2010, 05:59:02 am
Very ambitious design.  Elevated reservior should do the trick.  How are you getting the power to the end plates?  I didn't see any tabs

Turtle
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 03, 2010, 07:23:07 am
Ok stevo.. You've already stomped all the records for not using additives, Now you plan to BERRY IT.

Lmao, You rock!

I just wanna see it connected to a (Real 3 phase) power source when you get done playing...
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 03, 2010, 15:30:56 pm
@Keith
The endplates have an extra extension on who i can hookup my power. Because they are on the inside, you dont see them (well)
A toptank will indead do the job .. :-)

@ Brian
Thanks dude. I must dissapoint you here. This new cell is using KOH, otherwise i never get over 100% Faraday.  However, the cell can also run on tapwater only.

@Fabio
No pump is needed, because of the way its build. Also, the reservoir has lower wateroutlets then gasinputs.
The cell is designed for around max 11 amps. Its normal operation should be a on 8/9 amps. 2kW consumed power when driven on 200V by 10 Amp is the goal.

The facts on missing electrons in outer orbits of atoms was already know by me. Thats exactly the reason why i used negative charge on my airprocessor.
Just like Stan said. Try to stop the re-combining of hydrogen with oxygen. And it works, as i already told you :-)
Maybe we will get the burn, but no water. So what happen to the hydrogen atom?.....no idea, to be honest.


Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 03, 2010, 16:46:38 pm
Hi steve

i was guessing that both ways could work on avoiding the reformation, but while ionizing negatively we can fill 1 or both of the electron holes doubling the number of water molecules forming OH using more oxygen than the original from electrolysis or actually even preventing the reformation in the case we fill both holes, but if we thus ionize positively what would happen is that we could open one more holes in the oxygen atoms allowing it to bound with 3 hydrogens forming H3O witch would be actually avoid the reformation of water molecules as stan described, because for every oxygen there will be 3 hydrogens!!!

This would lead us to have the following:
For every 3 mole of water reacted or 54 grams we would have 2H3O so we are losing 1 oxygen or 16 grams. Thus we would have 38 grams in the end. 70% of the original mass

The negative way lead us to have the following:
For every 3 moles of water reacted or 54 grams we would have 6OH thus having 3 more oxygens creating water ending up with 102 grams. Almost doubling the mass!!! 188% gain in mass

I'm not sure which would work the better! Or witch would gain more energy... but steve now that you have lot of gas you can perform some tests. Try to use more than one stage being one negative other positive and so one. the last one will give you the reversed polarity you want in the end if i'm not wrong. (i read about in some patents about ion generation)

I was thinking that maybe is possible to charge the all engine! to prevent the gas from discharge... .

This would explain the noize recorded in the stan demo video

Thus we can use:

Laser energy to help the atom to get exited
High voltage
Magnetism
Electromagnetism

And we have :

Movement of the air 

Think about steve 

Best Regards
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 03, 2010, 22:49:11 pm
Hi steve

i was guessing that both ways could work on avoiding the reformation, but while ionizing negatively we can fill 1 or both of the electron holes doubling the number of water molecules forming OH using more oxygen than the original from electrolysis or actually even preventing the reformation in the case we fill both holes, but if we thus ionize positively what would happen is that we could open one more holes in the oxygen atoms allowing it to bound with 3 hydrogens forming H3O witch would be actually avoid the reformation of water molecules as stan described, because for every oxygen there will be 3 hydrogens!!!

This would lead us to have the following:
For every 3 mole of water reacted or 54 grams we would have 2H3O so we are losing 1 oxygen or 16 grams. Thus we would have 38 grams in the end. 70% of the original mass

The negative way lead us to have the following:
For every 3 moles of water reacted or 54 grams we would have 6OH thus having 3 more oxygens creating water ending up with 102 grams. Almost doubling the mass!!! 188% gain in mass

I'm not sure which would work the better! Or witch would gain more energy... but steve now that you have lot of gas you can perform some tests. Try to use more than one stage being one negative other positive and so one. the last one will give you the reversed polarity you want in the end if i'm not wrong. (i read about in some patents about ion generation)

I was thinking that maybe is possible to charge the all engine! to prevent the gas from discharge... .

This would explain the noize recorded in the stan demo video

Thus we can use:

Laser energy to help the atom to get exited
High voltage
Magnetism
Electromagnetism

And we have :

Movement of the air 

Think about steve 

Best Regards

I tested with positive ionization of air and that didnt do anything.
The only thing i could try is to feed the HHO and air thru the ionizer, but my theory is that is doesnt make any sense and is dangerous.
HHO is already ionized when it leaves the wfc.

Steve




Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 04, 2010, 04:00:04 am
Hi steve

Did you tried to ionize positive or negatively only the air or exhaust that were entering the engine???

Regards
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 04, 2010, 09:33:20 am
Hi steve

Did you tried to ionize positive or negatively only the air or exhaust that were entering the engine???

Regards

only the air.....


Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 05, 2010, 22:15:56 pm
Small update:

Just finisched building my powersupply for the new drycell.
I ran a powertest and it works like it should.

Also got my waterreservoir annex bubler. This one is made of SS and has 2 wateroutlets and 2 gasinputs, conform by new drycell.

My wife complains about the fact me not being available last days.....
Well. I am at home, but most of the time in my lab..hehehehehe

Anyway, it all looks great and is almost ready for a first testrun.
Sadly for this, it has to wait for a week.....
I am out  fisching for a couple of days.
The good news is that the paint can dry up nicely now....

Cu

Steve




Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 22, 2010, 19:28:58 pm
Here an update on my current build.
I had made a nice SS bubler annex reservoir for the 2 sections of wfc.
Sadly this concept didnt work. Current started to leak between the 2 sections thru the waterhoses!!!!

So, i build me 2 seperate bublers.
Here are the results from my first testrun with KOH.
This is the water that is cleaning the cell, so to speak.
Hopefully i will get more KOH for a new load of water.

102 plates and 101 cells.
At 185V by 6A its doing a 1.5 ltr HHO per 12 seconds (7.5ltr/minute)  = 95% Faraday = 6.8mmw  (1.83V per cell)
At 191V by 10A its doing a 1.5 ltr HHO per 7 seconds (13 litres/minute) = 95% Faraday = 6.7mmw (1.89V per cell)

These are not bad numbers. When the cell get more hours on running and with new water, it hopefully will do a bit better.......Target is 100%.

My setup seems to be able to do like 15 litres HHO within reasons.


Steve






Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 23, 2010, 19:43:50 pm
...These are not bad numbers. When the cell get more hours on running and with new water, it hopefully will do a bit better.......Target is 100%...

Very nice Steve!

Now use hot water and a COPPER intercooler (Nickel even better) to go over 100%  ;)
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 23, 2010, 23:43:23 pm
...These are not bad numbers. When the cell get more hours on running and with new water, it hopefully will do a bit better.......Target is 100%...

Very nice Steve!

Now use hot water and a COPPER intercooler (Nickel even better) to go over 100%  ;)


Logic,

Heating up water i do understand. Why that copper cooler?

Steve

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 24, 2010, 13:59:35 pm
Here an update on my current build.
I had made a nice SS bubler annex reservoir for the 2 sections of wfc.
Sadly this concept didnt work. Current started to leak between the 2 sections thru the waterhoses!!!!

So, i build me 2 seperate bublers.
Here are the results from my first testrun with KOH.
This is the water that is cleaning the cell, so to speak.
Hopefully i will get more KOH for a new load of water.

102 plates and 101 cells.
At 185V by 6A its doing a 1.5 ltr HHO per 12 seconds (7.5ltr/minute)  = 95% Faraday = 6.8mmw  (1.83V per cell)
At 191V by 10A its doing a 1.5 ltr HHO per 7 seconds (13 litres/minute) = 95% Faraday = 6.7mmw (1.89V per cell)

These are not bad numbers. When the cell get more hours on running and with new water, it hopefully will do a bit better.......Target is 100%.

My setup seems to be able to do like 15 litres HHO within reasons.


Steve
that's awesome. 95% efficiency surpasses any commercial electrolyzer available at the moment, yesterday i read an article where are new super catalyst was developed which would get 80% efficiency. of course it's also important how long the plates stay intact, the 95% are expensive when the plates have to be changed after a few thousand litres of hydrogen/oxygen produced.

I have re-viewed the Anton cell video again and my opinion is not anymore that the energy contained in the system is large enough to continue working for 40 seconds without external power supply.
There is a second video which shows the actual-self looping process. At the end of the video they switch the cell-supply off and with only a second or so delay, the generator stops. This means that even if the cell isn't self looped and the cell-power supply would be powered by the grid the generator would shutdown almost immediately after the cell-supply is turned off.

40 seconds without external power wouldn't be realistic in that scenario, if it wasn't really a self-looped system.
I'm looking forward to your experiments! Maybe you can try out the advice of one of the forum users, where the ice process is changed in a way that the ambient air is now the HHO gas and the petrol/diesel is a very fine mist of distilled water (very very small amount so that it won't freeze in the vacuum).
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 24, 2010, 14:54:08 pm
Here an update on my current build.
I had made a nice SS bubler annex reservoir for the 2 sections of wfc.
Sadly this concept didnt work. Current started to leak between the 2 sections thru the waterhoses!!!!

So, i build me 2 seperate bublers.
Here are the results from my first testrun with KOH.
This is the water that is cleaning the cell, so to speak.
Hopefully i will get more KOH for a new load of water.

102 plates and 101 cells.
At 185V by 6A its doing a 1.5 ltr HHO per 12 seconds (7.5ltr/minute)  = 95% Faraday = 6.8mmw  (1.83V per cell)
At 191V by 10A its doing a 1.5 ltr HHO per 7 seconds (13 litres/minute) = 95% Faraday = 6.7mmw (1.89V per cell)

These are not bad numbers. When the cell get more hours on running and with new water, it hopefully will do a bit better.......Target is 100%.

My setup seems to be able to do like 15 litres HHO within reasons.


Steve
that's awesome. 95% efficiency surpasses any commercial electrolyzer available at the moment, yesterday i read an article where are new super catalyst was developed which would get 80% efficiency. of course it's also important how long the plates stay intact, the 95% are expensive when the plates have to be changed after a few thousand litres of hydrogen/oxygen produced.

I have re-viewed the Anton cell video again and my opinion is not anymore that the energy contained in the system is large enough to continue working for 40 seconds without external power supply.
There is a second video which shows the actual-self looping process. At the end of the video they switch the cell-supply off and with only a second or so delay, the generator stops. This means that even if the cell isn't self looped and the cell-power supply would be powered by the grid the generator would shutdown almost immediately after the cell-supply is turned off.

40 seconds without external power wouldn't be realistic in that scenario, if it wasn't really a self-looped system.
I'm looking forward to your experiments! Maybe you can try out the advice of one of the forum users, where the ice process is changed in a way that the ambient air is now the HHO gas and the petrol/diesel is a very fine mist of distilled water (very very small amount so that it won't freeze in the vacuum).

Thanks haithar. I know this setup is pretty efficient... ;)
Its all 304, so costs are no too high.
My setup isnt using much amps either, so the plates will not be eaten up so quick.

For the Anton setup, i know some tricks they havent used, yet.
So, ill guess my setup will have a better change.
However, i dont know what to expect at the end.
Now its for me to make the ignition change on the genset.
Those big "gearwheels" are hard to get here....


Steve


Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 24, 2010, 15:54:20 pm
Can you tell us for what do you need the gear wheels? May be there is an alternative
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 25, 2010, 15:45:01 pm
Logic,

Heating up water i do understand. Why that copper cooler?

Steve

Nickel, Copper  and a couple of other metals (which I cant remember) actually split water into H2 and O, but at a very slow rate.
(the hotter the water the better)

Nickel does this best, but I doubt if you will find a Nickel (or internally nickel plated) heatercore radiator at your local scrap dealer!  :)

At the very least using easily available copper tubing for the blumbing will slow the recombination rate of H & O and give you a tiny increase in  production rate.

(Your negative ion generator would probably do a better job though by giving the O2 the electrons it craves before it swipes/shares them with the H; forming water)

If you wanted to take this to the N'th degree you could nickel plate the intake tract and combustion chamber (top of piston etc.) where the much higher temps would speed up the reaction rate.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 25, 2010, 16:31:46 pm
Can you tell us for what do you need the gear wheels? May be there is an alternative

There are in one cycle of the engine 2 moments where the ignition sparks on such a generator.
To prevend the second spark, which is a dangerous one, i must modify the ignition system.
So, i need a gear on the engine that makes a 2:1 ratio.
The second wheel/gear must have the same size as the ignition flywheel, so to speak.
Otherwise it is very difficult to set the timing right.

Hope this make sense to you..

Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 25, 2010, 16:51:57 pm
so there is an ignition flywheel which needs to be slowed down by half, right?
You want to do this via a 2:1 ratio gear-wheel system.
Is the ignition flywheel itself a gear wheel? Then you could use only one additional gear wheel, with half the size. Or you mount another gear wheel onto the flywheel and use that in combination with another to get your 2:1 ratio. then the size wouldn't matter as long as the wheels are stable enolugh and you have the right ratio.

would anything like that work?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 25, 2010, 19:37:58 pm
The cam shaft turns at 1/2 engine speed...
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 25, 2010, 21:24:54 pm
There is only one crack on which you can mount something.

Wel, i like the 2 gear solution. But there are no gears sofar on the net that are usable. Maybe i must look for a bicycle orso....

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 25, 2010, 22:15:26 pm
I know you are looking for gears but since I really havn't seen what you are dealing with another approach that may be cheaper than gears just for a test may be using pulley's and belts.
Also I saw a video somewhere, where the guy made his gear wheel from a piece of wood.
Its possible to make from plastic.

Just suggestions if you run out of things to try.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on May 26, 2010, 14:28:23 pm
There is only one crack on which you can mount something.

Wel, i like the 2 gear solution. But there are no gears sofar on the net that are usable. Maybe i must look for a bicycle orso....

If you can figure out where the camkshaft is situated from a workshop manual or somethiing; perhaps it may be simplest to machine a hole in the casing at the camshaft's end.   Fit a seal and extend the camshaft.

I also dont see a normal fan-belt slipping with such a tiny load on it.
It would also give you the ability to set the timing easily.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 12, 2010, 16:22:05 pm
how's it going with this?
The Anton cell team said while the video is only 40 seconds long they cut it. The engine ran longer than that.
Also they claimed 10 people have visited them in the last month and seen it with their own eyes.


do you make any progress?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 12, 2010, 16:51:23 pm
I think that here is a misunderstanding with those anton boys.
I have not read anywhere that their generator was providing the power for the anton cell.

Progress: drycell is ready. Bublers are ready. Only the genset.........


Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 12, 2010, 17:43:07 pm
I think that here is a misunderstanding with those anton boys.
I have not read anywhere that their generator was providing the power for the anton cell.

No no, that's exactly what they claim.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 13, 2010, 00:13:19 am
Haithair,

I couldnt find it anywhere....

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 13, 2010, 10:54:35 am
http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=528.msg8601#msg8601
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 14, 2010, 06:03:01 am
What does the Anton cell do that Steve's cell doesn't? Both really good dry cells, Is there anything to Anton's OU claim?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 14, 2010, 14:00:42 pm
What does the Anton cell do that Steve's cell doesn't? Both really good dry cells, Is there anything to Anton's OU claim?

Good question. They should produce the same HHO gas.
My cell is more efficient,but plate spaces are the samen.

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 14, 2010, 15:23:30 pm
Either there is something special going on with the gas or it's fake.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 14, 2010, 16:07:27 pm
Maybe they are just trying to make money selling their cells, so they fake the OU experiment to gain publicity.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 14, 2010, 17:26:07 pm
we'll see when stevie gets his genset to run without the waste spark  :)
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 15, 2010, 09:19:09 am
we'll see when stevie gets his genset to run without the waste spark  :)

Yep......

Sorry for the delay in this. I am cleaning my lab and that is a lot of work.
Tonight i will take my genset apart to find out how to make that seperate ignition with that NO waist spark issue.


Steve

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 15, 2010, 15:38:34 pm
apparently they don't like books and science very much, i'll better be quiet in the overunity forums again :D

btw there's a tutorial for converting a motor to run on hho instead of gas, probably you can understand it:
feature=related
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 15, 2010, 21:21:34 pm
apparently they don't like books and science very much, i'll better be quiet in the overunity forums again :D

btw there's a tutorial for converting a motor to run on hho instead of gas, probably you can understand it:
feature=related

Thanks Haithair. Nice videos of a very radical engine modification!

Steve

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 16, 2010, 16:59:14 pm
Hi Steve,

I found the pics I took when I was modding my engine to remove the waste spark.

take a look may give you some ideas..

Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 16, 2010, 17:04:53 pm
Some more.

Hope this gives you some ideas...
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 16, 2010, 20:07:47 pm
Looks great! How do you advance or *  the timming?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 17, 2010, 16:25:42 pm
Thanks Jolt!
Nice pics too.

regards
Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 17, 2010, 16:26:34 pm
Yep......

Sorry for the delay in this. I am cleaning my lab and that is a lot of work.
Tonight i will take my genset apart to find out how to make that seperate ignition with that NO waist spark issue.


Steve

So you are looking to plumb into the 1/2 speed cam shaft similar to what electrojolt did?

(Very nice electrojolt!  :))
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 17, 2010, 16:43:06 pm
Looks great! How do you advance or *  the timing?

I never finished, still need to find a not so expensive ignition module that allow to adjust timing, so far the ones I found are too expensive.

if was now I would do it a little different, I would make the little pick up coil movable. so instead of having that hole on the engine block, I would make it a elongated hole. this way I could adjust timing mechanically.


Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 18, 2010, 18:30:26 pm
Although this has to do with fuel injection it may give some ideas: http://www.rotaryeng.net/simple-cheap-555.html  There's also an article if you look about compound turbocharging http://www.rotaryeng.net/turbo-compound.html for recovery of energy that is lost out of the exhaust.

Regards,
Andy
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 19, 2010, 18:17:26 pm
someone else trying to replicate: http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=627.msg10628#msg10628
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 19, 2010, 22:56:39 pm
someone else trying to replicate: http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=627.msg10628#msg10628

Thanks Haithar.
I just orderd the zahnrader from Conrad in the Netherlands... ;)
Then i can make the same gearbox as Sante did.

regards
Steve





Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 20, 2010, 18:56:28 pm
sorry for the stupid question, but would you have to modify a two-stroke engine too? or only four-stroke engines?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 20, 2010, 19:04:15 pm
You don't need to mod the spark on a 2 cycle engine. you do need to add oil for lubrication.
2 cycle engine need oil mixed in the gasoline.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on June 20, 2010, 22:41:32 pm
i agree with Jolt.
You need some oildrops to save your engines life.

regards
Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell modification of the iginition system
Post by: Hidden on June 24, 2010, 23:01:16 pm
Gears are in.
I went to the metalshop to extend a bolt so i am now able to mount the smal gear on it.

See picture.

regards to you all. The Netherlands won the third soccermatch   :)

Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell, new iginition system
Post by: Hidden on June 29, 2010, 00:02:04 am
Hi folks,

Here a schematic that i will use on my genset.
All components can be bought at Farnell.com

regards
Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 03, 2010, 11:38:43 am
which material do you use between the plates as a waterproof seal?
also how do i clean the plates after having cut holes in them? i suppose soap or other cleaners aren't good when using them for electrolysis later? :/
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 03, 2010, 13:23:34 pm
which material do you use between the plates as a waterproof seal?
also how do i clean the plates after having cut holes in them? i suppose soap or other cleaners aren't good when using them for electrolysis later? :/

The most simple and cheapest gaskets that i use are made from flexible PVC.
I buy it by my local store that sells large sheets for:
Teich Pfütze Tümpel for fisches in your garden... ;)
Not sure what the right german word is.
In English it is called a pond. In my country they say: vijver
The thinkness i use now is 1mm. It is similair as the Anton guys do. But that is just coincident.
I used in the past 0.5mm, but with my current material is found out that 1mm is better.
 
Make your gaskets as small as possible to maximize the use of your plates.
Last tip:
All holes in your plates MUST be out of synch of eachother.
Thise prevents leakage of current and makes your cell 10% more efficient.
 
What most people dont know is that sanding your plates help.It makes a larger surface on micro level.
About cleaning: if you use NAOH or KOH then you can be sure that your plates will be cleaned!
Hahahahaha.
If you rinse the plates proper after sanding should be sufficient.
Try not to touch the plates after the sanding.rinsing with your fingers.
Thats all.

regards
Steve
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 03, 2010, 13:39:01 pm
which material do you use between the plates as a waterproof seal?
also how do i clean the plates after having cut holes in them? i suppose soap or other cleaners aren't good when using them for electrolysis later? :/

The most simple and cheapest gaskets that i use are made from flexible PVC.
I buy it by my local store that sells large sheets for:
Teich Pfütze Tümpel for fisches in your garden... ;)
Not sure what the right german word is.
In English it is called a pond. In my country they say: vijver
The thinkness i use now is 1mm. It is similair as the Anton guys do. But that is just coincident.
I used in the past 0.5mm, but with my current material is found out that 1mm is better.
 
Make your gaskets as small as possible to maximize the use of your plates.
Last tip:
All holes in your plates MUST be out of synch of eachother.
Thise prevents leakage of current and makes your cell 10% more efficient.
 
What most people dont know is that sanding your plates help.It makes a larger surface on micro level.
About cleaning: if you use NAOH or KOH then you can be sure that your plates will be cleaned!
Hahahahaha.
If you rinse the plates proper after sanding should be sufficient.
Try not to touch the plates after the sanding.rinsing with your fingers.
Thats all.

regards
Steve
Thank you.


"Teich" is the correct word ;)
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 04, 2010, 11:53:58 am
Another question: how did you connect the plates?
I have 13 plates here, that'll make 12 chambers. At ~1.5V / chamber i would put ~18 Volts on the outer plates and leave the other ones in between unconnected. Will that work?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 04, 2010, 21:46:30 pm
Another question: how did you connect the plates?
I have 13 plates here, that'll make 12 chambers. At ~1.5V / chamber i would put ~18 Volts on the outer plates and leave the other ones in between unconnected. Will that work?

You only connect 2 endplates. Rest are neutrals.
My two endplates have special "ears" on which i can mount a connector on.
I have used also weldwire welded on plates, which is working fine as well.
If you work with a gapspace of 1mm, and you use KOH or NAOH, then a voltage between 1.5V and 2.2V should be enough to get the best performance/efficiency.
We can meet on MSN or skype if you like. Then we can talk about as much as you want.
 
regards
Steve
 
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 07, 2010, 13:18:17 pm
Thanks. I read today that if one is using KoH for electrolysis the plates should not be sanded. It was reasoned that the crystalline structure of the steel surface is changed with sanding and with use of KoH the plates would get rust relatively quick.
Were some of your cell-plates rusting?
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on July 08, 2010, 09:30:19 am
Thanks. I read today that if one is using KoH for electrolysis the plates should not be sanded. It was reasoned that the crystalline structure of the steel surface is changed with sanding and with use of KoH the plates would get rust relatively quick.
Were some of your cell-plates rusting?
Thats the first time i heard about that fact on sanding plates. To answer your question, i havent got rust. The main issues with SS and KOH/NAOH is that if you use lots of amps that the plates will be eaten disintegrate.
In my 102 platecell, my amps will not be higher then 11 amps. No rust either.

regards
Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 07, 2010, 23:00:07 pm
OMG.....
 
Leaking current all over the place....
 
I must make a redesign of my waterreservoir/bubler and seperate them totally.
 
With high voltages like 200V, electrons leak thru the watertube, reservoir/bubler and gasoutlet tube, in stead of thru the plates.........
 
arggggggg
 
 
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 12:12:10 pm
why don't you insert a valve for the reservoir supply line and close it when using the cell? Ocassionally you have to open it to let new water flow in, but the closed valve will not let current through the whole bubbler.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 20:21:44 pm
why don't you insert a valve for the reservoir supply line and close it when using the cell? Ocassionally you have to open it to let new water flow in, but the closed valve will not let current through the whole bubbler.

Thanks for thinking along, Haithar   :)
I just solved it with a new construction and materials..Later i show it all by picture of video.
 
Steve
Title: Hip Hip Hoera!!!!!!! Just beated Mr. Faradays law on electrolysis!!!
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 20:27:19 pm
So, the new setup is current leakage free.
After 15 minutes, the cell beated the law of electrolysis of mr. Faraday.
 
I did a 103%!!!!!!!
 
1,5 litres of HHO every 12 seconds with use of 172V and 6 amps equals 3 % more then Mr. Faraday said could be done. :D :D :D :D
 
102 plates = 101 cells     
172V/101=1,7V per cell.
 
I feel like a million dollars right now. 8) 8) 8)
 
Steve
 
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 20:35:50 pm
Yes!!!!! ;D

Congratulations...
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 20:36:41 pm
congrats Steve!
Title: Re: Hip Hip Hoera!!!!!!! Just beated Mr. Faradays law on electrolysis!!!
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 20:46:02 pm
So, the new setup is current leakage free.
After 15 minutes, the cell beated the law of electrolysis of mr. Faraday.
 
I did a 103%!!!!!!!
 
1,5 litres of HHO every 12 seconds with use of 172V and 6 amps equals 3 % more then Mr. Faraday said could be done. :D :D :D :D
 
102 plates = 101 cells     
172V/101=1,7V per cell.
 
I feel like a million dollars right now. 8) 8) 8)
 
Steve
good job :) i calculated 109%! i'm looking forward to your generator results
Title: Re: Hip Hip Hoera!!!!!!! Just beated Mr. Faradays law on electrolysis!!!
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 20:49:09 pm
So, the new setup is current leakage free.
After 15 minutes, the cell beated the law of electrolysis of mr. Faraday.
 
I did a 103%!!!!!!!
 
1,5 litres of HHO every 12 seconds with use of 172V and 6 amps equals 3 % more then Mr. Faraday said could be done. :D :D :D :D
 
102 plates = 101 cells     
172V/101=1,7V per cell.
 
I feel like a million dollars right now. 8) 8) 8)
 
Steve
good job :) i calculated 109%! i'm looking forward to your generator results

Thanks guy's!
 
I like your calculation better, Haithar  ;)
 
Steve
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 08, 2010, 21:03:35 pm
too bad the ice-generator is only 30% efficient or worse

what Steve needs is a way to convert hydrogen to electricity 100% efficiently

steam turbines can be around 97% efficient...
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 09, 2010, 04:34:16 am
Hello Steve


You should consider the temperature of the gas because of the law of ideal gases witch states that if you raise the temperature of a gas it will expand proportionally if the container allow it to expand otherwise it will develop pressure.


+-55Amps at 1,24 v  should give you something like 33liters of gas


Another thing you should consider is the temperature that faraday had. If i'm not wrong it was 0°. So you can conclude that probably you have there around 72% efficiency.


A good way for you to clearly see the efficiency is to check the voltage between each cell.


You said around 1.7 volts so:


1/ (1,7 / 1,24) = 72%


If you have 6 amps and 101 cells you have equivalently 606 amps at 1,7 amps so this could give you around 365 liters of gas h2+02 in one hour or about 6 liters per minute... Anyway you need more than 1kw to run this beast!


Try using freezing water to check the liters per minute this way you will be closer to the reality... 


Don't forget If you get over 300% efficiency with all this calculations than make a big party =)


Best Regards
Fabio
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 09, 2010, 12:29:29 pm
Faradays does only say something about the amount of substance created by a specific charge, the efficiency calculated by faradays law has nothing do to with voltage.


A month ago i was programming a software which would compute the efficiency of a HHO cell when fed with voltage, current and gas output but i realized that this values are absolutely worthless. the voltage needed for electrolysis is 1.23V + an additional voltage, which varies with material, temperature, current density on the electrodes, water type, ...
1.7V could be the minimum needed voltage, who knows..
The only hard fact one can get is the charge in vs. the gas out.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 18:18:59 pm
Also how much electrolyte is in your cell? I have ~3% and i get 2A at 1.7V per single cell. It doesn't get warm under 1.85V / cell which is good, but i have to optimize far more to get my desired 150W/l/min
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 18:41:30 pm
Hi Haithar


Voltage * Amperage = Power


Faraday stated that using platinum electrodes you need 1,23v to allow electrolytic conduction in the water, this mean that under this max voltage water independently of witch electrolyte or the amount of it dissolved, will behave as a dielectric. Because there is not enough energy to open the holes of conduction. Just like a transistor.


From the theory than we knew that this amount of energy transformed into h2 in this "100"% efficient electrolysis would be the same that you need to put in it to realize this work.


Now i want you all to think!


How can we create a water transistor ( a way to lower the energy required to conduct the current? )


Do you see that voltage is directly and proportionally bounded to the idea of efficiency?
 




 
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 19:25:47 pm

Faraday stated that using platinum electrodes you need 1,23v to allow electrolytic conduction in the water, this mean that under this max voltage water independently of witch electrolyte or the amount of it dissolved, will behave as a dielectric. Because there is not enough energy to open the holes of conduction. Just like a transistor.
You are forgetting the overpotentials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpotential) needed in addition to the 1.23V. It's right that 1.23V is the theoretical minimal voltage needed to electrolyse water and the overpotential of platinum on the hydrogen side is only -0.07V so electrolysis is possible at low voltage. However efficiency in terms of electrical input vs. energy content of created gas can only be measured when knowing the exact overpotential at the current temperature, material, current density,.. 1.23V cannot used as the 100% efficiency value in a real setup.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 23:30:38 pm
Hello,


i previously wrote a lot and have lost everything =(... here i go again


I did an experiment witch i posted on my thread about resonant electrolysis... in witch i had a resonant tank at 27khz 20amps and 700 volts i was inputing about 80watts and i had between the electrodes that were made from ( 2 tubes steel and 2 internal bolts stainless steel ) 1,44 volts. Note i had 20 amps flowing at 1,44 volts or 28watts were going on electrolysis and it were going at 85% efficiency  = 1/(1,44/1,23)  (excluding the losses on the tank and input circuit witch at the time was not the ideal)  so about 9ml of water was being converted into h2 in one hour

I had many losses on the capacitors of the tank, the inductor, the rectifier stage, the mosfet because they were not designed for this. Some capacitors blowed from the heat, i used 20 x 1n4007 diodes in parallel... 


I was getting that much amperage because the current was passing thru the water only because of the inertia and not because of the over potential,  current was 180° from voltage so there was virtually no voltage across the electrodes the only voltage was due to the potential required to open the holes of conduction. 


Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 23:51:40 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpotential


Check this
Activation overpotential
The potential difference above the equilibrium value required to produce a current which depends on the [/color]activation energy of the redox event. While ambiguous "activation overpotential" often refers exclusively to the activation energy necessary to transfer an electron from an electrode to an analyte. This sort of overpotential can also be called "electron transfer overpotential" and is a component of "polarization overpotential", a phenomenon observed in cyclic voltammetryand partially described by the Cottrell equation.
Reaction overpotentialReaction overpotential is an activation overpotential that specifically relates to [/color]chemical reactions that must formally precede electron transfer. The reaction overpotential can be reduced or eliminated with the use of homogeneous or heterogeneous electrocatalysts. The electrochemical reaction rate and related current density is dictated by the kinetics of the electrocatalyst and substrate concentration.
The platinum electrode common to much of electrochemistry is also electrocatalytically non-innocent for many reactions. For example, hydrogen is oxidized and protons are reduced readily at the platinum surface of a standard hydrogen electrode in aqueous solution. If electrocatalytically inert glassy carbon electrode is substituted for the platinum electrode, then the result is irreversible reduction and oxidation peaks with large overpotentials.
[/size][/b][/color][/size][/font]
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 23:57:28 pm
Thus of course 1,23v can be used as 100% efficiency voltage, however you need Platinum electrodes and there will be some losses on the input circuit depends on the design. It can be made to have almost 99% efficiency if you want but is costy...
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 10, 2010, 23:59:15 pm
Hello,


i previously wrote a lot and have lost everything =(... here i go again


I did an experiment witch i posted on my thread about resonant electrolysis... in witch i had a resonant tank at 27khz 20amps and 700 volts i was inputing about 80watts and i had between the electrodes that were made from ( 2 tubes steel and 2 internal bolts stainless steel ) 1,44 volts. Note i had 20 amps flowing at 1,44 volts or 28watts were going on electrolysis and it were going at 85% efficiency  = 1/(1,44/1,23)  (excluding the losses on the tank and input circuit witch at the time was not the ideal)


I was getting that much amperage because the current was passing thru the water because of the inertia and not because of the over potential,  current were almost 180° so there was virtually no voltage across the electrodes the only voltage was due to the potential required to open the holes of conduction.
that's nice and i'd like to hear more of it, but it's quite off-topic. in dry cells like steve and mine we are dealing with ordinary direct current at the lowest possible voltage to amps ratio.


probably steve can move this to a new thread.








I agree with you that when using platinum electrodes 1.23V is the minimum voltage. however we are using stainless steel  ???
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 11, 2010, 00:08:30 am
If you use steel the voltage maybe is smaller, however i'm not sure it both electrode must be steel... using NaOH the steel didn't corroded too much...  however there was always some iron powder on the bottom of the tubes...


=) Hope i helped somehow


I still believe that we should understand how to construct a mosfet made of water. 


Best regards
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 11, 2010, 05:01:13 am
Steve, way to go with the efficiency you noted.
I have a feeling its even higher, the reason being how did you make the measurement (LPM)?
Guessing you have used water displacement method for the LPM measurement.
From tests done by another reliable source it shows that easily 35% to 50% more output with a mass flow measurement device like Coriolis.
Water displacement although good, you must overcome some grams of force up to many grams of opposing forces to make the displacement measurement.
 
For that reason if water displacement method was used your numbers are actually higher.
 
Anyways again real nice to hear good results.
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 11, 2010, 10:46:15 am
Steve, way to go with the efficiency you noted.
I have a feeling its even higher, the reason being how did you make the measurement (LPM)?
Guessing you have used water displacement method for the LPM measurement.
From tests done by another reliable source it shows that easily 35% to 50% more output with a mass flow measurement device like Coriolis.
Water displacement although good, you must overcome some grams of force up to many grams of opposing forces to make the displacement measurement.
 
For that reason if water displacement method was used your numbers are actually higher.
 
Anyways again real nice to hear good results.

Hi Komtek,
 
I measured indead with the magic 1.5 litre bottle and a bucket of water.
Its sounds nice when you say that the reality might be even better   :)
 
What Sebos is telling about using 273 degree kelvin is i think also right.
But his calculation is not. The difference between 273 and 293K  makes on the totall calc a change of max 7%.
 
So, accoording to Haithar i do here a 109% minus 7 % = still 2 % better......
I dont have time to show the totall calc but maybe later i will publish that one.
 
But at this moment i do measure like the whole HHO community does and compared to them and compared to what the Anton group does, i do good here.
 
 
Steve
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 11, 2010, 18:51:07 pm
congrats steve! im glad to see some awesome results!  lets  keep em coming :)  the day of true sovereignty is coming !!
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 12, 2010, 01:15:10 am

 Great job, Steve.   Now, like everyone, I am waiting to see-hear results with the Generator.
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 12, 2010, 02:56:48 am
Nice work, Steve!  Faraday never even had a chance  ;)
Title: Re: 102 plates drycell
Post by: Hidden on August 12, 2010, 16:46:43 pm
Also how much electrolyte is in your cell? I have ~3% and i get 2A at 1.7V per single cell. It doesn't get warm under 1.85V / cell which is good, but i have to optimize far more to get my desired 150W/l/min
i bump my question. :)