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Projects by members => Projects by members => Electrojolt => Topic started by: electrojolt on March 10, 2009, 15:53:04 pm

Title: My Copper and Stainless cell Project. Major Failure.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 10, 2009, 15:53:04 pm
Don't even bother with this... all the solder points disolved with the KOH!!!



I have been testing using copper for the negative electrode and stainless for the positive with good results.

My only reason to test copper is because it is cheeper and easier to use than SS.

So far I have ran a copper cell for 72 hours and still no indication of copper breakdown on top of that the water stays clean. I like my water clean.

Since Stevie noticed better production when the outer tube is negative, next going to  use copper as the outer tube.

Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2009, 15:04:55 pm
The water is conducting. there is no problem there.

I was going to get some 3/4 copper pipe to test using copper for the outer tube, but I just realized I have about 8 feet of 1/4" SS tube. I also have some 1/2 copper pipe.

So I will be testing using what I have. Going to make as many cells as I can using these materials.

In this economy can't waste money...
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2009, 03:24:57 am
Yes, I'm pulsing using my stable PWM and it is working ok. I added another section to the circuit to extract power from the cell during the gating and it looks like it is causing the current to drop almost 400 miliamps. Still trying to confirm this.

I just finished cutting the pipes for the next copper cell experiment.

18  outer copper 1/2" tubes, 4 inch long.

18 inner SS 1/4" tubes, 5 inch long.



Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2009, 03:52:45 am
So far using the copper as the nagative electrode works just fine with no effect on the copper at all. and I ran 5 AMPS into the 3 little tube cells, with the copper as negative, water stayed clean.

I also ran the cell for over 72 hours between 1 and 2 AMPS. Same thing, water very clean and nothing wrong with the copper.

the only time I saw a problem with copper is when using copper for the positive, or when the water gets very hot. burning hot.

I know, every one says not to use copper because it makes the water green, and the copper corrodes, but I think that is because they used copper for both positive and negative.

Actually when using copper as negative, it gets a white protective coating, I think that is some SS from the positive electrode.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2009, 09:55:41 am
Yes, I'm pulsing using my stable PWM and it is working ok. I added another section to the circuit to extract power from the cell during the gating and it looks like it is causing the current to drop almost 400 miliamps. Still trying to confirm this.

I just finished cutting the pipes for the next copper cell experiment.

18  outer copper 1/2" tubes, 4 inch long.

18 inner SS 1/4" tubes, 5 inch long.


Electrojolt is going to write history with his coppertubecell!

br
Steve
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2009, 15:31:55 pm
Since we are looking at Brute force method here, I would like to suggest the current draw be kept between 0.25A and 0.5A/sq. in of the surface area of the smallest electrode. Meaning, the current draw for 0.5" inner tube, 4" long, should be:
pi*0.5"*4"=6.28 sq. in, divided by 4 = 1.57A min, divided by 2 = 3.14A max. The copper cathode's significantly lower resistance than SS, should produce much more gas at these current levels than using a SS cathode.

Also, the optimum voltage per cell should be 1.8V-2.5V. A series configuration will be best and efficiency goes very high when the voltage across the series cell is more than 24V.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 14, 2009, 16:41:15 pm
Thanks CowboyRX....

yes it does help.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2009, 01:59:29 am
I just ran a quick test, 3 of these tubes in parallel use 3 AMPS at 2.5 volts.

Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2009, 04:49:22 am
I'm very inpressed... after running the 3 parallel tubes for about 4 hours, now it is using 4.75 AMPs at 2.3 volts.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2009, 15:55:41 pm
Ok, I found another anomaly... Copper as negative does help keep the water clean.. it actually cleans water. I deliberatly got the water dirty, and after running the cell for a few minuntes, the water clean up. it looks like the dirty particles bond to the copper.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 15, 2009, 16:03:57 pm
Ok, I found another anomaly... Copper as negative does help keep the water clean.. it actually cleans water. I deliberatly got the water dirty, and after running the cell for a few minuntes, the water clean up. it looks like the dirty particles bond to the copper.

Well thast frikkin amazing .

Push the voltage higher plz .
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2009, 23:43:37 pm
Quick update:

I threaded both ends of the 22 (1/4 inch) ss tubes, used 10/32 TAP.

The most important thing about building a High AMP cell, is to minimize current loss. loosing 100 milivolts to heat is huge...

All the connections and wiring have to be over rated.

The bigger losses are in stainless steel: bolts used as terminal. these need to be way over rated.

the Second Picture show what I'm talking about, 0ver 90 milivolts loss when using that 5 mm SS bolt. and the power source is only 2.7 volts 4 AMPS. so the volatge at the cell is only 2.6 volts.

Every little bit of losses needs to be elimilated for maximun efficiency.

One thing I'm going to help reduce current loss is to insert and crush solid copper wire inside the 1/4 inch SS tubes.

I will be using an old car battery case as the container for this cell.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2009, 17:20:27 pm
To reduce losses, the connections on the electrodes should be made under the electrolyte. Reference Bob Boyce series open bath designs. Also, copper connections can be made on the positive SS tubes, but the connection must be sealed by a sealant/goop of some kind, or the copper will start oxidizing, turn green and dissolve into the solution.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2009, 17:35:07 pm
To reduce losses, the connections on the electrodes should be made under the electrolyte. Reference Bob Boyce series open bath designs. Also, copper connections can be made on the positive SS tubes, but the connection must be sealed by a sealant/goop of some kind, or the copper will start oxidizing, turn green and dissolve into the solution.

CowboyRx,

Thank you for the usefull info. that is exaclty what I will be doing.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 24, 2009, 18:27:25 pm
ok, I think I now have all the materials to complete this 42 tubes copper / SS cell.

I still have a lot of work ahead to finish.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2009, 17:43:04 pm
Quick update.

Finished cutting all the pipes to size.

1/4 inch SS = 5" long

1/2 copper = 4" long.

Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2009, 17:56:30 pm
for some reason your gap looks very large between your pipes.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2009, 18:04:09 pm
Gap is going to be 1/8. remember I will be using a ton of KOH.

The large gap is to ensure Oxygen stays away from the copper, also to allow good gas flow out of the tubes.

when I tested using a single tube, gas boils out of the cell, needs to have good flow.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2009, 19:05:54 pm
looks good jolt.

I don't understand why you are going the electrolysis route tho, it's pretty much a cost/energy ineffective process, and doesn't lead to energy freedom in any regard.

You have the electronics skills, I'd think you'd be in a great position to jump all over Stan's work, and there you only need the 3" cell to get started, which I am sure you can build easier than this beast!. On that note, you could turn around and run this on a VIC and get huge production without chemicals.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2009, 22:10:58 pm
looks good jolt.

I don't understand why you are going the electrolysis route tho, it's pretty much a cost/energy ineffective process, and doesn't lead to energy freedom in any regard.

You have the electronics skills, I'd think you'd be in a great position to jump all over Stan's work, and there you only need the 3" cell to get started, which I am sure you can build easier than this beast!. On that note, you could turn around and run this on a VIC and get huge production without chemicals.

Thanks Donald,

Well I don't mean to discorage anyone, but I already spent countless hours experimenting with Stan's work without any good results. So I started to experiment with low voltage and the results look better than when I tested Stan's...

The main Reason I'm building this cell, is to test a new circuit "ERC" Energy Recycling Circuit that I added to my Stable Gated PWM. I beliave we can extract some power from the cell, enouph to power a smaller second cell.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 26, 2009, 00:03:22 am
Electrojolt,

You have a very original idea. I like it.
Btw, i modified the ERC circuit.

br
Steve
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 26, 2009, 02:47:59 am
Electrojolt,

You have a very original idea. I like it.
Btw, i modified the ERC circuit.

br
Steve

Thanks Stevie,

Lets see if we can make the ERC perform some Magic. I will not be able to fully test mine until I complete this cell. This cell is not hard to build, even with simple tools (Drill, Hand Saw, Pipe cutter, etc..)  but it is very time consuming.

Cut 84 pipes, Tread 84 pipe ends, need to build a flange for the battery case, need to make 12 brackets to support the tubes, cut 252 spacers, 6 for each pair of tubes... OMG, just thinking about it I'm getting tired.

Little by little I will get it done.

Electrojolt
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 28, 2009, 02:58:49 am
Quick update


Today I built the Flange ( think that is the name for it).

I also open threads on all the SS tubes

Moving along.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 28, 2009, 10:22:29 am
Well, Electrojolt,

That is looking good!
Thanks for sharing the updates!

best regards
Steve
Title: A Few Steps Closer: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 29, 2009, 01:45:13 am
Progress Report:

Today I made the cover for the cell, glued the flange to the battery case, made the cover gasket, also made the tube support brakets and started to clean/sand the copper tubes.



Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 29, 2009, 03:28:04 am
looking good! try soaking them in vinegar, i remember years and years ago i learned you could clean [copper] pennies by soaking them in vinegar, makes them shiny just like new.
Title: Ready for assembly: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 30, 2009, 17:57:53 pm
all the parts are now ready for assembly
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 31, 2009, 02:26:51 am
Started to assemble, checking for any adjustments.. need to cut the tube holder a little.

Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 31, 2009, 03:01:58 am
O SO PRETTYYYYYYYYY
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 31, 2009, 03:40:33 am
It is not suppose to be pretty...

I just can't wait to finish it and fire it up..

I'm still a few days away for the smoke test.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 05:25:10 am
The Copper cell is ready.

Just waiting for the KOH.

I'm currently conditioning the cell using the left over KOH.

Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 05:58:17 am
Very impressive project!
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 16:37:46 pm
Thanks John,

I'm now finalizing the PCB to drive this cell. ;)
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 16:38:52 pm
sweet :)

does your circuit have a PLL in it to track the resonance?
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 18:15:47 pm
No, unfortunately I have not found any signs of resonance.

The circuit is going to be my Stable Gated PWM.

Right now I'm testing the durability of using copper, so far so good, I drove this cell hard using up to 20 AMPS, and there is no signs of copper degradation, even at 20 AMPS, TAP water with KOH remains Chrystal Clear.
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 18:42:44 pm
No, unfortunately I have not found any signs of resonance.

The circuit is going to be my Stable Gated PWM.

Right now I'm testing the durability of using copper, so far so good, I drove this cell hard using up to 20 AMPS, and there is no signs of copper degradation, even at 20 AMPS, TAP water with KOH remains Chrystal Clear.

Thats a great new discovery , copper is very cheap compared to ss .
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 19:09:41 pm
stephen meyer explains that the stainlees plays a key role in production because of its semiconducting properties. im gonna make a thread with all his radio blogs..
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 19:33:31 pm
stephen meyer explains that the stainlees plays a key role in production because of its semiconducting properties. im gonna make a thread with all his radio blogs..

Well I`ll be doing with s/s , I dont believe copepr will do good with high voltage . And I believe Claudio will see some negative effects due to copper sometime in the future .
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project.
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 06, 2009, 19:54:24 pm
When you are using chemicals/electrolyte to do electrolysis, you have a chemical reaction going on inside the cell. If you listen to the electrolysis crowd on youtube they say 316 ss is better than 304 because it has more of something fancy and less of something else. but this is for exposure to a chemical reaction

When you use high voltage, it is a physical process of opposite electrical attraction, so the only "exposure" going on is simply the contact of the water/hydrogen/oxygen against the ss, so there is no chemical reaction to be contained.

316 ss is not needed for high voltage, simply because there is no chemical reaction, it is a physical process, and the 304 ss is cheaper (law of economics) and is still inert to the process.

As for copper. in a high voltage situation exposed to water, hydrogen, and oxygen, i don't personally know of any effects/reactions they will have with the copper, but i would guess it would be minimal.

As for copper. In a electrolytic environment, you are exposing the copper to a chemical reaction with potassium/sodium as well as water, hydrogen, oxygen, and i am not sure what the reaction with potassium/sodium is with copper, it my be perfectly inert to the process. I will ask some chemistry friends about it and see what they think. Stan says that even some types of platinum will erode in this process too, so that lends to the idea something vicious is going on in a electrolysis cell.

As long as you are having good (or bad! since we learn from those too) results then keep it up :) I just wanted to outline the differences between some common thoughts about materials as i have come to learn.



Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project. MAJOR FAILURE !!!!!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 17:12:24 pm
Ok, Today I went to do a test using the copper cell, just to find out that all the solder points got loose, every single wire that was soldered to the copper tubes got loose.


The copper itself looks ok, so looks like the KOH disolved the solder.

 ???  >:(
Title: Re: My Copper and Stainless cell Project. MAJOR FAILURE !!!!!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 19:17:46 pm
Ok, Today I went to do a test using the copper cell, just to find out that all the solder points got loose, every single wire that was soldered to the copper tubes got loose.


The copper itself looks ok, so looks like the KOH disolved the solder.

 ???  >:(


Hmmmmm,

Lots of repair work to do this weekend for you... ;)
Still nice to hear that the copper negatives are holding good.

Steve