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Projects by members => Projects by members => Haithar => Topic started by: haithar on September 14, 2008, 18:59:58 pm

Title: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 14, 2008, 18:59:58 pm
Hi,
finally i got my steel tubes and set up my wfc.
4 tubes, each 12" long. Outer Diameter of the larger one is around 1",
but the gap is around "1 layer of electrical tape" and ~1mm.

There's the problem ;) I ran Ravi's/Dave Lawton's conditioning process for the first time today, and all was fine. But the different size of the gap annoyed me and after i changed the water after the first conditioning cycle some pipes had contact.
I now plan to redo the electrical tape isolation tomorrow, but maybe you have a tip what i could use as a spacer?

I had elastic band or thin plastic in my mind, but it didn't work out good, i couldn't get anything of that into the very small gap.
What do you use?


Second thing i noticed: In D14 it states "The MOSFET is rated for 22amp and should run very cool ...", i'm using the IRFP240 (200V,20A), and it gets hot, i had to mount a heat sink, but its getting hot in seconds (10V 2,5A). Is that okay or are your mosfets running cool?
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 14, 2008, 20:30:57 pm
in your picture it looks like the screws holding you outter connection on are touching the inner tube  that could be short causing your mosfet to get hot
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 14, 2008, 20:41:48 pm
the screws are isolated from the other tubes via the electrical tape. I paid attention to that point, they don't touch and i have measured it via multimeter. doesn't the voltage drop and the amps go up unnormaly high when a tube is short circuited? i once shorted my mosfet because i had forgotten to put a resistor in between and it draw 3.5 amps instead of the 0.1amps it normally does, anyway i'll take a look at that again tomorrow. thank you.


and thanks for the tip with the nylon, i'll look what i can do.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 21:10:37 pm
Okay i isolated the tubes again, again with electrical tape but more evenly. The ohmmeter on a scale of 20k ohms says they are definitely not touching each other, well the mosfet is getting hot, i'd say around 60-70°C, but i have to measure it. Hope it is okay with a RDSon of 0.18Ohms, especially with the heatsink.


By the way, some observations:
When i disassembled the tubes today i could see the white coating which had formed, it was very thin but very well bound to the tube (low amp conditioning), i had to use sanding paper to get the coating off.
The screws on the outer tubes got rusty after two hours of conditioning while the inner ones stayed normal. I'll replace them with stainless steel screws. The top area of the water got a light touch of gold/brown in it while conditioning, but no brown scum has formed.
I was using the water from our well and plan to change to rainwater or mix both to see if it works, so you can get your water for free if you aren't living in the center of africa where rain is as rare as gold.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 22:30:03 pm
Fortunely we have a shop which sells all types of screws in the amounts you want (from one single screw to as many you want), so i'll get me rust free ones tomorrow.
Thanks for the tip with the brass, an enermgency alternative ;)
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 17, 2008, 21:05:05 pm
damn, the electrical tape is losing grip with the tubes because of all the water and the white layer.
i'll disassemble it tomorrow and try super thin twisted yarn, nylon was too large, it won't fit in, even if the diameter is 0,8mm. it seems that i have a much closer gap as i thought of, no way its 1mm.


after i took out one inner pipe some minutes ago i could see the grey/white layer which had been built. while some of the powder is easily removed there is a thin layer which you can only scrub away with sanding paper. i'm curious to see this layer in a month and the change on amp draw and gas production.

after the third conditioning cycle i had the feeling the gas production already increased and the bubbles got bigger.
let's see... i'll keep you informed.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 19, 2008, 13:49:30 pm
14.25 Watts into the system (pulse generator, mosfet -> tubes)
=> 1.5A * 9.5V

10seconds video (http://rapture.sp.funpic.de/1.3gp)

I noticed that with every conditioning cycle the watts i put into the system get lower, but if i put in more then 2 amps the coating flakes off partly, i'll think i'll only condition from 0.5A - 1.5A now. By the way 100% duty cycle while conditioning.

Maybe the tubes will be cut to 6" in length in order to minimize the way the gas has to go through the tubes.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 19, 2008, 15:40:02 pm
i was using (plastic coated) copper wires from the beginning on, i don't have ss wires and i dont see how they could help. the resistance is much too high and depending on your setup they are not necessarily underwater, so the only advantage of ss wires is gone.

Second video: 2_8.3gp (1.2 MB) (http://b.imagehost.org/download/0181/2_8.3gp)

Will measure the output compared to the input of the tubes next week. I'm hoping for more than 50% efficiency.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2008, 13:00:00 pm
One thing i noticed was that the pulse frequency doesn't really matter in Ravi's or Lawton's replications, they both are based on a frequency generator but there is nothing mentioned to a particular frequency which one has to use or how to find the right frequency.

It seemed that Ravi one time found the acoustic resonant frequency to be the same as the pulsed in Lawton's video, but then he dropped the idea. Lawton reports 300% without the bifilar coil so there is definitely no resonant circuit. Why the frequency?
It all seems more and more to be like in the video of the recently suspended account "StanleyMeyer" on Youtube. I found a mirror:

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2008, 14:55:04 pm

Your outer tubes appear to be all touching one another in the video.  I found that my gas production was much less when my outer tubes were allowed to touch one another.  I may not be seeing a spacer that you might be using. 


Well yeah it seems so, but they are not touching. I have a gap between 0.5mm and 1mm (0.0197" to 0.0394") and therefore i needed very small spacers, i use nylon strings and twisted yarn (right word?) to get this small gaps, when you look at the video again you'll notice the fine black strings and the (larger) green/white strings coming out from between the tubes (@18 - 20 sec you can see them the best), that are my spacers and as i said in the other thread: With no water in the cell i have around 9.2 Megaohms resistance between them, when they touch i have under 10Ohms Resistance between them, i'm measuring it everytime i switch on the unit to prevent short circuiting (tubes shouldn't touch unless you have a pretty large resistor in between, otherwise it shortcircuits).


I contacted Ravi several times and he answer's pretty fast (some hours), but he'd only say i have to look at his forum posts and he can't tell more and also the project is on hold.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 21, 2008, 16:31:47 pm
Next thing i noticed, of the 8-9V going into the circuit only 2-3Volts are reaching the cell directly.
I made a picture of how i measured the voltage between the tubes.

Probably that's why my cell isn't getting warm, not necessarily a bad thing..
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 23, 2008, 17:18:36 pm
Wow i put my selfmade 760µH bifilar coils in between today and from the bubbles i think the efficiency increased more.
I'm getting everything ready for measurement and i hope by the end of the week i'll have data on efficiency of my replication (i hope it'll get better, because the coating isn't as good as it should be, think it needs more time).


But the question remains, i put 8-9V in, and only 2-3V of that reaches the cell, the mosfet greatly lowers the voltage. what should i do about that?
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 23, 2008, 17:50:02 pm
I would take the mosfet current, run it through the primary of a transformer with dual seconday outouts, and then match the chokes to the transformers inductance and see what that does to your tubes at resonance. You have to match the chokes to the transformer, otherwise you'll never get resonance in the circuit.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 23, 2008, 18:42:34 pm
As i have no transformer at the moment i don't have to match the chokes to it ;)
I'm using the updated Dave Lawton circuit, and plan to use the transformer later, but not now.

Anyway: I dont think so, because the resonance is forced via voltage impulses and I guess the transformer can be seen as the supply line. Besides that the oscillation does only happen in one direction so the current doesn't go back through the transformer coil to hit the other side of the circuit.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 13:08:41 pm
it becomes stranger  :o
i had the cell run at 1.5amp 9V IN (3.2V directly measured between the tubes) and measured the Ohms between inner and outer tube while running: >17MOhm
How can a current flow with a resistance 17 megaohms?? The voltage has to be incredibly high for even a little current to flow.  ???


edit: oh i got a resonant circuit with variable resistance now.. have to calculate it all .. dont mind
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 16:52:02 pm
it becomes stranger  :o
i had the cell run at 1.5amp 9V IN (3.2V directly measured between the tubes) and measured the Ohms between inner and outer tube while running: >17MOhm
How can a current flow with a resistance 17 megaohms?? The voltage has to be incredibly high for even a little current to flow.  ???


edit: oh i got a resonant circuit with variable resistance now.. have to calculate it all .. dont mind

You can't measure resistance with a DVM while there is a voltage present, it gives a false reading.   

The DVM sends a very small current and measures the voltage drop across what you're measuring, so if there is voltage from a source other than the DVM, the measurement is hosed.

The water will also hold a charge when you shut off your PWM or other voltage source.  Therefore you must either discharge the voltage, wait for it to dissipate, or change the water before taking your measurement.

The same goes for taking capacitance measurements on your cell.

Are you pulsing the cell?  If so your voltage measurements are not right either.  The DVM set to DC volts can't measure a pulsed signal correctly. 


Mikemongo


Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 25, 2008, 17:14:53 pm
okay thanks for the info, hadn't thought about that.

anyway some news:
 - i can't measure the output at the moment because i have an open system without any gas valves to really measure it, the pressure needed for the gas to go through a hose cant build up, so i would have to get a new closed container like ravi or d. lawton and many others have.
- the gap is to small. i hoped that a small gap would increase gas production (C = e0 A / d), but i haven't thought about the calcium (?) layer and that the bubbles can't really go upwards out of the pipe because of the small room in there. Also the current is very high. Solution: make the inner pipe smaller (decrease diameter about 1mm), i'll see

disconnected the bifilar coil for conditioning:
- i have the cell running for 5 hours now at 9V, the amp draw decreased from 1.42A to 1.37A at the moment (1 hour later edit: 1,27A, still getting lower)

- instead of the long time waiting for the buildup of the calcium layer, would it not be easier to isolate the inner pipe with thin adhesive tape like jnaudin did? or has the material of the layer influence on the gas production? anyone tried that?
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 28, 2008, 00:50:37 am
I would point out that if the pic represents your cell setup as tested, then your voltage read [erroneous as it may be due to pulsing] is actually that voltage present across each tubeset.  The parallel arrangement produces that effect.

If you had your tubes "daisy chained" in series, then the voltage would be 1/4 to each, given exact same spacing , tube length and water characteristics.

Series or parallel; which is it you ran your test with?

Turtle
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 28, 2008, 18:49:41 pm
I have connected them like in the picture, the outer tubes are all touching each other, connected parallel, which means that the voltage is the same no matter where i measure it.

There's a 4-5 volts drop (input 9V) after the mosfet.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2008, 14:40:55 pm
Hmm.. i think i'll stop the project.

I have an exact Dave Lawton circuit, producing the right waveform (see new video), i got a bifilar coil and tubes from the right material with a very small gap. I got a white coating (not as perfect like Ravis or Aarons), which decreased amp draw, but didn't increase gas production (?).

New measurements: 6V~ going into the cell, amp increased after coil from 0.98A to 1.22A which increases gas production of course, but not abnormally much.
Well, it's bubbling. I cannot measure it, but its far less than the videos of the replications i watched. Hmm..

MOV00048.3gp (1.2 MB) (http://b.imagehost.org/download/0859/MOV00048.3gp)
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2008, 15:34:55 pm
it's not, because of one of your posts, i just looked through the documents again and compared it to my setup.
the only thing which is not accurate are the tubes, the gap is much much smaller and the coating isn't as good, but i cannot see how an isolating coating could increase the production.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 29, 2008, 16:04:51 pm
i'll keep on conditioning until the weekend and then i'll measure it with an easy way.
cant stop without knowing my efficiency ;)


hope you know what i mean with the picture, everythings underwater, the gas goes into the measuring pitcher and is collected at the top.
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on October 07, 2008, 17:09:22 pm
I tested output, disappointin ;) some cc per minute, not very much, even compared to the 2.3Wh/l.
Damn..

Btw, this is why you do not want to use a gap which is too small. tubes cannot be cleaned of the brown muck, water cannot flow through it as it should, resistance is too low (therefore current is too high)

MOV00048.3gp (474 KB) (http://b.imagehost.org/download/0952/MOV00048.3gp)
Title: Re: My tube cell, i need your ideas & suggestions
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 13, 2009, 09:47:00 am
I suggest you insulate your cell walls with dielectric spray, typically 70 kV can be reached. Then measure inductance at different freqs with a digital LCR meter. The LCR meter is EXTREMELY important for success, in fact without it nothing will be controlled. With this instrument you will learn how to control L, C and R values with different spacings, insulations and at different freqs.