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Projects by members => Projects by members => Timeshell => Topic started by: timeshell on April 05, 2013, 04:34:11 am

Title: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required (WRONG, but interesting discussion)
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 05, 2013, 04:34:11 am
So, I have been pondering the VIC circuit vs the water capacitor today and how electrolysis happens.  Basically, electrolysis in water occurs when there is an electric potential of 1.48V across it.  Once a DC voltage over this is achieved across the water fuel cell, we must conclude that the condition is electrolysis.

Now, what if the RMS voltage across the WFC doesn't exceed 1.47V?  Well, we then have a charge building up on the cell.  We end up with the condition we are looking for where there is a build up of a charge that doesn't cross the water barrier.

Now, what if the less than RMS 1.48V hits a resonant point between the choke and the capacitor?

I'm wondering if we're going about this all wrong.  Meyer's indicated that the voltage across the WFC and the choke together could theoretically be infinite.  However, to prevent the electrolysis process, the RMS voltage across the cell itself must be kept below 1.48V shouldn't it?

Further considering the resistances of the chokes that Meyers was always referring to; think about resistors in a normal circuit.  Resistors of different values will have different voltages across them.  Higher resistance equals higher voltage.  If you have 3 resistors in series in a circuit being driven by 12V with the following values: 100K, 10K, 100K; the 100K resistors will each have 5.71V while the 10K will have 0.571V.  If we apply this to the WFC, the chokes would need to have a high enough resistance to balance each other but also keep the applied RMS voltage on the WFC below 1.48V.  Although we hear Meyer's refer to 11.8K in one scenario, this would have to be tailored to each configuration.

Anyone have any thoughts about this?

TS
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 05, 2013, 05:40:49 am
My thoughts goes in the oposite direction meaning that electrolysis is a difusion limited process so there must be something beyond the elecrtolysis that meyer did and at faradays time was impossible to do.

I mean at this voltage or close to not even electrolysis happens... thoughts

Br
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 10, 2013, 15:24:56 pm
My thoughts goes in the oposite direction meaning that electrolysis is a difusion limited process so there must be something beyond the elecrtolysis that meyer did and at faradays time was impossible to do.

I mean at this voltage or close to not even electrolysis happens... thoughts

Br

Certainly nothing happens with a straight DC current.  However, pulsing 1.47V RMS with lets say spikes of 20kV.  I'm trying simulations to see if this is reasonably achievable.

TS
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 10, 2013, 19:19:12 pm
Well that would be another stuff...



Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 22, 2014, 11:12:07 am
My thoughts goes in the oposite direction meaning that electrolysis is a difusion limited process so there must be something beyond the elecrtolysis that meyer did and at faradays time was impossible to do.

I mean at this voltage or close to not even electrolysis happens... thoughts

Br

Certainly nothing happens with a straight DC current.  However, pulsing 1.47V RMS with lets say spikes of 20kV.  I'm trying simulations to see if this is reasonably achievable.

TS

Wow been over a year since this came up.   I was pondering these matters again yesterday and came to the same conclusion.  However, I wanted to respond again to the comment that  "I mean at this voltage or close to not even electrolysis happens".  My whole point is that we're not trying to achieve conventional electrolysis.  Until different rules are discovered and published we're essentially looking for the unwritten rules.   As such, a pulse of high voltage with a RMS of  less than 1.47V satisfies the high voltage requirement while at the same time theoretically preventing electrolysis from occurring and therefore allows the voltage to do the work rather than the current.

I don't recall if I managed to get a simulation to work to test last year.  But I'm hoping that someone else may take a few moments to ponder the viability of this who may be more familiar with electrical mechanics.

TS
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 23, 2014, 02:12:11 am
Hy TS long time no see!If you dont mind I would like to say to leave this theory behind,because its waistfull in the long term.I'm saying that because someone(not giving names) have done the imposible.You must figure the math on Stan's vic from tech brief and patents,estate photos,data..every data you have..winding coils randomly will get you nowere for a very long time.Hope i don't upset the man who done it but i just wanted to help and give hope to people that worked very hard on this for years...
Please don't ask for details because i dont know them either...
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 23, 2014, 05:36:14 am
I agree with you TS, we are not trying to achieve normal electrolysis..

I'm just going in different directions and trying to catch what i learn from it..

I'm sure everything is valuable testing if you take notes and change parameters to keep track of whats going on.

Today for example i discovered something really interesting... my vic is pulsing maybe over 40kv and i found that if i let a spark jump from whatever coil terminations to ground (on the yard) the amps being consumed from the circuit simply don't change now if i let a spark jump between two terminations of the coils the amps goes crazy consume a lot... The spark is even much bigger ... however..
 
But i noticed three things..

if the gas is being generated the spark is big

If theres only one connection to the cell (one wire only)  the spark to ground  is much smaller and thin.

If no connection to the cell the spark to ground is minimal...

the chokes and cell is pretty well isolated from ground... thru two isolating transformers and plexyglass.. .




Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 23, 2014, 09:20:00 am
Hy TS long time no see!If you dont mind I would like to say to leave this theory behind,because its waistfull in the long term.I'm saying that because someone(not giving names) have done the imposible.You must figure the math on Stan's vic from tech brief and patents,estate photos,data..every data you have..winding coils randomly will get you nowere for a very long time.Hope i don't upset the man who done it but i just wanted to help and give hope to people that worked very hard on this for years...
Please don't ask for details because i dont know them either...

what is this now, adys?
You come here and tell the world that somebody did exactly what Meyer did?

steve
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 23, 2014, 10:21:06 am
I did something wrong?
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 23, 2014, 22:59:03 pm
I did something wrong?
No dude.
Tell us more, please...
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 23, 2014, 23:47:10 pm
I cannot say more,just that Stan work was 100% real,the buggy running..everything.Build what Stan teaches in his Tech brief,and patents and don't wais time ''improving'' his setup,everything has very hard math on it and its not built by chance.Please don't ask for more info,i'v had an agreement with the man that i will just post that Stan was true and wanted to give you guys some hope and not waiste your time with ''exotic'' theories.
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 24, 2014, 02:27:16 am
I agree with adys at least everything stan explained except the hard science part that he hided was absolutely correct...

I'm only a bit worried about skin effects, that could get my results offset .
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 24, 2014, 03:12:04 am
could you tells us if did you see it working and how did you concluded it were or not doing something ?
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 24, 2014, 07:59:39 am
so what a professor that visited stan said he used some frequencies in his stationary setup so go search for the magic frequency  ;D
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 24, 2014, 10:49:10 am
Seb,i did not see it running, the man is not a show of,is keeping it quiet right now,but he described the workings of the vic /cells and how the whole system works and i believe him 1000%.I'm not here to prove anything,and if you don't believe its not my problem.Seb Stan did not hidden anything,its all there,the ''hiden'' science is transformer/coil,workings that you can find in any  good electronics book.
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 24, 2014, 22:17:17 pm
Seb,i did not see it running, the man is not a show of,is keeping it quiet right now,but he described the workings of the vic /cells and how the whole system works and i believe him 1000%.I'm not here to prove anything,and if you don't believe its not my problem.Seb Stan did not hidden anything,its all there,the ''hiden'' science is transformer/coil,workings that you can find in any  good electronics book.
Dear Adys,

Is it possible for you to ask this person for numbers?
I mean, how many litres of hho does he produce at how much consumed power?

thanks!
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 25, 2014, 05:17:11 am
Adys, I've got to agree.  While it's great to have hope, your comments don't really lend much to it.  It doesn't matter if the guy is or isn't a show off.  The knowledge is useless by definition if it can't be used.

TS
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 25, 2014, 09:59:23 am
I'm going to keep up with my work here since i'm pretty sure that its perfect aligned with what stan show and to those things he didn't showed!

I just found out this days how he got the charged gas and how he may have operated the thing in such a manner to create charged gas... I'm doing some test to prove that...
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 25, 2014, 11:33:49 am
Ts,my posts say little i know,but if you think about it,how many years have you worked on this, failing and wondering if this tech is true and why do i waiste my time if nobody replicated it in 15years.And the knoweledge is not useless,you dont know how to use it or where to look for,like i said i dont espect anyone to believe me,because i'm a ''nobody'' on this forum and i came out of the blue with this optimistic posts that are no backed out of any data,I'm not here to give step by step instruction,just to try kick start the forum .Its your choise,keep doing what your doing for the last 10years,or use transformer knoweledge and Stan's math..For ex.anybody done the math, for example on how many turns of wire consists on the primary coil of the vic?no,just wound it by guessing,and that will never ever work,the wire used and number of turns are precisely calculated ..

Steve,he fid not measure the gas output but he said as a reference that it is way more than this
list=UUpsGmcb7ssb85E2EKr9yrkQ

The power consumed its just like Stan said in his patent WO9207861 A Control and Driver Circuit For a Hydrogen Gas Fuel Producing Cell 
Please dont ask for details!
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 25, 2014, 12:08:59 pm
Could you at leat tell us what is wrong about our transformer knowledge? I use a design parameter acording to the core size the frequency and voltage aplied... But i found recently that its way over to many turns for the primary since my transistors use to blew alot for example... Recently i found that for my huge cores only few turns work ver well... For generating the high voltage..
I can apply up to 100v 7a it gets pretty high intense sparks all over
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 25, 2014, 16:07:56 pm
your transformer knowledge is not wrong,i just said that we need to learn from transformer based books.
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 25, 2014, 22:47:22 pm
Ts,my posts say little i know,but if you think about it,how many years have you worked on this, failing and wondering if this tech is true and why do i waiste my time if nobody replicated it in 15years.And the knoweledge is not useless,you dont know how to use it or where to look for,like i said i dont espect anyone to believe me,because i'm a ''nobody'' on this forum and i came out of the blue with this optimistic posts that are no backed out of any data,I'm not here to give step by step instruction,just to try kick start the forum .Its your choise,keep doing what your doing for the last 10years,or use transformer knoweledge and Stan's math..For ex.anybody done the math, for example on how many turns of wire consists on the primary coil of the vic?no,just wound it by guessing,and that will never ever work,the wire used and number of turns are precisely calculated ..

Steve,he fid not measure the gas output but he said as a reference that it is way more than this
list=UUpsGmcb7ssb85E2EKr9yrkQ

The power consumed its just like Stan said in his patent WO9207861 A Control and Driver Circuit For a Hydrogen Gas Fuel Producing Cell 
Please dont ask for details!

The primary is always calculated at specific frequencys, Adys.
At 10khz its between 5 and 20 windings...

Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 01:11:04 am
I hope he is not wasting your time...thought

 
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 05:43:08 am
I am the one Ady is talking about, He ask me if he could make a post here about me getting the VIC working. I am working with a team of people to get this all out for FREE. We will be showing working VIC and cells in different countries. Which will include US, Canada, New Zealand, Croatia, and Australia. We will be releasing all information soon to everyone. If you want to know how many turns are on the primary, look into impeadance transformation. If you want to know how the coils work, look into pulse forming networks. All this and more will be released soon. The best information I can give you all right now is to take the Vic  photo's of Stan's Estate that Don G. has provided for everyone and study them very well, along with the patents that go along with it. You will be amazed at what you see if you just take a hard look at the photo's.

R.Walker
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 15:41:32 pm
I for one am not telling anyone to stop doing anything at all. I encourage everyone to keep doing what they are doing. Just look at things in a different way that's all. I am not asking anyone to follow my work, and really care less if they do. But It will be out there soon for anyone that wants to know how to get there cells working. If they don't want the information they have a choice in not looking for it. George you have the same choice as well. Not here to force anything on anyone. Take care George and have a great day.
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 17:25:22 pm
Thanks for backup Ronnie!Now you believe me Seb?i think i was not waisting anybodys precious time after all....
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 18:20:11 pm
Well thanks a lot R.Walker I´m pretty happy to see your position.

I´m working exactly on those concepts like resonant charging and pulse forming networks... but very hard time =)

I wish you luck and hope to see what you indicated to see in the photos... 

Adys i´m a believer, i just crossed too many people that were not understanding what they were doing.... thats  why i was asking...

Wish i could help somehow. if i can tell me how.

Best Regards

Fabio






Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 18:26:56 pm
Well thanks a lot R.Walker I´m pretty happy to see your position.

I´m working exactly on those concepts like resonant charging and pulse forming networks... but very hard time =)

I wish you luck and hope to see what you indicated to see in the photos... 

Adys i´m a believer, i just crossed too many people that were not understanding what they were doing.... thats  why i was asking...

Wish i could help somehow. if i can tell me how.

Best Regards

Fabio

Thanks for the coming out, R Walker ;-)
I think Fabio explained my feelings as well here.
We seen so many people telling they solved Meyers techno.
Is it possible for you to share some production numbers?
This because thats the main thing, is it.
Is your system more effective then electrysis?

Steve
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 26, 2014, 21:16:06 pm
In the notes of Don, you can see that all coils are wounded and pointed in the same direction.
However...
The secondairy is hooked up to the chokes from south till south and north to north...
The 3 coils are not enhancing eachother, but are working counterparting...
Thats interesting...

Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 27, 2014, 04:11:28 am
@adys

I'm sure you didn't mean to offend but I'd like to clarify something.  You implied in an earlier post that basically we're here randomly winding wires and have no clue.  Although I am not an expert in the field, I have done a lot of study and learned a great deal about electronic "calculations" and equations for this project.  I am not a wealthy man and cannot waste money on resources to randomly hope that my efforts will result in fruition.   Although I am not personally offended by your comment, I did find your comment offensive to those of us who have spent a lot of time studying and trying to understand and replicate the application of the knowledge in the patents provided by Stan Meyer.  A lot of information is provided but obviously the correct application is not so obvious.   Otherwise it would have been replicated a long time ago.   We have all been having to rediscover the process that Meyers applied.

I do appreciate your correcting information and would love to see the applied knowledge as proof.  Until I see the proof however and am provided with the details to replicate it, the only other option is to continue with the knowledge I currently have until I am shown with evidence otherwise or until I discover evidence to the contrary.

I have no intention to offend or make presumptions in my response to you.  But as seb and Steve pointed out, there are a lot of people who have claimed to be able to explain Meyeres process but didn't get anywhere.

The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.

TS
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 27, 2014, 07:20:23 am
I´m sure he didm´t wanted to be bad with that comments..

I was looking for a good resource for pulse transformers info and i found this https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries/V5.PDF


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_forming_network

http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol09-1930/articles/bstj9-4-794.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalent_impedance_transforms


Yes Steve

From all i ever found from stan work is that those coils are actually canceling each other out... not totally but partially...

Why?

don´t know yet

but i´m sure that with the original dealership design parameters the things gets easier... =)
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 27, 2014, 08:00:53 am
did you mean to look the pictures

I see the diode maybe is connected to the case so its grounded?
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 29, 2014, 01:22:11 am
My point is this ...and you completely avoided it. Here are 4 direct questions for you:

You came to this forum and posted claiming to have discovered specific new knowledge and information
that no one else here has, yet you dont share it with anybody here. What is your purpose in doing that ?

We will be releasing all information soon to everyone.
All this and more will be released soon.

Why not share it now?  What are you waiting for?
On what specific date will you be releasing this new earth-shattering information?

Let me say this as nice as I can, I came here to let everyone know that I was the one Adys was talking about. And yes I have a working cell and am proud of it after working for 7 years to get it to work again, So that is my claim and damn proud of it. I even posted how I was going to give it away to everyone. Proud of that also. Even posted I was teaching other people in other countries how to do it as well at this time. I made what 4 post here two were scope shots and the other two were text post. I think I have answered every question that has been ask of me. I told where to look to find the right information that everyone needs to get a cell working. I was ask what cores I was using, and I posted a link to them. Told everyone that the scope shots were what people need to work toward. So I think I have answered every question that was ask of me. Now let me answer your questions. Why not share it now? answer Because I am waiting on my team members to get there electronics and coils made. Which everyone has there coils made now the last one finished his last night. I use a P-Gen to drive my electronics which can be found on the RWG forum from a member there call Gunther. We have designed a board that will give the same results as the P-Gen that all the team members will be using, and those boards just arrived last week and still have to be assembled and tested. Now once that is done and proven to work, they have to be mailed out to all Team member in the countries that I have posted. Then I have to teach all team members how to drive there coils and cells with it. I can't give you a date or time but with all that has to be done you can see that it could take at least a couple months maybe sooner. Let me say this to be clear, I didn't come here to cause a problem, nor did I come here to lay all my work in a forum that I haven't been a part of. If anything I gave some good information to the two that ask for it.
Maybe I should give a little background about myself, I had this working over 6 years ago, burnt my transformer up and never got it to work again because I didn't have a clue how I got it to work, That sent me on a quest to find the answers of how I got it to work. I worked for about 4 1/2 years alone on this and getting no where with Stan's patents. I decided to join a forum to see if I could get any answers. So I joined RWG research forum. Made my own thread there, and named it WATER FUEL CELL Technical Brief (Building, Testing and Understanding Stan's Work) There I ask one question...does anyone know how to get the capacitance of there cell or cells, I knew we had to have this information in order to move forward, without it we were wasting our time. All my meters would not give a accurate reading and I had some really good meters. Anyway there is where I did most of my work. Some things that I post was dead wrong and learned from it. And somethings were dead right and I moved on. I posted on that Thread for about a year and still make a few post ever now and then there. I have a new home now that I can keep all the clutter and deadbeats out and keep it clean now.  I looked at the thread before I posted this post and it has over 100,000 views on it now. So I must have been doing something there wouldn't you say. So just to be frank, i am not a person that just came out of nowhere, I been working on this more than likely as long as you or anyone here has. Matter a fact I joined this forum a long time back and even bought one of Tony's boards. I never posted here much at all, I think I have made a total of 8 post here, and the first post was to Tony, asking him how he got the capacitance of his cells. In which I don't think I ever got an answer. I also ask him in several email things about the board that I bought from him, with no reply.  That is more or less the reason I haven't posted here. So If you look I haven't dodged any question that has been ask of me. I'm proud of what I have done, and will share it all for free soon. I have a place I will be sharing all the information. I haven't shared where that will be, because no one has ask,  and I didn't come here to advertise another forum. As I stated in reply of your last post, I care less if anyone follows me or my work, I'm not a show-boater nor am I a know-it-all. All my credit for getting this to work again goes out to Don Gable for taking the estate photo's and Russ G. for releasing them to the public. Without the photo's to put with the patents I would still be searching for answers. Now this will more than likely be my last post here because I didn't come here to cause problems at all. So with that being said anyone that wants to know more about the release of information can email me a gpssonar@aol.com. look forward to giving this away for free.
Thanks,
R. Walker
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 29, 2014, 03:31:16 am
Thanks a lot, hopefully waiting still working on it but hoping you get the things right !

Thanks Again

Fabio
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 29, 2014, 05:16:06 am
http://hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=506

This is a way for measuring capacitance...

and this the gunther circuit he mentioned

http://open-source-energy.org/index.php?topic=469.0
Title: Re: Theory - Low RMS Voltage Across WFC Required
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 29, 2014, 10:27:41 am
as i can't see the image at the forum where this capacitance meter is provided i tried to guess how it could be constructed,, please if anyone have the original would be nice to see it around,

the second one adds a pnp mosfet to cut the r1 resistor out during the discharge...