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Engines On Water => How to run your car on hydrogen or water => Topic started by: haithar on July 15, 2010, 18:14:07 pm
Title: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 15, 2010, 18:14:07 pm
Hi, i ask myself why the spark timing is adjusted to create a spark at the top center position. We know that if water is converted to H2 and O2 the volume of the gas is in the 1:1600 range. That means when the gas is burned and converts back to water it implodes, because the volume of 1600 is converted to water with volume 1. Wouldn't the spark be best timed at the bottom center position and the resulting vacuum will pull the piston up?
Experiments regarding the implosion of HHO:
As you can see when the reaction of the gas occurs water is sucked into the reactor chamber by a vacuum. I hope you can understand what he is doing, he is explaining everything, but in german.
This is assuming that no air is mixed with the gas obviously, which would counter the implosion effect by expansion of the heated air.
Title: Re: Adjusting the burn rate
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 15, 2010, 20:01:28 pm
whoops i don't know why i called it adjusting the burn rate, will change it asap :-X
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 15, 2010, 22:06:25 pm
The question is: is the energy liberated through implosion stronger than the heat generated with combustion, which could expand a second gas (air) and move a piston like it usually happens with petrol. Or could both effects be used together for a higher efficiency..
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 15, 2010, 22:15:24 pm
Man, There is no implosion!!!
2H2 + O2 will not become liquid H20 after it recombine. It will become superheated steam. Not liquid. Only superheated steam.
Man the amount of 2H2+O2 that you need to inject inside the cylinder to have an equivalent to gasoline explosion represents only 6% of the cylinder in volume. So NO IMPLOSION. PLEASE!!!
Best Regards
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 15, 2010, 22:57:52 pm
how would you explain the experiments in the videos then?
also where do you have the 6% from? i'm interested in that, because i may be running some motor tests in the not so far future.
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 15, 2010, 23:35:14 pm
Hi haitar
I have calculated the energy content of the gasoline and compared to that of water...
But would be easier than that because meyer already gave us the amount of water that should be injected. And comparatively is quite right!
Take 7,4ul thus 0,0000074 liters and multiply it by 1800 witch is the amount of gas that this amount of water will expand into when transformed into 2h2+02. Thus you have 0,01332 liters of gas per injection or 13,32ml. So lets take 250ml per cylinder you have % =13,3*100/250 =5,3%
Actually meyers car was 1600cc thus 400ml per cylinder witch would lead you to need only 3,33% (h2+02) not only H2
Hope You understood what i mean... ( the 1800 value is not correct so you should expect an increment in % also because the temperature would increment a few ok)
I didn't watched yet to the video but i'm going to...
Best regards
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 00:12:37 am
I think he's right, it would be steam, because it releases energy, exothermic reaction, it would only turn to water if you removed this heat... but when you heat things they expand, so it would go counter to your implosion suction... I don't understand the german in the videos.
Anyway, test the theory and see if you could make something like that work
I do agree that the exothermic energy released will most likely heat the created water-molecules so much that they will (probably) convert to steam. One would have to calculate to get the temperature and state of matter the water/steam is in, this is important to know the density of the created steam. On the other hand it's possible that the enthalpy of the gas is given off to the outside and the steam is quickly converted into water again.
The video shows the following: A HHO generator is plugged into the top connection of the reactor chamber, the bottom connection is connected to the water reservoir seen. there are two valves above and beneath the reactor which can be closed and opened. The reactor has a cable which creates a spark to ignite the HHO mix.
In the first video they ignite the HHO (top valve is open) and see what happens: The water is is sucked into the reaction chamber, the result of underpressure in the chamber after the reaction. They try different versions with valves closed, open, ... In the third video they test different hose diameters and watch how long it takes for the water to go into the reaction chamber.
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 03:41:18 am
Hello,
Is easy to know if water will become liquid again or if it will become steam, however there is still a problem related to the relation between temperature/pressure/state but ... Lets calculate it together...
Knowing that 1 mole of water totalize 1 mole of hydrogen H2 + 1/2 mole of oxygen O2 and that it means 18g of water, and that water have a specific heat that makes that 1g water raise _1__ degrees Celsius ° applying to it __1__ calories, and also knowing that water to change state (liquid to gas) needs yet another + amount of energy. 40kj per gram
1° how much energy 1 mole of hydrogen H2 + 1/2 mole of oxygen O2 reforming into water release? What is the heat of forming of water? H2(g) + 1/2 O2 (g) H2O (g) The heat of formation of water vapor is -241.8 kJ. (Why is this negative? - heat isreleased!)
2° Conversion kJ x cal
241.9 kJ = 57766.7 cal
So reforming 1 mole of water witch is 18g releases 57766.7 calories
3° 57766.7 cal divided by 18 grams should raise the temperature of water of 3.209° Celcius
Therefore as water was previously gas before exploding i really think that it will become only superheated steam...
However lets calculate further ...
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 07:44:58 am
just a point in fact in order for it to be steam you will need heat. If there is no heat there is no steam. Once water splits it occupies more "space" than the water did. but your implosion method is flaw in 2 ways. For this to work you would need to do the molecule splitting intside the cylinder and it would need to be full. The full part also relates to the recombination of the water as if its not a pure mix (ie ambient is added) it is no longer implosive. Thats my recolection of how it works, feel free to tell me i am wrong though :)
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 10:40:43 am
i hate this forum, second time my post got deleted and isn't shown >:(
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 10:43:37 am
Sorry let me reword, A certain amount of heat is required. Now if you can disperse the heat over that point then your in business... also the process of liquid to gas has a cooling effect :)
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 11:19:37 am
Therefore as water was previously gas before exploding i really think that it will become only superheated steam...
However lets calculate further ...
I do agree as i said that the released heat will probably be enough to convert the water into steam. However 1. how long will it be steam before it has given the heat off to the surrounding environment (chassis) and condenses? 2. the expansion water to gas will make 1860 volume-units out of 1 volume-unit. steam however, depending on temperature, will have less than 1860 volume-units for 1 volume-unit of water -> underpressure
The molecules would not need to be split inside the cylinder, but it would be of advantage: 1. water drops in (when piston is at top center) 2. electricity through it, water drops expand, pressure moves piston down 3. when piston is down (shortly after bottom center), ignite the gas -> water/steam conversion, pressure sinking rapidly (assumption), heat created 4. underpressure sucks piston up 5. repeat
I'm sure this would not work because of some mistake, i didn't look into a thermodynamics book and probably someone else has thought this through already.
It seems that there is an explosion, then an implosion overall:
edit: oh wow hho + steam:
Nice channel, someone uses a 1000FPS camera.
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 16:28:40 pm
Haitar,
You know what? I think that maybe you are kind right. Think with me:
There was a paper i read that tell you to change the moment of the spark. Maybe a little bit after the compression cycle. I don't remember exactly... maybe is because water somehow lose its energy and become liquid... If you get to think, the heat of fusion of water is 40kj per gram. So if we have -241kJ per 18g = 13kj gram is way less energy than 40kj gram... so if we could find a way to make this water to give its heat of to the air making it to become liquid we would have 13kj+40kj per gram of water. You understand what i mean?
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 16, 2010, 16:41:40 pm
Wow maybe thats why meyer heated the water. (to adjust the point where it would kind give all its energy and become cool liquid....
And maybe thats why he used ionized gas. (to allow for a grater conduction of heat inside the engine)
Maybe
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 20, 2010, 17:26:03 pm
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 20, 2010, 18:33:13 pm
Carbide
could you explain? How much hho you putting in ? Temperature? how much vacuum is it creating?
Thanks
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on July 20, 2010, 21:20:45 pm
Unsure how much HHO there was but its running about 200 watts at 75 deg, you can see the time from the vid. There's about 6" of pipe in the cell (water bottle). So its not a lot of HHO. When the flywheel is horizontal 90deg the piston is just above the exhaust port. When it's at 120deg the exhaust port is open. With this test it pulls about 15in vac. With other tests its been higher than 30in.
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 04, 2010, 22:01:16 pm
friend, you do not change the timing to get implosion, you instead change the gas so it does implode then you change the timing so it will implode in the engine.
meyer talked of implosion, joecell gas implodes and geet gas can implode (forgot to add browns gas also).
Charlie.
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 05, 2010, 11:41:55 am
friend, you do not change the timing to get implosion, you instead change the gas so it does implode then you change the timing so it will implode in the engine.
meyer talked of implosion, joecell gas implodes and geet gas can implode.
Charlie.
Charlie,
After running multiple engines on HHO i can inform you that HHO is an exploding gas. The funny thing with burning HHO is that the leftover product is h2o. What you see is that the gasius state of HHO returns to a liquid h2o state. That last part reacts as implosion.
So, first explosion, followed by implosion..
regards Steve
Title: Re: spark timing for implosion?
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 06, 2010, 08:39:39 am
After running multiple engines on HHO i can inform you that HHO is an exploding gas. The funny thing with burning HHO is that the leftover product is h2o. What you see is that the gasius state of HHO returns to a liquid h2o state. That last part reacts as implosion.
So, first explosion, followed by implosion..
regards Steve
the joe cell people have said that they have had to advance the spark into the compression cycle to make their engine run. i do really believe that the joe cell gas implodes, but im not really interested in joe cells due to reliability even though i have come up with some theoretical improvements to that.
im interested in meyers method because it will run better and wont effect the weather, if i can ionise the output gas then maybe i will think of implosion but thats for another day.