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Projects by members => Projects by members => Steve => Topic started by: Steve on September 05, 2009, 17:20:46 pm

Title: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 17:20:46 pm
Hi folks,

Tests also continue on the wfc part.
The setup is a my 10 tube cell with just a squarewave generator hooked to it.
So, no fancy coils or whatever.
The strange thing is that AFTER the ON pulse, the setup shows a resonance ring of around 13mhz in frequency.
The pulse of the generator is in my case 33.3khz.

Can anyone here confirm the same fenomenon with his or her cell?
Keep all wires short. I ran with 5 Volts and also on 12V. It didnt matter.
I used tapwater. With and without NAOH.

Still the same reaction.
Please your comments on this!

Steve



Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 17:47:48 pm
which type of power supply did you use?
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 17:54:50 pm
which type of power supply did you use?

1 normal stabilized lab powersupply.
0-30V
No rimples. I even added a big cap, but no changes.


Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 19:37:30 pm
my guess would be that the cap discharges very fast (as you said no coil -> very tiny discharge time (t = C * R)) and charges with reverse polarity, then discharges again until all energy is lost. then it waits for the new pulse and again..
well but that does not make sense either.. there is no resonant coil to exchange energy with ..
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 19:59:20 pm
my guess would be that the cap discharges very fast (as you said no coil -> very tiny discharge time (t = C * R)) and charges with reverse polarity, then discharges again until all energy is lost. then it waits for the new pulse and again..
well but that does not make sense either.. there is no resonant coil to exchange energy with ..

I thought that my wires where acting like a coil, but i played with them and no change...
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 21:40:37 pm
what type of current probe are you using?
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 05, 2009, 22:17:52 pm
That looks likE parasitic inductance from your probe stevie .

with this 555 i use it always does that when I use this cheap home-made probe .

When I ise my pro tektronik 10x probe it never does that however .

I am 100% positive that this is due to parasitic inductance , your first pulse is negative voltage after the falling edge  ....

It is also not good for components , I used to fry my cmos when I used my homemade probe . Your problem seems quite severe .
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 06, 2009, 00:41:51 am
That looks likE parasitic inductance from your probe stevie .

with this 555 i use it always does that when I use this cheap home-made probe .

When I ise my pro tektronik 10x probe it never does that however .

I am 100% positive that this is due to parasitic inductance , your first pulse is negative voltage after the falling edge  ....

It is also not good for components , I used to fry my cmos when I used my homemade probe . Your problem seems quite severe .

I dont think it is the probe, but i will try 2 other brand probes that i have and see what is happening.

Steve
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 06, 2009, 00:44:00 am
what type of current probe are you using?

Thats the only thing i dont have, newguy. Only basic probes and 1 HV probe.
Maybe i can make a current probe with a coil or something.

Steve
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 06, 2009, 01:14:58 am
we gotta have a current probe, been needing one myself
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2009, 02:34:28 am
Steve,your seeing a resonance ring for sure.Have you checked the generator by its self without the cell hooked up?This may tell you if it's just the generator.Other wise,thats the frequency your cell is resonating at.Your seeing a ring just as if you were doing a hammer test on hydraulics.You can see the same effect in Spice also.
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2009, 04:14:49 am
Try a Different Gap size, a single cell. See how this effects your Amplitude, Add salt, Did it effect the amplitude?

Simple test, Simple answer.

Try a long tube, Try a short one, Try even a Plate, Try 3. Remove the Water stevie, Use Baby oil. Any change?

Where must this Ringing be coming from? This ringing is a sign of something that is at resonance for a short periode, We all know there is no Perpetual resonance. Get to the bottom of it. I also got this same wave form with chokes when i first got an oscilliscope, However i didn't pay any attention to it and it never got my attention, I figured since i was using chokes, that it was just the chokes ringing. However, you didn't use chokes so,, I'm kinda interested now in where this ringing might be coming from!
 
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2009, 15:11:39 pm
the only thing i can think of is maybe the cell took on some charge, then there is a resistive resonant discharge happening.. during off time.. 

 i was sitting next to a piece of heavy equipment the other day the bucket was off the ground like 4 feet.. tractor was off.. its a older tractor and doesnt have the best performance.. leaky hydraulics... anyways sitting there i could hear a popping noise of the buckets joints because the hydralic cylinder was slowy leaking..  every little pop noise the bucket would drop a hair.. the point of this story is it would go into resonance.. meaning the pops would happen every 4 seconds or so... the bucket in the air is equivalent to potential charge that is built up.. the slow leaky discharge is eqivalent to resistive discharge... it will always tune into its own pace (resonance) of discharge determind buy the weight, height and malfunction of the hydraulics.
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 09, 2009, 22:35:00 pm
Ok,

I just removed the wfc from the circuit/FET.
So circuit, without load.

Now there are still some ringings. Less high and less impressive.
The scope setting are not changed between the 2 pictures here.
The big ringing thing is WITH my waterfuelcell.
It puzzles me a bit.

Steve



Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 10, 2009, 02:39:27 am
Measure between the gate and ground of the fet, see what that shows. I remember, They use to use the 2n3055's and take them apart, They would use them for some sorta Energy generator like a solar cell, Or, it could have been a Thermo Generator. I forgot.

It is less impressive because the fet is not under load. Remember how it wasn't so easy to get the alternator to go into loop mode, There must be some conduction before the fet will work properly. If you was to replace certon Loads, with Say a Led Light running to a fet, "It is possible the Led will not be conductive enough to cause the fet to kick on." This is why it is more impressive with the wfc, or load.
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 10, 2009, 15:36:12 pm
Measure between the gate and ground of the fet, see what that shows. I remember, They use to use the 2n3055's and take them apart, They would use them for some sorta Energy generator like a solar cell, Or, it could have been a Thermo Generator. I forgot.

It is less impressive because the fet is not under load. Remember how it wasn't so easy to get the alternator to go into loop mode, There must be some conduction before the fet will work properly. If you was to replace certon Loads, with Say a Led Light running to a fet, "It is possible the Led will not be conductive enough to cause the fet to kick on." This is why it is more impressive with the wfc, or load.

I will do some measuring on the gate. I also will do this test with 2n3055 transistors and see what that brings.

Steve
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 12, 2009, 13:04:17 pm
Next tests are done. Same frequencys (between 1 and 40khz) as earlier. Same water. New water. With and without Naoh.

I used a 2n3055 transistor, which is ofcourse a different type of switch. No fancy diodes build etc.

As you can see, the voltage starts with a ring and thats what i also saw on the FET. However, the effect lasted very shortly with the FET.
The second interesting observation is that at the start of the off periode, you see a big/hugh negative dip on the scope. Thats exactly the same as with the FET, but someway the FET is demping the dip and that results in that nice ringing.
The transistor doesnt have all those demping diode stuff.

The question is now: Where does that hugh dip come from?
Is that the dip Stan Meyer was extracting?
More to come.

Steve

Ps,

The other picture was taken with the same 2n3055 but higher in frequency ( ca. 1mhz). That took the first ringing in an upwards wave and as soon as that ring was done, the off time started of the 50% DUTY.







Title: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd: OU results...
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 12, 2009, 20:37:19 pm
The idea of using this negative dip in comby with coils is exact what Stan and Dave did with the alternator schematics.

If you use  as Input of the coils a 50% duty then the output of my setup is strait DC.
The current on input is almost half of the current that goes into the waterfuelcell.
Voltage is input 50% and on the waterfuelcell strait dc but lower, of course.

Here are numbers. Make up your minds.

Input coils:
6.98V/2 x 0.14A = 0.49Watts

Input waterfuelcell:
2.57V x 0.26A = 0.67Watts

Thats 36% more out then in, is it.
Anyway, i think the dip is re-used in this coil setup.



Steve
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 02:41:34 am
hmm? where does the dip come from again?

you are putting in positive DC voltage and you get a negative dip? is this what you mean?

you caught my attention, tell me more :)
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 04:11:57 am
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=311.0
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 09:54:32 am
hmm? where does the dip come from again?

you are putting in positive DC voltage and you get a negative dip? is this what you mean?

you caught my attention, tell me more :)

Donald,

Yes, thats what i mean.
Why is this triggering you?


Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 10:43:56 am
They say that the tubes are having a magnetic field.
Am i right?
So, if there is a current in the tubes that creates a magnetic field, then the magnetic field collapses like a coil, is it?

Anybody agree on this?

Steve
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 12:40:39 pm
Isnt this simply a case of feeding the cell with said resonant frequency and seeing what happens, rather than wondering where it comes from etc?
 ???
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 15:03:53 pm
What causes the negative dip, you guess it might be back emf from the tubes? I'm probably more confused than anything, I just wouldn't expect to see that.
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 18:30:08 pm
This is simply Stevie's transistor not working right .


Stevie , that picture you showed is a classic curve , I can show you the same exact curve with this 2n4401 ,  nothing but a saturated transistor that has problems getting unsaturated .  Your transistor is probably dissipating that missing power . This is due to excessive base current and too large a storage time . That is why we use High-power MOSFETS for pulsing applications , not transistors .

Nothing special here Stevie ... Anybody who played with transistors in his lifetime saw that curve before  .

http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/bakerclamp.html
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 18:50:03 pm
This is simply Stevie's transistor not working right .


Stevie , that picture you showed is a classic curve , I can show you the same exact curve with this 2n4401 ,  nothing but a saturated transistor that has problems getting unsaturated .  Your transistor is probably dissipating that missing power . This is due to excessive base current and too large a storage time . That is why we use High-power MOSFETS for pulsing applications , not transistors .

Nothing special here Stevie ... Anybody who played with transistors in his lifetime saw that curve before  .

http://home.mira.net/~gnb/audio/bakerclamp.html

Second picture is just for fun, if thats the pci you refering too.

Steve
Title: Re: Waterfuelcell resonance action discoverd
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 13, 2009, 19:44:57 pm
They say that the tubes are having a magnetic field.
Am i right?
So, if there is a current in the tubes that creates a magnetic field, then the magnetic field collapses like a coil, is it?

Anybody agree on this?

Steve

Yes the the SS tubes is magnetic. The more current into the cell the more magnetic the tubes become, This is why the copper wires going to your fuel cell from the alternator Jumps and dances, It is a magnetic dance. So at 30 amps the wires will be dancing pretty good with magnetics. The higher the voltage the more the electric field, The higher the amperage the more the magnetic field, High voltage has low magnetic fields and high electric fields, Low voltage has Low electric fields and very high magnetic fields.

A magnetic field has magnet Properties, It effects anything magneticaly attracted. A Voltage field is like a magnetic field, But, a voltage field can be used to attract things like Paper, where a magnetic field has no effect on paper. Getting a magnetic field along side a Electric field is somewhat difficult because it is difficult to have high voltages at very high amp flow. You can see how the 2 is different. A voltage field that effects and attracts or repels paper etc,, has an electrical Force on objects unlike the magnetic field.

It only takes 1 wire to cause an electric field, For example; A high voltage wire from a Tv coil, or high voltage coil could be used to pick up paper, Like a van de graaf.

Aluminum and copper is magneticaly attracted and repelled objects thats almost always overlooked. If you can pass current threw a object, it can be magneticaly affected.