Author Topic: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........  (Read 22633 times)

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2012, 21:31:32 pm »
thats cool Komtek,

I found one person who still has his project pictures up on oupower.com with his try at Bobs stuff from 5 years ago.Im not sure if Kumaran is still expierimenting or not but he did find that the TL494 is more stable than the 556 with the 42.8 pulse.
http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_Other_Peoples_Projects/kumaran&DrillDown=yes )
His combined waveforms at the secondary are not good..
When you get around to tunning your board it wont seem as complicated once you see how the waveforms are suppost to look.You will understand the slight phase diffrence is whats required to get the disired waveform.Openning up the 10.7 1/5 from its fastest rise and fall time allows the next one to do its thing and then openning up the 20 somethin 1/10 of its fastest rise and fall times allows it to do the same,by then the 42.8 has plenty of room to do its thing without adjustment.
I

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2012, 23:03:50 pm »
That's nice to be able to look at someone else's project.
Although its pretty far off the recommended (wire) material and size this is something to take a look at.
Thanks for posting the link.
Yes I have heard or other timers that seem to be more stable.

I have 3 cells that are the same 13 plate cells, maybe I could connect some power supplys and alter the voltage variables and connect these in series and start experimenting a little.
I'll look into this.
 

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2012, 13:15:07 pm »
Hi folks,

A part of the Boyce build is the famous toroid.

For those who are not really well educated in electronics, i have here for you a NOMOGRAM.
If you want to have the most optimum G factor in your coils or LC circuits, this is your guide.
Find your frequency, then you know which Henry's and or Farads you need...

Steve

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #83 on: December 24, 2012, 22:21:33 pm »
Nice Steve!
Thanks for posting the graph.

Merry Christmas all!

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2012, 02:49:46 am »
Yes  Steve, Thanks for the graph. This addresses some of the questions I have been asking. Maybe now I can take some readings from my setup and learn how to apply some of this. I started this thread to get input on tuning and modifying this circuit and have not been disappointed. Many good ideas here already. I could use some suggestions on taking measurements without the benefit of a lot of expensive equipment. At this point I`m more interested in tweeking what I have before I add any else to the equation. Many thanks to all who have chimed in so far.     

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2013, 17:45:34 pm »
Here's another file that has good explaination of the Boyce cell/stack and toroid.

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #86 on: February 08, 2013, 21:21:34 pm »
NickRanger,
Here is a link to a nice forum post at Rwg, it contains info on impedance matching and resonance.
I'm thinking this would be helpfull to make your 101 plate cell a resonant system rather than the Boyce LEM system.
My first thought is the total resistance of your cell would be a starting point.
Next a choice must be made of the frequency which also could be a harmonic number of your choice.
From here it starts getting deeper, wire size/turns core material.
So far from what I have read maybe start with only impedance matching on this circuit.
Maybe later you/we can add in capacitive portion of resonance.

There are a couple video's I liked on youtube referenced from that rwg post.
This gives some understanding to get you started:

advancedH20

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Re: 101 plate cell, G board and Toroid ..........
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2014, 03:33:15 am »
Hi NickRanger,
 I do have some input regarding the choke and capacitors if this may help you a bit. The circuit is a low pass filter, 12db per octave as used in audio systems to limit upper frequencies from running into the circuit. From my experience, I am seeing that the cell has wired into it, going to the cell, one coil in series, and one cap of 470 microfarads. I tested the cell, with the exact amount of electrolyte in it and I am coming up with 1-2 ohms. This means nothing. We need to obtain the actual impedance of the cell , and this has to be done with an  impedance meter, which test the impedance while the circuit is powered up. Plus, a 12dB low pass filter circuit for a 1 ohm load that uses a 470 Microfarad capacitor would be filtering out every frequency above 150 Hz at 1 ohm, but, would change by double the frequency at 2 ohms. The cell will not perform as expected, nor could the pwm even work with this type of circuit because all of the high frequency harmonics would be filtered out.

I am having the same difficulty getting the FETs not to fry, but, if you have wired the tpu's secondary coil in series with the cell or load, you should have a massive output of 15-18 liters per minute, and 4.9-5.9 amps at 120 volts AC at your rectifier, or even less on the dc side of the rectifier. The coil doesn't even have to have the primary side of the coil energized to get a massive output. I am pretty confident that the schematic isn't correctly showing the primary coil lengths, because the fets are not in saturation on my pwm3g, and they smoke out instantly, especially if i wire them directly with no fuse, the board's traces burn off instantly.

20 windings is what the diagram shows, and if you double this, there still isn't enough resistance in the primary coil to allow the circuit to be energized without a blatent short circuit, heat release from tpu, or FET frying happening. My calculations are showing a bare minimum of 60 turns on the primary, and 600 turns minimum on the secondary coil. If you look at SM's primary coils, his FETs dont burn up like this because he has to have a bare minimum of 300 turns to create a high enough resistance to allow the FET to operate correctly and remain energized. I am seriously looking into replacing the mosfets with IGBT's due to their liking of high amperage and high frequency. MOSFET's are terrible for the high frequencies at a heavy load and are nearly impossible to drive the loads necessary to get this to work. The key here I think is to get the primaries energized and turn on the secondary feed at the same time. What Bob I think is implementing here is a small "AC" high frequency pulse over the dc to give the circuit the " Battery Charger" effect. This is easily obtained with the rectifier, without the pwm circuit and the Toroid, but, to make much more sense,  I am leaning more toward the SM 9xb circuit to get merely the same result that Bob is trying to show is possible here. I truly believe that the circuit that Bob is sending out to the public is shown completely wrong and we must figure this all out ourself without any help, and it is difficult to figure out the things that are wrong here.

I believe the toroid needs to be wired in parallel on the secondary to obtain a low amperage output at a high frequency, but, the chokes need to be changed, as well as the caps. The filtering out of the low frequencies completely eliminates the process that is being given from the pwm3g if you look at it from far away, because anything over either 150hz or 300 hz is being filtered out by the coil and capacitor on the positive side. We also have this on the negative side, so, we are filtering on both ends, and I am not sure what this accomplishes, maybe even limiting that very same frequency range from the other end of the spectrum.

I noticed that if we just rectify the ac 120 volt mains voltage, and then add the low pass filter to the pos and neg of the cell output, we change the amperage in my experiment from 15-18amps ac down to 5.5-7 amps, from 1.3rd to 1/2 of the amperage. The cell still rocks out 5 liters per minute, but I am not using a BB 101 plate series electrolyser in this test. So, in the end, the output if wired as said in his documents, series through the secondary coil will give full rated output just as if it were plugged into the wall, because there is nothing additive to the circuit that I could find due to the output filters. I found the value of the choke for the cell in a crossover chart, and it happens to be 1.8 mH if you have a 1ohm impedance, as well, the cap will be 470 Microfarad. I had trouble obtaining a 450 microfarad at 200 volts, because nobody makes this, so, I used two 470 mfd and  2 .8 mH coils in series to get 1.6 mH, since I have had trouble locating a 1.7 mH inductor choke that is anywhere near the ampacity desired.

I ordered a bulk order of chokes from EBAY, which come from China. They are open coil, and shouldn't be covered as HydrogenGarage sells because they heat up. If these heat up, the field and inductance changes. The Toroid certainly will not be able to obtain any "environmental" energy if it is kept in a Faraday Cage, so I have left all of the coils open to absorb energy, but, I really don't think this is what happens anyway. I am quite certain that the Toroid is taking free electrons from the air surrounding the toroid, this is why Bob leaves the Faraday enclosure vented, so air could come in instead of creating a vacuum inside once the additional free electrons have been absorbed. The air will move anyway due to the heat the Toroid produces. I am thinking that the cell wilol have to be a series electrolyser with no electrolyte when starting so we do not overheat the FETs from the start. I also think the cell should be conditioned using the toroid and not any other source due to the miniscule output that could be obtained if we vary the ac voltage with a variac or similar.

I have seen a post by Bob that states that the Peak to Peak voltage of the pulses should be 30 volts peak to peak. We wont obtain this with 12volts dc input to the pwm3g. This will have to be raised, so, a variable dc power supply must be used to obtain this waveform, which I think is critical to stop the FETs from overheating or being driven to saturation. The FET's are close to their limit at the frequency because he says we have to dial the pulse width down as far as possible. On output 1, I get 22,400 hz from the 556 if I go all the way in with the width. If I back it out a hair, I am able to obtain the frequency desired, but, the output is just at the edge of saturation. Once a load is added to the FET at high frequency, it goes into complete saturation and smokes the FET very easily. I think the load is way too much from the primary coils, so, if we put many more turns on the primary, it will not do this, but, we still have to have the correct turns ratio for the secondary to obtain the desired output. Our secondary coil still has 120 volts-150 volts dc coming through from, the rectifier, so, we do not need to have to match this voltage but, the turns ratio should be 10 times. He says 20 turns primary and 140 turns on the secondary. This would give you a 1:7 ratio, which would turn a pulsed 14 volts into 98 volts. I have built the toroid 3 different ways. I have taken the time to do what I think will work, and that is 300 turns per primary coil, and then secondary is 3000 turns. If you watch Bob's interview on Youtube which is over 1 hour long, look at the thickness of his toroid. It is huge. Also, it doesn't matter what type of primary wire you use, just as long as it is enameled and wrapped tightly. Spacing is not critical per turn just as long as we have 300 turns per phase. The secondary only needs the proper amount of winding in different layers, which will either need to be insulated between layers, or use a ptfe jacketed solid core wire as he does, we just need to be sure the primary coils could handle the ampacity because the pwm will be driving the coils pretty hard. If we have  14 volts driving the system, and the coils built as I stated, the load will be split because the secondary is in series. So this eliminates 1/2 of the calculated load from the FETS. The FETS would absorb 40-50  amps if the secondaries were in parallel with the cell. This isn't the case, so, some of the load will be eliminated. What the public doesn't see is that there are 2 sources of load in this circuit. They are only seeing 4-5 amps driving the cell from the rectified feed (ac mains) There will also be an additional 20 plus amp load if the pwm powers the primary coils effectively because they are driving the secondary as well with 1/2-1/3rd of the normal rated load it should normally put out if the secondary was wired in parallel to the cell. Basically what I am getting at is the fact that we are driving a transformer that has a load on it. If the primary was say 10 volts, and the windings were a 1:10 ratio, we would get 100 volts out. If the secondary was built as a standard transformer, we would only get ac voltage out of the transformer unless we rectify it, but, we would absorb 100% of the load of the cell if wired in parallel from the secondary to the cell. I am stating we have two separate feeds here on Bob's system, and it isn't looking like power is coming from anywhere other than the pwm (1/3rd to 1/2 of the power) and 50 -75% is coming from the rectified and filtered AC mains.

Where else is theToroid supposed to be getting it's energy? It doesn't have a massive antenna coming from it, nor does it have a big open coil that's grounded on one end to obtain voltage from the clouds, or anywhere else. The Bias is basically just making the magnetic flux flow in one direction to make the system more efficient as Charles Flynn's invention does. Let's not look too deep here because I have a feeling there isn't the correct data left here for anybody to build this correctly. I have been working on this for quite some time now, and nobody has offered their assistance. If Bob had the ability to help,. we would all be in governmental jeopardy .

Try my windings with a smaller, maybe 24 gauge wire for the primaries, and then wire the secondary to give 10 times the input and i bet you will obtain some sort of effective result . The low pass filters (chokes and caps) will still reduce the amperage, but, they will reduce the out put due to the higher frequencies being completely filtered out.

Oh, BTW, avalanche is absolutely normal with transistors, so, when having a high voltage bias and a low voltage bias, be sure to wrap enough windings so you have a low enough load, and keep the cell or a dummy load wired into the circuit so you do not get this. I have driven mine into avalanche and no lightning occured other than the bolt that comes out of the toroid due to the heavy magnetic vortex that was created. The transformer will output 3 times the load, and 3 times the voltage using a High Bias, so, you may get 600-1000 volts, which will feel like lightning, but, it can be very dangerous since it will have 3 times the current, and be just like being hit by a high voltage power line. Mine discharged to the ground behind my station, so, I was very fortunate. I didn't see clouds being manufactured or anything of the sort.  The magnetic field will be very weak at a heavy load, at merely 38 turns as Bob states, so, you will only load up the power supply and it will not do a thing. . Look up online how to build an electromagnet. The videos will prove that you will need hundreds if not thousands of turns to make this very effective and have nearly no load, creating a very strong field. This is nothing new, Charles Flynn has created this, and applied it to his transformer's magnetic core to make them 3 times as efficient as they normally would be. (source:
) Thane Hiens, Charles Flynn, and others have done this, which their ouputs differed a bit in similar ways. Thane used two cores in one unit to eliminate the flux from the primary coil, and flynn used the magnet to make the flux resistance free. Magnetic flux has resistance just like an electric circuit, but, of course our laws of physics that were do9cumented must have left this out whenm they wrote the books because they make it look like we are breaking the laws of physics when we use a magnet to a core, it is really only allowing 100% of the power to be released, and we normally see massive 70% loss in this situation without a magnetic bias. Bob didn't invent this, he saw this in his research from guys like Flynn, Hendershot, and many others, and there is another fellow named Zeeman who built the magnetic bias for substation power, which is still used till this day. (called Zeeman's Energy) There are all sorts of methods out there, but, I don't think this circuit will consist of "Longitudinal Energy", or power from the skies. The word Longitudinal merely means it is acquired "length wise", and i think this was made up to rename the energy gained by the magnetic flux efficiency that's created by the electromagnetic winding or "bias winding" that's all!!

Regards,
AdvancedH20

Okay, Let me say from the start a lot of this is over my head already, but I will tell you what I have done and my results so far. First at 160vdc [1.6v per plate] and no leaks or bypass you have no production. Zero, zzzzillch. 50% duty cycle is about the best you could hope for on the g board with out frying the fets, but this is opposite of what you want.  According to Bob and others a very fast,sharp rise and fall times is what is needed to tap the ZPE. To achieve this, the duty cycle needs to be between 90 and 95%. Since this board switches neg.this is 5 to 10% on time. At these settings, the output of the board is about 12.5 to 13vdc and about 35milamps. Absolutely no production at these low voltages. I have sat for hours on end slowly turning the fine trimpots, going thru the complete range on all 3 freq. at many different duty cycles. As you said earlier, many different things going on here. On one hand we are to believe that this fast ,sharp rise in switching times is what is needed to disturb  the zero point energys and to get our gain, [many at this site agree with this]. At this low power I can not see how the freq. can have any effect on the cell. I have seen nothing yet. I have went the 50, 60% duty cycle way as well, burning up many fets and caps . Even tried replacing them with heaver ones with no different results. Back to the chokes.  I have tried solid copper, stranded and even bifiller with several different cores. [in the early D9 docs. there was no specs given]. Shouldn`t  the chokes help contain the freq. to inside the cell to get resonance ? I can see my 3 freq. behind the bridge and have seen it at the battery as well.