Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: timeshell on November 30, 2013, 17:35:30 pm

Title: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2013, 17:35:30 pm
In order to build up a charge high enough on water without breaking its dielectric value via electrolysis, it must be necessary to use tubes with a secondary dielectric whose constant is greater than the water itself.  We don't want this secondary dielectric to break down before the water does since we want the the water to be pulled apart by the pulsing high electric fields, not running current.  I don't think it's just resistance we're looking for, we're looking for the perfect self healing insulator; such as an oxide that automatically regenerates and has a greater dielectric constant than water.  This must be part of the composition of the steel tubes.

Thoughts?

TS
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2013, 17:55:49 pm
GO
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2013, 17:57:30 pm
GO

GO?
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2013, 18:25:31 pm
from wiki

benzene
teflon film
mica
diamond
vacuum??? highest dielectric strenght 10^12
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2013, 18:37:14 pm
GRAPHITE OXIDE dielectric constant is not easy to discover bc with different prod. methods you get different results
if graphene  film is tore it takes on other elements to keep it's hexagonal structure making it hybridized , GO is hydrophillic G is not

search paper: Functional Graphene for High Dielectric Performance Polymer Composites     one has 1000 and H2O has around 80...

Water inside the low-dimensional carbon structures has been considered seriously owing to fundamental
interest in its flow and structures as well as its practical impact. Recently, the anomalous perfect penetration
of water through graphene oxide membrane was demonstrated although the membrane was impenetrable
for other liquids and even gases. The unusual auxetic behavior of graphene oxide in the presence of water
was also reported. Here, on the basis of first-principles calculations, we establish atomistic models for
hybrid systems composed of water and graphene oxides revealing the anomalous water behavior inside the
stacked graphene oxides. We show that formation of hexagonal ice bilayer in between the flakes as well as
melting transition of ice at the edges of flakes are crucial to realize the perfect water permeation across the
whole stacked structures. The distance between adjacent layers that can be controlled either by oxygen
reduction process or pressure is shown to determine the water flow thus highlighting a unique water
dynamics in randomly connected two-dimensional spaces.
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on November 30, 2013, 22:19:54 pm
Um.  Ok
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 05:04:53 am
I have tried many things, what happens is that water attacks every thing is comes into contact with. In my experiments I would always get arc thru on the layer. 

It did cross my mind last week that Something worth trying would be polyester casting resin. (fiberglass resin) And I would use aluminum for the conductors. Another thing I was going to try was Polyurethane with a catalyst. (which I have used on motorcycle gas tanks for a clear coat)  I sprayed it on some aluminum foil and it bonded well, hard as a rock after about 3 days. I haven't got back to that project yet, but I think it will work.
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 05:50:22 am
I have tried many things, what happens is that water attacks every thing is comes into contact with. In my experiments I would always get arc thru on the layer. 

It did cross my mind last week that Something worth trying would be polyester casting resin. (fiberglass resin) And I would use aluminum for the conductors. Another thing I was going to try was Polyurethane with a catalyst. (which I have used on motorcycle gas tanks for a clear coat)  I sprayed it on some aluminum foil and it bonded well, hard as a rock after about 3 days. I haven't got back to that project yet, but I think it will work.

However the dielectric constants of both these appears to be lower than water.  Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't be self healing when broken down.

A metal alloy with a component that oxidizes having a dielectric constant greater than water seems to me to be the most practical as it would be self healing in the case that it does break down.  The gated pulse should also provide time for the broken dielectric to heal.  Ultimately, I think the water needs to be as isolated from the electric current to the extreme degree possible for this to have chance of working at all.

TS
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 10:38:19 am
I don't know of any metal oxides that heal on their own ... if you send me a circuit I can try with GO in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 13:51:27 pm
I don't know of any metal oxides that heal on their own ... if you send me a circuit I can try with GO in a few weeks.

If the alloy used has a metal that oxidizes in its composition, it will self heal by reacting with the electric current and the water!  In this way self healing.

TS
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 16:27:49 pm
graphene is not an insulator , graphene oxide is...
Quote
If the alloy used has a metal that oxidizes in its composition, it will self heal by reacting with the electric current and the water!  In this way self healing.
  no .. no.. no in this way self-rusting  ;) :D  send me a circuit I can try it with GO
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 17:10:14 pm
graphene is not an insulator , graphene oxide is...
Quote
If the alloy used has a metal that oxidizes in its composition, it will self heal by reacting with the electric current and the water!  In this way self healing.
  no .. no.. no in this way self-rusting  ;) :D  send me a circuit I can try it with GO

Not all oxides are "rust".  Rust is iron oxide.
There are numerous gating pulse circuits to try out there.

TS
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 19:06:39 pm
I'm also studying chemistry ts.. this is a bad idea .. once the oxides form they won't react with water unless you scrape it off.. even if you have a pulsing circuit that changes polarity you will eat away the metal... just drop some alum foil in there it's better.
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 20:55:40 pm
what you have in not graphene then do a google search
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 22:11:58 pm
graphene is not an insulator , graphene oxide is...
Quote

Like I said Steve, the graphene film sample that I sent you is most certainly a highly diaelectric constant insulator
so I'd disregard what is in that quote, if you choose to test it as per my previous post.

Hi George,

I ll gues i can give it a go and see what the graphene brings.

Steve


Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 01, 2013, 22:45:35 pm
I'm also studying chemistry ts.. this is a bad idea .. once the oxides form they won't react with water unless you scrape it off.. even if you have a pulsing circuit that changes polarity you will eat away the metal... just drop some alum foil in there it's better.

Isn't that kind of the point!?!  The oxide forming is SUPPOSED to prevent it from interacting with the water.  The electric field will still exert force on the water without current conducting through it.

TS
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2013, 17:00:39 pm
I don't mean to interrupted but you don't necessarily need a an insulator with a higher dielectric value than water. The capacitance equations tells us the thinner the material, the higher the over all capacitance so you could use a material with a lower dielectric constant as long as it was thin enough it would result in a larger capacitance than the water so the field would then be applied to the water.
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2013, 19:08:41 pm
I don't mean to interrupted but you don't necessarily need a an insulator with a higher dielectric value than water. The capacitance equations tells us the thinner the material, the higher the over all capacitance so you could use a material with a lower dielectric constant as long as it was thin enough it would result in a larger capacitance than the water so the field would then be applied to the water.

Excellent point.  Which still brings up self healing oxides for example.   A stainless material where one if it's components creates a suitable oxide dielectric.

TS
Title: Re: Dielectric Greater than Water Needed
Post by: Login to see usernames on December 30, 2013, 19:10:28 pm
OR... increase the size of the water gap?