Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: timeshell on August 24, 2012, 00:09:46 am

Title: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 24, 2012, 00:09:46 am
Assuming
Speed 60 km/h
RPM 1300 RPM
Economy 10 L/100 km

We can arrive at 0.1 L / 1 min

Further assuming
0.1 L/1 min
RPM 1300 RPM

We can arrive at
0.1 L/1300 RPM
1 mL/780 RPS
1/780 mL/R for 6 cylinder engine
1/4680 mL/R per cylinder

Conclusion is that while running a 1300 RPM each cylinder would require 1/4680 mL of gasoline for each ignition stroke.

How does that compare to requirements for HHO?

If we have a HHO unit for each cylinder, couldn't we accomplish this for each cylinder now?

TS
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 02:27:22 am
If you go to the Hydrogen Engine Center website it provides a good amount of information on quantities of Hydrogen needed to run a variety of engine sizes, although their engines are built for ground based power applications.

This might be helpful for your questions as they have done a lot of work in this area?
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 02:35:59 am
We are also running numbers on how much hydrogen we are going to need to drive an over the road truck down the road running only on HHO made on the truck.

It will take a few days to get numbers done. But we are going to need to split the oxygen out of the HHO stream, in the range of 400-1400 SLM. Any info on where we can find a filter to to do this would be helpful?
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 19:29:19 pm
From my own experience, you need at least 15 ltr hydrogen to fully run a 600cc fourstroke 4 cylinder engine....
Note: hydrogen, not hho.


Steve
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 23:05:37 pm
From my own experience, you need at least 15 ltr hydrogen to fully run a 600cc fourstroke 4 cylinder engine....
Note: hydrogen, not hho.


Steve

15 ltr hydrogen ....

Per minute?  For what?

TS
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 27, 2012, 23:34:20 pm
From my own experience, you need at least 15 ltr hydrogen to fully run a 600cc fourstroke 4 cylinder engine....
Note: hydrogen, not hho.


Steve

Per minute, of course.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on August 28, 2012, 01:12:00 am
Steve,

Check out the website at Hydrogen Engine Center and the quantity of hydrogen they use on a variety of engines they run for power gen. All of their engines are hardened and made to run for 10 plus years on pure hydrogen.

They have 1400 engines in the field and really know their stuff. I think you guys have a new company over their called HyEngine.com or something like that. They are doing some very cool things with Hydrogen motors as well.

But these engines consume great quantities of hydrogen, so very cost effective generation is critical. It is also critical that you do not have to compress it, store it, transport it, and build an infrastructure to support it. Even if it is cheap to make, if you still have to do all of the latter, it doesn't play.

Bear

Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2013, 21:23:47 pm
Just watched a youtube by americanantigravity and he said HHO at 1-2 lpm in a conventional car couldn't possibly improve gas mileage if it was a straight burning (exploding?) oxidation process at such low levels but said the separation and recombination electrolytic processes might be some nuclear process yielding alpha particles, similar to the Papp engine.  offered some detection evidence of nuclear particles.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on February 27, 2013, 16:47:03 pm
Steve,

Check out the website at Hydrogen Engine Center and the quantity of hydrogen they use on a variety of engines they run for power gen. All of their engines are hardened and made to run for 10 plus years on pure hydrogen.

They have 1400 engines in the field and really know their stuff. I think you guys have a new company over their called HyEngine.com or something like that. They are doing some very cool things with Hydrogen motors as well.

But these engines consume great quantities of hydrogen, so very cost effective generation is critical. It is also critical that you do not have to compress it, store it, transport it, and build an infrastructure to support it. Even if it is cheap to make, if you still have to do all of the latter, it doesn't play.

Bear


hi, i try to get the information, but it end up like nothing i can find on the web.
please post some pic of the quantitys of hydrogen on a variety of engines.
thanks alot Dude
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 13, 2013, 12:33:34 pm
Assuming
Speed 60 km/h
RPM 1300 RPM
Economy 10 L/100 km

We can arrive at 0.1 L / 1 min

Further assuming
0.1 L/1 min
RPM 1300 RPM

We can arrive at
0.1 L/1300 RPM
1 mL/780 RPS
1/780 mL/R for 6 cylinder engine
1/4680 mL/R per cylinder

Conclusion is that while running a 1300 RPM each cylinder would require 1/4680 mL of gasoline for each ignition stroke.

How does that compare to requirements for HHO?

If we have a HHO unit for each cylinder, couldn't we accomplish this for each cylinder now?

TS

Hi TS,

This is a good calculation to start from.. I believe the next step in your calculation would be to compare the amount of Hydrogen to gas you need to run the engine. This can be best done on atomic level. The document in attachment gives a good insite on that. It are the testresults of Meyers HHO Cells. I belevie that this document can help you in finalizing the calculation. I still need to finish the analyses of the document myself.

The interesting stuff starts at page 63

Waterfuel. 
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2013, 12:44:11 pm
I had a try in completing the calculation, hopefully without to many hickups. If you see one please let me know.

I took over the assumptions of Timeshell:

Assuming
Speed 60 km/h (constant)
Economy 10 L/100 km petrol
6 cylinder engine

We can arrive at 0.1 L / 1 min petrol consumption

If we divide the consumption of 0,1L/min of petrol by 6 cilinders we have 0,0166666 L/min Petrol for each cilinder

If we start from the principle that the Hydrogen in the Petrol is the real energy source of the fuel we need to calculate the amount of hydrogen in Petrol. Based on the wikisource (compositon of petrol) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum, i found out that petrol contains  between 10% to 14% of hydrogen. I will take the average 12% of hydrogen in pertrol.

This means 0,0166666 L/min Petrol for each cilinder x 12% of hydrogen => 0,002 liter/min hydrogen

Now lets calculate the amount of water we need to create the same amount of hydrogen. In the document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" (see previous attachment) I found out that H20 has 20% of hydrogen in it.

So 0,002 Liter/min hydrogen divided by 20% gives you the amount of H2O needed : 0,01 Liter of H2O/min

Now that we have the H2O amount we can calculate the amount of HHO gas we need to procude:

I found on this site http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem07/chem07088.htm that you get 1334 Liter of HHO gas from 1 Liter of H2O.

So this means 0,01Liter of H2O/min x 1334 => 13,34 Liter of HHO/min (this is an approximate number!)

So for each cilinder you would need +/-13,34 Liter of HHO/min to have the same hydrogen energy values as Petrol.

In the document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" Stan Meyer calculates how much HHO production he gets in ideal circumstances from one tube out of his tubular cell. That is 0,77L/min of HHO.

If we take this into concideration we would need 17 tubes in a tubular cell to produce the needed amount of HHO to drive one cilinder of our 6 cilinder engine. This tubular cell (17 tubes) would consume 952 watts of power to produce the gas.


All this makes me conclude that it's not enough to just produce great amounts of HHO and inject it into the engine to replace petrol. We should find an efficiĆ«nt way to use HHO/H2O as a fuel. For example we need to manipulate the HHO in such a way that you get a high energized fuel. So My proposal is to start experimenting with the energyzing of the HHO we already got and improve it's energy level. Just like Stan did. I think Hydrocars has a point in his post "Water is Fuel"  : http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php/topic,2646.0.html

What do you think guys?

 




Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2013, 12:56:08 pm
Quote
Now lets calculate the amount of water we need to create the same amount of hydrogen. In the document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" (see previous attachment) I found out that H20 has 20% of hydrogen in it.

Ok, please help me here.  H2O has 20% hydrogen in it?  What is H2O again?   Isn't it it a ratio of hydrogen to oxygen at 2:1 respectively?   Doesn't that mean that 66% of water is hydrogen (not considering impurities).

Am I missing something?

TS
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2013, 13:14:01 pm
Hi,

With H2O i mean water. Water contains 20% of hydrogen. That's what you can find in the doucment "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" page 61.

Mass Unit of a Water Molecule = (2H x 1Mu) + (1Oxy x 8Mu) = 10Mu's
2H Mu divided by 10 Mu's is 20 %

That's how I understood it :-)
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2013, 13:32:42 pm
The 20% Hydrogen comes from the comparison of Hydrogen and Oxygen in H2O (water) on a molecular level. That's the same calculation stan used in his testresults.

Hope this helps.

I just wanted to make a point that reaching the necesary amounts of HHO to replace Petrol is not an easy thing. Energyzing the amount of HHO we already are able to produce and converting it into a fuel (converting to Gtnt as Meyer stated) seems to me a faster way to reach our goals.

Waterfuel
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2013, 13:44:44 pm
20% by mass then?  Oxygen obviously has a greater mass than hydrogen.

TS
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 20, 2013, 15:00:02 pm
Correct  ;)
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 02:30:00 am
Your very wrong.

hydrogen is 11 % by weight of water


H atomic mass is 1

oxygen is 16 not 8

2+16=18
2/18
=1/9 =11%


Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 09:32:45 am
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

I'm not sure that you are right. I believe it is still 20%  ;)

I got my info from the following document "International Independent Test Evaluation Report" page 61. (you can find it in attachment a few posts earlier). there I found the formula used by Stan which says 20%.

In the attachment you find a printscreen fo that page.

Waterfuel.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 12:26:08 pm
I think there is confusion here over atomic number and atomic weight

Atomic weight includes the weight of the neutrons protons and electrons

Since the weight of the electron is negligble compared to the weight of a neutron or proton
the number of protons and nuetrons in the nucleus is roughly the atomic weight
 Oxygen has 8 protons and nuetorns so its atomic weight is 16 but its atomic number is 8

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/atom-atomic-weight-number.html
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 16:11:20 pm
Yes, seems meyer that have got it wrong than... he forgot the neutrons in that calculation!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_mass
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 16:51:20 pm
or maybe he did it on purpose.. assuming neutrons and protons a point charge.. ::)
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 18:51:33 pm
The only difference between gasoline and water is...gasoline has twice as much oxygen as water, bound up with the carbon. The combustion result of HHO is JUST water. The combustion result of gasoline (assuming stoichiometric combo) produces CO2 and water. If we were to use an ICE in the designed manner with HHO, first we would need to seperate the H and O, as the intake of the ICE would throw our HHO mixture WAY out of balance. Then we would need to realize that half the cylinders' volume would need to be H. This is essentially what Myth Busters did in there free energy episode, where they supposedly debunked HHO, Bedini, etc.

 Now let me explain why this is all wrong...


First, if we replaced gasoline with HHO in an equivalent manner, we would most likely destroy our engines. HHO burns much faster and hotter than gasoline. Did Stan build a WFC and hook it up to his carb and go? No! He realized you can't, it isn't feasible to create that on-demand, and if you could our engines simply aren't designed for that kind of power. So what the hell right? You could argue that he did, that's what the exhaust gasses are for etc...I purpose that it is not combustion in the classical sense. Instead he charges the heat exchanging medium (air) before it enters the engine (gas proc), then he injects excited hydrogen (higher energy state) and "weakened" oxygen (lower energy state), mixes it with incombustible exhaust gasses (ie, stable, or ground level energy state)...when this mixture is compressed and triggered, the hydrogen and oxygen DO NOT recombine.

For over a hundred years the ICE has not significantly changed...70% of the energy goes straight out the tail pipe...I believe Stan fundamentally changed the ICE's mode of operation, not just its fuel source. He understood the ICE is a wasteful heat exchanger, and created a micro-event that utilizes less fuel, yet has a more efficient heat exchange
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 21, 2013, 21:15:45 pm
if you believe this patent then hydrogen doesn't recombine even if you throw it in without charging it http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2013/0061822.html

maybe meyer used the radiation (heat e.t.c.) of the ICE to make some fuel during combustion to re-circulate for combustion...hope you share something back.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 22, 2013, 02:12:19 am
From what I can tell is that patent is claiming that Hydrogen embrittlement is a desired condition. In which hydrogen trapped between the metal matrices act as catalyst in the combustion of hydrocarbons...truly interesting! But I do not believe it is of primary importance...more like someone cashing in on a happy coincidence.


P.S. How does someone really think they can enforce a patent on an effect caused by an open sourced process going back almost a century? :D
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 22, 2013, 16:23:25 pm
Just to mention...

GREAT part of the gasolines energy come from the formation of CO CO2 and NO's

Thereto meyer simply used the equivalence of hydrogen amount to compare the power. not really fair...

anyways -

The CO is almost aways formed but the CO2 is harder to form rapidly during combustion thereto it is burned together with NO into the catalyser to form C02 and NO2 which are less agressive gases since they are now stable....

Part of the gasoline goes out the pipe without being burned at all


Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 23, 2013, 10:51:32 am
How hot can an engine become inside the combustion chamber?
What happens with H2O at certain temperature?
How hot burns hydrogen?

The question how much H do we need, is not a simple calculation as proposed by some of you.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 23, 2013, 16:10:50 pm
not much..
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 24, 2013, 06:14:03 am
The only difference between gasoline and water is...gasoline has twice as much oxygen as water, bound up with the carbon. The combustion result of HHO is JUST water. The combustion result of gasoline (assuming stoichiometric combo) produces CO2 and water. If we were to use an ICE in the designed manner with HHO, first we would need to seperate the H and O, as the intake of the ICE would throw our HHO mixture WAY out of balance. Then we would need to realize that half the cylinders' volume would need to be H. This is essentially what Myth Busters did in there free energy episode, where they supposedly debunked HHO, Bedini, etc.

 Now let me explain why this is all wrong...



First, if we replaced gasoline with HHO in an equivalent manner, we would most likely destroy our engines. HHO burns much faster and hotter than gasoline. Did Stan build a WFC and hook it up to his carb and go? No! He realized you can't, it isn't feasible to create that on-demand, and if you could our engines simply aren't designed for that kind of power. So what the hell right? You could argue that he did, that's what the exhaust gasses are for etc...I purpose that it is not combustion in the classical sense. Instead he charges the heat exchanging medium (air) before it enters the engine (gas proc), then he injects excited hydrogen (higher energy state) and "weakened" oxygen (lower energy state), mixes it with incombustible exhaust gasses (ie, stable, or ground level energy state)...when this mixture is compressed and triggered, the hydrogen and oxygen DO NOT recombine.

For over a hundred years the ICE has not significantly changed...70% of the energy goes straight out the tail pipe...I believe Stan fundamentally changed the ICE's mode of operation, not just its fuel source. He understood the ICE is a wasteful heat exchanger, and created a micro-event that utilizes less fuel, yet has a more efficient heat exchange

Imagine the engine running on water, a combustible fluid that needs not be ignited to convert unlike gas or diesel.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 24, 2013, 06:16:25 am
How hot can an engine become inside the combustion chamber?
What happens with H2O at certain temperature?
How hot burns hydrogen?

The question how much H do we need, is not a simple calculation as proposed by some of you.

I think you answered that question years ago when you ran the 600cc streetbike :) I tip my hat. N Btw, not as hot as a Diesel.
Title: Re: How much HHO do we need?
Post by: Login to see usernames on March 25, 2013, 09:57:06 am
Yeh. That was fun.
3000 rpm it went on 1.5kw of outlet power in the cell....