Author Topic: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!  (Read 16679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 21:11:36 pm »
Quote
A sort of sweet spot between dead short and off.

i think you just defined the resistance were matching in the circuit and the frequency that applies to.. 

that quote made me think thats the 0 were are tuning into..
if a cell arks at 100 volts for example and is considered the break down point then what happens if the circuit is tuned into that as the 0..   what i mean by this is lets say you want 100 volts potential across the cell that goes into dielectric breakdown at 100 volts.. and you know 100 is the breakdown point.. then would it not make sense to oscillate  a potential of 150v peak 50 volt low on a 50 percent duty cycle..  this is how you balance dwell time with off time..???

here is a higher voltage example..  lets say 10kv is breakdown point..  and you want 20kv across the cell wouldnt  the circuit need need to goto 20 kv and down to 0 volts? and that same coil if needed to only goto 10 thousand volts in the gap would then need to goto 15kv down to 5 kv in 50 percent cycle?

40kv for 10 kv breakdown properties would oscillate 30kv high negative 10kv low

so what im saying is maybe resonance being established to a dielectric is all about centering your oscillation on the break down point.. so you spend 50 percent current and 50 percent not and you center the difference of potential to it.

higher voltage means you will reach breakdown point quicker across the cell there will be a varable of dwell time  (time current dwells and time it doesnt..) which is the 50 percent duty.. this dwell time is most likely has its sweet spots for different potentials if so then that establishes the resonant frequency for water at different potentials

when pulsing the circuit i think it is possible to tune into that sweet spot and allow current in balance which means no current ???

Offline Login to see usernames

  • 50+
  • *
  • Posts: 68
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2010, 22:59:48 pm »
Thats where the duty cycle comes into play , we must stop the voltage just before  arcing , then start over again and let new air fill the gap . There is no real way to sense the current and stop the voltage just in time quickly enough other than duty cycle and trial and error .

If you need help in desiging a circuit for some experiments I can do this .

Ionization is more the type of thing that can be done  this is the direction this forum should take .





Offline Login to see usernames

  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2010, 23:28:10 pm »
Quote
There is no real way to sense the current and stop the voltage

there is a way and its called resonance.. it when a coil drops in amp and voltage rises in a circuit.... so to know when to stop current you need a circuit that can detect a change in current and adjusts to keep it at it minimal.. wouldnt that be the pll circuit with its winding? on the core? its constantly trying to maintain the high voltage while it fluxuate to the changing of dielectric resistance since during production it cannot remain constant it fluxes due to gasses and change in variables.

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2010, 23:58:31 pm »
What I see is a lot of variables in the voltage of your power supply.
To a point at and or near corona discharge would be a adjustment of your electrode spacing.
I don't think corona discharge is needed for the ionization but just a vicinity ionization.
In case of corona discharge and then a real short-arc there would be a ballast or maybe some coils to help restrict current from flowing over and drawing to high to effect the power supply. Its almost like a safety.

When I stuck my ionizer in a water bath you figure it should have shorted the power supply. I imagine the resistance of the windings to current flow saved the power supply.
I thought resonance is the condition where the current and voltage are both at matching peaks to each other. A PLL and pick-up winding would adjust the frequency so the peaks are in unison. At that point it becomes the most efficient and current will drop or be at its highest efficiency. In our situations for cell type circuits I understand the voltage rises too. I wonder if voltage rises because we don't use a earth ground, its floating reacting with the transformer?

Here's a video from Jetijs on the ionization and the self wind it creates.
Also note I think his positive electrode is just a single centralized straight piece appears on the side and the negative is a frame of some sort.
With this setup it appears the ionization is done in general vicinity and its hard to see any corona discharge.
Very nice simple and informative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzjMwqKv8Gg   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 00:15:27 am by komtek »

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 270
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2010, 00:54:47 am »
Resonance... Not to be confused with "Resonant Action". These are totally two different things happening in the same device but different locations in the device working in tandem, sort of... Every coil has self resonant frequencies. The resonance we are looking for is a parallel type resonance where our voltage rises to infinity and the current drops very low. I mentioned earlier about visualizing a coil as a magnet. each coil has a north and south pole. What happens when we resonate both wires in our coil but each coils polarity is reversed from each other? We have an electrical tension. In a perfect world, a non-inductive coil like ours has the electromagnetic field canceled due to the direction of the current in each wire being opposite of each other. Well, this clearly is not a perfect world and not all of the magnetic field is canceled out. Small compressed rays of electromagnetic energy is radiating out the sides of the coil where the wires do not touch. Some call these scalar waves, or a type of interference pattern. Being that there is some EM energy, a core can store this energy more efficiently and be used, somehow.

The beauty of this coil, when properly tuned to how it's used, it can act like a large capacitor where you step charge it till the threshold voltage is reached and it discharges the energy it stored. Not only that, remember that a coil is resistant to rapid changes in current so it can't release a lot of current quickly like a capacitor does. It's rather hard to explain. So, once it reaches that snap, it starts over. All the energy is kept bundled up in the chokes and keeping the voltage high at the same time, making the water look like just another resistive medium. We tune an ionizer for the dielectric of the air, we tune the WFC for the dielectric of the water. I also mentioned earlier about how each turn of a coil can increase in voltage as you progress down the coil. Each coil is inducing it's opposite field into each other creating more tension in this particular bifilar setup. Some call it a tensor coil.

I am sorry but my thoughts are jumping back and forth and my writing is fragmented. I hope I'm not confusing anyone. The chokes are where some of the magic is at and I find it hard to explain it in a sensible way. I'm going to end here with the chokes by saying, though the chokes are needed for many purposes, they are not really contributing to the resonant action in the cell. Having resonant chokes in the system does not ensure gas production. If not done right you won't see anything and have really no clue why?

Bubz

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 270
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2010, 04:35:22 am »
Resonant Action and Resonant Cavities

This is the final puzzle for me and I haven't quite figured it out yet. At least not that I am aware of. I still have a few tricks up my sleeve for these special occasions but this is starting to get complicated. Well, so it seems...
My biggest question though at this point is "How do I know what to look for when a resonant cell is resonating?"

The Resonant Action Stan describes is pretty basic to comprehend, although, I have not a clue as to anything else in the world that bounces particles back and forth like Stan describes. Except for a tubed wind instrument like a flute or clarinet. In our case we have a tube with a rod in the middle of it. how does this affect resonance?

Thinking out loud... Can we get a similar effect with ionized air? Since it is a resonant cavity, I would imagine in resonance, the cell should make a whistling sound. Do the resonant chokes need to be specifically designed to a certain frequency that matches the resonant frequency of the cell?

I need to think about this for a bit. Here is a quote from "Atomic Energy Balance of Water" for review.

Resonant Propagation
These highly energized and liberated water bath atoms, now, causes Resonant Action to occur at a progressive rate during continued voltage stimulation ... giving way to the following operational parameters of hydrogen gas production for energy utilization from natural water:

Resonant Action(point of particle oscillation) occurs when applied pulse voltage frequency is adjusted to tune-in" to the Dielectric Resonance of water via voltage Intensifier Circuit whereas, applied voltage amplitude which is independent of Resonance Frequency is adjusted to cause water bath atoms to
momentarily enter into Liquid-to-gas ionization state .... ejecting negative charged electrons… forming positive charged atoms having missing electrons ... forming negative charged atoms by electrons capture.
Compounding Action(deflection of electrical charged particles) by way of voltage stimulation aids Resonant Action by superimposing particle impact onto to the Electrical Polarization Process.


I think I was understanding this a little backward...

Bubz

Offline Login to see usernames

  • Hero member
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2010, 06:49:33 am »
You've been posting some good stuff. It's nice to see you are doing original thinking and research into Stan's material. There are far too few people doing this.

As Stan lays it out, it appears resonant action and ionization are the result of simply advancing and improving on the VIC circuit.

Taking it to higher voltage levels and getting a better understanding of the pulsing. Building better VIC's.

You might notice Stan built this cell:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/bigbuba/Picture1-4.png)

before he built the Hydrogen Gas Gun, or at least this is my current understanding.

This cell is a resonant cell, it's in the Resonant Cavity Patent, it's in the Tech brief, and it's in the lectures.

I believe he learned a lot from this cell and the resonant action that he describes, before he moved on to the Hydrogen Fracturing Process.


Offline Login to see usernames

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2010, 07:33:54 am »
Your doing a great job Bubz!
Maybe we should just stick to the main topic and keep the flow going.
We can always come back to resonance at another time, there seems to be some variable here that makes it tough.