Author Topic: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!  (Read 16678 times)

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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2010, 22:40:48 pm »
Bubz, thanks alot for the links.

You got something in mind and sounds good although it appears you are holding back. (Maybe for the interest for more involement and other listeners).
I understand about no-names! No problem with me, its aggreed that involvement has to have a certain level of privacy for all, and no fear.
How about it any others to jump in?

You have and are sparking my interest, I'm behind you.

I suggest you get started, lets discuss the geet parts and assembly once more other than Stevie's geet thread project.
Allow me to suggest, start a new thread.
Hopefully there will be something to point out and make this as easy as possible to replicate (in laymans terms), not just for myself but for others.
Maybe you can post some facts of experience.
I'm sure you have experienced some of the problems associated with the technology and have altered them to the appropriate construction of the device and its variables of use.

You have something important to convey, see if we can get some projects moving along or at least started.
Maybe we can build the replication followers slowly, to get this started along.
There is no fast way and will never be. One step at a time, change does not happen overnight.
In order to make it happen it must be initiated and started.

From seeing technology evolving over the past few years I think its accepted to the point of open arms with much of the population.
Also like you say there is possibly a fear from sources or organizations maybe, where this implies privacy is needed.
You seem a little hesitant, lets try to put that to rest and open this up.

What can I do to help this along?

 
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 02:33:40 am by komtek »

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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2010, 02:50:17 am »
OK, I will try to keep this as garage tech as possible. Let's start with learning how to make the right type of ionizer. We will need certain tools to make sure we are producing the the desired ions and not the usual ozone. this part is very important. I found a wonderful website outlining the "Ion Detector".

hxxp://www.naturalsolutions1.com/iondetect.htm

Build An Ion Detector and Test Your Negative Ionizer
by Vincent Vollono from "Spring 1994 Electronics Hobbyists Handbook"

Ions are defined as electrically charged atoms. Positively charged ions have a deficiency of electrons, and negatively charged ions have a surplus of electrons. An ion can also be classified as an atom or molecule with an electrostatic charge. Another classification of an ion is a charged particle that is formed when one or more electrons are taken from or added to a previously neutral atom or molecule.

The Ion Detector described in this article can be used to detect the presence of free ions in the air. The Ion Detector, a handheld unit about the size of a pack of cigarettes, is designed to indicate ion emissions from Ion Generators, high-voltage leakage points, static-electricity sources, electric-field gradients, and in other situations where the presence of their relative flux density is required.

The front cover features, a sensitivity control with on-off switch, a high flux indicator lamp, and a panel meter. An antenna, mounted on the top of the unit, serves an external ion collector. A strip of metallic foil on the outside of the plastic enclosure touches the users hand and is used to ground the unit. For fixed applications, the strip can be replaced by a wire connected to the ground.

Circuit Description. Figure 1 shows a schematic diagram of the Ion Detector - a rather simple circuit consisting of three transistors (two PN2907 PNP units, and a single PN2222 NPN unit), three resistors, an antenna, and an LED.

In that circuit, a telescoping antenna is used as the pickup. In the presence of an ion field, ions accumulate on the antenna, causing a minute negative current to flow to the base of Q1. Capacitor C1 and resistor R1 form an RC network, whose function is to eliminate any rapid fluctuations. Once the negative current becomes large enough, it causes Q1 to turn on, connecting the negative terminal of battery B1 to the base of Q2. That forward biases Q2, causing it to turn on. That, in turn, couples the base of Q3 to the positive terminal of the battery, forward biases Q3 - whose collector is in series with current-limiting resistor R2 and meter-sensitivity control R3 - causing it to conduct.

With Q3 turned on, meter M1 indicates (in a non-linear manner) the relative level of ion flux, while LED1 (which is connected in series with Q3's emitter) lights to give a visual indication of strong ion fields. It should be noted that in order for the unit to operate properly, some sort of ground is usually required.

Metallic tape is used in the prototype to provide a convenient contact for the users hand, thereby providing a partial ground. If possible, such as when the unit is used as a monitor at a permanent location, the detector should be grounded to a water pipe, or some other convenient grounding point.

The detector is set up to detect negative ions. It can be made to detect positive ions by simply reversing the polarity of the transistors that comprise the circuit, i.e., PNP units become NPN units, and NPN transistor is replaced by a PNP unit. It should not that the performance of the detector is seriously affected by high humidity. Damp or moist air tends to impair the circuits ability to detect ion flux.

The Ion Detector can be used to give a quick indication of the presence of a negative ion field, aid in identifying its source, and indicate its relative strength, but it is not designed to provide an absolute measurement of flux intensity. The circuit can also be used to aid in making adjustments to ion sources, by noting the meter's needle deflection as you attempt to increase or decrease ion emissions. The Ion Detector can also be used to ferret out residual ion fields, check for ion leakage (in shielding tests, for example), or to test for static charges (in people's clothes, fluorescent lighting, plastic containers, certain winds, etc.), along with a host of other applications.

( Our Note: R1 We could not find a 100-megohn resister. We used (5) 20-megohn resisters in SERIES to get a Series total of 100-megohms.)

ADDITIONAL PARTS AND MARTERIALS
Perfboard materials, plastic enclosure, 9-volt battery holder and connector, wire, solder, hardware, etc.

Construction. The author's prototype of the Ion Detector was assembled on a section of perfboard, using point-to-point wiring for inter component connections. Pay close attention to the orientation of the polarized components (diodes, transistors, electrolytic capacitors, etc.), as well as the polarization of the DC source that will power the circuit when assembling the circuit. It is very important that you verify all your interconnecting wiring.

It is highly recommended that the circuit be enclosed in a plastic project box. Once the circuit is completed, a 1/2 inch wide strip of aluminum is attached to the side of the enclosure, and is then connected to the circuit board (at the junction of C1, the positive lead of the panel meter, and the positive terminal of the battery) as shown in Fig. 1. The aluminum strip serves as the circuit's grounding point. The grounding strip can be replaced or supplemented by a wired alligator clip for connection to a "true" earth ground ( a water pipe, for instance).

The author used a telescoping antenna as the ion pickup in his prototype unit; however, a piece of stiff wire (a wire hanger, for example) would also work. In either case, the antenna must be electronically isolated; i.e., it should not be connected to ground in any way. Note that S1 (the on-off switch) is piggy-backed to potentiometer R3 (a 5K potentiometer that serves as the meter's sensitivity control). You can also use a potentiometer with a piggy-back switch or use two separate components.

For meter M1, the author used a small 100-mA panel meter; using a meter with a rating other than that specified may affect the performance of the unit. It is also important to remember that any leakage around the input of Q1 will reduce the circuit's sensitivity. To help prevent (or at least reduce) leakage, the circuit can be coated with a high-quality varnish. If you decide to coat the circuit, make sure that the unit is completely clean and dry before applying the varnish.

Use. To demonstrate the unit's sensitivity, run a plastic comb through your hair, and place it near the antenna of the Ion Detector. Making sure that the unit is grounded (either by the user touching the aluminum strip or by connecting an earth ground to the circuit), bring the comb near the antenna. As the comb is brought near the antenna, you'll note a needle deflection on the meter (indicating the presence of ions), and LED1 lights. As the detector is brought closer to the ion source, the meter needle should deflect harder. If the needle deflects too hard (pegs), R3 can be adjusted to bring the meter reading on scale. That's all there is to it. While the Ion Detector is not a precision instrument, it can come in handy in your workshop or laboratory.

Please Note: When using to check Negative Ionizer generator operation, NEVER let the antenna of the ion detector touch needle tips of ionizer. If the Negative Ionizer is working and producing alot of negative ions, it will show up on the Ion Detector as far away as 1 to 10 feet from the Negative Ionizing unit. 


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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2010, 06:52:26 am »
I'm gonna assume you all have a grasp on the ion detector and move on the the intake ionizer design and implementation. We have to take into consideration the amount of air being consumed by the motor and the amount of ionized air our device can make. If our ionizer is using a low powered driver, we won't have enough ions to work with. Remember, the more electrons we can strip off, the higher the electronegativity. Extremely unstable oxygen atoms looking to fill their missing electrons. A good electrode design will incorporate a large surface area formed to a turbine/vortex fashion. This device will have to be electrically isolated to prevent shorts. We won't need a carburetor, so we can somehow attach the ionizer to the intake manifold. Here are a couple of pics with some design ideas...


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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2010, 09:40:00 am »
When you get better acquainted with gas ionizers, you may soon come to a realization and a foreshadowing clue to the WFC. When dealing with designing electrode configurations of ionizers, we find if the gap space is too close , it will short out. If the gap is to far the effect is impaired or non-functional. The size of the gap space or spaces, will also be dependent upon the voltage potential level. The higher the voltage, the bigger gap space. We are trying to achieve an optimal coronal discharge just before the dead short threshold where a spark jumps the gap and shorts out the circuit. If you've ever worked with Tesla Coils, auto ignition systems, Jacobs Ladders, or any high voltage circuit that has a spark gap, this will be easy for you.

What was this clue? I began to wonder what would happen to an ionizer if maybe some atomized water from a ultrasonic humidifier passed through the electrodes. Would it break apart the water molecules? I should of known better it would short out. I had to be sure though... I thought to myself,"It sure would be nice if I could find a way to be able to push water droplets through this ionizer without it shorting out." I remembered a bit about the NST we used for a Jacob's Ladder experiment in the works and how the ballast worked. The NST outputs 5Kv 35ma during a closed shorted state. Basically it can sustain a good spark for a long time without destroying the circuit. A ballast is like a current limiter for dead short conditions.

To make a long story short, I finally realized why these resonant chokes had to be in the circuit. Whether it was a transformer or voltage multiplier, this coil has to be there to keep the circuit from shorting out when ever water was present. With the chokes added to the circuit, the spark that normally shorted the circuit, now just intermittently sparked like clockwork and didn't kill the circuit. There was no tuning involved or any math used. I just made a quick small bifilar coil and placed it in the circuit. No holds barred.

I'm going to take a little break before I go into depth with resonant chokes which is gonna take a few words to say. I may not be able to sleep tonight so I'll try to write as much as I can.

I am sad to announce my little brother has died today. My dear Randy, may you rest in peace!

Bubz

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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2010, 11:18:44 am »
Hi Bubz,

I am sorry to hear about you loosing a brother.
Hang in there.

Steve

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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2010, 11:21:21 am »
Bubz,

Nice ion measurment tool schematic. Never thought about using one, but this is pretty nice.
I am working on my ambient air ionizer. My work is killing all myh free time, however, i think i will get some time this week to finish my first HV ionizer, which can fit on my motorbike.
That way i can see what it does when the bike runs on HHO.

Steve


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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2010, 13:20:16 pm »
Bubz,
Sorry to hear about your little brother, may he rest in peace.
Hopefully you have many fond memories, I lost my little brother when we were very young.

I guess the measurement device will come in handy for being able to point out neg or pos charged particles on a scale even.
On hand I have a 600mg perhour device and looks like to use for this application will have to rewire into the new electrode design.
Also other ionzers that may  be possible, a small spa unit found at pool supply of fish tank supply, they come with timing circuits you may have to disable.
Have to work on that electrode setup. The vortex is just for mixing or swirling action isn't it? Or should we design an electrode setup aound the vortex blades?
Is it possible to use maybe some tungston wire isolated from its base (maybe a couple inch PVC pipe base placed so it won't melt?) and 2 electrodes sort of cross hatch woven under or over that vortex, or 2 large stainless steel screens with enough seperation between?
Also I tested this ionizer under water just to see if it could make a bubble.
Put it in a bucket of tap water and didn't notice anything. Tried for about 3 minutes.
Then reassembled the unit and it still works and am using it last few months for ionizing my smoking area which is the garage.
The ionizer helps get rid of the smokey residual smell very quickly.

Don't know if this is the type of ionizer you have in mind but its in my grasp and ready to be used as I had purchased it for this originally.
Also wanted to mention as it may be helpfull a small used working pull Neon Sign 6kv supply might be able to be purchased at ebay for as little as $10.00.
Picked up one a while back.

Its funny you mention sleep.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 15:14:58 pm by komtek »

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Re: Air Ionizers Analogy - Strikingly Similar!
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 20:10:46 pm »
When we look at a VIC diagram and take out the chokes, you can see all we have here is a step-up transformer and two plates. Compare this to a "Bipolar Tesla Coil". With Tesla coils we can easily reach extremely high voltages with ease. Each turn in succession towards the positive end of the secondary rises in voltage where the potential at the very end on the last turn can be millions of volts. Imagine the Tesla Coil secondary as an electromagnet, where the positive end is north with a extremely high potential, as the south end is 0V. Does this make sense? You can do easy experiments with coils and see this effect where the potential rises in a linear fashion as you measure down the coil. This is important to remember.

A long time ago, I was playing around with an ignition coil and some ignition wire from the junk yard. I soon understood that they make ignition wire with a really high resistance. My experiment wasn't working right for the fact the wires were way to resistive to get a small spark easily. I was perplexed as to why they do this. It seemed a waste to impede current to create a spark. I was told it is to keep the ignition wires from shorting to the block. Aha, this made sense to me. I have seen this happen with other high voltage experiments where a primary will short to the secondary if the insulation was inadequate. Well, we can do this too with our VIC or ionizer circuit, but resistance is a waste of energy. It works, but your just wasting the energy your trying to save. Like trying to fill a bucket with a hose full of holes. Resistance also adds to the voltage drop and we don't need any more of that than what we already have.

We have to some how choke the current off just before the plates like a valve. As with an Ionizer, the same with a VIC, if we have a dead short condition, the current will rise and the voltage will drop to 0v for an instant of time. If you think about it. The large part of resistance in the ionizer is the air between the plates and the circuit mainly sees it as a resistance. Remember we can change the resistance by changing the gap space or we can adjust the voltage to the gap space to the point of coronal discharge. A sort of sweet spot between dead short and off. When we add water to the circuit, it's like adding a wire in between the plate making a dead short. Enter the "Resonant Charging Chokes".


Inductors have an array of uses such as ballasts, filters, resonators, and so on. They have many qualities we can utilize in our circuits. One of the inherent properties of an inductor coil is it's resistance to fast rising current. This quality helps us to keep a runaway current draw as a ballast is designed to do, allowing us to have many dead shorts without harm. It acts much like resistive wires without the resistance. Or like a valve holding back the current. In our case though we have a bifilar coil which allows us to keep the qualities of the single coil and some added benefits when we have two in parallel with the direction of the current running opposite of each other. At first this coil resembles a non-inductive series bifilar coil which is used in the industry for a type of wire wound resistor, but this is not what we have when we do what we do with it. Here is where the resonance comes in...

I need to take a break for some family matters... I'll start resonance in a few hours.