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Projects by members => Projects by members => Kinesisfilms => Topic started by: kinesisfilms on April 20, 2009, 01:10:53 am

Title: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 01:10:53 am
if you have ever tried the old experiments of stanleys first patents then im sure you have tried this.....

take a variac and run it through a transformer to isolate it from the primary then take the outputs of the secondary and run it through a bridge rectifier...connect your now unipolar DC pulse frequency signal from the rectifier to your tubes...........

now turn on the variac and begin to increase voltage amplitude......you will notice bubbles form and you begin to have gas production....keep increasing the voltage amplitude......now you will blow out the fuse in your variac at a certain voltage amplitude level....why?...becuase you have arc'd your voltage over the tube cell and current decided to have it's way.

now let's put in a new fuse and this time place a resistor between the ground ouput of the bridge rectifier and the tube cell......this resistor will attempt to stop the flow of electrons from reaching the ground source.

turn on the variac and begin to increase voltage amplitude....this time you can surpass where your fuse blew before......now the voltage amplitude is much higher and performing the same amount of work......your resistor will become incredibly hot depending on the amount of electrons you are holding back from allowing to arc.....eventually it will arc and you will have to switch to an even higher resistance.


i have read the patent a while ago but decided i would atleast do it for the hell of it.....

just food for thought on how voltage can perform work when current is cut back......every tube setup has it's point of arcing.

now with my function generator, mosfet, 12 volt dc battery/ variable voltage amplitude control and john's figure 6-1 coil i can take bare tubes out of water and bring them to the point of arcing. (usually at a very low frequency).....now if i am to submerge them in water i would have to increase the power/voltage amplitude just as you would with the variac experiment to bring them to the point of arcing.......but it is almost impossible with my current power setup......now i might be able to do a complete sweep of all frequencies but i am unaware of the frequency range to use with johns coil before internal arcing would occur inside the coil before the capcitor......and i rather not find out the hard way....this is why i have not played around with lower frequencies yet.

everything is dependant upon amplitude and frequency.


these are concepts.

i have made this section to inform people of a concept that isn't fully taken into seriousness.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 17:31:10 pm
Thank you Kinesisfilms.

Great stuff.
we all learn from you here.

br
Steve
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 17:39:40 pm
Lets join in here.

P=U*I

U=I*R

Kinesisfilms test:
example: 40v = 40amps * 1 ohm meaning the the WFC has a low resistance of 1 ohm and starts to arc.
Add a resistor in line with the WFC of 9 ohms: 40V = 4 amps * 10 ohms

Now raising the voltage till 400V= 40amps * 10 ohms and sparking again......am i right Kinesisfilms?

My conclusion is that you still have to same amount of amps and also the same production rate. am I right here?
I know that Stan said that production would raise, but i never seen that in my tests.
Can you confirm any improvement Kinesisfilms?

br
Steve



Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 17:54:23 pm
About the arcing.... there is no way arcing will occur between the WFC gap when filed with water.

The reason the fuse blows, it is because water will conduct more as the voltage increases. 

Adding the resistor just puts a limit on how much current you allow, then preventing from blowing the fuse, but also making the whole circuit way less efficient.

So I don't really see it as voltage performing work, I see it as a current limiter, and if you have no current at all, there will be no production at all.

Maybe I'm wrong ? but I'm also a hands on experimenter.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 17:56:20 pm
Unless something is improving production, it seems that this is the wrong way in terms of absolute consumed power..


br
Steve
Hands on as well....
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 17:58:03 pm
So you are taking the tubes out of the water and you see a spark , and somehow this is meaningful ? Absolutely meaningless .

This theory of voltage has been tried and tried again , its not voltage .

Its this particle oscillation , proven technology like single-wire transmission and avramenko plug revolve around this .

The Meyer papers become extremely relevant once you take this ''scalar theory'' into account .



Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 18:20:53 pm
everything as stated above i have reiterated from patent 4,798,661

i use the term arcing in definition of  "when the resistor no longer provides a complete block to electron leakage."

in the first case teh only resistor is the water....which inhibts electron flow....but once the waters resistance is overcome and current flows.....i consider that arcing.....not a physical arc as in ionizing air plasma arcs.

please read patent 4,798,661.......this is how stan explains what is going on in the system......i have just simply tried it in reference to what he has been saying.

and electrojolt.....in regards to your statement about current flow......i have gotten very small gas production while using a flyback transformer at incredibly minimal amperage before.


so i am always for what stan has always been saying about voltage potential can and will split water.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 19:49:10 pm
everything as stated above i have reiterated from patent 4,798,661

i use the term arcing in definition of  "when the resistor no longer provides a complete block to electron leakage."

in the first case teh only resistor is the water....which inhibts electron flow....but once the waters resistance is overcome and current flows.....i consider that arcing.....not a physical arc as in ionizing air plasma arcs.

please read patent 4,798,661.......this is how stan explains what is going on in the system......i have just simply tried it in reference to what he has been saying.

and electrojolt.....in regards to your statement about current flow......i have gotten very small gas production while using a flyback transformer at incredibly minimal amperage before.


so i am always for what stan has always been saying about voltage potential can and will split water.

I have done a similar experiment with a flyback transformer with similar results (little gas production) but again you need some current flow even if minimal and minimal current flow = minimal gas production.

Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 20:35:14 pm
the last few days i haven been going back and reading over everything

as far as the current limiting goes, first he tried using resistors, then then he moved over to chokes, like jolt says, the resistors make it less efficient, because resistors consume amps, but when you use a coil of wire (choke) you are using the electromagnetic field to restrict the amps

basic stuff i know, but stan says it all over the place, and it's important to wrap your head around...
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 20, 2009, 20:57:13 pm
So it seems there is a relation with amp flow . Kinesis , your observation is meaningless , it was brute force electrolysys but with less amps and higher voltage . So this is not it ... Your claim of voltage doing work .

More amps= more production

less amps = less production .

Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 00:36:06 am
well then if that is the case then stan has another meaning for voltage performing work........i did it exactly as stated......

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/whatidid.jpg)


so if my experiment proves nothing then what is the purpose of this patent?....i did not come up with this.....i simply followed the steps.

and to electrojolt there will almost never be ZERO current flow in stan's system.....there will always be some electron leak.

BUT still stan achieved HIGH gas output with MINIMAL CURRENT.....so this does exist regardless of what you adn i have seen.....there is just something that we are still not doing right......and what better place to try and figure it out then from the beginning.

regardless IT HAS BEEN DONE.

and by using a resistor one can prove that by holding back electrons you can raise the voltage to a higher amplitude then before....this is the purpose of this post.

stan always talks about votlage amplitude and voltage potential.....this is the first patent where he posts his understandings.

ONCE AGAIN IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THIS PATENT PLEASE READ IT BEFORE YOU REPLY.

also notice that V13 is hte level where water disassociates......as stan and stephen have said many times.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/readthepatent.jpg)

VOTLAGE AMPLITUDE IS THE KEY.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 00:45:16 am
It never works like you think it does , never .

More voltage never = more production . And a 50kv gradient across cell doesnt do anything either .

I'm looking @ thus from a new perspective , I am interrested in knowing what is happening with the hutschison effect , how is that metal breaking apart and floating .



Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 00:56:41 am
honestly......you are a nut.

what i find INCREDIBLY interesting is how positive voltage potential and negative electrical potential are 2 seperate things on the graph.

i will think on this more.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 01:05:33 am

what i find INCREDIBLY interesting is how positive voltage potential and negative electrical potential are 2 seperate things on the graph.

i will think on this more.

I agree, if Stan's stuff really worked, then there is something missing. It is useless to try to increase voltage potential across the cell, that just does not work.
We need to think how can we make the H to O bond weaker. maybe combining RF with DC pulsing?


Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 01:49:30 am
honestly......you are a nut.

what i find INCREDIBLY interesting is how positive voltage potential and negative electrical potential are 2 seperate things on the graph.

i will think on this more.

The only thing thats different is their direction , they are bidirectionnal .

Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 02:22:10 am
listen up this is what im seeing tell me what you think..  imagine with the unipolar set up.. stan says the water acts like a resistor.. does he mean from earth ground?   if you hook positive stainless choke to secondary with the diode.. then hook the negative choke to the cell and to the negative side of the vic PRIMARY.. then put the the 50% duty cycle pulse frequency gate right after hooking negative choke to pri neg.. with a analog pulse going in at  the same 50% duty as the pulse gate.. wouldnt the fuel cell act like a gate itself?  stan says the negative choke superimposes its charge onto primarys opposite end. so think of current being there and if you left the door open it will trip the breaker but stan has the 50 percent duty gate and the 50 percent duty frequency... hes not allowing it to get the chance to build current he keeps closing the door before it has a chance.. but its allowing a gated dwell time in the cell which he also uses to tune into waters resonance.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 04:23:49 am
kinesisfilms,  Have you checked the phase relationship of the signals on  the inner & outer tubes yet?

The closer to 180 degrees out of phase
they are, the less current can flow.


I've read all the posts but I'm still not quite sure how your bifilar is hooked up
And quite honestly I'm not sure which configuration is correct.

Magnetically pinching off the current is not something you
can find much experimenters  data on.


The other VIC's that show a variable inductor on the negative side,
should not so much be considered a variable inductor, but a
VARIABLE PHASE SHIFTER.  Apparently Stan learned enough
to get rid of that for this VIC and we haven't.


You are right, there will always be some current, or there will never be any pulses.

Pulses out of a transformer come from presence and absence of current.
Without any current there would be nothing to pull the voltage back down to form the pulse, hence saturation. 

Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 04:45:32 am
just adding in some thoughts here

stan says in one of the videos the chokes restrict current by 90 degrees, from the little i know about leading and lagging voltage-current phase relationships, i can't figure out what the deal is with this, but from the way he says it, i know it is an important fact of how the chokes do their job, more learning needed here...

also with the pulses, as you said mike, that current must flow to bring the voltage down, true, but this is before the cell, since the voltage increases with a step charge, as in this picture

so the pulses come in from the secondary and then the chokes are holding back the current to allow the voltage to be delivered to the cell

it might be an interesting experiment to play with different chokes with an ammeter before and after the choke to see how they are working at restricting the electrons
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 05:46:08 am
maybe combining RF with DC pulsing?

see now this is what i have been trying for a while to accomplish but have had no success..........in order for this to work i would have to have a system much like stan's with a adjustable frequency generator in control of the analog generator.........then have the pulse gating and duty cycle pulse train pull that pulsed dc signal through the primary coil.


in stan's older setup's such as figure 8xa in the independant report he takes a variac full wave rectified to accomplish his "variable amplitude unipolar pulsed dc signal"....and haas teh signal optocoupled with a gating pulse signal........this then gates the unipolar signal to accomplish gated unipolar pulse trains with variable amplitude control via the variac knob.......this might be by far teh easiest circuit to replicate......we need something to understand what the hell is actually going on here.

when i have free time again i will continue reading over and over......there is one last thing left and it is killing me.

i have already tried both bifilar connections.

since dankie is in complete denial he will have to wait to try it out himself.

but the last thing i am doing is lieing about a damn bifilar connection.......i am serious..... one works and the other doesn't that is the way it is if you want to believe me or not......YOU WILL SEE SOONER OR LATER.

AT MIKEMONGO:

How would i meausre the phase difference in the tube cell if it is a unipolar pulse........unipolar means it will never pass the Ovolt line and thus is not alternating current.......

at outlawstc.....once again i have no idea......it might work it might not.......but the minute you start reconnecting the chokes to the primary then i stop my attention towards it.......IF IT IS DIFFERENT THEN STAN'S CIRCUITS, CONNECTIONS, AND PAPERS then i do not entertain it.......i am 100% here to replicate.......but by all means who knows it could work.......but you would have to be the one to test it out.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 06:11:31 am
You already said to me it gave you a nice square wave from the secondary @ 450 volts , Indeed I will see . To me a square wave signal= excellent , faster rise time  , oscillations are not limited to a specific waveform you know .

The "unipolar" you talk about is nothing thats unique to the VIC , these are called pulse transformers .

http://www.butlerwinding.com/elelectronic-transformer/pulse_transformer/

To summarize, Winding capacitances ( wich you have plenty of) and leakage inductances act to increase rise time. ( They also generate trailing edges which is discussed later. ) They may also contribute to spurious oscillations. In a typical pulse transformer design, core loss does not have much effect.

Lets just order one and see how they are made .
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 06:14:48 am
alright to settle the bifilar mystery once and for all i will connect the coils both ways and show there meter readings, scope shots, and connections via photos and a pretty mspaint-ish drawing.

when i have time.....as the semester draws to an end i have to start to focus on my school work again.

there is far too much confusion based upon patent drawings......it is driving me nuts.......i have already connected it both ways.....dankie's way was a complete flop....NOTHING.......the correct dot orientation way.....actually produced a second pulse on an off pulse and created a magnetic field around the inductor and amplified the voltage to 1060 volts from a 5 volt input.

WHO KNOWS I MIGHT HAVE MISSED SOMETHING.......i just want to figure this out......and i will gladly  try both connections again.

i don't care about all this bickering nonsense i honestly want to just finish this and get it over with......i have spent far too much time, effort and MONEY on trying to better the world.......in all honesty that is all i want to do...make the world a better place.

i feel like this "project" is driving me insane.

this is the one "overunity" device that has A SH!TLOAD of paper work, images, documents, patents, actual pictures or the pieces, and over-all information out there then any other device......and we still can't figure it out........h0ly sh!t this is pathetic.

for the sake of life......something.........anything.

i am so tired........and now this is me ranting.

i will retry the "other" bifilar connection.

i am going to sleep.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 06:20:41 am
Its ok Kinesis , I get it , I better do this myself .

You do your thing and I do my thing .

And I just found you a partner from orlando , he will message you soon on some other site  . He's gonna make the VIC and has nice equipment kinda like you .
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 06:32:44 am
nice.....i am out of straws......so i am going to go back and connect the bifilar the other way..........who knows maybe the 2 times i tried it your way i was doing something wrong.

i can only hope that that is what happened........I REALLY WANT THIS TO WORK.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 14:22:34 pm
maybe combining RF with DC pulsing?


AT MIKEMONGO:

How would i meausre the phase difference in the tube cell if it is a unipolar pulse........unipolar means it will never pass the Ovolt line and thus is not alternating current.......


Have you looked at it?  Make sure your probe is grounded to the primary's ground.

To check the phase of the signals do the following.

If you have 2 HV scope probes, probe both cell connections at the same time
and it will show whether they are in phase or not.

If  you only have one HV probe sync your scope off the signal driving the primary,
then look at the signal of one of the cell connections & note the timing of
it is compared to the primary signal.  Then probe the opposite connection of
the cell & derive the difference.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 21, 2009, 19:22:39 pm

Have you looked at it?  Make sure your probe is grounded to the primary's ground.


see here is the difference....you cannot do that.....becuase the tube cell is on an isolated ground it is not to be connected to the primary ground.

the primary and vic tube connections are 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GROUNDS.....i would short out the vic circuit if connected as you state.

then you will not be getting correct signals.

please rethink what is going on in stanleys circuit.



@DANKIE:

this may sound odd but i was thinking about the bifilar connections in my sleep and what i realized was that there are really 2 ways to connect your version of the bifilar......one with the directional flow towards the cell as in the red arrow (i think this is what i have tried....i really cannot remember due to the fact i never thought about this before.).....or one with the directional flow towards the diode as in blue.....i will try both methods.

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/flowupbifi.jpg)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/flowdownbifi.jpg)
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 22, 2009, 14:23:29 pm

Have you looked at it?  Make sure your probe is grounded to the primary's ground.


see here is the difference....you cannot do that.....becuase the tube cell is on an isolated ground it is not to be connected to the primary ground.

the primary and vic tube connections are 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GROUNDS.....i would short out the vic circuit if connected as you state.

then you will not be getting correct signals.

please rethink what is going on in stanleys circuit.

I hope you read the patents and tech brief better than you read forum posts.


What I said was connect your oscilloscope ground clip
to the primary winding ground.(the battery negative or whatever your using for negative on the primary side)
 

This will give you a reference to understand what is coming out of  the transformer.
And yes I know that the output of the transformer is floating potentials.


The phase of the signals at the tubes really needs to be known.


Oh and another thought.
I don't think there will be enough power available to
cause damage, but high resistance wire is commonly
used as a heating element and the SS wire falls into that category.
 
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 23, 2009, 06:05:46 am
it seems unfiltered pulses are better then square waves.......regardless either will work.......but in stans earlier work he used unfiltered dc pulsed on and off at a 50
5 duty cycle......then those cycles gated.

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/unfiltered2.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/unfiltered3.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/unfiltered.jpg)
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 23, 2009, 07:26:12 am
A post just for fun,, something to do and look at..
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 23, 2009, 20:29:58 pm
If the transformer is good then w/e input wave form will have the same waveform on the secondary .

If you got square waves thats perfect .
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 30, 2009, 04:30:41 am
About the arcing.... there is no way arcing will occur between the WFC gap when filed with water.


this is what i am talkign about...from the patent i referenced i call it arcing also.....it is not a plasma arc but a leap of current across a gap.....technically that is arcing.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/4304.jpg)

and from what i am understanding now is that as you apply the positive voltage to one plate it will begin to pull a negative charge from the opposing plate from the ground....if positive amplitude is continually increased then it would arc......the positive voltage amplitude is to be raised just enough to almost cause arcing.

it works like lightning...negative reaches out ot meet positive....this is why stan has the positive potential seperate from the negative potential in the graph below....it occurs just like this........this is what i have noticed how it works when i bring it to the point of shorting out.....anything beyond what i have drwan would be shorting it out and current would arc over.

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/polarity.jpg)

this is why in the later methods the bifilar winding will cuase the pulses from both sides of the tubes.


if you can just play around with this earlier patent it will yield a very good understanding of hte water splitting process.

and this is what i was talking about when i said bringing it almost to the point of arcing.....
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/kinesisfilms/nothot.jpg)

i think stan realized that voltage did have the ability to split water and this patent was his realization that there was a method around faraday......now all he ahd to do was remove the resistor that was holding current back and replace it with a magnetic field......and if you do what i have tried and explained step by step in the beginning of this thread you will also realize the water does not become hot or filled with gunk as it would normally.......this is the beginning concept.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on April 30, 2009, 18:46:25 pm
Ok, so if that is what Stan calls Arcing, then we doomed since arcing starts at about 1.6 volts
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2009, 08:26:28 am
arcing for me doesn't start around 1.6 volts at all......what quality of water are you using.....it all depends on the resistance....higher resistance higher voltage amplitude!.....it is all here......and dankie i can't seem to watch the videos you are referring to.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 01, 2009, 17:31:31 pm
arcing for me doesn't start around 1.6 volts at all......what quality of water are you using.....it all depends on the resistance....higher resistance higher voltage amplitude!.....it is all here......and dankie i can't seem to watch the videos you are referring to.

Yes, I agree, It depends on the water, but in the end arcing does occur at low voltages.

With my tap water I do get arcing at about 1.6 volts. it is in the low miliamps. This is another factor, What is the minimun current leak to consider arcing?
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 02, 2009, 17:18:28 pm
Yes, I agree, It depends on the water, but in the end arcing does occur at low voltages.

With my tap water I do get arcing at about 1.6 volts. it is in the low miliamps. This is another factor, What is the minimun current leak to consider arcing?

you are right...and i have no idea for the minimum currnet leak that causes arcing but i will find out.

i will do some tests come monday with different resistances and there "arcing" amplitude and current levels.

i would assume that the arcing level of current would be consistant regardless of the conditions.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 06, 2009, 22:52:12 pm
alright electrojolt  here are the numbers for what is going on for my tests on stans early patents...and here are hte basics with no resistor between the ground and negative tube....aka NO ELECTRON INHIBITOR EFFECT.

i am using a little bit under a 3 inch vic tube with .5 inner diameter .75 outer wall space .0625.
i am using unfiltered dc power.....aka unipolar pulsed dc.
also i am using tap water.

the measured capacitance was 34 microfarads. (quite large)

at 13 volt amplitude
it was at .644 amps

at 16.4 volt amplitude
it was at .847 amps

at 18.2 volts amplitude
it was at .987 amps

at 22.3 volts amplitude
it was at 1.33 amps

at 32 volts amplitude
it was at 1.8 amps......it broke down at approximately 57.6 watts....IE: current arc over.

if you take the average resistance of each of these measurements (i am only using one meter and i have to go back and forth between settings this is not accurate but an estimate)

the average resistance from the above measurements is R = (17.77+16.76+20.19+18.44+19.36)/5 = 18.5 ohms....so the tap water has a resistnace of 18.5 ohms.

water in a capacitor wit hthe specifications as stated above can only handle a certain amount of watts...this is why stanley stayed around 40 watts input power.....anymore then this would arc over the capcitor.



so it appears to me that you have around 50-60 watts max you can put into a cell (with the above specifications, cell diameters, and water resistance) it is how you use that 40 watts that will determine your output.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 07, 2009, 22:03:34 pm
Your water is defenetly cleaner than mine...

I have a question, how did you measure the capacitance of the cell?

When I try to use any of my 3 Cap meters, I get no reading at all.

Also 34 Microfarads, that can't be right.

http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Plate-Capacitor-Calculator.phtml

One time I was persuaded to insulate the tubes, my cell was a little bigger, also 3" long but using 1" and 3/4 diam tubes.

and the capacitance of the insulated tubes with water (Real Capacitor) was 8nf.

also when I calculated using the web page above, the results was also close to the 8nf.

so your cell with smaller surface area has to be less than 8nf.

Jolt
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 01:28:04 am
i know something is wrong with my capacitance.

but i have taken both of my capacitance meters and placed just the test probes in the water no ss tubes.....just probes in water shows an average reading of 2 microfarads.....

i really haven't a clue to my water situation.......

i have placed the electrodes in water again and tested it only to have it still reveal around 30 microfarads with both my meters.

any ideas as to why an incorrect reading......the container it is in is plastic...the same material used for cooking ware or storage.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 01:34:55 am
hummm, probes in water and you get 2 micro.. there must be something wrong with your meter.

when I try to measure capacitance of the wfc using either 100hz or 1khz modes with my meter it just  scans forever, no result at all.

by the way, this is the meter I use:
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 01:39:40 am
damn.....i have a protek cl200 inductance/capacitance meter........and your common ideal 61-361 multimeter.

i have no idea about scannign frequencies in meters, but both of my meters cannot be wrong.....they are both showing the same numbers.

unless water is not considered a dialetric material to them.

thank you for your reply.

edit: my cl200 scans at 80hz and 900hz and is considered high accuracy.

also: the resistance across my tubes and water is constantly changing and never a solid number.....continually going up and down up and down through a wide range......usually in the kilohm range.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 01:45:54 am
unless, yours uses very low voltage, below current leak, but even if, your readings are way too high. it should be in the low nano farads.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 02:04:15 am
then i am baffled......

my meters clearly do not work with water.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 02:30:09 am
damn.....i have a protek cl200 inductance/capacitance meter........and your common ideal 61-361 multimeter.

i have no idea about scannign frequencies in meters, but both of my meters cannot be wrong.....they are both showing the same numbers.

unless water is not considered a dialetric material to them.

thank you for your reply.

edit: my cl200 scans at 80hz and 900hz and is considered high accuracy.

also: the resistance across my tubes and water is constantly changing and never a solid number.....continually going up and down up and down through a wide range......usually in the kilohm range.
I have watched the resistance vary greatly when the pulse is applied and this makes sense as the surface area and density of the water are changing with the H2 and O2 being released.  However in steady state the resistance is fairly steady.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 04:45:51 am
burntwire: sorry i didn't clarify my myself.....when i use my meter to measure the resistance across my tubes a water it cannot lock onto a resistance.....and just goes up and down in the kilohm range
 
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 05:51:19 am
I just checked my water...

using my LCR meter, I get 7.7 ohms

then using my extech multi-meter I get about 15K, but like you, it changes, and on my case it is increasing, as I'm typing this, it is now 20K and climing.

now, I just swiched from Ohms to volts, and the cell had 240 milivolts, and dropping fast, now 222 mili.

so as I was measuring Ohms, the multimeter was charging the cell, and that is why the resistance using a multimeter changes.

now I checked the output signal on the LCR meter when in Resistance mode using the scope, and it has an AC wave. and that is why when using the LCR, it measures the acurate value 7.7ohms.

The Multimeter uses DC to measure resistance.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 05:59:52 am
you are a genius.

i truly thank you for this.

thank you thank you thank you.
Title: Re: Voltage Potentials Ability to Perform Work
Post by: Login to see usernames on May 08, 2009, 15:53:50 pm
you are a genius.

i truly thank you for this.

thank you thank you thank you.

You are very welcome, I'm glad I was able to help.

Jolt