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Projects by members => Projects by members => Timeshell => Topic started by: timeshell on January 04, 2013, 05:48:23 am

Title: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 04, 2013, 05:48:23 am
There are a couple things I would like to add to this thread.
1)  As I'm sure most of you know that if you over charge the coils, they will pull more current. A coil operates the opposite way a of a capacitor, where as while charging a capacitor the current starts off high and then current drops as a capacitor reaches 5 Time Constants. An inductor starts off with low current and the current rises and peaks as you reach 5 Time Constants. So you don't want to over charge the coils or you will get high currents. You want to stop charging the coils before it reaches 5TC.

I've read your comments about this in the past.  While I understood what you meant by this, I didn't fully understand how to apply it.

A couple days ago I blew up the transistors in my power supply (again) so have been without my  power source.   I picked up some transistors today to repair it but it was late by the time I got home.  Simply for curiosity sake, I plugged a pair of 9V in series (18V) into the circuit to power it.  I got a result I was not expecting that may be of interest.

 I had more gas production at 5 mA than I would normally have using my power supply.   In fact usually I have almost no production whatsoever at 5 mA.  Although the production wasn't very significant it was definitely more than I usually have.

My usual power supply is a 35 amp power supply usually drawing about 3 A through my experiments with the same coils.  Obviously a 9V battery cannot put out 3 A.  I interpret my results to mean that up until now I have been over-saturating my coils with current, limiting its ability to allow voltage to do the work.

It seems part of the trick is to limit the current in the primary, as I suspect Tony is indicating above with the TC comments, as well as trying to limit the current with the chokes in the VIC circuit.

Is there any possibility in getting the circuit to automatically detect primary coil saturation so as to limit the current accordingly?

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 04, 2013, 06:23:55 am
That is very interesting and you maybe right TS. If you look at Stan's Voltage Control Circuit (VCCrkt) and Driver Circuit (DCrkt) along with the VIC Transformer, it is set so that the circuit has a very high impedance to the Primary coil. I have attached an image of the section I'm talking about and I will explain what I mean.

Ok, the TIP120 from the VCCrkt is driving the 2N3055, Darlington Configuration with Emitter Follower. This will increase the impedance by Beta^2. The input impedance of the Darlington configuration is quite high. Switching of the second transistor may be slow, so a resistor is commonly tied between the emitters to increase the speed switching. This will also increase the 220 ohm resistor so that it would look something like this:

Z = Beta * Beta * 220 Ohms

According to the TIP120 datasheet, this transistor has a Beta = min. of 1,000.
The datasheet for the 2N3055, Beta = max. of 70
Z = 1,000 * 70 * 220 = 15.4M ohms

That's a pretty high impedance from the power supply!!! This would allow impedance matching to take place very easily and a more efficient power transfer!
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 04, 2013, 14:51:12 pm
Yes Tony,but as you stated before,and i also saw in real life,if you restrict the amps on the primary side,you also restrict the magnetic field and as a result the output voltage will be verry low
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 04, 2013, 15:35:52 pm
Yes Tony,but as you stated before,and i also saw in real life,if you restrict the amps on the primary side,you also restrict the magnetic field and as a result the output voltage will be verry low

Seems to me that if the coils are current saturated, we may not be getting the proper resonant effect we are looking for.

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 04, 2013, 23:54:33 pm
That's right TS! The way the power supply is configured, it will keep the transformer from becoming saturated.

Here's a simple way of making the Voltage Control for testing purposes.
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 05, 2013, 00:09:36 am
That's right TS! The way the power supply is configured, it will keep the transformer from becoming saturated.

Here's a simple way of making the Voltage Control for testing purposes.

This may be a somewhat redundant question, but you don't have a 2n3055 in your schematics for your VIC.  I presume these attachments with the 2n3055 are to add on top of your VIC circuit.

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 05, 2013, 01:15:48 am
Yea that's right...I never added this to the circuit mostly because some people may have a current limiting power source so that they can control the current to the primary coil.
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 05, 2013, 05:37:18 am
Great,Tonywoodside.

this can replace variac of meyer,solid state variac. in dc current limit by duty cycle but voltage limit by resistor.duty cycle can't limit voltage,this why meyer use variac.IMHO.

thanks
geenee
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 05, 2013, 09:22:54 am
hey guys have you checked  http://www.alexpetty.com/2011/06/16/simple-wfc-energization-circuit-by-alex-petty/
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 05, 2013, 11:41:04 am
from Alex's circuit,he use gate freq=50 hz,pulse freq=10 khz.

-80mH and 20nF,from calculate resonant=3978.87 hz
-40mH and 20nF,from calculate resonant=5626.98 hz

he said 40kv but no use correct resonant frequency.why??---->harmonic frequency.from 50 hz and 10 khz to hit resonant frequency!! i think.

thanks
geenee
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 06, 2013, 00:23:41 am

-80mH and 20nF,from calculate resonant=3978.87 hz
-40mH and 20nF,from calculate resonant=5626.98 hz


You're a little off with your numbers there...they should be:

80mH & 20nF = 2814 Hz
40mH & 20nF = 3979 Hz


*rounded to nearest whole number*
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 06, 2013, 07:08:57 am
what equation do you calculate(LC)? Tonywoodside.

thanks
geenee
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 06, 2013, 07:21:52 am
(http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/12091.png)
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 06, 2013, 08:43:09 am
To Tonywoodside.
about basic voltage control circuit.if use tip120 with 3055 then impedance will be high(Z=15Mohms).if impedance matching,Z primary=Z secondary.impedance of secondary =15Mohms --->very big coil???i am not good in electronic. Is impedance matching importance??

thanks
geenee
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 06, 2013, 18:35:39 pm
Yes, impedance matching is very important in electronics. It allows the most efficient power transfer and a perfect signal.
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 06, 2013, 23:01:19 pm
That's right TS! The way the power supply is configured, it will keep the transformer from becoming saturated.

Here's a simple way of making the Voltage Control for testing purposes.

Just added this inline with the coil.  I am FINALLY getting a gated wave form I have been looking for!

The voltage control is a definite must have to make this work.

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 07, 2013, 00:34:58 am
Did you build the power supply like the one I showed?
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 07, 2013, 01:31:57 am
Did you build the power supply like the one I showed?

If you're referring to the simple voltage control image, yes, that is what I built.  I am definitely getting some interesting results now using the voltage control module with the cell.

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 07, 2013, 01:34:10 am
Awesome! Glad it works for you as it is a very important part of the system!
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 07, 2013, 01:45:45 am
Awesome! Glad it works for you as it is a very important part of the system!

Have you determined how or at what point to set the voltage control at related to the coil you are trying to charge?  In other words, the proper way to tweak it?

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2013, 04:31:34 am
 ;D   I just got my coil and WFC vibrating at higher than 800kHz!!!

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2013, 12:13:04 pm
;D   I just got my coil and WFC vibrating at higher than 800kHz!!!

TS
Wow what kind of pulsing gear do you have?
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 09, 2013, 14:00:59 pm
;D   I just got my coil and WFC vibrating at higher than 800kHz!!!

TS
Wow what kind of pulsing gear do you have?

Heh, just Tony's VIC circuit, slightly modified.  Was using a relatively small coil, all 5 wires at 1:1, bifilar.   Didn't do anything earth (water) shattering.  Made my TIP120 start to smoke.

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 12, 2013, 03:35:46 am
I think ima bout to ask a silly question but I can not find any information as to the value of the variable inductor on the negative leg of the transformor.....is there specific info about that or does it really matter?
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 12, 2013, 03:44:15 am
I think ima bout to ask a silly question but I can not find any information as to the value of the variable inductor on the negative leg of the transformor.....is there specific info about that or does it really matter?

There is no specific details, to my knowledge, from Meyers on why is tuned.  There are a few theories floating about in the forum. 

TS
Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 13, 2013, 07:44:44 am
I found resonance around 2.5kHz using 2.8H and 3.4H coils wired out of phase.

A couple of points.  I believe the Resonance is just the LC circuit resonance, and in that case, ONE inductor. or 2 does not matter, they both act 180 degrees out of phase of the capacitor.
(Simulate it.  It works the same)...  But also, this CLEARLY implies that the water does not impact the circuit.   It is the resonance for the High Voltage, not the resonance of the water, which is
OMG so very high... (Like TeraHertz).

But finding resonant frequencies is interesting.  If you are using the VIC, what do you include for the inductance of the transformer?  Also, do you really have 3.8H Inductors?  I used a small spool
of magnet wire making a 655mh inductor.

What is the capacitance of your tube (as you calculated it)?

At resonance, are you getting a decent increase in voltage?  (KV or MV?)

Have you tested you driving circuit by plugging in a straight capacitor and inductor, and having it find resonance, etc?

Finally, is the final game plan to use ONE vic for the entire array of water capacitors?  (I Certainly hope so.  I can't imagine driving the process with 9 tubes,
9 VICs and 9 circuits).  Since the water capacitors are the same, they can be set in parallel or series and net out the same.  (Although we dont want to be
switching the +/- poles of the capacitors, so in parallel it is)

Title: Re: Restrict Amps with Source Voltage Amplitude
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 17, 2013, 19:29:47 pm
Something else to chew on.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Engineering-1356/Inductor-time-constant-L.htm
http://macao.communications.museum/eng/Exhibition/secondfloor/moreinfo/2_3_6_ResistanceInductance.html
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_16/3.html

TS