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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: AncientMist on January 19, 2011, 03:11:49 am

Title: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2011, 03:11:49 am
Ok. I am not sure if anyone has put this together but here goes.

Stan did point out the theory/process in his Tech Brief and his patents and here is why. First I am going to talk about the principle of electronics of a general nature.

Electricity needs voltage and current. Voltage in electrical is pressure. Current is the flow of electrons per sec. So what is the flow of electrons which is current? Well you need voltage of course, but what voltage does is push the physical mass of the electrons physical mass which is the electron out of each orbit of copper or related material to produce movement to create electricity. The reason this can be done is the force of the outer orbit of the electron in copper is very weak. Voltage pushes the electron. This physical force of the electrons creates current. Ok.

Now if we look at Stans equation he points out out acceleration = Force/mass. Mass is the physical component and the Force is Voltage which is represent by the formula of two charges/radius^2. This is directly related to the flow of current.

So how does this work for Stans process. Well it is easy. The physical mass of his circuit was directly relate to the atoms of Oxygen and Hydrogen aka(Water). The higher voltage is needed to push the physical mass of the atoms apart. The force of voltage does need to be in both opposition to each other.  Meaning a high positive and high negative voltage on both sides. One of the positive voltage pulls the oxygen atom while the negative side pulls the hydrogen atom. The reason for the high voltages is looked at because you are pulling a very much larger mass.  :)

Now I know most everyone know this but the point I am make is how his circuit does not use current. He is building a high voltage to create the force need to act on the water molecule. The only current draw is the circuit resistance getting to build a charge across the capacitor.

It is no different than the theory of electricity which has the same principles. Instead you are looking at it at a larger scale from the atom itself.

This is how voltage can work by splitting the water molecule!!

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2011, 14:11:53 pm
Yes! Thats exactly what i'm saying!

If you put 12volts on the water and it have a gap of 1mm you have an electric field of 12kv/m. This is a huge force acting on the ions inside the water. The fact is that if the water don't conduct electricity (pure water) you get a very tiny current when you apply 12v however you are providing the separation of the ions h+ and oh-. What stan do is to than collect this ions generating electricity while stabilizing and or destabilizing the ions. When you close the circuit you generate the gas. Stan went even further and used the heating element to avoid the stabilization of the gases so they came out of the water as ions as electrons are emited cause of the heat. Is very much like creating a fusion reaction between the two sides of the coin so thats why he could run a car with very small amount of gas. I found a formula for particle acceleration that say acceleration is equal to the charge of the particle divided by its mass than multiplied by the electric field. Basically is right however the acceleration would be limitless being even much bigger than that of light speed. So all this to say stan used some of the proton 938Mev and electron 511Kev rest energy to cause thermal expansion. The total energy of a particle is its kinetic energy plus its rest energy. If you apply 12v on a particle it will travel from one electrode to the other and when it complete the travel it will have a kinetic energy of 12ev. 1 ev is = to the value of a charge but is a measure of energy in joules. Ev is charge divided by potential difference. Voltage is how many joules you have per coulomb.

The thing is that if the both voltages across the water being positive and negative have no relation to each other in the sense that it is not connected physically. You can still have a big deal of electric field without current leaking. I mean two transformers or only one with isolated secondaries connected only with one wire obviously thru a diode. Maybe two 100Mohm resistor are needed just to complete the circuit.

I'm trying to find how to calculate the ions speed as to find the frequency you can apply. WIth the right equipment and materials i could determine this empirically, however the investors are still afraid. Soon i will have a lab with limitless funds and a mathematician friend to work on it than will be very easy.

The real big problem is that you must trap the ions kinetically so they can become electricity. Stan used the coil so he could short the circuit without shorting the source. When he shorted the circuit the coil start to get charged and when he opened the coil discharge again. This is what he meant by restrict the current in a dead short condition, and frequency doubling. Now that i have more time i would like to work on this but i don't have a decent oscilloscope nor money to buy more components. Hopefully a good soul will invest in me soon.

I'm quite certain that stan didn't used SS or at least that is not the best option. Maybe and i say only maybe he succeeded in creating so much force that even the SS worked.

The thing is that you apply 12v and lets say during the charge of the water 1ma flowed, This mean that than all the ions of the water will be glued on the electrodes, with contrary same voltage and with much greater current thus more electrical energy than went in.

Steve once connected the oscilloscope to the water applied maybe 12 volts and than disconnected and than noticed something that at that time we discussed and thought to be a back emf. Well it wasn't, it was the real voltage of the ions. This pretty much prove what i'm saying.

I'm glad you understood it AnsientMist. If you read my last 20 posts you might understand even more. I'm trying to explain this since a long time.

I think we should work with a water very very pure maybe using 1000volts this complicate a bit the switching.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2011, 15:48:46 pm
Sebosfato,every cell that Stan had was made with stainless steal,that I am certain,because I've seen all of them personally.And I do know what stainless looks like.
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2011, 16:31:58 pm
Hey sebosfato.

Your process does follow in the same manner. Finding the relationship of the acting force on the electrons in the water molecule. That is true and is better suited for the use of the extraction circuit. This does also happen in the WFC. But in my opinion the voltage force is needs to be directly related to the atoms of the water molecule because the atom has a very much larger mass.  The mass of the atom either hydrogen or oxygen needs to considered.

In sense any frequency can work as long as you build a high voltage potential on both sides.  Stan just used resonance to build this high voltage. Both sides of voltage potential physicals pulls the atoms just like Voltage pushes the electrons to make electricity. It is just looked at a different way but it is needed to have two opposite Voltages of the same magnitude.

Because of this I am hoping to solve mathematically how the basic principles of electrical theory (which came from electrical physics) can prove Stan’s work. I am going to work on this today since I cannot contribute to the building process until the future.. But soon.... Cause I want to so bad!!!!
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 19, 2011, 17:30:46 pm
Hello Dynodon,
i know you saw them and i actually believe that might be possible to do it with ss. I just think that maybe along the years maybe his cells could have being changed to SS or maybe there was a coating on the inside of the electrodes and it were taken off just to make the thing stop working... I don't really know, just think is possible. Or maybe it can work with ss and maybe stan or someone changed the things to not work and keep the secret... The strange thing is that from stan words its very possible to do work but one must be not only an electrical engineer to correctly design the circuit but must be also a physicist with knowledge in real particle acceleration and plasma to understand fully and be able to replicate what he did. He talks to those with really knowledge in the art.

When i say kinetically trapped i mean the ions must get into the vacancies of the metal much like cold fusion when deuterium get into the palladium "absorbed". When i first heard about cold fusion i don't remember when, I heard that a hell of energy could be generated but not only heat but also  electricity since than i never heard anything about it to generate electricity directly. Anyway stan said it was possible so as my friend so i start from the point that i believe them and started dissecting to find what really happens to be able to do this. My friend said that with the right materials and his secret the thing works, when i asked him about ss he said he didn't know how to do with it, i think that for the same reason i said.

The thing is that SS is an alloy or mixture of different metals witch have different masses sizes so the vacancies are much smaller so the probability of trapping ions there are not pretty big. On the other side is known that the D orbit of the platinum kind attracts the hydrogen thats why it works as a catalyst. So thats what i'm saying maybe the SS is enough to make the reaction, but if we were to potentialize the effect to be able to see better the effect maybe some other materials should be used at least at first to understand better whats going on.

Voltage is = to separation of given density of charge.

Hello AncientMist,

I think the resonance is used not only to create the high potential but also for being able to take advantage of the energy created there to make the potential even higher. Under resonance you can recirculate the energy, basically is a very big storage mean able to store many kw of power for 100 of cycles..

Yes and Another thing to consider is the density of the water and the resistance against the movement of the ion to find its maximum speed and maybe even a relativistic adjustment to limit the speed in relation to the speed of light.

You might be even right here and i also think that with proper equipment and a very strong potential you could even work at any frequency but would be very nice to know the maximum frequency and do get there from the math too. =) Go on!
Meyer controlled the voltage and the frequency, i think he did this to have perfect control over the impedance to perfectly match and transfer the max force possible to the electric field.

I'm very happy that we are having this discussion my friends. And i can assure all you that very soon all of us will have many reasons to party. We are going to work together in a new economy based on water. I consider all you the most important people in the world so i want you to work with me for a better world.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2011, 19:21:06 pm
Sebo,

I became a believer today.  Here's what I did.  I got Tony & Steve's latest resonance scope shot from their discussion on my screen at around 3980hz using 90% duty going though a 2.36Henry each 4" bifilar wound with 22awg iron powder toroid about thumb width.  This was connected to two 3/4" stainless 403 strips 5 inches tall from K & Y from the local hardware and gapped at 1/2MM, glued with goop and enameled on the outside.  A silver coated solid telfon 18 awg lead wire was silver soldered to each strip.

I use a variac memo 420 like setup with an irfbc40 mosfet and DSEP12-12B diode and pure 11ppm TDS reverse osmosis water in a graduated cylinder.

Strange gurgling from the coil announces the start of the phenomenon with adjustments to frequency, voltage, and pulse width made.

give it a try, perhaps the inductor has to be huge compared to the cell for this to work

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 21, 2011, 22:02:22 pm
Hi Kickbackemf,

Very cool! Thanks for the info. Did you noticed gas production? What were the voltage across the water? I'm finishing my new setup of the vic i'm going to have it all finished maybe tomorrow or sunday. I'm finishing the variable coil right now.

Thanks again.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 00:18:58 am
Sebo,

Gas starts at 15v and goes good at around 30v but then milliamps start creeping in.  You can crank voltage up and use amps it seems.  This phenomenon is all new for me so I'll have to triple check everything yet.

The strips are 1" wide not 3/4".  Voltage with ungrounded probe is 1460v at cell+. ????  The jump and blossoming of the waveform when resonance is reached is quite dramatic.  I'll be trying short trains of pulses next I suppose.

kb,

ps, throw one together for yourself
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 00:19:37 am
http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/10_Production_of_a_Fuel_Gas/index.html (http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/10_Production_of_a_Fuel_Gas/index.html)
Figure 1 notice the resonant coil is indicated as an isolated from secondary coil

As the stepped-up pulse enters first inductor (formed from 100 turns of 24 gauge wire 1 inch in diameter), an electromagnetic field is formed around the inductor, voltage is switched off when the pulse ends, and the field collapses and produces another pulse of the same polarity; i.e., another positive pulse is formed where the 50% duty cycle was terminated. Thus, a double pulse frequency is produced; however, in a pulse train of unipolar pulses, there is a brief time when pulses are not present.

This mean that the inductor is not in the same core of the transformer.

Than

http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/70_Thermal_Energy_From_Gases/index.html (http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/70_Thermal_Energy_From_Gases/index.html)

Fig 7 and 8 Hydrogen Gas ions (negatively charged)
Light absorption _ Electron entrapment

Fig 9 110v 60hz going into a full bridge rectifier than to the primary of a step up transformer, That is only gated to create pulse trains... That goes into another step up (vic now) Than to the diode and the two separated charging chokes ( being one variable with a shorted segment) !!!

fig 11 Pot 59 control the intensity of the optocouplers diodes to control the power output probably....

Very clear his Pulse shaping network
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 00:25:11 am
Sebo,

Gas starts at 15v and goes good at around 30v but then milliamps start creeping in.  You can crank voltage up and use amps it seems.  This phenomenon is all new for me so I'll have to triple check everything yet.

The strips are 1" wide not 3/4".  Voltage with ungrounded probe is 1460v at cell+. ??? ?  The jump and blossoming of the waveform when resonance is reached is quite dramatic.  I'll be trying short trains of pulses next I suppose.

kb,

ps, throw one together for yourself

Nice! I'm doing one for testing here... when ready i post a video and some pictures.
Whet you mean by ungrounded probe?
I think that your water is not much pure, with my water here for 30ma i get 400v across the tubes...  no gas however...
Br
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 04:24:44 am
sebo,

re: probe,

not grounded just connected with probe end, no strap, ground plug unconnected at oscope panel

ppm of dissolved solids in natural tap water is around 200-400 ppm tds, an hour of running a cell brings it all up to over 500 ppm tds anyway...

if starting with distilled or RO water is giving some benefit I'd like to know what it is...

correction, I typed 403 steel when I used K & S 430 steel strips at .028 thick

btw, they easily beat the 316L 1/16" thick otherwise identical strips in a quick side by side production observation
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 04:38:08 am
The primary coil of the torroid is subject to a 50% duty cycle pulse. The torroidal pulsing coil provides a voltage step-up from the pulse generator in excess of five times, although the relative amount of step-up is determined by pre-selected criteria for a particular application. As the stepped-up pulse enters first inductor (formed from 100 turns of 24 gauge wire 1 inch in diameter), an electromagnetic field is formed around the inductor, voltage is switched off when the pulse ends, and the field collapses and produces another pulse of the same polarity; i.e., another positive pulse is formed where the 50% duty cycle was terminated. Thus, a double pulse frequency is produced; however, in a pulse train of unipolar pulses, there is a brief time when pulses are not present.By being so subjected to electrical pulses in the circuit of FIG. 1, water confined in the volume that includes the capacitor plates takes on an electrical charge that is increased by a step charging phenomenon occurring in the water capacitor. Voltage continually increases (to about 1000 volts and more) and the water molecule starts to elongate.The pulse train is then switched off; the voltage across the water capacitor drops to the amount of charge that the water molecules have taken on, i.e. voltage is maintained across the charged capacitor. The pulse train is then reapplied.Because a voltage potential applied to a capacitor can perform work, the higher the voltage potential, the more work is performed by a given capacitor. In an optimum capacitor that is wholly non-conductive, zero (0) current flow will occur across the capacitor. Thus, in view of an idealized capacitor circuit, the object of the water capacitor circuit is to prevent electron flow through the circuit, i.e. such as occurs by electron flow or leakage through a resistive element that produces heat. Electrical leakage in water will occur, however, because of some residual conductivity and impurities or ions that may be otherwise present in the water. Thus, the water capacitor is preferably chemically inert. An electrolyte is not added to the water.In the isolated water bath, the water molecule takes on charge, and the charge increases. The object of the process is to switch off the co-valent bonding of the water molecule and interrupt the sub-atomic force, i.e. the electrical force or electromagnetic force, that binds the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to form a molecule so that the hydrogen and oxygen separate.Because an electron will only occupy a certain electron shell (the shells are well known) the voltage applied to the capacitor affects the electrical forces inherent in the co-valent bond. As a result of the charge applied by the plates, the applied force becomes greater than the force of the co-valent bonds between the atom of the water molecule; and the water molecule becomes elongated. When this happens, the time share ratio of the electrons between the atoms and the electron shells is modified.In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath; electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process. There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are re-allocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated.In the process, the electrical resonance may be reached at all levels of voltage potential. The overall circuit is characterized as a "resonant charging choke" circuit which is an inductor in series with a capacitor that produces a resonant circuit. [SAMS Modern Dictionary of Electronics, Rudolff Garff, .COPYRGT. 1984, Howard W. Sams & Co. (Indianapolis, Ind.), page 859.]Such a resonant charging choke is on each side of the capacitor. In the circuit, the diode acts as a switch that allows the magnetic field produced in the inductor to collapse, thereby doubling the pulse frequency and preventing the capacitor from discharging. In this manner a continuous voltage is produced across the capacitor plates in the water bath; and the capacitor does not discharge. The water molecules are thus subjected to a continuously charged field until the breakdown of the co-valent bond occurs.As noted initially, the capacitance depends on the dielectric properties of the water and the size and separation of the conductive elements forming the water capacitor.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 05:10:35 am
I think that what stan mean here is that when the gate acts the gas is generated. He says basically...

In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath;

(the "isolated bath" gets positively charged in relation to the ground level...

electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process.

Ok there is minimum amp flow !!!

There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. !!!

Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are re-allocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated.

Here he talks that OH- ions are electrons and the charged atoms are the H+ [/size][/font]

Well

During the pulsing the water ions are attracted to their respective opposite polarity plate and when the gate acts they come back to reform by impact of ions and as such the H+ become neutralized and become gas...

Basically the important is to charge the water up to high volts and than let it discharge by it self and than the gas will be generated.

I think the Gate is very important. To reach the resonant action the inductor must be able to develop a second high voltage pulse with the only 1 ma for say that is flowing thru it and its discharge time constant must be matched so with the real impedance of the circuit considering the water losses. Than when high voltage is reached the gate is applied cause you must let it discharge to let the gas to be generated. This way he don't need to use high amperage. Makes sense. I think the coils in this case must be of a value to make the electrical resonance at higher frequency possible so you can hit water times faster than its time constant.

From the way he described seems to me that the bath being isolated seems to me with what i read in a patent about recycling of nuclear waste. In the patent they say that if you charge the radioactive material to -600kv its life time become very small cause the colombian forces of the electrons kind of absorb and dissipate the energy.

So what i'm saying is that maybe meyer added another source of very high voltage to the cell isolated from everything. Only one wire. The other wire connected to the outside of the bath maybe a sheet of copper that surround the policarbonate tube. The greater the capacitance the greater will be the charge into the water.
MAn This makes lot of sense " In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath; "

You cannot extract electrons from the water bath if you have connections only between two plates inside the bath.

OH BOY THIS IS GETING GOOD

So maybe the thing  is that he pulses low voltage between the tubes but he charge the water bath in relation to something static to add charge to the water.

Please tell me what you think?
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 05:28:54 am
Think of it we have the plates inside the water witch form one side of the capacitor. In the outside of the bath being it glass or being plexiglass we will have a capacitance that will be mainly determined by its thickness.

In the Independent International ... There is a sheet with the plexiglass characteristics... Hum ?? interesting!

So if you add a sheet of copper in its outside you form an isolated ground bath.

Why Stan Used all that Delrin?

So charging the water you eliminate the covalent bounding so applying a voltage across the zones allow you to create a charge and discharge all there inside of the water by physical impact. Particle oscillation as energy generator.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 06:11:40 am
Thinking yet again this is more than genial.

The vic sync pulse circuit clearly describes it! I think he created a synchronized way to cancel the covalent bound by the action of the electric fields while the pulse is applied to the plates.

Also i would say that only charging the inside tube in relation to the outer outer capacitance to very high kv will induce a voltage separation between the tubes.

I think that this is what he say in the newzealand video, when he say the water takes on a charge the oxygen atom will get more negative and the hydrogen atom will get more positive and say that when the oxygen become enough negative it will repel the covalent electron thus weakening the covalent bounding.

So we could add a charge to the bath and the electric field do the job. Than is just about creating the potential to the water to collide against it self to liberate the gas.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 16:16:16 pm

Stan yet in another patent http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/20_Voltage_Control_Circuit/index.html (http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/20_Voltage_Control_Circuit/index.html)
says the folowing:

The resonant cavity described and disclosed therein, is a result of the discovery that when the distance between two stationary bodies is equal in wavelength to the frequency of the movement of an object going back and forth therebetween, the movement of the object will go into resonance. The motion is greatly enhanced and with a repetitive sustained force. The principle applied to the hydrogen and oxygen gas generator of the present invention results in the movement of the water molecules and the atoms to an attractive field will be greatly enhanced when the frequency of the back and forth movement is matched to the wavelength of the distance between the pair of plate exciters.
The amplitude is increased to the minimum for resonance. The voltage amplitude thereafter is maintained at the minimum and raised from the minimum for an increase in gas generation. The minimum is the lower gradient level illustrated in the waveforms of the figures. Since resonance is a matter of matching a physical distance with frequency of the back and forth motion over that distance, matching the particular frequency to the particular wavelength, can be with either d.c. voltage pulses or the duty cycle pulses.
The resonant cavity is depicted in FIG. 4 pictorially. It is understood that the exciter plates 50a-50n of FIG. 1 become resonant cavities by matching the distance between the exciters to a pulse frequency of the same wavelength.
In FIG. 4 and 4C, the duty cycle pulses are matched in pulse repetition rate to the plate distance. In FIG. 4A and 4B, the frequency of the pulsed d.c. voltage is matched to the distance in wavelengths of the plate exciters. With the frequency of one of the set of pulses matched to the resonant wavelength, the frequency of the other set of pulses is varied to further control the electron leakage and/or to vary the rate of generation of the gasses.

What i see:
The wave length for 1mm gap would be laser frequency. So i think is not exactly this... So i guess still the frequency must be calculated by the ions drift speed from one side to the other to know the time will take for the ion to travel that distance. This must be matched with the duty cycle say stan. One thing is that the speed will depend on the voltage and distance and will be limited to the ion speed. So or will be full wave length or half so the ions encounter in the middle to generate the gas...

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 16:28:05 pm

The SCR diode is a duty cycle pulse former much in the same manner as the pulse former 27 of FIG. 1. The SCR diode 90 is operational in a conventional manner and the diode 91 is a conventional blocking diode. The operation and function of the resonant cavity is much in the same manner as that of FIG. 1 plate exciters 50a-50n.[/font][/size]

In a Hydrogen Resonant Cavity Furnace, the pulse repetition rate is matched to the wavelength distance between the two exciter plates to maximize the rate of generation to voltage amplitude. The flame is pulsed form a first gradient level to a lower gradient level--but not off. The lower gradient level is sufficient to maintain at all times the amplitude to sustain resonance.[/font][/color]

[/size]Synchronized with the voltage level control of the switching of the duty cycle pulse, is variable pulse circuit 97. The switch 95 provides the demand control to be programmed, that is, the voltage amplitude and the duty cycle pulses.[/size][/size] The SCR switching circuit 90 converts the d.c. voltage pulse output of the rectifier 15 to duty pulses. The duty cycle pulse being variable in pulse repetition rate to match the distance in wavelength of the spacing of the plate exciters 86 and 87. Diode 98 is a blocking diode.[/color]
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 16:53:52 pm
sebosfato,your one post you say that you can't extract electrons from the water with only the two leads hooked to the cell.If you go back and re-read the electron extracting circuit,and look at the schematics,you will see that the extraction only takes place when the pulses are in their off state.Then another circuit turns on and removes the electrons,again while the pulsing circuit is in it's off state.This circuit is tied into the positive wire going to the cell,and thats where the electrons are removed.
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 16:59:49 pm
Yes but theres the other EEC schematic with the series resistor too...

But actually what i mean Is that if you make of water and the plexyglass another capacitor, this one will have very good insulation... So you can charge the water and discharge thru the light emiting element to actually consume the electrons inside the bath. So that there is a voltage between the water and the outside of the plexyglass. Stan say that when water get charged if will have other forces acting on the covalent bound thus this will weaken it.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 17:08:46 pm
That sounds like you would just short out your high voltage altogether.Thats not how Stan did it.Don't try to reinvent the wheel.Besides,none of this is important,if we don't get the gasses made with high voltage.We need to make gas with high voltage ,before we can start to extract electrons,because it requires even higher voltage,10-20 kv.So without high voltage you arenot going to extract electrons.The high voltage is needed to pull the electrons from the hydrogen molecule.
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 17:10:10 pm
Anyway i'm thinking here and the best way to extract those electrons from the bath and to consume them is to have a spark gap so that when the voltage reach maybe 40kv across the plexiglass the gap fires discharging into a emissive element...

In my opinion there must be still another following the same principle and thus extract more electrons from the gases too.

The series inductance don't allow the gap to short the source...
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 17:17:21 pm
I'm saying this in reference to what stan said that in the process electrons will be ejected from the water bath. So bath and not the molecules them self.

If you allow the inner tubes to be one side of the capacitor and a conductive sheet outside of the container to be the other side of the capacitor, and you charge the capacitor being the water side the positive, you must agree with me that the electrons from the water will be directed to the outside forming the negative and leaving the water with less electrons... Now If you keep discharging and trying to consume this electrons you will end up with a deficiency of electrons in the bath. This raise the charge of the positive H+ ions and the negative charge of the oxygen atoms.. As the oxygen become more negative than it was this negatively will repel the covalent bound thus weakening it.

This is stans words from the NZ video The first part.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 17:27:32 pm
For the sake of clarity...

The aluminum represent one side of the capacitor and one of the plates of the cell the other being inside the water... !
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 17:45:17 pm
This is the vic sync pulse ...  You see the 0v is the outer tube both positives are the inner tube and the virtual ground is the outer side of the capacitor outside the bath...
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 18:04:38 pm
Yet more clear adding up another C3 to have two fields isolated from each other that adds up.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 19:17:01 pm
Who remember the fracture cell patent? Its extremely related with what i'm talking about!!!
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 22, 2011, 23:29:21 pm
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2011, 14:48:37 pm
I think there could be used 4 vics in conjunction with one cell. One to create the positive electric field and extract electron from the bath... Other to create the negative field and extract electron from the bath too... And Other to apply a voltage across the water.... And Other to extract electrons from the gas... The important is that all them to form isolated circuit as no electrons from an arbitrary ground can get into the circuit by its overall positive charge.

I think Delrin material will be the best insulation. Its thickness will depend on the electric field you re going to apply. In my opinion a spark gap must be used not only to protect the insulation but will be the mean for switching to create the electron extraction, in the following way.... When the voltage reach a maximum the spark gap fires and the electrons that were taken of the water become an ark that flashes a amp consuming device or a filament coated with some oxide that lower its work function. This way emission can be attained. This emission element will go inside the gas processor, where the electrons will be deflected by the high voltage source and in the way they will collide with oxygen atoms that are also receiving laser energy of a wavelength between 120 and 1800nm. The result is that the oxygen will become highly ionized by collision and this will liberate even more electrons this as will be trapped in similar way in the electric field zone, will than be used as energy source as for taking it out of there to leave the oxygen highly ionized.

Previously Meyer use to use the freed electrons to ionize the hydrogen negatively (electron entrapment) but in the injector version he only injected water.

When you say you have a voltage, you must think first of one thing, in relation to what!

So If he used the water cause of its dielectric and resistance and one set of electrodes as one side of the capacitor than the electrode and some water will get the charge you want given a respect to the geometric configuration. In the sense that you have two relative capacitances as you have 3 capacitors or even only two if is the case.

So if you charge the water with positive voltage than discharge thru an arc into a heating element you will kind of consume some of the electrons, if you continue this operation the water will get a very high voltage charge divided into the bath every water molecule.

Again If you prefer to add also or a negative field into the water you can also consume electrons by the same action.

Yet Differently, you could instead of creating a positive charge on the water molecules, create a negative charge. This can be done applying negative voltage, here the circuit must be connected to the ground thru a diode so the charge can get in but not get out during pulse off of the transformer.

I think the covalent bound will be weakened with both ways cause in one way you are increasing the negative charge of the oxygen causing repulsion to the covalent electron, and other wise you are increasing the positive charge of the hydrogen atom so it attract the covalent electron up to the point that it annulate the dipole, or the force that bound the molecules together.

In that patent they show what is the bound force in Nt. I need to study more about it to be able to precisely talk about it, but generally is this.

The thing is to cause an imbalance in the bath (all water molecules) so you can cancel the covalent bound.

(same process of the recycling of atomic waste)

As here we have a dipole we don't really care with voltage will be used positive or negative cause both will decrease the bound force as i described.

Stan partially explained this on the first movie in the NZ meeting. I just understood how to create and set up the charge on the water molecules and maintain the charge.

I'm also thinking if theres wont be an energy generating from capacitance change effect that will happen with a certain way of connecting things. I read a patent about this and for  me seem exactly what the guy was doing too.

I would really like to know your impressions guys...
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2011, 15:22:32 pm
Whats the difference between water and a piece of acrylic?

Why the acrylic take on a charge if you rub it and it don't lose it? It is because of the intrinsic proprieties of the dielectric. The dielectric took on a charge when you rubbed but as surrounding it there is an insulator (air) it wont conduct to the air so will retain its electric field.

The water is pretty much the same, It need to be in an isolated place so it can take on a charge and this voltage is in relation to the insulation! We couldn't wait that two conductors placed into the water could charge it, cause they both conduct as also water conduct so it would lose a charge if it was not unipolar charge. I mean unipolar cause the thing i'm proposing will charge the water with positive or negative polarity only.

Title: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2011, 19:44:32 pm
Seb,
That is a lot of verbiage. Have you done some experiments to prove your point?
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2011, 19:46:47 pm
The electrostatic filter, are another double vic coil but this with only dc to capture the ions on the water and keep the water deionized...

Doing this the water conducts even less cause there are less free ions or the like cause they keep trapped in the electric fields. I think that if reverse electric field is applied the ions would be released for cleaning purposes.

Ionizing positively the water (taking electrons out of it) is excellent cause than the conduction happens by the holes.

I think that my resonant schematic is pretty much what must be done but including all this story about the gates and electron extraction.

I really think think that know we should keep it simple stupid.

1° Construct a transformer in the following way:
primary 200 turns 24 awg
secondary 600 turns 28 awg
and one choke on the same transformer (fields aiding) 100 turns. 24awg
you need a diode connected between the secondary and the choke high voltage diode.
Use a flyback core.

This is the vic field transformer That will be used between the inner tube and the conductive sheet around the container.

The inner tubes are all connected together.

There will be a capacitance.  The positive side must be the inner tubes.
There will be a capacitance between the inner tube to the outer tube and from the inner tube to the outside of the container and from the outer tubes to the outside of the container. The outer tube is on the middle of the way.
On the outside of the container (witch must be very insulated) might be a sheet of copper or aluminum to form the capacitance relative to the inner tube and outer tube.
Between the leads that go to the outside of the container and the inner tube there will be a spark gap! It can have a lamp in series or a piece of something that can get really hot. This will consume the electrons, that means that when the transformer reach more high voltage again more electrons will be pulled out of the water. Other means to extract even more electrons from the bath are to be thought of considering all that i wrote since now.

All this must be without connection to any grounded place. No electrons must be replaced. The result is that the water get charged in the container.

Ok i think that the electron extraction circuit is ready.

Now another transformer like this is constructed and will drive the resonant tank formed by the water capacitor and a resonant coil. Just like i proposed 2 years ago. But now having the water charged and the field force the voltage necessary to spit apart the water molecule will become very very small, than now you just need to supply very low voltage at huge amperage, very easily provided with a resonant tank like i proposed 2 years ago.
The min voltage will be very small millivolts... So you can have high amperage and use no power. The resonant tank is preferably made of copper bars to maintain the inductance voltage small and current high so as the frequency cause will depend on the tube capacitance. Thats why he used all those tubes, to raise the capacitance. !!!

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2011, 20:01:53 pm
I think that meyer created the resonance on the water to avoid this losses on the rectifiers, he wanted it to generate just by colliding the ions highly energetically charged. So a duty cycle to the pll is provided as on the schematics there is the indication and make trains of pulses.

The all circuit will become positively charged.. Could be dangerous.

To do this he probably counted that the inductor would keep on charging while dc was happening and would discharge on the off pulse so the reversal voltage turns the molecules and they become gas.

So when he say the resonant frequency depends on the cavity and the coil he is right .

Good luck to anyone trying this

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 23, 2011, 21:15:49 pm
Well done is better than well said.   --Benjamin Franklin
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 01:13:55 am
Well done is better than well said.   --Benjamin Franklin

Amen to that!!!

Itzon
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 05:33:44 am
Five seconds.

I made a variable coil very nice today and finished the iron powder toroidal core vic ...

The time will tell.

I think that everything i'm talking about is interesting and makes a lot of sense so i will keep talking.

You got to realize that the Electrical Polarization Process as intended for Polarizing the water as a hole!!!

Electrical isolated ground x Electron extraction x Electrical Polarization

I repeat than water have a propriety that any dielectric have, it can retain a charge, witch is not a charge induced by a voltage separation but a charge due to net lack of concentration of free electrons...

So the electron extraction circuit intend to charge the water and extract electrons from the bath as to give a net charge to the water.

This is very normal, simple basic school theory.

The thing is that this charge affect the covalent bound of the water molecule. As the dielectric got a charge, it will have its atoms electrical exited energized, so the oxygen become more negative and the hydrogen become more positive. Becoming more negative the oxygen start to repel the covalent bound electron and as hydrogen become more positive its attraction to the electron increase thus by the way bellow mentioned you can weaken the covalent bound of the water molecule.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 05:38:52 am
As you create a spark gap you consume electrons already so if you sequentially charge the water and discharge it thru a spark gap maybe into a lamp you will kind of consume the electrons allowing the water to acquire an ever increasing charge. And this charge will interact with the atomic forces in the water molecule!
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 15:38:28 pm
Just in case you aren't aware,the electron extraction isn't needed to get high voltage across the water.The extraction process is something that can be done after the gasses have been made.It isn't needed to make the gasses.If you can't get high voltage across the water and producing gasses,you CAN'T extract the electrons,because the electrons are removed from the water as a byproduct of the water splitting process.You need to get step one done first,than we can go onto step two.
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 20:24:45 pm

Meyer talked about two different things. One is the electrical polarization process where he extract electrons from the water bath as for weakening the covalent bounding of the water by giving to it a Net positive charge. And other thing was to extract electrons from the ambient air while ionizing negatively the hydrogen atoms for getting enormous amounts of energy-...

Thus the electrical polarization process means the following, Charge the water positively therefore extracting electrons out of it. For this the electron extraction circuit is useful. Because you can charge water to 100kv if your bath container support this voltage but as long as you leave it at 100kv it will keep there and thus the amount of electrons that came out of water are limited. So stan provided a way to sequentially charge the water and discharge "consuming" the electrons so they could not come back to the water so leaving it net positively charged. Electrical Polarization Process.

Forgot to say a known propriety of dielectrics is that they can retain a charge, this don't mean the charge between two electrodes.

And as the water have a conductivity it becomes part of the electrode, an electrode with high resistance thats where the electrons come from.

I guess that if we charge the water this way we will increase its resistance thus with the complement circuit attached to the electrodes you can do apply high voltage low amps to the water and split a huge amount of water...
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 20:34:58 pm

When you have a capacitor and you want to charge it what you do?

You need to perform work by applying a voltage that will make the electrons from one electrode to go to the other electrode!

This create the electric field between the electrodes.

So when meyer talk about the bath is one thing and when meyer say between the voltage zones is another.

The thing i repeat, Is that water is part of the electrode if the dielectric is the container so is where the electrons will come from.

As meyer explained in the NZ first video when he say how he switch off the covalent bounding.

Hope you understand.

I think that fast freddy understood this and that also why his gas could support high pressure without exploding. Meyer also said that as you make this process the gases are safer than normal in the transporting as there is no electron build up or sparks.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 21:35:15 pm
The Electrical Polarization Process is just a fancy name for the process of using voltage to pull apart the water molecule.It has nothing to do with extracting electrons from the water.When the water molecule is pulled apart,the oxygen molecule and the electron are pulled toward the positve plate,but when the pulse stops,the electron will link back up with the hydrogen molecule.That's how Stan describes this process in section one of the tech brief page 1-7.
The ionization process as in the Hydrogen Fracturing Process is what your referring to.That is where electrons are extracted.
Stans does not extract electrons to get the Electrical Polarization Process to work.
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 21:50:54 pm

Dynodon, Take a look at the 1° video of the NewZealand house meeting... You pay attention when arrives at 28min30sec   "Electrically Intensified"

Take a look at his drawings, and keep in your mind the question "why isolated ground"?
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 22:04:23 pm

All you said is also correct except that the process of using voltage to pull apart the molecule include the need for an isolated ground and thus suggest automatically that when he mention water bath he includes all the water molecules, And Polarization mean imbalance of electrons. If stan called it electrical polarization process is because is exactly what it do. It do has to do with extracting electrons from the water bath you read that many times in the patents...

Fabio
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 22:08:09 pm
In the isolated water bath, the water molecule takes on charge, and the charge increases. The object of the process is to switch off the co-valent bonding of the water molecule and interrupt the sub-atomic force, i.e. the electrical force or electromagnetic force, that binds the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to form a molecule so that the hydrogen and oxygen separate.
[/size]Because an electron will only occupy a certain electron shell (the shells are well known) the voltage applied to the capacitor affects the electrical forces inherent in the co-valent bond. As a result of the charge applied by the plates, the applied force becomes greater than the force of the co-valent bonds between the atom of the water molecule; and the water molecule becomes elongated. When this happens, the time share ratio of the electrons between the atoms and the electron shells is modified.
[/size]In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath; electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process. There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are re-allocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated.
[/size]In the process, the electrical resonance may be reached at all levels of voltage potential. The overall circuit is characterized as a "resonant charging choke" circuit which is an inductor in series with a capacitor that produces a resonant circuit. [SAMS Modern Dictionary of Electronics, Rudolff Garff, .COPYRGT. 1984, Howard W. Sams & Co. (Indianapolis, Ind.), page 859.]Such a resonant charging choke is on each side of the capacitor. In the circuit, the diode acts as a switch that allows the magnetic field produced in the inductor to collapse, thereby doubling the pulse frequency and preventing the capacitor from discharging. In this manner a continuous voltage is produced across the capacitor plates in the water bath; and the capacitor does not discharge. The water molecules are thus subjected to a continuously charged field until the breakdown of the co-valent bond occurs.
[/size]As noted initially, the capacitance depends on the dielectric properties of the water and the size and separation of the conductive elements forming the water capacitor.
[/size]EXAMPLE I
[/size]In an example of the circuit of FIG. 1 (in which other circuit element specifications are provided above), two concentric cylinders 4 inches long formed the water capacitor of the fuel cell in the volume of water. The outside cylinder was 0.75 inch in outside diameter; the inner cylinder was 0.5 inch in outside diameter. Spacing from the outside of the inner cylinder to the inner surface of the outside cylinder was 0.0625 inch. Reasonance in the circuit was achieved at a 26 volt applied pulse to the primary coil of the torroid at 0KH.sub.z, and the water molecules disassociated into elemental hydrogen and oxygen and the gas released from the fuel cell comprised a mixture of hydrogen, oxygen from the water molecule, and gases formerly dissolved in the water such as the atmospheric gases or oxygen, nitrogen, and argon.
[/size]In achieving resonance in any circuit, as the pulse frequency is adjusted, the flow of amps is minimized and voltage is maximized to a peak. Calculation of the resonance frequency of an overall circuit is determined by known means; different cavities have a different frequencY of resonance dependent on parameters of the water dielectric, plate size, configuration and distance, circuit inductors, and the like. Control of the production of fuel gas is determined by variation of the period of time between a train of pulses, pulse amplitude and capacitor plate size and configuration, with corresponding value adjustments to other circuit components.
[/size]The wiper arm on the second inductor tunes the circuit and accommodates to contaminants in water so that the charge is always applied to the capacitor. The voltage applied determines the rate of breakdown of the molecule into its atomic components. As water in the cell is consumed, it is replaced by any appropriate means or control system.
[/size]Variations of the process and apparatus may be evident to those skilled in the art.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 22:20:37 pm
my question might not be entirely relevant for this particular thread, in watching various meyer videos and texts in the last few days comes a question:

As meyer appears to be shifting the oxygen to its 4th state to acquire the use of a higher energy, then is it possible to manufacture an air gas processor (and eec) to fit within the air intake of a standard vehicle to increase the power level - which could theoretically help with lowering fuel consumption by requiring less fuel for the same energy used.....?
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 22:33:06 pm
the references you gave are from his early patent,but it still doesn't say that he was removing electrons from the water to get it to seperate.Electrons are set free from the seperation of the water molecule.The electrons your saying are extracted, are the two electrons that hold the hydrogen molecule to the oxygen.In order to get those electrons you first have to seperate the water molecule to get to those electrons.So if your extarcting electrons,they are there because you seperated the water molecule.Not the other way around.Where do you think those electrons are coming from,if their not coming from the water molecule?Are there just free electrons floating in the water bath?If your isolated ground is there and your not pulling any in,than where do they come from?
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 22:51:39 pm

You agree with me that water conducts even if it is very pure. This means that there are free electrons there. Yet water is a dielectric and as a dielectric it can take on a charge. This is the charge stan is talking about. Stan charge the bath and discharge thru an arc maybe Sequentially to be able to leave on the water a very high positive charge. The electrode it self will miss electrons and therefore a field area is formed.

When the charge in the water is greater than the electrical forces the water will split apart by it self.

The electrons that flow because of electrolysis are not related. Well actually they are but is not about them that i'm talking about...

You must think about water like an acrylic rod that you can rub and it get a charge.

I think that stan took advantage of the prof. Van de Graf findings about the fact that no charge exist inside a conductor, thus if you apply the charge inside the conductor you can theoretically keep adding charge indefinitely. This is what i'm talking about when i say the thing related to the capacitance inside the capacitance.. .

So basically, yes there are electrons in the water bath so you can charge the water by applying a single wire with high voltage up to a certain degree as described earlier. There are also electrons in the electrodes and being able to extract some of those electrons would be good too. With the vic you can create max possible voltage possible the basic requisite for the electron extraction, so doing this sequentially you can create a very high charge on the water.

Wfchobby

Certainly!
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 23:45:51 pm
There are not free electrons in water, it is the ions in the water that carry the current...  From the Wiki...

Quote
Electrolysis is the passage of a direct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current) electric current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current) through an ionic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion) substance that is either molten or dissolved in a suitable solvent, resulting in chemical reactions at the electrodes and separation of materials.
The main components required to achieve electrolysis are :

• An electrolyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte) : a substance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance) containing free ions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion) which are the carriers of electric current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current) in the electrolyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte). If the ions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion) are not mobile, as in a solid salt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt) then electrolysis cannot occur.
• A direct current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_current) (DC) supply : provides the energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy) necessary to create or discharge the ions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion) in the electrolyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte). Electric current is carried by electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron) in the external circuit.
• Two electrodes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrode) : an electrical conductor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductor) which provides the physical interface between the electrical circuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_circuit) providing the energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy) and the electrolyte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolyte)
• Electrodes of metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal), graphite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite) and semiconductor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor) material are widely used. Choice of suitable electrode depends on chemical reactivity between the electrode and electrolyte and the cost of manufacture.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 24, 2011, 23:54:44 pm

When a charge is applied to a capacitor, the electrical charge of the capacitor equals the applied voltage charge; in a water capacitor, the dielectric property of water resists the flow of amps in the circuit, and the water molecule itself, because it has polarity fields formed by the relationship of hydrogen and oxygen in the covalent bond, and an intrinsic dielectric property, becomes part of the electrical circuit, analogous to a "microcapacitor" within the capacitor defined by the plates.
[/size]
[/size]In the isolated water bath, the water molecule takes on charge, and the charge increases. The object of the process is to switch off the co-valent bonding of the water molecule and interrupt the sub-atomic force, i.e. the electrical force or electromagnetic force, that binds the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to form a molecule so that the hydrogen and oxygen separate.
[/size]
[/size]By being so subjected to electrical pulses in the circuit of FIG. 1, water confined in the volume that includes the capacitor plates takes on an electrical charge that is increased by a step charging phenomenon occurring in the water capacitor. Voltage continually increases (to about 1000 volts and more) and the water molecule starts to elongate.
[/size]
[/size]In the process, electrons are extracted from the water bath; electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]Is he or isn't he talking about the charge on the water inside the volume?
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 00:01:53 am
Micro capacitors Charged!!!
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 00:12:13 am

All this make me be very certain that the variable inductor or resistor is to control the voltage field on the negative electrode. As if you apply a negative electric field in the negative electrode you will repel electrons coming from the current so it restrict the amps by repelling the electrons!!!

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 00:40:31 am
I don't know where it is you get you ideas from,but there not from Stan.Most of your post are so far off from what Stan is trying to say.You need to re-read all of his work and try to get a better understang of what he is saying,and stop reading something else into it.You are making this whole thing way to complicated.Everything you are trying to say,you would probably never be able to prove.You need to spend more time experimenting than typing.

Everything I have learned while working on this project has come from experimenting.The more I test,the more it comes out just as Stan states.It's that simple.I am getting down to the last of my studies on this cell.I have a little more to do on my new circuit before I can get back to testing my last few things.I have figured out what Stan claims to have done.If I can't get it to work after this,than It probably will never work.If Stan put everything he knew into his writings,than I know how he did it.If I can't get it to work as he says it does,than it either doesn't work or he left some part out.And as far as I can tell,it's all in there.You just need to put all the pieces together,and I'm down to the last few pieces.
As for this topic,I am through trying to correct your miss thoughts,and will leave that up to someone else.
Remember  K.I.S.S. !!!!!!
Don
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 00:49:04 am

I'm finishing the prototype to prove what i'm saying it will only have one pair of tubes inside that acrylic container with aluminum paper around it, it now have a connection that i soldered on a copper foil strip.

Very soon i will be able to be certain of what i'm saying just need to focus a bit.

I'm only saying what he wrote in the patents, water bath ... I think that anyone tried this this way before.

Thats why i'm saying that maybe fast freddy did it.

If the thing work i will show in a video.

Thanks Don for effort correcting me, my hope is to help enlightening your ideas. Please don't stop. Ask your self all the possibilities.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 06:57:10 am
I would like to answer all your questions.. but if there aren't much... Guys i would really like to hear from you all your impressions!
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 10:58:08 am
This is why his EPG worked. He created a too ingenious way to ionize the gases by using their dielectric proprieties. Is so clear now.

What keep puzzling me is how the electrons get consumed. I'm thinking of some possibility, like an electron emission by heating element having around it a copper tube grounded. Or if they will get already out during the hot arc. What worry me is the word consume.

I really guess that the electron deflection and entrapment plays the major role here. He in my imagination accelerated than this freed electrons (emission) to collide with oxygen in the air to free up even more electrons to than consume them by maybe stoping them in the coil while it is charged, letting the field to collapse and connect to the ground to discharge excess electrons.. -hum I don't really know, only experimenting i will be able to determine this.

Message to the Guests:
If you don't login you can't see the pictures!

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 16:38:05 pm
Well the amp restriction is about to add a negative field in the positive electrode, cause being it negatively charged it will repel the electrons so they will not flow thru the water so the charge can be applied aways to the water. This is very clearly described in the patent http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/20_Voltage_Control_Circuit/index.html (http://www.doctorkoontz.com/Scalar_Physics/Stan_Meyer/Patents/20_Voltage_Control_Circuit/index.html)

However must be a floating ground relation...

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 21:47:23 pm
Hi Fabio,

I understand what you try to do and what you are saying. I do appriciate this out of the box thinking of you.
Dynodon is right in his advise to try to keep it simple.
However, all simple things are tried and tested.
Don, what is your latest test? Would you like to share that?

My 2 cents on this:
I know of charging watercells. I know people done it. Even when the powersupply was off, the charge was there.
Or the tubes where charged or the water. Not sure on that detail.

I also know that  Stan has a third wire on the tubecell sign in some drawings. Some suggested that was going into the waterbath.

If you charge water, then its not electrons that are passsing thru the charge, but ions, like Bubz stated.
Electrons could be set free in that water when the watermolecule is separated.
However, electrons are NEVER consumed. The can travel, but cannot be consumed. Please keep that in mind.

Stan also said that his proces is the opposite of the electrolysis proces.
In my opinion that means pulling charge out of the water, instead of adding charges.
Or in other words. moving electrons out of the waterbath...
Like you use a voltagefield, like a magnet does, on one electrode and one on the other electrode.
Pulling....

Well, there stops my theory, because i do not know how to make the water instable in a way that the bonds are broken and electrons are free moving towards the electrodes.
Possible because 1 coil and 1 electrode can have a voltage potential and the other electrode with coil as well?
It might be not needed to have a voltage potential across the electrodes?
Just 2 voltage fields outside the tubes and not crossover it? Like magnets?

Feel free to drill down my 2 cents here..... ;)

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 22:06:00 pm
Yes! Steve exactly that!

Stan talkes about taking electrons out of the water bath.

If you have a piece of acrylic and rub in your hair it takes on an electric charge don't it takes? And it don't discharge because around it there is only air witch is an insulator.

Is the same thing with the water but as it is liquid we cannot rub it, so we need to use the voltage to do it.

You agree with me that the tubes inside the water have a capacitance in relation to each other but they also have a capacitance in reference to the outside of the container. So if you add a conductor around the container the water become the electrode and part of the capacitance. But happens that you can charge the water in this way cause water will lose its electrons as it is part of the electrode.

I think that this electrostatic charge on the electrode is the responsible for the accumulation of the ions on the electrodes. I mean that dirt on the electrodes.

So he charges the water and discharge sequentially in order to give to the water an ever increasing charge.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 25, 2011, 23:09:21 pm
I did some tests today, found the following,.

The capacitance between the tubes inside and the container outside is around 300pf as i have only a small pair Measured. The capacitance between tubes should be around 1,8nf (calculated).

If i charge the electrodes in relation to the container up to 40kv i have 12 micro-coulombs of charge inside the water.

So if can consume this electrons the next time the water will have even more charge, Positive.

In my test i could charge the bath to 120v but i think is that my transformer have to many turns on the primary for the voltage i'm using. Wish a variac to work from the wall.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 00:20:58 am
Voltage alone will not break the covalent bonds unless the levels reach Mega Volts. If you re-review the New Zealand video there is a part where he talks about the oxygen molecule and how it's electronegativity can overcome the water molecule and help break the bonds. This is where the EEC comes into play, but, it is used with the ambient air gas processor and not the gasses released by a bulk water cell. In fact, a bulk water cell is much to dangerous and inefficient to consider once you realize that it only takes about a drop of water and some ionized air to push a piston down with the explosive power the combination can produce. Remember, less mass will result in a higher thermal yield during combustion. Putting the demo cells in this same category is erroneous.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 01:18:48 am
Now after watching the New Zealand video again, I'm not so sure of my thoughts on the subject nor do I agree with a lot of what he states. I have no doubt what he purports is workable, it's just his explanations of certain parts seem to be way off or misrepresented.

He claims the water molecule will elongate. I would like to devise a test device to see this with a drop of water somehow to see this. Any Ideas?
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 02:02:50 am
I just did a new try, and got more than 1000 volts across the container. Across the plates there is a permanent charge of 450mv if you short the plates the voltage goes to zero but recharge again within a few seconds.

Bubz

WHen the water get charged the water atoms get electrically intensified this mean that the hydrogen atom become more positive and the oxygen become more negative, this break the bound in the following way, as the hydrogen become more positive it now attract the electron of the covalent bounding to it self orbit and at the same time the oxygen by being negatively intensified it repel the covalent electron thats why meyer say that the least voltage you apply the molecules will elongate and the gases will be liberated.

I think that i will have to work on my circuit because when i start to try with the spark gap the circuit stop oscillating. Any ideas?

I think that i'm very close to complete the quest.

The thing Bubz is that the water molecules in the isolated bath takes on an electrical charge (intrinsic proprieties of dielectrics) in reference to the outside of the container so you can have a capacitance there. Now if you charge the water and than discharge in a  way that the electrons are prevented to come back into the water bath, it means that electrons were extracted from the water bath, this makes the water to get positively charged step by step. Electrically intensified.

I'm using only stan words with background knowledge interpretation.

If you read every single word that i wrote in this thread and read the patent that i suggested you will understand what i'm talking about. Even if there they where using other similar principle you will notice the talk about the covalent force in newtons and the calculations for it... and so on.

Dear friends i think is only about charging the water up to the maximum limit possible.

I think that up to 600kv is reasonable.

Than just shoot the pulses in the water and magic happens.

I think.

Think about the significance of the word isolated ground and isolated water bath and how you could have 40kv across a pair of tubes inside water and why his cell was constructed in acrylic and so many other things.........

Than consider
Electrical polarization process  (the act of polarizing the water molecule, giving to it a positive charge)
Electrical extraction process   (method for obtaining the polarization of the water molecule to accomplish the electrical polarization process) switch of the covalent bound.

My question is how can anyone have thought about this! But is very clear, you need to think of water like if it was a piece of plastic a dielectric and all its proprieties witch in its case is to retain a charge. Microcapacitors. Electrically intensified.

When a dielectric break down because of high voltage it happens because there are no more holes or electrons missing to link up the bands of conductions thus this means that on one side the atoms become very negatively intensified and on the other side the same.

As you see stan took this from the physics books about capacitors. I read some in the library.

So basically you want a net charge inside your water bath. And  all connections to transformers and everything on the circuit must be insulated from ground or it would never work.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 07:18:52 am
There are two paths here that the readers can take.

One is to say this is not what stan said and thus is not right.

And the other is to say, Stan described many things and anyone succeeded in replicating, might he explained correct? Did he wanted everyone to understand? Do i want to explain to you correctly?

I think that stan would never explain his process clearly. He only explains the theory and very partially.

While he say dielectric proprieties I say It takes on an electrical charge.

He say water bath molecules i say water bath molecules

He say electron ejection, i say electron extraction

He say stationary voltage field, I ask my self why???

Here i will make a point maybe the electron extraction is not necessary but maybe just charging the bath to a high potential is enough so not needing the EEC ... or not
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 08:40:29 am
I just remembered where i heard about charging the water. Joe cell

I know all those bull shits about orgone bla bla is not related but maybe the thing is that the idea was misunderstood.

The objective is to charge the water to a very high voltage and than apply a isolated dc supply between the cylinders.

The thing is this, to extract electrons from the isolated water bath, charge the water to very high voltages this should solve.

Stan used a plastic water tank. Everything was very insulated with delrin.

Lets than follow the KISS method!

I say maybe thing is so simple that meyer invented all those things just to keep everyone out of the track. But in the patents he said that electrons are ejected from the water bath. For me this mean give to the water bath a positive charge witch reminds me electrical polarization process. For me this connects.

His vic is very useful for obtaining extremely high voltages.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 09:06:55 am
I was thinking a little better and I think that the thing is to apply the isolated pulses in the contrary polarity so the electrons flow will be minimized. I tell you why. As the positive stationary field electrode will become the negative it will than attract the electrons so restricting the current. I suggest the use of also a negative stationary field this would than repel the electrons so restricting the current even further. We just need to add inside the inner tube a dielectric and another conductor isolated so it creates a field in relation to the outer tube.

So there are fields from outside the container to the inner tube and from inside of the inner tube and the outside tube.

But keeping it simple stupid, apply the moderated isolated voltage (trains of pulses like he described) negative to the inner tube and positive to the outer tube, and charging the inner tube with positive charge in relation to the outside of the container (very high voltage).

I think that would be worth adding a spark gap between the inner tube and the outside of the container collector to make such that it discharges when reach the max voltage. I think this will help to give an even greater positive charge to the water.

I think that 100kv is a good start.

So everything must be thought to be insulated for 100kv. And i think that this is the only problem that must be think of.

So basically even if the isolated pulsing supply is of relatively low voltage it must be insulated between primary and secondary for 100kv.

And so on.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 10:30:19 am
Other configuration just crossed mu thoughts, being the outer tube positive in relation to the outside container and the inner tube positive in relation to the outer tube.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 16:31:07 pm
I wonder if the 100Kv+ of a stun gun could be useful.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 17:23:29 pm
I think that any 100kv source is ok it only need to supply for charging the water quick, than a spark gap sequentially discharge the water when desired voltage is reached.

here i have 1000 volts instantaneously and thus 0 amp flow. i just need higher voltage source. i need to re assembly some coils on the flyback core i have to achieve at least 50kv than i will add some choke to see if it become volt less, the only problem i see is the insulation.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 21:27:18 pm
There are essentially four basic kinds of polarization mechanisms:
Interface polarization.
Surfaces, grain boundaries, interphase boundaries (including the surface of precipitates) may be charged, i.e. they contain dipoles which may become oriented to some degree in an external field and thus contribute to the polarization of the material.
Electronic polarization,
also called atom or atomic polarization. An electrical field will always displace the center of charge of the electrons with respect to the nucleus and thus induce a dipole moment as discussed before. Theparadigmatic materials for the simple case of atoms with a spherical symmetry are the noble gases in all aggregate forms.
Ionic polarization.
In this case a (solid) material must have some ionic character. It then automatically has internal dipoles, but these built-in dipoles exactly cancel each other and are unable to rotate. The external field then induces net dipoles by slightly displacing the ions from their rest position. The paradigmatic materials are all simple ionic crystals like NaCl.
Orientation polarization.
Here the (usually liquid or gaseous) material must have natural dipoles which can rotate freely. In thermal equilibrium, the dipoles will be randomly oriented and thus carry no net polarization. The external field aligns these dipoles to some extent and thus induces a polarization of the material. The paradigmatic material is water, i.e. H2O in its liquid form.
Some or all of these mechanisms may act simultaneously. Atomic polarization, e.g., is always present in any material and thus becomes superimposed on whatever other mechanism there might be.
Real materials thus can be very complicated in their dielectric behavior. In particular, non-spherical atoms
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 26, 2011, 21:32:35 pm
I think the objective is electronic polarization. And probably also the orientation polarization too but less important to the process.

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/backbone/r3_2_1.html (http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/elmat_en/kap_3/backbone/r3_2_1.html)
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 16:10:28 pm

Just found one definition to what i'm taking about.

Even when an object's net charge is zero, charge can be distributed non-uniformly in the object (e.g., due to an external electromagnetic field, or bound polar molecules). In such cases the object is said to be polarized. The charge due to polarization is known as bound charge, while charge on an object produced by electrons gained or lost from outside the object is called free charge.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge)
Free charge!

Is the classical example of Electrification by friction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect)
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Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 16:16:15 pm
So i'm taking about increase the free charge of the water by taking out electrons from the water bath. Hope is clear enough.

The object is the water bath as a whole so you must mind that you do have a capacitance between the inside and the outside. So if you will take out electrons from the water must be in relation to this capacitance.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 16:24:39 pm
I believe that there will be a difference between using a glass insulator or a resin. And thus i think that both should be tested.

I say this because glass behave different from resin when rubbed. For example glass would take a positive charge while resin a negative.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 16:41:14 pm
Static build-up in flowing flammable and ignitable materials
Discharge of static electricity can create severe hazards in those industries dealing with flammable substances, where a small electrical spark may ignite explosive mixtures.[9]
The flowing movement of finely powdered substances or low conductivity fluids in pipes or through mechanical agitation can build up static electricity.[10] Dust clouds of finely powdered substances can become combustible or explosive. When there is a static discharge in a dust or vapor cloud, explosions have occurred. Among the major industrial incidents that have occurred are: a grain silo in southwest France, a paint plant in Thailand, a factory making fiberglass moldings in Canada, a storage tank explosion in Glenpool, Oklahoma in 2003, and a portable tank filling operation and a tank farm in Des Moines, Iowa andValley Center, Kansas in 2007.[11][12][13]
The ability of a fluid to retain an electrostatic charge depends on its electrical conductivity. When low conductivity fluids flow through pipelines or are mechanically agitated, contact-induced charge separation called flow electrification occurs.[14] Fluids that have low electrical conductivity (below 50 picosiemens per meter), are called accumulators. Fluids having conductivities above 50 pS/m are called non-accumulators. In non-accumulators, charges recombine as fast as they are separated and hence electrostatic charge accumulation is not significant. In the petrochemical industry, 50 pS/m is the recommended minimum value of electrical conductivity for adequate removal of charge from a fluid.
Kerosines may have conductivity ranging from less than 1 picosiemens per meter to 20 pS/m. For comparison, deionized water has a conductivity of about 10,000,000 pS/m or 10 µS/m.
Transformer oil is part of the electrical insulation system of large power transformers and other electrical apparatus. Re-filling of large apparatus requires precautions against electrostatic charging of the fluid, which may damage sensitive transformer insulation.
An important concept for insulating fluids is the static relaxation time. This is similar to the time constant  (tau) within an RC circuit. For insulating materials, it is the ratio of the static dielectric (The relative permittivity of a material for a frequency of zero is known as its static relative permittivity or as its dielectric constant)
[/color][/font]constant divided by the electrical conductivity of the material. For hydrocarbon fluids, this is sometimes approximated by dividing the number 18 by the electrical conductivity of the fluid. Thus a fluid that has an electrical conductivity of 1 pS/m has an estimated relaxation time of about 18 seconds. The excess charge in a fluid dissipates almost completely after four to five times the relaxation time, or 90 seconds for the fluid in the above example.Charge generation increases at higher fluid velocities and larger pipe diameters, becoming quite significant in pipes 8 inches (200 mm) or larger. Static charge generation in these systems is best controlled by limiting fluid velocity. The British standard *  PD CLC/TR 50404:2003 (formerly * -5958-Part 2) Code of Practice for Control of Undesirable Static Electricity prescribes pipe flow velocity limits. Because water content has a large impact on the fluids dielectric constant, the recommended velocity for hydrocarbon fluids containing water should be limited to 1 meter per second.
Bonding and earthing are the usual ways charge buildup can be prevented. For fluids with electrical conductivity below 10 pS/m, bonding and earthing are not adequate for charge dissipation, and anti-static additives may be required.I read this yesterday in my friend house, I think is very related.

Fueling operations
The flowing movement of flammable liquids like gasoline inside a pipe can build up static electricity. Non-polar liquids such as paraffin, gasoline, toluene, xylene, diesel, kerosene and light crude oils exhibit significant ability for charge accumulation and charge retention during high velocity flow. Static electricity can discharge into a fuel vapor.[16] When the electrostatic discharge energy is high enough, it can ignite a fuel vapor and air mixture. Different fuels have different flammable limits and require different levels of electrostatic discharge energy to ignite.
Electrostatic discharge while fueling with gasoline is a present danger at gas stations. Fires have also been started at airports while refueling aircraft with kerosene. New grounding technologies, the use of conducting materials, and the addition of anti-static additives help to prevent or safely dissipate the build up of static electricity.
The flowing movement of gases in pipes alone creates little, if any, static electricity.[17] It is envisaged that a charge generation mechanism only occurs when solid particles or liquid droplets are carried in the gas stream.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 17:33:33 pm
I think that only with an electrostatic voltmeter we can measure accurately the water charge, and the tubes charge. As they only measure the voltage from the force of the field therefore without flow of charges.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 27, 2011, 20:13:21 pm
I'm trying to think about the relation to Van de Graf charging.

I mean, as there are two capacitors one inside the other, something tell me that when we charge the inner capacitor the outer will get charged as well. I'm not pretty sure...

A Van the Graf generator accumulate Voltage by inputing charge in the middle of the ball, as it is conductive, the law of physics say that no charge will remain inside a conductor. So every time you go there to put a charge on it it will accept as there will never be a charge inside of it.

The thing is that i don't understand what charge can be placed there, negative? well i'm trying to find out what really happens, since 5 years i think is related and now that i found this relation between the outer capacitance, i think it more than ever.

any ideas?

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 02:24:57 am

Well, I found in a brazilian website for physics experiments the edison effect, they just took a regular lamp (filament) and added a top made of aluminum paper, than they could light a neon bulb connecting it to the aluminum and  to the base of the lamp. Only half of the neon lighted up so they say it happens like a rectification.

They also say that any heating element will do this.

Well got to say this is very exiting, i'm thinking a way to get around with those electrons and thought of the following, to have a heating element inside a copper tube and to add another isolated supply between the filament and the tube (positive to the tube) this will deflect the electrons possibly ionizing the air passing there thus maybe eliminating those electrons.

Other thing that crossed my mind is that if you just operate the cell thru this amp consuming device, being everything isolated ground there should occur electron extraction too and therefore also the water polarization.

The thing is that you need to light the filament so it can emit electrons away like stan said. And a way to get them consumed or tracked at least so we can know where they are going should be found.

I have here some SS wire and some ceramics formers for high temp resistors wire wound. I will check how much current should pass in order to light it up. I also think that coating it with low work function material would help. But the idea to add the field makes of it a thermo emission field effect aided.

I read today in some books that if you apply a field to the emission you increase the emission. This is called field emission. Light can also be used to help.

I repeat that maybe the amp restriction is also acomplish by the crossed fields on the electrons, like the negative electrode to be the positive stationary field in relation to outside the bath so the positive field don't allow the electrons to flow cause it attracts them.

Other thing i thought of is that the electron extraction thereto can be used being in series with the cell or to discharge the outside electrode.

I think that also a spark gap is a good way to send away electrons. (not very good idea having hydrogen around)

I want to explain a little better why the water would get positive charges if the electron extraction (lamp) is used in series (and of course if everything is isolated from ground).

A battery to have potential this happens cause of electrons go from the negative side to complete the way thru the circuit and get killed on the positive side. If you make the electrons go away from the circuit, the positive of the battery will not get destroyed. Actually i guess it will but will be because of the electrons that exited the bath, thus leaving the water a net positive charge. Witch interacts with the sub atomic forces within the water molecule and thereby switch off the covalent bounding.

Problems are, How to consume the electrons. (maybe solved)

How to know the exact filament to make it shine bright.

I thought of doing the following experiment.

To take a heating filament that lights up bright when 20 amps pass thru it. Than connect to the isolated bath direct from the battery. Than measure the voltage of the water in relation to the outside of the container.

I think that if all this is true probably few crude experiments could prove the point.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 02:39:24 am
would also say that maybe the amp inhibiting coil is the one that goes connected  to the outside of the container. And i would say that it has a closed loop induction core in order to compensate and thus complete the resonant frequency.

I mean, In the Vic Sync pulse.

Both charging chokes go to the tubes and the amp inhibiting go to outside the container. (in the tech paper stan say SS wire for it) Not sure if really needed. Except if he wanted it to also become its amp consuming device. As per the temperature ss support and as by skin effect it would have the probability of emiting electrons. We shall not let anything pass unobserved.

I mean, the inductance of the secondary plus that of the chokes 56 and 62 than all this multiplied by the capacitance of the tubes, must equal to the inductance of half of the secondary + the amp inhibiting+ the choke 62 all this multiplied by the relative capacitance to the outside of the container.

In my analysis this form a resonant tank perfectly in equilibrium. And agree with my theory that the outside must be the 0v or relative ground.

This is pretty similar to the picture of dan danfor but not exactly. Is like if the water charge only in one direction and when the current should change direction it does but going to the outside capacitor. All this affect the water.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 09:18:26 am
Sebos
Can you take look at this vid :
Dr. Stiffler SEC Exciter Hydrogen production via diode (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17xjF9cHDNc#)
thank
andy
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 14:30:44 pm
I have saw this before. He simply transmit the electricity and the diode receive like a antenna but as it rectifies you see the bubbles coming out of the water. I don't really see anything special. What you think about the video? I'm missing something?

This night kept thinking to the exhaustion about how the vic sync could be in resonance.

I guess i found why.

Being the drawing i made in page two of this thread correct.

I split it into two half wave resonance.

I made some calculations using 5 khz as the base. And i thought of this!

The side having the water capacitor being the water capacitor 1,6nf, the coils and choke must totalize 600mh
This comprise The amp inhibiting coil one piece of the secondary of the transformer and the upper choke.

The other side being the outside capacitance 300pf  the coils must totalize 3,3H
Being the Amp inhibiting coil, the bigger piece of secondary and the lower choke.

Basically i think the secondary and the bottom choke must be bigger if all this is correct.

This way everything will resonate.

differently

If the amp inhibiting coil go instead to the outside of the container. Witch i think is very possible.

Than the figure would be different. By obvious reasons. The thing is that half the circuit inductance multiplied by the respective capacitance must equal the other half inductance multiplied by the other respective capacitance. As the capacitances are different the coils must agree to make everything resonate at the same frequency.

I'm thinking about the possibility of some of the chokes or even the amp inhibiting coil making part of the same transformer.

I will call the Amp Inhibiting coil from now AIC

The variable resonant charging choke   VRCC

The resonant charging choke RCC

I say this because whenever you have a choke after a diode in the same core, the voltage become kind of limitless.

What could also be is that the transformer is one core, the RCC chokes another core and the AIC another core, or at least this in the same core of the transformer.

Well, I don't know. I believe we should try all the possibilities exhaustively.

However my best guess is that the AIC go to the tube and not outside. And that possibly the outer and inner tube could be reversed polarity maybe being the inside 0v. Again many things to be tested. Everything must be draw analyzed and take notes.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 15:18:29 pm
I think meyer got the way of calculating the coils and capacitors by complex impedance to match the perfect resonance as the coils have resistance there is a deviation of the resonant frequency.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 15:27:18 pm
Hi sebos
in this vid gas coming off only from one electrode . This electrode have negative polarity. There is'nt
other electrode. It's like negative charging of water. (or the one electrode electrolysis )
andy
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 15:57:35 pm
Andy, what is happening in my opinion is that on the other electrode the oxygen is oxidizing the anode thus becoming a solid oxide and thats in my opinion why it don't come out as gas. And also this oxidazability of the anode maybe is the reason it is working too.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 17:25:25 pm
Donald i was reading old threads about electron extraction, and found that i should explain the time share rate of the covalent eletcron.

Oxygen being one of the most electronegative atoms in the periodic table like electrons very much. When it accept the electrons of the hydrogen during the combustion it takes the hydrogen electrons and robs them, making them to be most of the time in the oxygen orbit.

This makes the time share tend to the oxygen for the most part of the time.

Altering the time share rate relates to increase the hydrogen atom positive charge and or increase the oxygen negative charge so the hydrogen attracts more the covalent electrons and the oxygen repels the covalent electrons. This in turn obviously change the covalent force, weakening it by affecting the time share rate.

I learned this last year when i was frequenting the atomic and molecular physics lessons.

Stan say that when he electrically intensify the water atoms its charges become intensified, the hydrogen become more positive and oxygen more negative.

I guess giving the water a positive charge ejecting electrons would interfere in this. But i think that voltage also must be applied in there between the plates too.
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 17:43:46 pm
thats Why when he talk about preventing the water molecule from reform initially he ionized the hydrogen negatively (so it repel the oxygen), and later only ionized the oxygen and water positively (cause probably is easier and thus it repel the hydrogen fracturing it stealing its electrons).
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 28, 2011, 21:44:17 pm
I made the test and some gas production using deionized water. I think that i'm on the track. I used one transformer outputting ac going to the outside of the container and the outer tube, and a the VIC connected to the inner tube and outside of the container.

Between the tubes there was 23 volts DC and 20 AC and some bubbles started to appear. This was the first test i did and was the better one. I tried to change the configuration in all manners i thought.

The primary of the ac transformer (flyback) is connected in parallel with the other primary. I'm not sure what is the frequency. Going into nor the power consumption, but is very low cause the mosfet does not even get warm.

I will tray adding a diode on the ac transformer to see what happens.

My problems are, meters and oscilloscope missing, and the circuit is not working very well.

obs when the ac primary is not connected to the source the flyback vibrates intensely.

The voltage between the water and outside now is only 17v dc...

Forgot to say
I'm not using the trains of pulses and other thing is that this deionized water i can input 400volts between the tubes  and no bubbles come out.

Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 29, 2011, 00:01:36 am
Well done!
Cannot wait to hear more on this.

Steve
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 30, 2011, 01:51:07 am
Sebosfato,

Here's a simple way to test your theory.  Take a 110v to 24 v step down transformer and run the primary and secondary as chokes.  Mix and match the input output wires to reach the highest system voltage as in the 8XA.

Now, throw together a one gallon wide mouth glass leyden jar with foil inside and out and filled with salt water.  Connect this in parallel with your cell.  You will be in the 2-4 kv range real quick with few amps from your variac.

I'd like some confirmation of this effect I get with this arrangment from anyone else interested in trying it.

just playing

kb
Title: Re: Voltage does Work!!! And Here is why!!
Post by: Login to see usernames on January 31, 2011, 20:03:59 pm

Hello guys,

I cound't test in the last day cause i'm very sick, as soon as i get better i will come back to work.

I've read a lot recently and would like to recommend to you http://www.google.com/patents (http://www.google.com/patents)    PATENT NUMBER 2,948,861  CRYSTAL BAbb

This patent talk about Quantum MechanicAL Resonance

VEry cool this patent was cited by Lawrence Nelson patent

Hope you enjoy