Author Topic: Embrittlement and wfc design  (Read 5217 times)

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Embrittlement and wfc design
« on: January 15, 2011, 04:35:16 am »
Hi All,
a question to be pondered. Amongst the many topics, and several forums, on electrolysis or water disassociation methods of manufacturing a fuel, there appears to be very little about engine part embrittlement, what causes it, how to prevent it and engine life versus the cost of making a fuel to use.

Is it catalyst based brute force electrolysis that is the cause?
Is it voltage based water disassociation that is the cause?
Did Puharich and or Meyer report the effects of their fuels on engine life?
What are your thoughts on this?

When considering an answer, the reason I ask is simply:
 - For all of the various wfc methods being experimented on, would those reliably provide a fuel supply for an engine life intended for , say, 150,000 to 500000km without creating issue of lower engine life versus the cost of engine repair or replacement for the percieved fuel savings.??

and, How are engines going, or are, protected from adverse events such as embrittlement?

kind regards

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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 11:35:45 am »
I think nobody got sofar in testing.
Something to think about:
Meyer ionized the ambient air and mixed that with the hho.
Its pretty much to believe that the real gas in the cylinder made a change to ammonia.
Engines run on ammonia and many studys are done on that.
I havent read any negative on the mechanical site of that.
However, we must keep an open mind on possible modifications needed.
But that isnt a real issue, ill guess.


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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2011, 16:35:23 pm »
wfchobby,embrittlement is something that is associated with hydrogen only.Burning hydrogen doesn't directly cause metal embrittlement.That is mostly a myth.Welders have to be careful when welding around wet metal.When welding, the water get electolysized and entraped in the weld,and that is what leads to embrittlement.
If you want to learn more about it,I suggest you look into Roy McAlister,he has a book titled "The Solar Hydrogen Civilization".He even shows you how to run an engine on hydrogen only.He's been doing it since the 60's.Look for some of his videos on youtube.

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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2011, 18:13:32 pm »
hydrogen embrittlement  happens to to the "high-strength" or tough metals, due to the cooling and heating of an engine they tend to be made out of "low-strength" alloys, more designed to be readily available, now it your running titanium heads or valves you may have an issue... Generally the alloys used in your engine are resilient to embrittlement, it is one of the factors considered in the selection process when they choose the materials to use.
on a side note there is a % of hydrogen that is released from fumes (ethanol especially) that goes into your engine anyway, this cannot be helped.
If you do happen to run into this issue you would only need a rebuild and not a new engine, you would be talking piston heads, sleeves, rings and possibly valves.
your real problem will be in your spark plugs life span, as some of them use high percentage of nickel in their construction, and nickel is vulnerable to enbrittlement.

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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 00:42:24 am »
this happens because hydrogen is small, it is the smallest element, and it is smaller than the molecular gaps in metal, think of helium leaking through a rubber balloon after a few days, it's the same thing, it is worse for hydrogen under pressure, the hydrogen atoms get forced into the gaps in the metal atomic structure, and then they reduce the flexibility

it's like making steel out of iron, you heat up iron, and pound and hammer carbon into the iron, and it makes it stronger, but stronger is more brittle, and when you stick hydrogen in there, it is so tiny that it fills the small gaps, and therefore eliminates small movements and small flexes in the metal, so it becomes brittle

shouldn't be such a big deal for us running cars though, and in any case, well worth it to do so anyway

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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 14:55:36 pm »
Okay, I am going to make two statements here;

One on voltage dissociation;

The thing is that moste people doesent understand what Meyer did whit he's WFC (and take notice here that WFC stands for Water Fuel Capacitor) it is actualy a hidden codex whit in the technologie and in order to break it up and understand what this means you need to understand the principle behind Meyers construction and said method in use.
Now before i answer that i just whant the forum to know that the project i am working on now is nascent hdyrogen (or molar hydrogen) and use a simple formula;

H2 + e -> 2H + e -> ENERGY -> H2 (simplyfied). It is an advanced step in hydrogen technology where the H2 gas is turned into a "plasma" pre charged hydrogen gas and upon entering "a" combustion chamber the hydrogen molecule is splitt into H ions, both as cations and anion. A plasma phase starts and fuse the H ions together releasing more energy then to splitt the molecule. This generates heat and photons which interacts whit the the formation of H2 molecules. Much of this result becomes hot hydrogen gas that expands and thus creates a phusing force on "a" piston or similar. This is done in several steps, but mainly in a new conversion injector that have two purposes - to create nascent hydrogen and to introduce a electromagnetic event, ionisation and heat exhange to get said reluts. The end result is what you see in the formula - H2 -> 2H -> H2.
But enough about that, now for the answer to you question;

There is two technics that Meyer used - first is WFC and the last is he's Water Injector okey, now these two are different, both in how they work and how they are constructed, but they do share a common thing and that is called An Electromagnetic Event or as Meyer calls it By Means of Voltage Breakdown. - he did actually use and also invented many names in parts to confuse the reader and in doing so made moste people unable to understand the strange event in he's tubes. But there is nothing strange going on and he is not breaking any law in physics, there is no magic taking place, it can all be explained whit proper science.

Voltage can be defined as an electric potential (charge) at a point in space. Voltage can be of a positive charge, defined as a lack of electrons
Or a negative charge, defined as an excess of electrons. Voltage is the driving force that causes the movement of electrons (current flow) In Physics we know that like charges repel, and opposite charges attract .

The opposite charges attract each other to hold atoms and molecules together. In the water molecule the charge that holds the atoms together is known as a covalent bond. Looking at the water molecule:
If you look at the water molecule, you'll quickly find the way that it is arranged the atoms have seperate charges, The Hydrogen atoms have a positive charge and the oxygen atoms carries a negative charge.
Now we know that voltage is an electrical attraction force, which can cause current (electrons) to flow by moving them from one atom to another.

We know that there are two charges, Positive and negative. A positive charge being defined as a lack of electrons. A negative charge being defined as an excess of electrons. We also know in physics everything must reach a stable state, so when a difference in potential exists current flows until there is no difference in potential (all atoms reach a stable state). So, if we place the water molecule between two plates charged with opposite voltages, we know that the electrons spinning around the atom will all be attracted toward the positive plate, and the proton will be attracted toward the negative plate, the higher the charges become the further the atom will be pulled apart, until eventually the molecule splits into it's component atoms.

Now, to go a little deeper. If we have a wire, and each side of that wire has an equal, but opposite charge, current will begin to flow. The moving electrons (current flow) will fill in voids (areas with missing electrons) at one side of the circuit. This will cause many previously positive charges to combine with electrons (negative charges) to reach a stable state, cancelling out there charge, meaning that voltage potential will decrease.

In common electrolysis the water has an electrolyte added to make the water more conductive (current flows easier). This causes an excessive current flow, which decreases the voltage potential (as described above). Electrolysis has been proven to be most efficient at less than 2 volts.

"A cell operating at the theoretical voltage of 1.23 volts is 100 percent efficient. The amount of voltage above 1.23 required to operate the cell is
wasted. The objective, then, is to make a cell that will operate
as close to this voltage as possible."

So with electrolysis the voltage with the highest efficiency is only 1.23 Volts. As we know voltage is an electrical attraction force, 1.23 Volts is not much.

If we were able to increase the voltage, and restrict current flow we could break the current model of 1.23 volts peak potential by hundreds or even thousands of percent more! That is exactly what Stan did. To make his method the most efficient he used what is known as a resonant charging choke circuit. The circuit is a LC circuit which can be operated at resonance for maximum efficiency. In an LC circuit resonance is when the capacitive reactance and the inductive reactance cancel each other out, meaning that the circuit can operate at it's maximum amplitude, in this case amplitude is referring to voltage while amp flow is restricted.

"A word of caution is in order with series LC resonant circuits: because of the high currents which may be present in a series LC circuit at resonance, it is possible to produce dangerously high voltage drops across the capacitor and the inductor"

To increase efficiency even more Stan added inductors to the circuit, the inductors build up a magnetic field when current is flowing through them, and the field collapses when current stops causing an extra pulse of the same polarity when a blocking diode is used.

In the case of splitting water, it only makes sense that the longer the voltage was applied to the water the more water would be split. So when Stan added the inductors to the circuit he did them for that exact reason. A secondary (high voltage transformer/inductor) and the water capacitor had a large off time, but by adding inductors he can do the following:

In the resonant charging choke circuit, the circuit contains 3 inductors, one which is the secondary of the transformer: The two chokes do the following: When a magnetic field is created (by the transformer primary) and collapses it creates a pulse through the secondary winding which goes through the chokes and creates a magnetic field around them, as the magnetic field collapses around the chokes another pulse is created. Because of the way the circuit works it prevents the capacitor from discharging. As Stan States in patent # 4,936,961: talking about the Resonant Charging Choke circuit:
"In this manner a continuous voltage is produced across the capacitor plates…”

So there you see. By restricting current the voltage potential (attraction force) can be brought much higher. To increase the efficiency even more the circuit was operated at resonance, and inductors were added to prevent the capacitor from discharging, giving it a constant voltage.
This is where Stan hit some difficult challenges in his work, and this is where most forums and individuals are stuck. Resonance.
You have to realize that with water as the dielectric resonance will not stay the same for any length of time. In fact it changes constantly. Changing temperature, water splitting in the cell creating bubbles between the plates, Water being split and leaving behind it’s contaminants in the cell and a few other factors cause the problem of keeping resonance for any amount of time.

So Stan went on to develop the PLL circuit, a circuit which automatically detects resonance and continuously scans signals as resonance changes to keep the circuit as close to resonance as possible.
A PLL circuit is commonly known in electronics as a Phase lock Loop, it is made for matching frequencies and doing many more things.

In the WFC the resistance of the water increases or reduces effciency. We know in common electrolysis current is used, meaning that the water is made more conductive (smaller resistance), this makes it so lectrloysis cannot get any better than around 2 volts potential. Stan Meyer taught us that voltage splits the water molecule. We should look at the WFC not only as a capacitor, but as a resistor, with the resistance being determined by the conductivity of the water used.
The higher the conductivity (lower resistance) the higher current will flow, reducing efficiency by causing the voltage drop to be smaller across the resistor (capacitor plates)

The lower the conductivity (higher resistance) the lower the current will be, resulting in a larger vltage drop across the resistor (capacitor plates)

The electrical resistance is equal to the voltage drop across the resistor divided by the current that is flowing through the resistor.

the above quote basically means that, the higher the resistance the higher the voltage drop across the resistor will be.

In one of Stan Meyers presentations he states the following:

1 - to produce the hydrogen economically from water
2 - adjust the rate of combustion
3 - being able to burn the hydrogen gas co-equal to fossil fuels.
4 - being able to transport it without spark ignition.

In order to salve the puzzle as a scientist you have to ask the right question.

How do we switch off the covalent bond of the water molecule and do it economically?

We need a way to switch off the bonds and not process the water molecule in any way. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So when the unlike atoms of the hydrogen atoms covalently link up to the oxygen. Normally the oxygen atom has 8 protons and 8 electrons. But when the oxygen atom accepts the negatively charged electron from the hydrogen atom there is an electrical imbalance. The oxygen atom still has 8 protons but has 10 electrons, it shares 2 electrons with the hydrogen. The first orbit can have 2 electrons, the next orbit can have up to 8. The oxygen is now in a balanced state while having 10 electrons. This gives the hydrogen atom a positive electrical charge. this is how a microwave oven can heat up water, it swings the molecule. The microwave oven creates a positive and a negative potential and oscillates the molecule. So the molecule has opposite electrical charge Q and Q prime.

There is no electromagnetic field between the oxygen and the hydrogen atom. All we have to do is reverse the electrolysis process. We don't pump amps into the water. All that is needed is an electrically polarized field. It is known in Physics that Voltage does absolutely does work!

P = U * I

Under coulombs law, and Newton's second law it should attract the opposite charge. All one needs to do is setup opposite electrical charges and the positive field will be attracting the negative charge, the negative field is repelling the negative charge. The positive field is repelling the positive charge and the positive field is attracting the negative charge.

And M.Faraday did not discover this, the man behind the electrolyser.

All he had to do was restrict the amps. We overcome the electrical attraction force of the water molecule and cause it to expand, we change the time share rate of the electron. So now we are switching off the bonds of ordinary natural water without processing any other materials and doing it cheaply. On the covalent switch off we are deflecting the negatively charged electrons to the positive voltage field. Here we are translating electrical stress to the particles inside the nucleus. The nucleus is spinning like a gyroscopic, the stress causes it to slow down. When a electrically charged particle moves trough an electrostatic field its by product is electrical energy. The strength of the electrical field is directly related to the speed of the electron. If we slow down the speed we can weaken the electromagnetic fields of the atoms.

There are 4 forces that affect the atom.

1 - electrical force
2 - electromagnetic force
3 - electrostatic force
4 - weak and strong nuclear force.

Voltage affects the other 3. If we continuate the electrical field of the atom we continuate all the other fields of the atom. We can do this without consuming a great deal of power. Using a voltage intensify circuit coil and a resonant cavity. Water being a dielectric liquid has 8 electrons in it's L orbit, it wont exchange more. It imposes the movement of electrons 17.54 times greater than air. We make a water capacitor and set it up in series between 2 resonant coils making a resonant charging choke. We set up a pulse and amplify for example 12 volt pulses up to 20 000 volt. As we pulse the coil we create a magnetic field in the coil which supposes the movement of the electron. Because of inductive capacitance of the coil we now allow voltage to be applied to the resonant cavity and restrict amperage flow by 90 degrees. We tune the pulse frequency into the dielectric frequency of water amperage flows go down to a minimum and Voltage will increase to infinity if the electrical components will allow it to occur. When we move a magnetic field though a coil of wire it dislodges the electron the furthest away. That electron has an electromagnetic field and we are producing electricity!

To restrict the amperage we need a voltage intensifying circuit. This is basically a special transformer having a primary and a secondary coil. The core is made out of stainless steel 403 fr, because of it's inductance capacitance it allows us to restrict the amps and operate in a dead short position. The higher the voltage the more hydrogen is produced.

Up to here we are using voltage and stainless steel. Stanley Meyer then progressed to add laser energy to take his discovery to a hydrogen fracturing technology. We raise the voltage to a stage where we pluck off the electrons. When we pluck the electrons off the oxygen atoms, we have negative charged particles floating around in the water. Here we go to a stage of mega hydrogen production. We cant go into atomic resonance by electricity alone.

Electrolysis is a self destructing reaction that lasts about 5 to 10 min. When we continue to increase the voltage we hit resonant action. We run hydrogen production for 5 seconds, we shut it off and we continue to produce hydrogen for another 94 seconds. We thus produce 19 times as much hydrogen gas at the output as on the input side of the system.

Stan states we have to maintain the industrial base because we don't have the means to replace it. We have to modify the system to be fit to be retrofitted onto existing technology. Hydrogen burns around 325 cm per second which is much to fast. Water is like a sponge it will absorb gasses. It will absorb 17-19% of ambient air. The bulk of which is made up out of non combustible gasses. This can be used to maintain a burn rate of 75 cm per second thus allow us to adjust the burn rate of the hydrogen gas. The gas can now be modulated to match other combustible gasses or liquids all the way down to burning paper. The gas can even be adjusted to replace natural gas and use it for cooking.

Without using a spark back device it wont be a safe reaction. However, when the gases come of the reaction the non combustible gasses prevent the hydrogen atoms from coming together like in a atomic hydrogen torch.

And it allows for a totally cool reaction.

We need to prevent melting the engine. To lower the temperature from 5000 degrees down to 200 or 300 degrees we take the non combustible exhaust gases from the flame and recycle them back to the flame and back to the generator.

Take notice: This is the event in he's WFC and basicly how it all works. Now, Meyer developed the Air Gas Processor and the Water injector, these two made the WFC obsolite, but you need to understand how everythingl operates in order to move on. Also, there is another thing that is important - the capacitor, here it is important to make a true capacitor meaning that the voltage potential should ONLY remane inside the capacitor and and now where els. You can isolate the capacitor by using Delrin or Plasterdip. If you do not do this you will have a voltage lekage, you can see this by the formation of bubles on the outer tube (anode) and that is abad sign. Meyer shows he's Delrin Capacitor in; Memo WFC 422 DA Figure 3-25: Resonant Cavity be sure to look at that.

Water have a natural voltage breakdown point near 20.000V (Water Treshold) this is the next step, whit that knowledge he invented the injector which splitts the molecule by voltage breakdown as a factor of stress. You can look at the Tailer Cone to understand that part better.

And for the VIC, that is basicly N.Tesla technoligy - know Tesla and you know Meyers VIC.

The Air Gas Processor or GP for short ionizes the incoming ambient air.

The other thing is Ammonia or NH3 - the fact that Meyer did this was discovered back in late 2009, I was part of that discovery together with Tutanka over at Energetic forum. What was so important with this is that ammonia is THE hydrogen fuel for obvious reasons - and yes, some changes is required to run on 100% Hydrogen and/or ammonia - we can say that hydrogen represented in % (5-10) of the fuel mix acts as a combustion catalyst since ammonia have a higher burn temperature. Ammonia is Stans "secret" in the text "Close to that of natural gas".
When dealing with ammonia, we are also dealing with a liquid fuel and not gas since ammonia is liquid @ room temperature @ moderate pressure aka. 8,88-10 bar of pressure and most fuel system use this pressure today. Everything is better with a liquid fuel rather then in a gas state. I hope this helps you to further investigate what you need and what system you want.

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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 14:59:00 pm »
The ammonia was discovered after I posted the voltage breakdown article, so some things have been adjusted - on a side note.

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Re: Embrittlement and wfc design
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2011, 17:45:43 pm »

"A word of caution is in order with series LC resonant circuits: because of the high currents which may be present in a series LC circuit at resonance, it is possible to produce dangerously high voltage drops across the capacitor and the inductor"

Please explain how or where there can be high voltage at resonance in a series LC circuit.

Maybe I can't comprehend it because of my preconceived notion that at resonance, a series LC circuit is
at it's lowest impedance.   

Lowest impedance=highest amperage=low voltage.