Ionizationx: a clean environment is a human right!

Electrolysis => Study's, Reports and Cases => Study's, Reports, Cases and Inventors => All About Water => Topic started by: Steve on September 12, 2008, 16:54:17 pm

Title: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 12, 2008, 16:54:17 pm

New topic and i think it can be a good one!

Here is a picture of water!
And the website where it came from:

At any given moment, each oxygen atom is typically surrounded by four hydrogens--two close ones from its own molecule, and two further away on nearby molecules.  At the same time, within each molecule, the oxygen has a bit more negative charge, and the hydrogens are a bit more positive--a charge separation called a dipole.

If you apply an electric field to water, you expect the molecules to align their dipoles along the field lines, on average, like so many compass needles aligning in Earth's magnetic field. The degree to which they align with and augment the electric field is called polarizability. But in the hydrogen-bonded network of water, the dipoles are already partially aligned with each other, even before you apply the field. Clusters of nearby molecules act as a single, larger dipole, enhancing the field more than they would on their own. This so-called collective effect is one reason for water's large polarizability. But researchers have wondered how this effect compares with a second one: Each oxygen pulls the hydrogens further from the oxygen in neighboring molecules, which increases the charge separation within each molecule and therefore the strength of each molecule's individual dipole.
The uncertainty about which effect is bigger arises because the electrons are spread out among the molecules. Calculations and experiments show how the charge varies from place to place, but there is no easy way to assign each bit of charge to a particular molecule. Only in the last decade have physicists perfected mathematical methods to make definitive assignments of charges.

Manu Sharma of the University of California at Davis and his colleagues have now applied the new techniques to water and definitively determined the contributions of the two effects to water's large polarizability. The team first simulated a few dozen water molecules using only basic laws of physics. To assess the effect of individual molecular dipoles, they computed the dipole for each molecule and found values that were typically 60% bigger than for water vapor, where the molecules don't interact. To measure the collective effect, they monitored how often the alignments of nearby molecules changed together, and found that collective motions more than doubled the polarization. Both effects contributed to the large polarizability they calculated--a value that agrees well with experiments.

Accounting for individual dipoles also showed that almost all of the collective enhancement comes from neighboring molecules, rather than those further away. Since more distant molecules are unimportant, the strong polarizability should persist even when water is confined in very tight spaces, for example in proteins and other biological molecules. Biophysicists have assumed as much, when modeling the atomic-scale functioning of biomolecules, but these results provide solid evidence.

David Vanderbilt of Rutgers University in New Jersey helped establish the charge accounting scheme. He says that calculating the right polarizability--and the closely related dielectric constant--and disentangling the various contributions is "a kind of milestone" for first-principles theory. "The dielectric constant of liquid water is a complicated thing."

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 12, 2008, 17:23:08 pm
More facts:

The hydrogen bonds that give water its strength also are responsible for many unique and important properties of water. Most substances contract when they solidify, but water expands, and, thus, becomes lighter. Ice is less dense than liquid water because more hydrogen bonds are intact, and water molecules aligned by hydrogen bonding occupy more space. Thus, when water freezes it becomes so strong it can break pipes and rocks! If water behaved like most substances, lakes would freeze from the bottom, and life would be tough for aquatic creatures. Another unusual property of water is that much more energy is needed to heat it than is needed to warm most things. It is hard to heat water because molecules must vibrate more vigorously to become warmer, but hydrogen bonds restrict the movement of water molecules.

More odd stuff:
Current theories led us to believe that the detergent compound SDS acted to produce an electric field around itself by simply orienting neighbouring water molecules without significantly changing the normal properties of water. Thus, it was thought that the molecules aligned themselves with the applied electric field just as a compass needle does in the magnetic field of the Earth. This phenomenon is known as water polarization and is well known by scientists, having important implications for biological and chemical processes related with electrical interactions in water: interaction between membranes, the formation of films and foams, and colloidal stability, among others.

However, the results obtained by this research show that, under certain circumstances, water prefers to behave in a completely abnormal way and to organize itself. In prime films formed by water and SDS (such as those found in foam and bubbles), water molecules are immobilized and cluster together forming special structures, about three molecules thick, around the SDS molecules. Behaving in this way, water manages to completely cancel out the electric field created by the detergent and even to invert it. Hence, to the contrary of what was thought up to now, the action of these detergent chemical compounds is determined mainly by how far water molecules “tolerate” or oppose their presence.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 14, 2008, 10:25:36 am
Its getting more and more interesting, is it... ;)
So strange how water works..

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 00:16:49 am
New info:

The hydrogen bond in water is part (about 90%) electrostatic and part (about 10%) covalent .... ;)

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 22:17:27 pm
Hi H2O,

90% Static and 10% covalent.
What does that mean? What is covalent and what is static?  What kind of conductor or technic can we make/create to get a static force.
It doesnt say anything about the amount of energy of the force. Lets find that out as well.
With no money in the pocket, we can do what we can and that is research on the NET.

We are getting closer to the truth... :D

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 22:43:41 pm
Ok, answers:

Static Electricity is defined as an electrical charge caused by an imbalance of electrons on the surface of a material. This imbalance causes an electric field that can be measured and that can influence other objects at a distance.

When two objects in each other's vicinity have different electrical charges, an electrostatic field exists between them. An electrostatic field also forms around any single object that is electrically charged with respect to its environment. An object is negatively charged (-) if it has an excess of electrons relative to itssurroundings. An object is positively charged (+) if it is deficient in electrons with respect to its surroundings.

Electrostatic fields bear some similarity to magneticfields. Objects attract if their charges are of opposite polarity (+/-);objects repel if their charges are of the same polarity (+/+ or -/-). The lines of electrostatic flux in the vicinity of a pair of oppositely charged objects are similar to lines of magneticflux between and around a pair of opposite magnetic poles. Inother ways, electrostatic and magnetic fields differ. Electrostatic fields areblocked by metallic objects, while magnetic fields can pass through most (but not all) metals. Electrostatic fields arise from a potential difference or voltage gradient, and can exist when charge carriers, such as electrons, are stationary (hence the "static"in "electrostatic"). Magnetic fields arise from the movementof charge carriers, that is, from the flow of current.

When charge carriers are accelerated (as opposed to movingat constant velocity), a fluctuating magnetic field is produced. This gives rise to a fluctuating electric field, which in turn produces another varying magnetic field. The result is a "leapfrog" effect, in which both fields canpropagate over vast distances through space. Such a synergistic field is known as an electromagnetic field, and is the phenomenon that makes wireless communications, broadcasting, and control systems possible.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 22:47:12 pm
So, what is electrostatic charge?

In physics, charge, also known as electric charge, electrical charge, or electrostatic charge and symbolized q, is a characteristic of a unit of matter that expresses the extent to which it has more or fewer electrons than protons. In atoms, the electron carries a negative elementary or unit charge; the proton carries a positive charge. The two types of charge are equal and opposite.
In an atom of matter, an electrical charge occurs whenever the number of protons in the nucleus differs from the number of electrons surrounding that nucleus. If there are more electrons than protons, the atom has a negative charge. If there are fewer electrons than protons, the atom has a positive charge. The amount of charge carried by an atom is always a multiple of the elementary charge, that is, the charge carried by a single electron or a single proton. A particle, atom, or object with negative charge is said to have negative electric polarity; a particle, atom, or object with positive charge is said to have positive electric polarity.

In an object comprised of many atoms, the net charge is equal to the arithmetic sum, taking polarity into account, of the charges of all the atoms taken together. In a massive sample, this can amount to a considerable quantity of elementary charges. The unit of electrical charge in the International System of Units is the coulomb (symbolized C), where 1 C is equal to approximately 6.24 x 1018 elementary charges. It is not unusual for real-world objects to hold charges of many coulombs.

An electric field, also called an electrical field or an electrostatic field, surrounds any object that has charge. The electric field strength at any given distance from an object is directly proportional to the amount of charge on the object. Near any object having a fixed electric charge, the electric field strength diminishes in proportion to the square of the distance from the object (that is, it obeys the inverse square law).

When two objects having electric charge are brought into each other's vicinity, an electrostatic force is manifested between them. (This force is not to be confused with electromotive force, also known as voltage.) If the electric charges are of the same polarity, the electrostatic force is repulsive. If the electric charges are of opposite polarity, the electrostatic force is attractive. In free space (a vacuum), if the charges on the two nearby objects in coulombs are q1 and q2 and the centers of the objects are separated by a distance r in meters, the net force F between the objects, in newtons, is given by the following formula:

F = (q1q2) / (4or2)

where o is the permittivity of free space, a physical constant, and  is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, a dimensionless mathematical constant. A positive net force is repulsive, and a negative net force is attractive. This relation is known as Coulomb's law

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 22:58:57 pm

Even though electrostatically induced forces seem to be rather weak, the electrostatic force between e.g an electron and a proton, that together make up a hydrogen atom, is about 40 orders of magnitude stronger than the gravitational force acting between them.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 23:02:59 pm

Rubbing two nonconductive objects generates a great amount of static electricity.

Usually insulators, e.g., substances that do not conduct electricity, are good at both generating, and holding, a surface charge. Some examples of these substances are rubber, plastic, glass, and pith.

Note that the presence of electric current does not detract from the electrostatic forces nor from the sparking, from the corona discharge, or other phenomena. Both phenomena can exist simultaneously in the same system.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 15, 2008, 23:08:10 pm

A similar charging mechanism can occur within low conductivity fluids flowing through pipelines - a process called flow electrification. Fluids which have low electrical conductivity (below 50 pico siemens/cm, where pico siemens/cm is a measure of electrical conductivity), are called accumulators. Fluids having conductivities above 50 pico siemens/cm are called non-accumulators. In non-accumulators, charges recombine as fast as they are separated and hence electrostatic charge generation is not significant. In the petrochemical industry, 50 pico siemens/cm is the recommended minimum value of electrical conductivity for adequate removal of charge from a fluid.

An important concept for insulating fluids is the static relaxation time. This is similar to the time constant (tau) within an RC circuit. For insulating materials, it is the ratio of the static dielectric constant divided by the electrical conductivity of the material. For hydrocarbon fluids, this is sometimes approximated by dividing the number 18 by the electrical conductivity of the fluid. Thus a fluid that has an electrical conductivity of 1 pico siemens /cm will have an estimated relaxation time of about 18 seconds. The excess charge within a fluid will be almost completely dissipated after 4 to 5 times the relaxation time, or 90 seconds for the fluid in the above example.

Charge generation increases at higher fluid velocities and larger pipe diameters, becoming quite significant in pipes 8 inches (200 mm) or larger. Static charge generation in these systems is best controlled by limiting fluid velocity. The British standard BS PD CLC/TR 50404:2003 (formerly BS-5958-Part 2) Code of Practice for Control of Undesirable Static Electricity prescribes velocity limits. Because of its large impact on dielectric constant, the recommended velocity for hydrocarbon fluids containing water  should be limited to 1 m/s.

So it seems that when we put water in an accelerator tube which is circulair, you can charge the water just by speed!

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 16, 2008, 18:05:47 pm
Very interesting stuff indeed.

Looking at stan's resonant cavity WFC picture I can see why it's made of delrin. As a plastic it is very good at holding electrostatic charges.

During HV expirements at resonance I was able to charge the water with a  strong electrostatic field, after removing the HV source I could feel a huge static charge on the plastic container the water was in, and after touching the water I was shocked as the charge grounded through me.

Electrostatic fields are something of great interest to me. They are a good sign of the progress in our work. We are getting close! Very Close!
Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 16, 2008, 20:07:42 pm

I still having trouble understanding what the 90 / 10%  is.
If you look at the watermolecule with 2 hydrogens attached to it in a convalent bond, then i count just 2 other hydrogens left for the static part. So were does the 90/10 fit in..?

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 17, 2008, 00:18:39 am

 Does this have anything to do with breaking that covalent Bond of water ???

I am also curious about efficiency on the new sound wave
water to hydrogen technology, versus electrolysis. Instantly
vaporizes water, or can also immediately convert water into
thermo explosive energy

  I just read this at another site. Anyone know anything about this sound wave technology ??  Could this be usable info ??
Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 17, 2008, 04:11:40 am

 I have no idea. I just read that on another site ??  No way to try to duplicate that stuff down here !!
Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 18, 2008, 16:26:27 pm
 This is probably way off topic, but, there is a guy at  THIS (  link, with an action shot of a lightning strike. It shows pretty vivid detail ???
Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2008, 11:58:28 am
More comments on water:

The H2O molecule is a neat little thing; it is comprised of two H atoms and one O atom. The little thing holding them together is the electron. The electron is the only bonding force, however try pulling three magnets apart, not very hard is it, now take a swimming pool and fill it with magnets and try pulling one of them out, it becomes a lot harder because the force is increased over the entire surface area, and they are all bonded together. That is water in its natural state. But what makes this situation interesting is that it is not a simple electromagnetic bond, it is an electrostatic bond called the covalent bond. Scuffing your feet loads you up with electro-static energy, and touching something conductive discharges that energy. That means that if the electrostatic charge on an electron can be discharged, it will cease to bond.


Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2008, 11:59:42 am

We need a circuit that is discharging over and over again a electrostatic charge.....

I know that TEFLON can be charged pretty well..

And a nice website:

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2008, 12:17:15 pm

Ion or electron beam bombardment can also create electrostatic charge fields, but the most
common and far reaching type of electrostatic charge build up is triboelectric charging. As the prefix
tribo- implies, this charging results from friction or contact between objects.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 20, 2008, 12:22:24 pm
Dielectric Constant (Relative Permittivity)

Insulator materials are commonly called dielectric materials because all insulators have a
dielectric constant. The dielectric constant determines the ability of the material to become electrically
polarized. There are three types of polarization possible in dielectric materials;
1) Electronic polarization occurs when electrons are displaced relative to the nucleus.
2) Ionic polarization occurs when cations and anions are displaced relative to each
3) Orientation occurs when permanent dipoles, such as H2O are aligned.

Only the low mass bodies of the electrons can polarize in response to very high frequency
electric fields. Ions and permanent dipoles move too slowly and can only be polarized by lower
frequency electric fields. The time needed for a specific polarization to occur is termed the relaxation
Materials with a high dielectric constant have a strong ability to become polarized. The
dielectric constant is equal to the permittivity of the material (?) divided by the permittivity of a pure
vacuum (?o). Permittivity is a proportionality constant that relates the displacement of a charge in
relation to an electric field. Dielectric materials, therefore, have a dielectric constant greater than unity
and are strong supporters of electrostatic fields.
Polarization of positive and negative charges presents an electrostatic potential energy that is
associated with opposite charges being held apart from each other. This is the material property that is
exploited in capacitors to create power supplies.

Dielectric Strength
While the dielectric constant determines a materials ability to hold an electrostatic field, a the
dielectric strength of a material is a measure of the material resistance to breakdown. Breakdown of a
dielectric occurs when electrons or holes break molecular bonds in the dielectric medium during and
ESD event creating micro-defects which can propagate through the medium. The units of dielectric
strength are Volts/material thickness which represents the Voltage required to breakdown a certain
thickness of the subject material.

Strong electric fields, such as ESD may free electrons from atoms and accelerate them to
energies high enough to free other electrons from atoms which creates an avalanche of electron
interactions. This is known as dielectric breakdown and the energy required to cause this breakdown is
the dielectric strength. In many instances, the medium between two surfaces in an ESD situation is air,
but in the case of semiconductor devices, the medium could be a thin insulating layer of the device.
Because the electrical field is defined as Voltage per distance, thin layers are particularly susceptible to
breakdown given a particular field strength. This is a major challenge in proceeding toward shrinking
semiconductor device dimensions.

My comment and thoughts: What if what we do by electrolysis is indead freeing electrons and that we indead see a small reaction / avalanche.....All avalanches will end at one place and time.  What if we start to consume those freed electrons? When there are no free floating electrons left, then there will be no covalent bonding / re combining .....

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 00:49:00 am
New research info:

when the pulse width is within the microsecond range,
the dielectric strength of water remained almost independent of the pulse width. When the pulse
width was decreased to the sub-microsecond range, the dielectric strength started to increase.


Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 00:56:17 am
its getting better:

For brief pulses (a few microseconds or less), pure water is an excellent dielectric. However, the water needs to be continually filtered, degassed, and deionized so that it has a resistivity of ~5-7 megohm-cm in order to work reliably as a dielectric in high energy pulsed power pulse systems. For short pulses, water combines high dielectric strength, high dielectric constant (~80), and is "self healing" in the event of an electrical breakdown. These properties allow pulsed power engineers to create compact, high-energy storage and transmission systems using water as the dielectric. For example, water is used as the dielectric in low impedance, high current, high voltage transmission lines that feed 20 million ampere pulses into the center of the huge "Z Machine" at Sandia Laboratory - the world's largest pulse generator - see: and

The main challenge is to keep the water sufficiently pure and keep gas bubbles from forming on the electrodes. Since water is the "universal solvent", it easily becomes contaminated by impurities (dust and ions leaching from the container that increase its conductivity). These impurities must be continually removed since their presence always degrades the water's performance as a high voltage dielectric.

For short pulses, J. C. Martin developed an empirical breakdown scaling relation for water and mineral oil under a uniform E-field over a range of voltages, pulse times, and electrode area based upon his work at Sandia. The relationship is as follows:

F = k*(t^(-1/3))*(A^(-1/10))

F = the peak breakdown field (in megavolts/cm)
t = duration of applied voltage (in microseconds)
A = area (in square cm)
k = 0.3 for water (positive streamers – the normal case)
k = 0.6 for water (a special case where field enhancement is purposely adjusted to cause streamers to form preferentially from the negative electrode instead of the positive electrode)

For example, solving for the positive streamer breakdown field (F) for 1 square cm electrodes in water, stressed by a 1 microsecond pulse in water, we get F = 300 kV/cm. If we used a 100 nsec pulse, this would be expected to increases to 646 kV/cm, and almost 1.4 million volts for a 10 nsec pulse. Breakdown behavior changes with longer (>10 microsecond) pulses, since ionic conduction may begin to alter the E-field distribution within the gap. Considerably more detail can be found in "High Power Switching" by Ihor M. Vitkovitsky, ISBN 0442290675 and “Introduction to High Power Pulse Technology” by S. T. Pai and Qi Zhang, ISBN 9810217145.

Breakdown within water begins as streamers that initiate from points of field enhancements (bubbles, small projections, or particles on the electrodes). As noted above, streamers will form and propagate more easily from the positive electrode in a uniform field. I am not aware of explicit data relating breakdown strength to water temperature. However, increasing the water’s temperature will reduce the water's density and increase ion mobility – these factors may tend to decrease the dielectric strength. Increasing the applied pressure will significantly increase the breakdown voltage, possibly because it makes initial bubble formation (which seems to be necessary for slow streamer formation) more difficult.
Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 11:00:08 am
The second link is already gone!

I hope you saved the web page.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 12:35:48 pm
I do not have that webpage.
Is it not somewere on their website?

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 24, 2008, 14:08:22 pm
I do not have that webpage.
Is it not somewere on their website?


Nope.  I don't know if they just done some website updating, or...

I looked all over their website.  I could have missed it.  There are some pdf  files but I didn't have enough time to look through all of them before I had to come to work.

Title: Re: What is WATER?
Post by: Login to see usernames on September 28, 2008, 09:46:48 am

More info found on the net. This came from Rufus.

Water has low energy (enthalpy),
water  vapour has higher energy,
hydrogen gas has a higher energy (similarly oxygen gas),
individual hydrogen atoms have a higher energy (similarly oxygen), 
ions have highest energy

Ions are the atoms with different electron counts.
So potential energy from the valence bonds are dependant on the state of ionization, not just the presence of.

At dissociation, we have monatomic hydrogen and oxygen. It is immediately afterwards that autorecombination begins, with the simpler compounds leading the fray.. diatomic hydrogen and oxygen. (H2, O2) It's a question of demand, and why it's easier to make triox and trihydrogen is a bother.

Ionization of the gases occures in de cell as a function of the process.  Further ionization is done in later stages - the gas gun, and the "electron filter" (forgot his cutsey name for it) The purpose of that later ionizing serves multiple points... a, preventing autorecombination . If you have for instance, a net - H1 ion, you have a single proton, and two electrons with no room for others at that point. the more you prevent e2 from going rouge, the longer we have H1 in a closed shop. The second function is to up the conductivity and kinetic potential for the burn.

When the ionized H and O atomic gas combusts, they are trying to get to the lowest possible energy state. As they combust the difference between the starting energy state and the lowest possible energy state is captured and utilized for practical purposes.