### Author Topic: Coils mass amps restriction and applying e fields  (Read 6178 times)

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##### Re: Coils mass amps restriction and applying e fields
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2019, 04:11:45 am »
the idea of ionising oxygen or whatever must be a part caused by ac and the rest caused by dc

i explain.... to get the oxygen atoms to liberate electrons and we be able to take them off we better collide the oxygen ions against the electrodes at increased speed... if we apply electric field to an electron it take a big acceleration but as it have a low mass the amount of energy is limited by the maximum speed it takes before colliding this is called the mean free path

a atom like oxygen has 34k times the mass of an electron so applying energy to it will make the atoms to accelerate gain energy and than collide expelling electrons

so one action is to generate ions extracting electrons

second is accelerate and collide ions (this is a kind of multipactor)

third is extract further electrons and prevent them to get back to the gas

the electrons are prevented to get back to gas because of the gas movement when the gas has the same polarity of the electrode it repels but as an ion move further from electrode is like having current flowing

that's why we need sequential dc higher and higher each stage but the interesting is that it will collide when the outer electrode become higher in potential assuming positive ions

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##### the mean free path
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2019, 15:15:55 pm »
Lets talk about math

if we have an electrode set with 1,5mm space it does not mean that it will take all this space to accelerate ions

ions will collide with other particles in the way so to know how much field a ion can receive before collide is needed to know the pressure of the chamber

at STP there is 2.7 × 10ˆ19 molecules per cm3 forming a 68nm mean free path

this mean that if we apply 1kv/mm =1MV/m of electric field the ions will only be accelerated thru a voltage difference of 68mv so it would have 68mili ev if it was a free electron but as it has a mass the energy may differ right?

so what is the maximum collision energy applying this field at STP for oxygen atom?

if we lower to a lower vacuum the MFP can be increased up to 1000 times down to 1 milibar...

i think to get it working first we need little bit more of voltage than bit of vacuum

first the diatomic molecules when get ionised strongly will double or more in volume since we will be breaking diatomic bonds in oxygen... so monoatomic will double the volume and more its going to get hot i guess..

stan explain electron entrapment as the free electrons forming negative ions mixed with the positive ions

but my understanding says that he may have used a manner to bring the electrons he was taking from oxygen and placing somewhere like the exhaust gas to bring away from the engine...

and or he ionizes the hydrogen gas negatively forming also monoatomic hydrogen making a lot of sense at this point

if we try to add electrons to the hydrogen atom it may not be able to accept it since a hydrogen atom has only 1 proton so it share the electron with the other hydrogen atoms very happy

if we add an electron it will form H2- ions at most i guess.

according to stan theory that there must be missing electrons for the decay to occur it don't appear to me that the excess electrons go to hydrogen, instead i think the same processing oxygen needs hydrogen may need it too so he may have got rid of the electrons by a ground mean or by electrification of the exhaust gas as this would allow for the balance of the voltage...

otherwise is like trying to take the water out of a boat with a hole with a small cup and yet throwing the water back into the boat

there is a limit of how much charge we can get out of an object and it will be related to the voltage it can hold... like a van de graff generator ... there is charge there but if you blow air thru it it will discharge

« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 16:40:43 pm by sebosfato »

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##### Re: Coils mass amps restriction and applying e fields
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2019, 15:23:37 pm »
Steve, how much HHO i would need to run this 2,5kw gen without load ? from your experience on running the bike?

i have lots of ss plates i could build a high output generator.. perhaps a pure hydrogen generator...
you need like 4 liters of hydrogen per minute. So, hho is then a bit more
What i remember with my tests with the serie plates cell, is that the engine ran better with less plates plus a higher voltage (unregulated dc)
then more plates with strait dc and a lower voltage.
The last should have been more electrical efficient. More liters hho per minute.
But the gas was less powerfull then the first smaller cell with higher voltage per cel and with unregulated DC.
Ill guess that that setup was brownsgas.....

nice steve, so to get 6 l/m of hho we should need?

for converting one moles of hydrogen from water  we need 55 amps this will give half mole of oxygen and should result around 35 liter per hour so half liter per minute

we would need than around 600 amps to flow;...

assuming series cells we put 20 cells in series and apply 60v at 30 amps should give that amount of gas... rounding a lot...

if each plate has like 15cm by 20cm there is 100ma per centimetre square

If you build the cell properly and if you can add a little waterpump for water circulation, you should be able to do it with less  power.
The pump removes the gasses from the electrodes...So more efficient. I used 1 from an aquarium.
Sand the electrode, that way you get more surface.
Some rubber gasgets.  Space at least 1.5mm. 2mm also works fine.

Ohhhh...last important point. The top holes should be aligned, but the bottum holes should be mirrord. Otherwise you leak to much current.

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##### Re: the mean free path
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2019, 15:36:42 pm »
Lets talk about math

if we have an electrode set with 1,5mm space it does not mean that it will take all this space to accelerate ions

ions will collide with other particles in the way so to know how much field a ion can receive before collide is needed to know the pressure of the chamber

at STP there is 2.7 × 10ˆ19 molecules per cm3 forming a 68nm mean free path

this mean that if we apply 1kv/mm =1MV/m of electric field the ions will only be accelerated thru a voltage difference of 68mv so it would have 68mili ev if it was a free electron but as it has a mass the energy may differ right?

so what is the maximum collision energy applying this field at STP for oxygen atom?

if we lower to a lower vacuum the MFP can be increased up to 1000 times down to 1 milibar...

i think to get it working first we need little bit more of voltage than bit of vacuum

first the diatomic molecules when get ionised strongly will double or more in volume since we will be breaking diatomic bonds in oxygen... so monoatomic will double the volume and more its going to get hot i guess..

stan explain electron entrapment as the free electrons forming negative ions mixed with the positive ions

but my understanding says that he may have used a manner to bring the electrons he was taking from oxygen and placing somewhere like the exhaust gas to bring away from the engine...

and or he ionizes the hydrogen gas negatively forming also monoatomic hydrogen making a lot of sense at this point

if we try to add electrons to the hydrogen atom it may not be able to accept it since a hydrogen atom has only 1 proton so it share the electron with the other hydrogen atoms very happy

if we add an electron it will form H2- ions at most i guess.

according to stan theory that there must be missing electrons for the decay to occur it don't appear to me that the excess electrons go to hydrogen, instead i think the same processing oxygen needs hydrogen may need it too so he may have got rid of the electrons by a ground mean or by electrification of the exhaust gas as this would allow for the balance of the voltage...

otherwise is like trying to take the water out of a boat with a hole with a small cup and yet throwing the water back into the boat

there is a limit of how much charge we can get out of an object and it will be related to the voltage it can hold... like a van de graff generator ... there is charge there but if you blow air thru it it will discharge

What if he used lighting in his cell.
Low voltage for basic electrolysis and high voltage for ionizing the gas...
Stephen and his father spoke about it. They seen the Stanley cell. They heard the discharges in the tubes....
Its like thunder and lightning.

Think about what Herman Anderson said about his system. 70kV spark on the anode. Kathode and anode are just 3 cm separated from each other.
What do you think will happen when you add a spark that big to a cell with hydrogen and oxygen gasses?
Exactly. The spark repeats itself IN the cell.
It will go strait thru it
I seen it
And i will repeat is soon again.
As long everything is under water, its fine.
Hydrogen is HIGHLY conductive as well as o2.

Just think about it. The Vic. Was the diode not 600V rated?
So, pulse 600V in there and you will see low voltage on the cell. Then the other coils discharge.
I tell you. The goal is to create lighting (sparks) in the waterbath between the electrode.
Thats what Stan draw. A resonating tube set. Wave guides...

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##### Re: Coils mass amps restriction and applying e fields
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2019, 16:59:34 pm »
the only time i seen sparks across water was when i got at very first start plate cells covered with mylar foil at a side it ruptured and i saw small sparks going

A spark generate waves certainly... and being the cell a resonating cavity it should keep this waves resonating into it however i believe its pretty much damped at wrong frequency.. so i  will do a under volt test to see if there is anything detected so im not sure if a spark would be the best way of oscillating it

a spark is a high resistance path of ionising particles... it forms a huge voltage drop unless we have free electrons and vacuum... i think an x ray tube could do something to it but i don't have how to get one for now...  maybe a vacuum tube...

i will do some tests... first i need to get the prototypes up and running..

im planing to make this cell separators with epoxy resin and it will have around 1,5cm per cell so the cells will be electrically isolated because each separator will have a very small water input and hydrogen and oxygen separated outputs... i think is the most safe way to go towards this ionisation steps

the cells will have maybe 200cm2 of are each and i plan to make 15 of it at least to start with and test my design

the membrane will not cover the frame totally like in the case of the video.. i will leave a part where gases can form little pressure without mixing up so the membrane may have a smaller cm2 area

i think its going to give a decent output with potassium hydroxide.. so i will need to buy some nitrilic orings to survive with the cell

the epoxy should go well and also silicone tubings

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##### Re: the mean free path
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2019, 17:02:26 pm »
Lets talk about math

if we have an electrode set with 1,5mm space it does not mean that it will take all this space to accelerate ions

ions will collide with other particles in the way so to know how much field a ion can receive before collide is needed to know the pressure of the chamber

at STP there is 2.7 × 10ˆ19 molecules per cm3 forming a 68nm mean free path

this mean that if we apply 1kv/mm =1MV/m of electric field the ions will only be accelerated thru a voltage difference of 68mv so it would have 68mili ev if it was a free electron but as it has a mass the energy may differ right?

so what is the maximum collision energy applying this field at STP for oxygen atom?

if we lower to a lower vacuum the MFP can be increased up to 1000 times down to 1 milibar...

i think to get it working first we need little bit more of voltage than bit of vacuum

first the diatomic molecules when get ionised strongly will double or more in volume since we will be breaking diatomic bonds in oxygen... so monoatomic will double the volume and more its going to get hot i guess..

stan explain electron entrapment as the free electrons forming negative ions mixed with the positive ions

but my understanding says that he may have used a manner to bring the electrons he was taking from oxygen and placing somewhere like the exhaust gas to bring away from the engine...

and or he ionizes the hydrogen gas negatively forming also monoatomic hydrogen making a lot of sense at this point

if we try to add electrons to the hydrogen atom it may not be able to accept it since a hydrogen atom has only 1 proton so it share the electron with the other hydrogen atoms very happy

if we add an electron it will form H2- ions at most i guess.

according to stan theory that there must be missing electrons for the decay to occur it don't appear to me that the excess electrons go to hydrogen, instead i think the same processing oxygen needs hydrogen may need it too so he may have got rid of the electrons by a ground mean or by electrification of the exhaust gas as this would allow for the balance of the voltage...

otherwise is like trying to take the water out of a boat with a hole with a small cup and yet throwing the water back into the boat

there is a limit of how much charge we can get out of an object and it will be related to the voltage it can hold... like a van de graff generator ... there is charge there but if you blow air thru it it will discharge

What if he used lighting in his cell.
Low voltage for basic electrolysis and high voltage for ionizing the gas...
Stephen and his father spoke about it. They seen the Stanley cell. They heard the discharges in the tubes....
Its like thunder and lightning.

Think about what Herman Anderson said about his system. 70kV spark on the anode. Kathode and anode are just 3 cm separated from each other.
What do you think will happen when you add a spark that big to a cell with hydrogen and oxygen gasses?
Exactly. The spark repeats itself IN the cell.
It will go strait thru it
I seen it
And i will repeat is soon again.
As long everything is under water, its fine.
Hydrogen is HIGHLY conductive as well as o2.

Just think about it. The Vic. Was the diode not 600V rated?
So, pulse 600V in there and you will see low voltage on the cell. Then the other coils discharge.
I tell you. The goal is to create lighting (sparks) in the waterbath between the electrode.
Thats what Stan draw. A resonating tube set. Wave guides...

i think his cell indeed had high voltage and high current at same time somehow..

have you ever tried to run a dc motor in parallel with the cell?

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##### Cell separator simplified drawing
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2019, 17:23:43 pm »
This is what im doing

My plates are 15cm x 20cm 2mm thick

i got 3x 3mm wood plates cut the same size to make the design very simple and take the molds of it ... i will cut the 3 layers like i want glue them together add the inputs outputs and alligning points and make the mold

i already had silicon resin for the molds and i got today another 5kg of epoxy resin for this projects.. 280 reais gone for it but will be needed...

im going to use that epoxy hard glue to make the details this was cheap... like outputs and inputs, also aligning points im going to make a video tomorrow doing it...

now i still need to find some nylon membrane that will work,,, thinking about using very thin silk screen mesh
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:10:06 am by sebosfato »

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##### Re: the mean free path
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2019, 13:15:04 pm »
Lets talk about math

if we have an electrode set with 1,5mm space it does not mean that it will take all this space to accelerate ions

ions will collide with other particles in the way so to know how much field a ion can receive before collide is needed to know the pressure of the chamber

at STP there is 2.7 × 10ˆ19 molecules per cm3 forming a 68nm mean free path

this mean that if we apply 1kv/mm =1MV/m of electric field the ions will only be accelerated thru a voltage difference of 68mv so it would have 68mili ev if it was a free electron but as it has a mass the energy may differ right?

so what is the maximum collision energy applying this field at STP for oxygen atom?

if we lower to a lower vacuum the MFP can be increased up to 1000 times down to 1 milibar...

i think to get it working first we need little bit more of voltage than bit of vacuum

first the diatomic molecules when get ionised strongly will double or more in volume since we will be breaking diatomic bonds in oxygen... so monoatomic will double the volume and more its going to get hot i guess..

stan explain electron entrapment as the free electrons forming negative ions mixed with the positive ions

but my understanding says that he may have used a manner to bring the electrons he was taking from oxygen and placing somewhere like the exhaust gas to bring away from the engine...

and or he ionizes the hydrogen gas negatively forming also monoatomic hydrogen making a lot of sense at this point

if we try to add electrons to the hydrogen atom it may not be able to accept it since a hydrogen atom has only 1 proton so it share the electron with the other hydrogen atoms very happy

if we add an electron it will form H2- ions at most i guess.

according to stan theory that there must be missing electrons for the decay to occur it don't appear to me that the excess electrons go to hydrogen, instead i think the same processing oxygen needs hydrogen may need it too so he may have got rid of the electrons by a ground mean or by electrification of the exhaust gas as this would allow for the balance of the voltage...

otherwise is like trying to take the water out of a boat with a hole with a small cup and yet throwing the water back into the boat

there is a limit of how much charge we can get out of an object and it will be related to the voltage it can hold... like a van de graff generator ... there is charge there but if you blow air thru it it will discharge

What if he used lighting in his cell.
Low voltage for basic electrolysis and high voltage for ionizing the gas...
Stephen and his father spoke about it. They seen the Stanley cell. They heard the discharges in the tubes....
Its like thunder and lightning.

Think about what Herman Anderson said about his system. 70kV spark on the anode. Kathode and anode are just 3 cm separated from each other.
What do you think will happen when you add a spark that big to a cell with hydrogen and oxygen gasses?
Exactly. The spark repeats itself IN the cell.
It will go strait thru it
I seen it
And i will repeat is soon again.
As long everything is under water, its fine.
Hydrogen is HIGHLY conductive as well as o2.

Just think about it. The Vic. Was the diode not 600V rated?
So, pulse 600V in there and you will see low voltage on the cell. Then the other coils discharge.
I tell you. The goal is to create lighting (sparks) in the waterbath between the electrode.
Thats what Stan draw. A resonating tube set. Wave guides...

i think his cell indeed had high voltage and high current at same time somehow..

have you ever tried to run a dc motor in parallel with the cell?

no, i havent