Author Topic: About CEMF/BEMF spikes  (Read 9074 times)

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usuryfree

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 05:16:56 am »
stevie1001,
thanks for the welcome.  i hope to contribute to this endeavor...
BTW, if i am coming across as pedantic - please excuse me - i don't know anything; just trying to catch up quickly...

I cannot say i followed along with all that you said 100%.  not even 50%.  I think your background in elec is getting me lost in translation or we're coming from 2 different angles...


I know there are 2 different schematics of the VIC, and i know what stages during Stan's development they come from.  However, my take on this difference is this:  As he was inventing, he first had something crude (which still unexplained worked).  The second form of the VIC is my focus, not the first.  To this, i believe the WFC "water splitter" (the fuel/spark injector) was just one of about 6-8 different inentions Stan had for the underlying tech.  Either way... to move on to a fuel/spark injector, he had to miniturize his original phenomenon with the VIC.  In doing so, i believe he "bettered" the VIC into the 2nd form we see in the drawings (the square air core) and the spherical "modules" of the overall apparatus.  "Bettered" may read [turned to solid state] or [restricted amps another way] or who knows.  however, i believe he did it - and i believe he must have had a progression.


I would also like to impress that i do not believe in the chokes (as placed/drawn).  Well, for these reasons:
1. the two distinct versions of the VIC, Stan drew the chokes differently in at least 4 schematics that i have uncovered.
2. (as Kevin West @ waterforfuel.com pointed out) Stan used various methods for restricting amps.  "Applying Delrin to the cells"  Delrin has a dielectric constant of 60Hz @ 73F / 50% RH.  [s.meyer delrin reference attached - pg. 3-11] - thanks for your research Kevin!
3. We all know that Volts and Amps are inverse relationship - if you have high volts (10K+ on the cell) don't you already have "restricted"  amps (at the point of view of the VIC)?  We've all heard from the vids that he was running 5V @ 2A, but in elec, you know that a point of view is just that; i've yet to hear or see a total consumption of his apparatus (and i do not believe a TV reporter would get it straight either).  I think this is a misnomer; not part of the blueprint...

In any event, the FBT (and i urge anyone who does not know about their properties to find out) was inspired by the tesla coil's underpinnings (as was the ignition coil, which is a FBT of sorts)).

I agree the VIC (in either form) is a step-up transformer.  and i believe by utilizing a FBT, it is not unlikely to see those kind of voltage gains while "restricting amps" automagically.  the FBT is unique in this regard and is derived directly from Tesla...


I keep coming across the schematic of the FBT in other "related" free-energy stuff.  for instance:   earth batteries and the Nathan Stubblefield (tesla alt ?) coil

(pertinent image is last schematic in post [also attached])
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg64215

others:
http://keelytech.com/stubblefield.html
http://www.powerlabs.org/flybackdriver.htm#FLYBACKS


http://www.angelfire.com/80s/sixmhz/flyback.html
this one is singled out b/c of the last schematic on the page... does this look like hydrocars' "Generator.jpeg" or a schematic of a Kelvin water dropper to anyone else?  I know it's a voltage multiplier, but is anyone else seening a pattern here?


PS - are the "chokes" really to restrict amps, or are they to eliminate unwanted freq at the supply?  - serious question; i don't know the answer...? ???  thought you might since you know about freq, etc...

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 14:11:48 pm »
Ok,

point by point:
1. chokes...in Stans circuits they can do 2 things. 1 = become magnetically charged and then discharging into a HV negative spike, or 2 = filter of some noices and spikes
The theory that fits by explanation nr 2 is that Stan was charging his wfc like a capacitor and the chokes were there to soften the raising voltage pulses of the circuit.

2. Nathan Stubblefields coils had to do with Scalar waves and not with tesla's longitudinal waves.
3. and yes, if you have 10Kv and 1ma, you have automatically reduced amps..

I hope that i didnt forget any questions.......

br
Steve


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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes aka IGNITION COIL
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2008, 22:37:59 pm »
Hi,

I found a good schematic of the auto ignitioncoil.
As you can see, it is actually 1 coil.

An ignition coil is essentially an autotransformer with a high ratio of secondary to primary windings. By "Autotransformer", I mean that the primary and secondary windings are not actually separated - they share a few of the windings.
The ratio of secondary to primary turns in an ignition coil is somewhere around 100:1. The ignition coil is operated directly off a 12 volt source. However, the ignition coil does not work like an ordinary transformer. An ordinary transformer will produce output current at the same time that input current is applied. An ignition coil actually does most of its work acting as an inductor. When the ignition coil is connected to the battery, the inductor is 'charged' with current. It takes a few milliseconds for the current to build up the magnetic field - this on account of reverse voltage caused by the increase in magnetic field. During this short charging period, maybe a thousand volts are produced at the high voltage terminal, not enough to actually cause a spark.

The actual spark is generated when the breaker contacts open.
For an ideal inductor, the current and voltage relate by:

V = L dI
Where V is voltage, L is inductance (in henrys) and dI is the rate of change of the current.


Thus, seeing that L is constant for the inductor, the abrupt change in current will cause a very large voltage to be produced. This produces a very short, very high voltage spike. Of course, the change in current is on the primary side, but because the primary and secondary coils have a large mutual inductance (this is where the transformer part comes in), you get a spike on the order of 100 or more volts on the primary, and 10000 volts on the secondary. Even the primary side of the coil can give you a bit of a jolt if you hold the wires wile disconnecting power. Also note that any contacts you will use will get a lot of sparks, also on account of this.
A less theoretical way of looking at it is that disconnecting the current source will cause the magnetic field in the coil to collapse (because nothing is forcing it magnetic anymore), and the rapid change of magnetic field in turn induces a large voltage in the windings.

In an engine with four or more cylinders, the high voltage terminal of the coil is connected to the distributor, which is just a fancy high voltage rotating switch, for selecting which of the spark plugs needs to be fired. This is much cheaper than having one ignition coil for each cylinder.

Modern cars of course all use electronic ignitions instead of the unreliable mechanical breaker points points for interrupting the current to the ignition coil. However, the ignition coil still works the same way, so you should be able to use an ignition coil even from a modern car. The main thing that has changed is that the 'points' have been replaced with fancy computer gadgetry and power electronics.

One thing that cars usually have that I didn't include in the circuit is a small capacitor across the breaker points, often called the "ignitor". This capacitor in cars before electronic ignition had a tendency to fail over time, so you may have heard people refer to it. The capacitor helps to protect the points by liming voltage across the contacts, so the contacts themselves won't spark. It also forms a bit of a resonant circuit with the coil, and that way enhances the spark, although it probably cuts down on the output voltage a little bit.


br
Steve

tester

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes aka IGNITION COIL
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2008, 07:03:50 am »
Hi,

I found a good schematic of the auto ignitioncoil.
As you can see, it is actually 1 coil.

An ignition coil is essentially an autotransformer with a high ratio of secondary to primary windings. By "Autotransformer", I mean that the primary and secondary windings are not actually separated - they share a few of the windings.
The ratio of secondary to primary turns in an ignition coil is somewhere around 100:1. The ignition coil is operated directly off a 12 volt source. However, the ignition coil does not work like an ordinary transformer. An ordinary transformer will produce output current at the same time that input current is applied. An ignition coil actually does most of its work acting as an inductor. When the ignition coil is connected to the battery, the inductor is 'charged' with current. It takes a few milliseconds for the current to build up the magnetic field - this on account of reverse voltage caused by the increase in magnetic field. During this short charging period, maybe a thousand volts are produced at the high voltage terminal, not enough to actually cause a spark.

The actual spark is generated when the breaker contacts open.
For an ideal inductor, the current and voltage relate by:

V = L dI
Where V is voltage, L is inductance (in henrys) and dI is the rate of change of the current.


Thus, seeing that L is constant for the inductor, the abrupt change in current will cause a very large voltage to be produced. This produces a very short, very high voltage spike. Of course, the change in current is on the primary side, but because the primary and secondary coils have a large mutual inductance (this is where the transformer part comes in), you get a spike on the order of 100 or more volts on the primary, and 10000 volts on the secondary. Even the primary side of the coil can give you a bit of a jolt if you hold the wires wile disconnecting power. Also note that any contacts you will use will get a lot of sparks, also on account of this.
A less theoretical way of looking at it is that disconnecting the current source will cause the magnetic field in the coil to collapse (because nothing is forcing it magnetic anymore), and the rapid change of magnetic field in turn induces a large voltage in the windings.

In an engine with four or more cylinders, the high voltage terminal of the coil is connected to the distributor, which is just a fancy high voltage rotating switch, for selecting which of the spark plugs needs to be fired. This is much cheaper than having one ignition coil for each cylinder.

Modern cars of course all use electronic ignitions instead of the unreliable mechanical breaker points points for interrupting the current to the ignition coil. However, the ignition coil still works the same way, so you should be able to use an ignition coil even from a modern car. The main thing that has changed is that the 'points' have been replaced with fancy computer gadgetry and power electronics.

One thing that cars usually have that I didn't include in the circuit is a small capacitor across the breaker points, often called the "ignitor". This capacitor in cars before electronic ignition had a tendency to fail over time, so you may have heard people refer to it. The capacitor helps to protect the points by liming voltage across the contacts, so the contacts themselves won't spark. It also forms a bit of a resonant circuit with the coil, and that way enhances the spark, although it probably cuts down on the output voltage a little bit.


br
Steve

Wow, you was looking into the auto ignition atleast a week before i stumbled upon it. Thats strange isn't it. 

When you said the back emf from the coil may not contain a high enough voltage to cause an arc, well it does! I'm glad to see that you stumbled upon this so much sooner than i.

Must be something in the air?

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes aka IGNITION COIL
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2008, 09:57:25 am »
Hi,

I found a good schematic of the auto ignitioncoil.
As you can see, it is actually 1 coil.

An ignition coil is essentially an autotransformer with a high ratio of secondary to primary windings. By "Autotransformer", I mean that the primary and secondary windings are not actually separated - they share a few of the windings.
The ratio of secondary to primary turns in an ignition coil is somewhere around 100:1. The ignition coil is operated directly off a 12 volt source. However, the ignition coil does not work like an ordinary transformer. An ordinary transformer will produce output current at the same time that input current is applied. An ignition coil actually does most of its work acting as an inductor. When the ignition coil is connected to the battery, the inductor is 'charged' with current. It takes a few milliseconds for the current to build up the magnetic field - this on account of reverse voltage caused by the increase in magnetic field. During this short charging period, maybe a thousand volts are produced at the high voltage terminal, not enough to actually cause a spark.

The actual spark is generated when the breaker contacts open.
For an ideal inductor, the current and voltage relate by:

V = L dI
Where V is voltage, L is inductance (in henrys) and dI is the rate of change of the current.


Thus, seeing that L is constant for the inductor, the abrupt change in current will cause a very large voltage to be produced. This produces a very short, very high voltage spike. Of course, the change in current is on the primary side, but because the primary and secondary coils have a large mutual inductance (this is where the transformer part comes in), you get a spike on the order of 100 or more volts on the primary, and 10000 volts on the secondary. Even the primary side of the coil can give you a bit of a jolt if you hold the wires wile disconnecting power. Also note that any contacts you will use will get a lot of sparks, also on account of this.
A less theoretical way of looking at it is that disconnecting the current source will cause the magnetic field in the coil to collapse (because nothing is forcing it magnetic anymore), and the rapid change of magnetic field in turn induces a large voltage in the windings.

In an engine with four or more cylinders, the high voltage terminal of the coil is connected to the distributor, which is just a fancy high voltage rotating switch, for selecting which of the spark plugs needs to be fired. This is much cheaper than having one ignition coil for each cylinder.

Modern cars of course all use electronic ignitions instead of the unreliable mechanical breaker points points for interrupting the current to the ignition coil. However, the ignition coil still works the same way, so you should be able to use an ignition coil even from a modern car. The main thing that has changed is that the 'points' have been replaced with fancy computer gadgetry and power electronics.

One thing that cars usually have that I didn't include in the circuit is a small capacitor across the breaker points, often called the "ignitor". This capacitor in cars before electronic ignition had a tendency to fail over time, so you may have heard people refer to it. The capacitor helps to protect the points by liming voltage across the contacts, so the contacts themselves won't spark. It also forms a bit of a resonant circuit with the coil, and that way enhances the spark, although it probably cuts down on the output voltage a little bit.


br
Steve

Wow, you was looking into the auto ignition atleast a week before i stumbled upon it. Thats strange isn't it. 

When you said the back emf from the coil may not contain a high enough voltage to cause an arc, well it does! I'm glad to see that you stumbled upon this so much sooner than i.

Must be something in the air?



That is not so strange it, brother Hydrocars.
We talk more with eachother then with our wifes, last years....:-)
So, our thoughts can go into the same directions.

I thank you for making the idea for exchanging the cap with the wfc.
You explained  that very good. I never thought on shorting the wfc first and then releasing the deadshort to get bemf blast into the wfc.

This is working together and open sourcing in 1.
Together we figure it out!

br
Steve

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2008, 16:25:51 pm »
Hi,

I found this doc which explains how we can use BEMF for better efficiency of our powersources.

br
Steve

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2008, 18:11:50 pm »
I see that he is pulsing the mosfet with an isolated pwm. If that is possible , it presents tantalising opportunities.

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Re: About CEMF/BEMF spikes
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2008, 23:57:48 pm »
Ok,

point by point:
1. chokes...in Stans circuits they can do 2 things. 1 = become magnetically charged and then discharging into a HV negative spike, or 2 = filter of some noices and spikes
The theory that fits by explanation nr 2 is that Stan was charging his wfc like a capacitor and the chokes were there to soften the raising voltage pulses of the circuit.

2. Nathan Stubblefields coils had to do with Scalar waves and not with tesla's longitudinal waves.
3. and yes, if you have 10Kv and 1ma, you have automatically reduced amps..

I hope that i didnt forget any questions.......

br
Steve



I disagree , Longitudinal and scalar are the same , it has a varitety of usage from cold explosion waponry  to healing purposes to telecommunications , the russians use this for telecommunications .

There is absolutely zero info about stubblefield coils , but it appears that it was made with a mix of iron and copper wire... or copper wire with bismuth ...


http://magnetism.otc.co.nz/vortex_cu.htm

Under the bold letter POWER COUPLING you will find this quote

Another method I may suggest, use iron wire next to copper wire in perfectly balanced coils like a Stubblefield cell.
We know that each one will couple at a different level to the scalar field and between them we may produce an effect particularly if we set up a magnetic field between them. A coil with one side copper and one side iron, may give a more immediate result.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 03:34:30 am by dankie »